More over the top nonsense at DKos

[TayTay]

Headline on the Rec List on Sat, July 18:

We caught traitor Blue Dogs on video: Mike Ross & others are public enemies

A couple of bloggers went to Capitol Hill and had confrontations with self-described House Blue Dog Dems over health care reform and the public option.

The result is the above headline. Seriously.

I want health care reform. I went through a lot of time this year sweating out whether or not I would have health care coverage. My daughter has been without coverage for 18 months. This issue matters to me.

But insulting the very people who you need to win over for the vote is not the way to do this. I am not inspired to call these people and lobby them. I am inspired to disassociate with nasty, unthinking people who place their own self-righteousness and purity above the actual work that needs to be done. Our elected officials are "traitors" and "public enemies"? We worry about right wing lunatic who are inspired to violence by overheated rhetoric on talk radio and on hate blogs and then turn around and use that kind of incendiary and thoughtless language? How senseless and pathetic is that.

We need health care reform. Somehow, I think the people who are doing this are making this job harder.

[ray of light]

1. Good point, Tay. I never considered it that way. I agree with you but

I also think that the bluedogs are corrupt and compassionateless and as evil/bad as the Republicans are. I do not believe you can be nice to win over someone like them to 'our side'. I do not believe they even care about the people who they represent. After all, there was a survey done of health care insurance issues in their states and their constituents needed it desperately!

While, I never considered it over the top or possibly violence inducing language, I can see where you would be able to do so. I think they're trying to encourage people to get up off their butts and call, but I see where you're coming from. I know I get very angry when I read what those bluedogs are doing.

My family has a huge stake in this, too. (All of us do.)

[TayTay]

3. But these are the duly elected representatives of the people in their district

If we have a problem with these people then primary them, file lawsuits against them or do other things that this democracy allows.

However, I find calling them "traitors" and "public enemies" to be arrogant and backwards.

Who gets to declare what makes a duly elected representative of the people a traitor? Where does this end? Is anyone who disagrees with the goals of alleged "progressives" a traitor?

I want nothing to do with the agenda of these people. Nothing. They have irrevocably lost me.

Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!

Some kill their love when they are young,
And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
The dead so soon grow cold.

Some love too little, some too long,
Some sell, and others buy;
Some do the deed with many tears,
And some without a sigh:
For each man kills the thing he loves,
Yet each man does not die.

Oscar Wilde -- http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Wilde/gaol/">The Ballad of Reading Goal

Long live citizen democracy. Unless the bastards vote for someone I don't like. Then, screw democracy it only enables traitors.

bastids. friggin bastids. They willingly enable so much damage.

[ray of light]

4. I think they fear that the reform has to happen NOW and next primary is too late.

Regarding your comment about losing you forever... Well, that would be bad and sad!

I think if you feel strongly about that language, you could post it in a comment to them--to ask them to tone down the rhetoric.

As far as me, my perspective, and my actions, what I will do is think about what they and you and even what I have all said. I will evaluate if I feel their comments have wrongfully inspired a meanness or hateful dialogue in myself or in my posts. And if I feel it's necessary, I will 'chill out' myself and work to regulate my own comments and dialogue better.

But I think it's fair to say that nyceve is a person who has inspired a lot of action at Kos and FDL. I think she may not realize that her rhetoric sounds sort of like the Republicans "If you're not with us, you're with them..." (Unpatriotic...)

And while you point out that the Bluedogs are duly elected people in Congress, in health care reform, they are actively fighting against what their constituents want.

[TayTay]

5. RoL, their tactics are awful and inexcusable

I think people like nyceve are doing more harm than good.

I think that their tactics turn people away from helping them.

And there is no consensus on what their constituents want. Depends on what day you poll them and how you word the question.

[ray of light]

8. I went back and re-read the diary and comments through your eyes.

There are 4 mentions of 'traitor' in the diary itself; 1 mention of thug; 2 mentions of 'enemy'.

Now to cheer you up, there are a few people posting in the comments to nyceve that those words are over the top and should be reigned in. I'm only listing a few.

