Aaargh again!

[saracat]

Some Dean people make me crazy! They twist everything into an insanity! They are now praising Dean for media avoidance. They say he is deliberately punishing NPR and CBS for wanting to run(CBS) the "Dean Scream" .NPR ran a long interview with Melman regarding SS and they say how wonderful it is and what good stratedy it is for Dean NOT to counter. I said this is stupid, and I don't think Dean is doing any such thing .He is not stupid.
I can't believe Dean would let his ego get in the way of getting his message out and I can't believe he would deliberately discriminate against the two broadcasters that have cut us half a break. And give time to Fox and CNN.Please.
In this country, If it isn't on TV, it didn't happen, yet they are claiming he is going "direct" to the people. What people? Us. We already agree. If he doesn't use media , no one else will know about the meeting! Dean wants 'converts" not "groupies" And they point out he "draws' better than Bush. That is because Bush only lets in people who are vetted and agree. We let in everyone! Sheesh.
This kind of thing makes us look so stupid. Grrrr. I just had to vent.It is one thing if they look stupid themselves but they want Dean and the rest of us to look stupid as well!

[TayTay]

1. I saw that

Don't you see. If nobody hears Dem arguments or sees Dem faces, then how can they possibly hate us.

I just heard on the radio this morning how scientists are figuring out how to make objects invisible by deflecting light. If it worked for Dean, then.....

[whometense]

2. Just maybe Dean isn't ready to go

public yet?

Of course, it would never occur to the froth-at-the-mouth lefty freepers that he might want to take a little time to, say, strategize...

I'm definitely not one of Dean's biggest fans, but I'm willing to wait and see what he comes up with. I highly doubt punishing the media is going to be high on his to-do list. Just serves to reinforce how very poorly these fanatics understand who Dean actually is.

[saracat]

3. Exactly my point!

[Pirate Smile]

4. I think the big point Dean heard from Democratic politicians is that

they still wanted to be the party spokespeople. They don't want him to "take over" that role.

I think he is trying to stay in the background a bit because of this. It seems perfectly understandable to me.

[whometense]

5. funny that

we don't seem to have any trouble understanding that. Hmmm...

[saracat]

6. Nah. I think he is just being careful. And he has been on media.

I think these loons are making stupid crap up about time contraints . They are out to lunch. Thank goodness Dean isn't as dememted as they are.They don't have the faintest idea what kind of job Chair is, and they don't realize that Dean represents all of us now, not just himself or them. But hey, they think he is a liberal so what can one expect? They are the cool aid drinkers of our party I guess. it is just a different flavor than the repukes!

[sandnsea]

7. The whole thing was distorted

If you go down in the thread, you see that NPR actually said they had invited Dean on for a later date. I don't think NPR meant that he had rejected being on this morning, although I can see how that could be misinterpreted.

I think the whole thread was much ado about nothing. I do recall something about Dean saying he would not appear on a program if they're going to play the scream during that program, and I think he's right about that. It's fair enough to draw the line somewhere.

I will be more interested to see the contortions in response to his pro-life statement, that's important. This NPR thing was just stupid and should have fallen into the category of "Dems don't let Dems bash Dems".

[marcologico]

8. They clarified today that he was invited and refused to be interviewed.

He also refused to speak to Mara Liasson, who went down to Mississippi to meet him. So Mehlman gets his SS message out and we get quotes from the Mississippi party chair. This isn't good.

[saracat]

9. Maybe I just gave him too much credit.

Lord, I hope not. I didn't think he was that egocentric. This is stupid. Sigh. Do the cool aid drinkers know something I don't?

[marcologico]

11. Nah. But politics is a funny game.

Given a choice between an easy lie and a painful truth, plenty of otherwise intelligent people go for the lie. Look at last November.

Unfortunately it's also a game of life or death which is what makes all this gullibility dangerous.

[sandnsea]

12. Okay

But honestly, you didn't know that when you made the post, did you? Dems don't let Dems bash Dems. At least not over stupid issues.

Besides, the Dem Party is pretty unclear on SS right now. We've got a couple people coming out with private account proposals. We've got others who want to put any money into just strengthening SS, as it is. I don't think we've got a clear strategy yet. So what's Dean supposed to say? Maybe that's why he didn't do the program. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on it.