Semblence: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/34#c34

I love the hard work here, but the names....

I'm uncomfortable with the term 'traitor' and more uncomfortable with the term 'public enemies'. I'd prefer different terminology.

Nyceve to semblence:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/67#c67

Semblance, ordinarily I'd agree . . .

but, I tell you thins from my heart, this is war, people are dying.

We cannot be nice or polite any longer.

Please forgive me. I am a nice person, but not when it comes to this.

Greekesque:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/122#c122

We do have to ask ourselves: What if rightwing radio hosts used these terms?

Traitors, public enemies--we would take those words as incitement to violence.

These Congresscritters do deserve harsh scrutiny and criticism, but we should be very, very careful in how we express our outrage so that it does not become counterproductive.

nyceve to Greekesque:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/443#c443

No one, certainly not me, is advocating violence.

People are dying due to official indifference.

I am sorry but on this issue, I won't apologize or take it back.

And BTW, the diary and the title was vetted by seriously top level people. They all felt it was 100% appropriate.

God loves goats:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/220#c220

I saw the term "traitor" ...

used on some some right wing web sites to describe the cap and trade bill and those Republicans who voted for it. My first thought was "fringe"
I know it probably just me, but when I see the term "traitor", I think of someone who gives aid to a foreign enemy. When we use it to describe debates about internal policy, we kind of fall into a Godwin like territory where the terms used in the argument becomes part of the argument and dilutes the message.
Believe me nyceve, I love what you do here. You are unparalleled in your devotion to this cause. I quote you all the time. I don't believe this helps though. I'm sorry, but whenever I see "traitor" in any title of an essay on policy, my first thought is "fringe" and I have a hard time getting past the title.

Alan F:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/284#c284

My first thought is "Stalinist"

but "fringe" applies, too.

I agree. You're doing great work, but adopting outdated totalitarian rhetoric doesn't help your cause.

sgbean:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/18/10476/7251/58#c58

The tone: traitors, thugs, villains, and threats

Look, I'm pissed off that we've got people in our own party who aren't helping us pass crucially important legislation. I've been unemployed and uninsured since March 2nd, so believe me when I say that an agenda that's centered around jobs and health care is vitally important to me.

But isn't the tone in this diary exactly the sort of thing we typically call out the Freepers on?

Isn't calling our representatives "traitors" and "villains" the sort of hyperbole we've been decrying in right wing pundits, especially recently?

Be angry. Be livid, in fact. Shame them, indeed. Hound them with cameras and unending questions that they won't answer, and show those videos to their constituents. Call their offices as often as you can, and encourage others to do the same. But drop the vilifying.

They're wrong on issues, wrong for their constituents, and wrong for America. But they're not devils. They're not evil.

And last that I'm posting nyc to sgbean and back:

sgbean, once again, on this issue . . .

we must be harsh. This diary is meant to be harsh.

People are dying.

~~~


sgbean to nyceve...

There's a fine line between harsh and vilifying


and you're walking it.

"This issue is important, people are dying" is the exact same logic people like Glen Beck and Bill O'Reilly use to defend their screed. It's the same defense people vilifying abortion doctors use.

It's got no place in our discourse.

Anyways, my point in this is to say that it takes comments like you made, Tay or like these other people did to help people see a glimpse that the rhetoric has gotten as shameful as those we oppose.

I still think there are too many corrupt and compassionateless people in Congress, and I'm incapable of giving them any positive motivations to their actions; however, I can see where once you see people like you, semblance, greekesque, sgbean (etc) say that a line is being crossed, you can go through and look at the diary and comments through new eyes. You can see comments take on the same harsh tone. And you can see how even though nyceve isn't advocating violence, it does up the ante in the rhetoric and people become oblivious to that impact.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here. It opened my eyes. I think a few of my own comments could be close to that line, and one crossed it. (I had just watched the video with the Ross tuning out the questions and ignoring Stark.) So that means I will take this as a learning opportunity and I will be much more careful in the future.

[beachmom]

11. "Top level people", says NYCEVE. Some people now have themselves a career

and the goal of helping people is way down the list.

Geekesque is someone I like on DailyKos. We had an exchange a few weeks ago, and he said that he and I don't fit in at DailyKos, because we don't always toe the line of CW at that site.

[ray of light]

14. wow! I thought greekesque was a 'she'. (by name assumption. I've

never met him.)

Also, yeh. I debating bolding that line but figured it was there for people to catch on their own.

[ray of light]

2. Tay, I also have to say that there is an irony in your post today after the post at Kos yesterday

about hate crimes.

I surely hope that NYCeve's title wouldn't entice someone to cross that line into a hate induced violence. And the ironey is that after reading the post yesterday about the hate crime legislation, I emailed a friend and asked if only right-wingers were racist or so angry.

[TayTay]

16. I oppose it for that reason.

We have haters who, just this year, have already murdered a Doctor for political reasons and murdered a guard at the US Holocaust Museum for political reasons. It can be argued that both acts, as well as a host of others that promise violence against current office holders, are egged on by overheated rhetoric that talks about "traitors" and so forth.

Definition of a traitor: One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

(Def of treason: Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.)

Elected representatives who don't vote the way I would want them to are not traitors or public enemies. They are duly elected and sworn representatives of the people who are expressing alternative ways to get to a common goal. They have concerns about financing and carrying out sweeping reform of our health care system. Well, we want a vigorous debate about that kind of reform, don't we? Isn't that what a Congress does, hotly debate the pressing issues? That does not make them traitors or even bad Democrats or bad Reps. It means they have an alternative vision. Compromise, the lifeblood of democracy, is the solution to this.

Compromise is not a dirty or cowardly thing. Democracy cannot exist without it. It is how we reconcile differences of opinion that occur in politics. No one died and made me as a Massachusetts voter, for example, Queen of all Knowledge. I have a point of view and opinion that I hope is fact-based. But it is not all-knowing. I have to defend that idea in the court of public opinion against others. The people I argue with, for and among are not my enemies. They are honorable people who have a right to their opinions, same as I have to mine.

I have an on-going and deep-seated horror of what the Bush Administration did in the last 8 years in terms of allowing torture, ignoring national and international law and pursuing rogue and unlawful actions on the world stage. I have used the word "treason" to describe some of these actions, particularly on the part of the former Vice President. This was not accidentally chosen. That leader may have deliberately lied and sought to solicit lies (lie: knowing the truth and deliberately ignoring it in favor of falsehood) in order to take this nation to war. That war has resulted in the deaths of thousands of US soldiers and untold numbers of Iraqis and others. That is horrifying to the core. It is betrayal on a massive, Vietnam-like scale and is unforgivable. (There is a reason why treason is listed as a crime in the Constitution and is specifically spelled out as a crime worthy of the death penalty.)

I don't think a carefully reasoned argument listing cause as to why someone might have violated the US Constitution to cause the needless deaths of US soldiers is the same as disagreeing with someone over how to implement a legislative and policy reform. Using charged words like "traitor" and "public enemy" to indicate dissent in a legislative argument demeans the meaning of these words.