His pro-life statement, on the other hand, is pretty clear and I am not at all happy with that.

You need to know you couldn't possibly hate Dean more than I do. And I mean Howard Dean, the man. But I just don't think it does any good to constantly stir up shit against him.

[marcologico]

13. Re first point: I knew it. They said it at the end of the first story:

"Republican party chairman Ken Mehlman spoke in his Washington office. We've also extended an invitation by the way to Democrat Howard Dean."

And today's story confirmed that they'd actually sent a reporter down to Mississippi who still couldn't get an interview with him.

Frankly I think Dean is a huge problem. He's not carrying water for Dems; he's running for president. It was obvious to me that that's why he wanted the job and I'm surprised he's getting a free pass to turn the DNC into his personal PAC.

p.s. I thought the squabble over Demzilla was a dead giveaway but nobody else seems to have picked up on that.

[saracat]

14. At the risk of being stupid, whats Demzilla?

[marcologico]

16. It's a contact list used by the DNC for fundraising and get-out-the-vote.

Just before stepping down, McAuliffe made it available to a couple of other Dem committees, and Dean had a coniption fit.

[karynnj]

17. Glad I wasn't the only one not to know

Google brings up articles to say that it's a large database (on voters ?) that the DNC built.

[sandnsea]

15. Nope

That sentence without later clarification does not mean Dean was invited on the program today at all. It could easily mean he would be on at a future date. When you posted that, you didn't have the later clarification. It was a flame bait thread and it does not help the party.

Opportunistic people always expose themselves.

Besides, I'd rather have Dean as President today than Bush. And I'm not worried about him in 2008. He won't win even if he does run. He'll have no choice but to go left again and there just aren't enough voters over there.

[marcologico]

19. I knew it. The reason is because I heard "we," not "we've."

I only figured out that he said "we've" by listening to the audio file a couple of times last night, and for all I know he did say "we" (in other words, used the past and not present perfect tense).

Anyway if you listen to the story it's pretty clear.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4517515

[saracat]

24. For anyone that cares, Dean did speak to NPR apparently!

Padraig18 (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-02-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message

47. Dean spoke to NPR in MS.


Here's the link:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=45...

'We stand at Rossa's grave

[marcologico]

25. "We're sorry, the page you requested is unavailable."

Anyway he didn't speak to either NPR reporter in the two Morning Edition stories I mentioned, and they both tried.

[saracat]

27. Yes, he did. Here.

Politics
Dean: Democrats Won't Give Up on South
by Mara Liasson

Morning Edition, March 2, 2005 · In his new role as chairman of the Democratic Party, Howard Dean has wasted no time hitting the road. He spoke Tuesday in Jackson, Miss., just one of many red states he has been visiting in an attempt to break the GOP's hold on the South.


Related NPR Stories
Feb. 14, 2005
A Model for Success in Dean's GOP Mirror Image?
Feb. 12, 2005
Democrats Turn to Dean for New Leadership





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[marcologico]

30. He spoke, but not to NPR. Listen to the story :)

[marcologico]

32. p.s. here's the link:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4519273

[marcologico]

22. You're right, Dean won't win in'08, which is the problem.

If he runs again, which he's already doing, he'll either bloody up the eventual nominee with fresh new attacks or get the nomination. Either way we get another four years of Jebster, Frist or Condi.

Sorry to break it to you. . . :cry:

[sandnsea]

23. Not necessarily

I don't think Dean is going to risk alienating the middle and so he's going to be more careful. As he is with social security which is still why I think he chose not to go on NPR today. At some point over the next two years, he will become the DNC insider and it will be critizing himself to launch the same kinds of attacks he did in 2003. Plus, his red/blue strategy isn't going to work because he doesn't get it anyway. We had it when we talked about honor, duty and integrity. Hard work, family and community. When Hillary and Dean fade out because they're not going to persuade rural people with a death bed conversion, it'll be the perfect time for Kerry to move back in with the real deal. The same John Kerry he's always been.

[marcologico]

26. Lotta hypotheticals, but as long as we're speculating. . .

Here's what I see happening:

If Dean keeps this up this game of campaigning for Dean (where are the candidates he's supposed to be helping, anyway?), congressional Dems will either wise up or just get fed up and kick him out, at which point he leaves the party, taking his loyal cadre with him, and runs as an Anderson type independent, guaranteeing another victory for BushCo.

Either way he's a huge problem.

[sandnsea]

28. Okay by me

Here's the deal. Let whatever is going to happen to Dean, happen to him from within the party structure. Let him implode on his own. Keep the factionalism at a minimum so they've got nobody to blame but Dean.

Those of us who want to hold on to our liberal values, build a sensible national and international security strategy, and truly fight for working people; don't have time for Dean spitting matches. We've got to find the wise path and figure out the words to use to bring the anti-neocons to our side.

If Dean can break down just a few Dem stereo-types, like we're all gun grabbers, that will be good. If he can get just a few poor people to think about economic opportunity and what the Constitution really means, instead of just the Bible, than that's a good thing.

We can take it from there, if we're ready. I want to be ready.

www.lightupthedarkness.org

[marcologico]

31. The party structure won't act until they hear from us

(that's why they gave up trying to block Dean in the first place) or until things get really ridiculous, like a big mudfight between Dean and congressional Dems, which should be lots of fun (for Fox and CNN).

I'd rather get the whole inevitable shooting match out of the way as soon as possible so as not to screw up '06 and '08.

[sandnsea]

33. yes they will

Not the DC structure, the ones who decided to try something new and put Dean in. They'll be the first to throw his ass back out if he can't deliver. This is a give him enough rope to hang himself time, while holding out for the possibility that he'll figure out how to build a bridge.

No matter what Howard did or didn't do today on NPR, it doesn't change the fact that we don't even have a united strategy on SS anyway. That's the problem right now, and I'd rather spend my energy convincing the leadership to fight for my FICA taxes than sabatoging Howard Dean.

[marcologico]

38. That's how I felt in December.

Like, "how nice, Dean is giving up his presidential ambitions to devote himself to party-building for four years."

Then I joined DU and noticed this mysterious network of campaign-like anti-Kerry internet activity, promoted by Deaniacs who of course deny any connection to Dean, and I realized that Dean has been campaigning all along and indirectly smearing Kerry during and after the general election.

That's when I realized that Dean is a problem.

[TayTay]

39. Wait and see

Reid, Pelosi and the others put a pretty good leash on Dean when he took over the Chairmanship. He had to promise not to try and do policy setting. The guy hasn't even been Chair for a whole month. I'll wait.

At least on DU and Kos, the Dean people are right out front. Although the funniest thread of the day on DU was the one where Dr. Dean said that pro-lifers are welcome in the Dem Big Tent and everyone acted as though that was the wisest thing ever said. (Hello! This big tall guy from MA, Senator, was a nominee of the party not so long ago brought the same damn thing up in Dec and he got dissed. Hello? Are you people on prozac now or what?)

[sandnsea]

55. I went through the primaries

at DU. I understand the "sense of urgency". I'm honestly not worried about Howard Dean. It's really a win win. If he pulls the Democratic Party together, that's a win. If he fails and shuts up the worst of the Deaniacs, it's still a win.

[LittleClarkie]

56. I don't think even that would do it for the worst of the Deaniacs

They'd just repeat what they said after the primaries: it's a conspiracy, the media worked against him, yadda yadda.

[sandnsea]

57. Not if we stay out of the way

Sure, there will always be a couple of die-hards. But I really think if we defend him against Republican attacks and don't start shit, they won't have much of that to go on if Dean fails. Which doesn't mean I'll support this pro-life sutff or anything like that, but that's not just Dean anyway.

[marcologico]

58. I think that's what they're counting on.

They basically want Dean in the WH so I don't think going along with the program is going to help. I see it as surrendering to bullies but then I'm probably a lot less charitable than most Kerry supporters.

[saracat]

18. I don't hate Dean. I just never thought he was the liberal his followers

thought he was. His enviornmental record was bad and there are a few other things that disturbed me. Kerry was the true liberal as far as I was concerned. I always said we had a liberal trying to pass himself off as a moderate(Kerry) and a moderate passing himself off as a liberal(Dean). What ever faults Dean has, I never thought of him as stupid and this is stupid!
I feel like an idiot because I didn't think he would do anything like this. I spent part of the morning defending his intelligence. Duh!