I was happy to see the challenges in the DKos diary that you posted. That is a healthy and good sign. We all want the best possible health reform plan, but this is a complicated debated with many, many moving parts. The bill that comes out of this is not going to be 100% acceptable to anyone. Compromises are going to be made. That is how legislation is done. (Name me a single piece of legislation that has not gone through the process and been changed by compromise.) President Obama and the Democratic Congress will not be traitors if they implement a bill with compromises in it, they will be good public servants who navigated a really rough course. That is how it is done. We then take the legislation passed and refine it with more rounds of legislation and compromise. That is the eternal struggle. (It never ends and is never finished.)

Thanks for taking the time to review this. I really appreciate the effort and the dialogue. As ever, I learned something here. That is why we log on and talk to intelligent people with informed view points. We share information and fill in the blank spots in our own knowledge. It is a beautiful thing, when it works.

[Inuca]

17. I could not agree more

This is the main reason I spend way less time on DU, Kos, etc. recently. This "if you are not 100% with me you are my enemy and I can call you any name in the book I want" is very distressing. It's no different than the exaggerations and insanity we see from the right. That's to a large extent what made sane and smart republicans to either leave, retire, etc. I don't think it's easy being Olympia Snowe nowadays, and she is not the in the barricades and in your face type, she does not seek the limelight. But I digress, as usual. I definitely do not see why holding strong opinions means that those who do not share them must be demonized. I also do not agree with strong, derogatory language being used carelessly (for instance there is thread around here about the bailout where those who voted for it are called... you guessed, traitors! No thought given that almost all dems + the sane republicans voted for it as far as I remember, that the list of traitors includes names like Kerry, OBAMA, Boxer, Waxman, Woolsey, etc., etc., etc. To the guillotine with the whole lot of them.

[ladym55]

6. I think people can get overly wound up and then say stupid stuff

I know people who are lobbying hard for single-payer health care, but they are very respectful ... no matter who the audience.

But it is very frustrating when I read about the huge sums of money from insurance companies and Big Pharma that are being funneled to the legislators. The legislators are responding to THEM rather than the needs of the constituents. The people I know who are lobbying for single-payer are focusing on grass roots action ... getting lots of people to contact their legislators, but let's put it this way, none of the lobby alerts I receive tell me to make sure my legislators know that I think they are traitors.

We need to remember to be respectful ... this issue is just too important to the people of this nation.

[sandnsea]

7. I agree with you completely

Lucky me. I live in a town where the Democrats don't support the Democratic president. They're all exactly like the one you posted and will only advocate for single payer. I think all that exists here are left wingers and rednecks. It's crazy. The worst thing seems to me to be that there isn't anybody setting the record straight on what the issues on the legislation actually are.

[MH1]

9. I agree that's over the top and makes the job harder

I haven't been very active in this debate - too much else on my plate at the moment - and I wish I was, but feel I would only be exceedingly frustrated. The picture I've gotten from my distant, distracted view is that there is idiocy and unworkable b.s. being proposed from both sides. I don't see sanity anywhere. It is very depressing.

Well I did see a glimmer of sanity this morning in a NYT article by Peter Singer (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?em ), but I haven't had time to read it all yet, so I might not like where he goes with it. But at least he gets a very simple and obvious premise correct. And I know it will go over like a lead balloon with those who can actually influence what monstrosity of legislation comes out of Congress.

[beachmom]

12. Cool, MH1!! You are supporting Sestak for Senate!!

I have been meaning to ask you what your take was on all of that. The primary is an uphill battle, but it certainly is pushing Spector left, always a good thing.

[MH1]

15. Oh yeah, Joe's the man. :)

I hope he wins because I really can't stand Specter and I think Joe will make a very good Senator. But it definitely will be a tough fight, with the Dem establishment apparently mostly backing Specter. (I sure hope JK will back Joe. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't.)

[beachmom]

10. Agreed. I was told to go back to my "tan lotion and sand" when I expressed

dissent on a health care thread. I can't stand the "leaders" of the liberal blog health care movement. In fact, I saw one of them at an airport, and specifically went and sat somewhere else, I so wanted to avoid this person. They are anti-social, angry, rude, haters. They are ideological extremists (for them they want the government to run it, and no alternative like the Dutch system, where it is all private BUT heavily regulated, will be considered). If health care reform fails, I will put them up there with the lobbyists in why. Sorry, that is how I feel. They are not "citizens" anymore. They have fed their egos and raised their profile for this issue now; they get something out of it by bitching and moaning. If it passes, wow, what are they going to do?

Sorry, rant over. I am sure I have offended some, but I just don't care. I want to get rid of "pre-conditions" and lower costs for health care (both out of pocket and in general). THAT is what I want.

[ray of light]

13. headlines here at DU--Obama locks and loads and

in the thread "He has a double barrelled shotgun"

I think those speak way louder than anything that was said on the original kos diary.

Skinner should edit those titles. They incite violence and credit it to Obama.