[whometense]

20. hmmm...

we should talk. I'd be so interested in hearing what you have to say. In private, of course.

I could not agree more with your statement that "Dems don't let Dems bash Dems."

[marcologico]

21. If Dems didn't let Dems bash Dems

DU wouldn't exist :)

[LittleClarkie]

34. What is it about Dean that gets your goat (almost said pet goat, lol)

Just curious.

I don't hate him, but then I'm not totally familiar with him. I do think he could have been himself and not a fake populist during the primary. His being the "anti-war" candidate was kinda bogus too considering he and Kerry were pretty close on the issue Most of the Dems were, actually, which is why it's nutso that we have that fight out on GD. NOBODY but Ralph was saying pull out now. (near as I could tell, anyway.)

[marcologico]

35. Mainly the fact that he's never stopped campaigning.

That included backstabbing Kerry during the general campaign using internet surrogates like KOS.

It's pretty obvious to me that he's still campaigning -- that is, after all, the purpose of PACs like DFA -- which explains this otherwise pointless tour he's on.

[marcologico]

36. Clarification: campaigning for Howard Dean for President in '08

starting at about the time he washed out of Iowa.

[TayTay]

37. Kos, yeah, they have given me headaches

But I also remember going on Kos the last two weeks of the election and seeing him put up main page items as to: What are you doing here in blogville? Get Out The Vote and go volunteer for Kerry.

I have been annoyed beyond endurance with Kos and his retro hatred of Kerry. But he is entitled to his opinion. It's his blog and I have many alternatives.

Kos suffers from 20/20 hindsight. As does every poster who has ever put up the world's most annoying non-logic argument of: But was the worst President in American History. Kerry should have beaten him going away. It should have been a blowout. I wish some of these people would try running for public office and then trying to deal with the shitstorms that follow. It is hard.

In the itty bitty world of town politics in which my husband operates, it is a killer. The real reason (besides the snowstorm) that I couldn't go to the Kennedy Library cremony for Sen. Kerry the other night was because my husband had a 3 hour budget meeting with school committe and selectmen in town. Much as I love the Senator and would have loved to have heard him speak (back me up here guys) I could not go. I had to hold down the fort here. It's what you sign on for when you do elected office. (I get the home front, for now. One more year and all kids will be gone, but I still had a sickie at home and a husband with obligations. Tough shit for me.) Hey, he had another 3 hour follow up last night. That's the way it goes. It's, ah, hard work. (Sorry, I'm venting over here.)

The Kos people and all the complainers in general don't understand the process and how hard it is. (And I have only expereinced it on this micro-level and it's damned hard.) I wish they would get beyond the 'any idiot could do this' stage. Cuz it's not that simple and educated people like that should know better.

[LittleClarkie]

48. Not to mention that we're so disconnected from the RW that...

we don't understand that some of these people actually think Bush might be the best president ever. Gak. But still. Plus Kerry's right. Even though the war was Bush's own doing, we don't switch Presidents mid-war as a rule. The fact that he came so close says something. I know at least one Conservative who says that's the ONLY reason he voted for Bush, and he hates that he felt he had to vote that way.

I'd like to see some of these folks survive against the smear. I think Kerry's doing pretty good right now considering what he's been through. What a tough bastard he is.

I swear some folks would rather see a dog and pony show. A grand show of angry opposition doesn't always get the job done, you know?

[elshiva]

51. Backstabbing? Dean? How?

By campaigning vigorously for him? Speaking for Kerry at rallies, going on TV... Pretty weird way to show it...

Also Kerry digs Deans. On Meet the Press he defended Dean as not too liberal to lead the party, saying he had a very conservative record as governor.

DFA has many purposes. (I am a DFAer.) DFA supported many progressive Democratic candidates all over America. It was not all about Dean. He was trying to use his power, fame, and money to get lesser known Dems elected with DFA which is great!
Dean and Kerry are very close politically. Please marcologico do not go setting up a false dichtomy between Deaniacs and Kerrycrats, please. That is why we go to this forum. DEAN AND KERRY ARE TOTAL BUDS!

[Pirate Smile]

40. I'm getting a real bad feeling about the way this forum may be

headed.

I'm hoping the oasis isn't being infected with the bad blood from the other forums.:(

[TayTay]

41. Kumbaya!

We need a kumbaya moment!

I love you people. You rock.

It's okay to have some disagreements over Dean. He is still a bit of a sore spot. But I will give him the benefit of the doubt and I hope to God with all my heart that he is successful. Because I want to kick some Rethug ass in '06.

So, everybody take five and relax. Kumbaya Pirate SMile, Sandnsea, Marcologico, Saracat. Kumbaya!

[marcologico]

43. okay here we go, "Someone's singin, lord, KUMBAYA... "

:)

[saracat]

53. Kumbaya! TayTay ! I personally am giving Dean a chance. I am reserving

judgement on him. Mind, I have a problem with his recent comments on choice , but I will wait and see.

[marcologico]

54. I'm going to try to do the same.

You guys are setting a good example!! :)

[marcologico]

42. Let's just say you heard it here first.

You can't paper over problems by ignoring them and there's a trainwreck coming.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :eyes:

[TayTay]

44. We shall see

But no one does it alone. There are a lot of eyes on all these people. Seriously, I have loved politics all my life, but I have never seen it so intense after an election. In a lot of ways, it's like the election never stopped. The same passions are out there (and not just in DU, I mean in the real world.)

Dean, Kerry, Clinton and everyone else in the Dem-iverse is being followed so closely. Maybe it's because Kerry is still a very active pol on the national stage, but it just seems so odd to not have a cooling off period. We just seem to go from one frying pan to another. That doesn't help with the healing and stuff.

[ginnyinWI]

46. In my opinion,

it is because of the war. People are dying every day. So we stay engaged. The world is not a safe place, and we Dems feel like we're on a runaway freight train being driven by a bunch of loonies.

Plus there were so many Americans who voted against this administration. We are still here and still mad, still wanting a change!

[TayTay]

47. Amen to that n/t

[saracat]

52. and Dennis and Graham!

But no one noticed. They actuallu voted against Iwar too, so I never understoodhow Dean got to be the anti-war candidate!

[GRLMGC]

10. Eek

I hope this is all a huge misunderstanding. As much as the media is a bastard, we still (unfortunately) need them to reach a wide audience. If this is an ego thing, we're fucked. I'm gonna try to stay positive though. :think good thoughts, think good thoughts:

[TayTay]

29. I think it's still too early

for this stuff. Dean does have to do interviews, but he also has to carry the burden of being 'Howard Dean, SuperDemocrat.' Dean has said that he wants to go to the Red States and work on grassroots problems. Sounds like a good idea to me. He is going to have to be almost constantly travelling and meeting and greeting the people at the local level.

There is a lot of work to do. A lot of the State Parties are either moribund or corrupt. (What the hell went on in Michigan anyway and what happened to $1mil of John Kerry's money anyway?)

To the best of my knowledge, Kerry has not offered to share his e-mail list with the Party. (He certainly referred to it at Terry McAuliffe's Farewell Party as his list, which is fine by me.) I am going to wait a bit longer on this before I make up my mind. I think that Dean is starting to learn where some of the 'bodies' are buried in the Dem Party and learning the magnitude of the task he has in front of him. I will give him time to figure out which way to go and how to proceed. (But hands off JK. I don't like the severe criticism as it it is unwarranted and harmful to the cause.)

[rox63]

45. Give Dean a chance

He's been in the job for all of 3 weeks. He's out on the road talking to the local Dems in the red states, which is something we should have been doing all along. Take a look at the DNC web site. It's looking mighty good, taking an aggressive stance against the Repugs. I honestly think Dean wants to change the party for the better. Sure, he'd like to be prez. But I don't think that's why he ran for DNC chair.

[LittleClarkie]

49. All we are saaaay-yinggg, is Give Dean A Chance...

Sorry. Had to.

[marcologico]

50. If I had a hammer, I'd hammer out justice, all over this world

But all I have is DU :cry: