Percentage of Catholics in Mass. declines 14%. New England's religious plummetting.

[beachmom]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/09/number_of_ne_catholics_tumbles/

The Catholic population in New England, long the most Catholic region in the country, is plummeting, according to a large survey of religious affiliation in the United States.

The American Religious Identification Survey, a national study being released today by Trinity College in Hartford, finds that the Catholic population of New England fell by more than 1 million in the past two decades, even while the overall population of the region was growing. The study, based on 54,000 telephone interviews conducted last year, found that the six-state region is now 36 percent Catholic, down from 50 percent in 1990.

In Massachusetts, the decline is particularly striking - in 1990, Catholics made up a majority of the state, with 54 percent of the residents, but in 2008, the Catholic population was 39 percent. At the same time, the percentage of the state's residents who say they have no religious affiliation rose sharply, from 8 percent to 22 percent.

"It's quite an amazing change," said Barry A. Kosmin, one of the study's authors. He is the director of the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society & Culture, a research center at Trinity that was founded after two previous versions of the study, in 1990 and 2001, found a sharp increase in the number of Americans who say they are not religious.

I think Sen. Kerry should be aware of this, and will hopefully not have to pander as much to the Church as he has done in the past especially in regards to gay marriage.

I agree with Sully's analysis:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/03/the-church-coll.html

A region particularly hard-hit by the sex abuse scandal, whose criminal cardinal, Bernard Law, was rewarded with a sinecure in Rome, has reacted to the collapse of the hierarchy's moral authority in ways similar to Europe.

You can count me among the millions (I grew up in Conn. as an Irish Catholic) who have left the Church, never to return. But for me it wasn't just the priest sex abuses scandal. Sully names the trifecta that has turned many of us off from religion, seemingly permanently:

Islamist violence, Christianist intolerance and Catholic hierarchy hypocrisy.

Yes to all three.

[karynnj]

1. I don't think it was pandering

I think his answer to Cambridge Paul was very honest where he also spoke of upbringing being a factor. It also might be because he is Catholic -but that is not pandering to a voting block. I would guess that any Catholic likely to vote against him because of a more positive position on gay marriage would already be against him because of his stand on abortion. It would seem his 2004 position of civil unions with full federal rights was a position he thought both sides could converge on. His response to Paul said that law in MA has gone past that. Kerry also did publicly lend support to the people with a case to overturn DOMA.

For a Catholic of his generation, he has moved a huge distance from what he grew up with. He has not been a leader on this, but neither was Obama, who grew up a generation later and had a less socially conservative childhood.

[TayTay]

2. I think I may be the only person

who liked the Senator's response on abortion. I want it safe, legal and rare. I have accompanied women to get abortions and assisted in the financial end of that. (I do not repent of that, so technically speaking, I am in excommunication anyway.) I would be happy as could be if no one ever had reason to ever have to get one ever again. Prevention is the key. Abortion should be a very last step when all else fails. It is a traumatic event in someone's life. Hell, it was a traumatic event in my life and it didn't even happen to me.

[karynnj]

4. I liked his opinion on that as well

I actually think that many people liked if (if you mean the answer in the second debate). To me, he came across as the caring man he is - who has thought out why all the provisions exist - then was unwilling to pander on a few very politically charged votes. (partial birth that did not allow it for the health of the woman and voting against needing parental approval.)

[Luftmensch067]

5. I'm with you, Tay

Classic feminist upbringing, I stood outside the clinics in Boston and Brookline in my twenties, protecting those going in from protester harrassment, and when the duck boats drove by, we chanted "Welcome to Boston, we're pro-choice." I used to think the Choice was all and women should never be questioned in their decision. I still think that, but I also think they shouldn't have to make that terrible choice. So: safe, legal and rare for me, too.

I'm not Catholic and whatever I consider my faith (not very much practicing Jewish agnostic, spiritually broad-minded) does not prohibit abortion in any way. And yet I, too, have known people who've had to have abortions and it scars them forever, no matter how right the decision may have been for their lives. From them, I've learned that you never forget the baby that was inside you, that might have been.

I applaud JK for his support of women's choice and for his commitment to education and prevention. I truly believe that the moderates on this issue will eventually come together to overwhelm the fringe extremists, even though they will never entirely go away, and that we can improve women's health and education in this country.

[Mass]

13. I could not agree more. Abortion is something that we can hope all women can avoid.

but it is necessary to allow it for those women who are in situations where they cannot avoid it. It should be their choice and not the choice of other people.

[MBS]

6. I don't think he was pandering either

I think he takes his faith seriously (actually, I KNOW he does, as I've seen him at Mass once, in person, and, like all of us, have read or heard his comments on this subject; and his life choices speak for themselves). But, in addition to generational issues like gay marriage, he undoubtedly struggles (as any one of liberal conscience would) with how to remain loyal to the worthy parts of a religious heritage that currently is enduring a period of darkness, and also to remain true to his deeply felt , thoughtfully attained liberal moral values -- values which are true to the Vatican II church, but, to the current Church's, not Kerry's, shame, are often at odds with the prevailing Church politics of today. It's significant that his Boston parish seems to be the Paulist Center, which is a more open parish than many around Boston. I don't see that as pandering or compromise, but as the result of a real struggle of how to reconcile a Catholic-based, deep liberal conscience, with the frailties and deficiencies of an institutional Church that is not in a good place right now.
fyi, I'm with Tay Tay on the abortion thing.

[karynnj]

7. beautifully said

and it may well be the current state of the church that has driven people away. (I doubt those numbers can be explained by migation or death.)

[beachmom]

9. And what about divorce?

That is clearly against Church teachings. Thing is I don't have a problem with divorce when couples have tried everything to save their marriage, but well, the Church does have a problem with it, moreso than gay marriage.

[YvonneCa]

15. I am not Catholic, so my thoughts on this don't...

...come from that perspective. But while it probably is sometimes part of the job description for 'politicians' to pander at times...with 'nary a thought' as to their actual positions on an issue or situation...my guess is that John Kerry does that less than most.

My evidence on that was his Pepperdine speech on 'Faith and Politics', and more than that, the questions about his faith that he answered from students after the speech. Abortion DID come up, as did gay marriage, illegal immigration...ALL of which Kerry answered from a 'faith' point of view. The one thing he said that I am reminded of in this discussion (paraphrasing) is that as a Catholic...as a religious person...he would have a position on a given issue. BUT, his JOB was to make policy...and where there was conflict in doing his JOB, he had to make decisions based on law(maybe the Constitution) and not always on his personal belief.

I probably said that badly...sort of fuzzy :)...but I think it is an important point. He was VERY sincere. He had obviously given it all a LOT of thought. So I would have a hard time thinking he was pandering at all. I don't think regular panderers care very much..JK cared a LOT. JMHO.

[MBS]

17. that was also my impression when I heard that wonderful speech

and especially when I watched the Q and A that followed. Yup, very sincere, cares a lot, gives serious answers, and these qualities were especially evident in the video of the Pepperdine speech. It's what I most admire about him. Somehow he's spent all these years in this nasty, soul-breaking profession, lived through serious personal disappointments during his career in that profession,and then has endured the worst years of American political history -- and somehow the man is not a cynic. How does he manage to keep the faith, and the energy to keep working to make our country right? It continues to amaze me.

I think that part of the reason he gets so much @#$ is the fact that so many of us just can't get our minds around the fact that politicians like this can exist, and do exist.

[beachmom]

8. Let me put it to you this way: I HOPE it was pandering.

[Democrafty]

10. You would prefer to learn he was making insincere statements about his own faith?

Wow.

[beachmom]

11. Sigh.

Look guys. Explain to me how it is honorable to say gay marriage goes against one's faith (as in the Church's doctrine), while flagrantly blowing off other Church doctrine (like divorce, abortion)? John Kerry is and always will be a cafeteria Catholic. So I just can't take seriously his being against something which he HAD to be against when he ran for POTUS for purely political reasons. And for which, he had trouble KEEPING TRACK OF his position during the presidential campaign, asking Shrum, "So what is my position on marriage again?". When Kerry talks about Just Wars, Church doctrine, and the morality of the topic, I believe him. On gay marriage, I just don't. His positions have been tortured since 2004 when the MA Supreme Court made gay marriage legal in MA.

Am I the only one here who thinks all politicians are insincere at times, even our favorite politicians?

[fedupinBushcountry]

3. I'm one of those millions

Although, I will always consider myself a Catholic, I do not go to church anymore. My faith is in me, I don't need to have somebody tell me that it is. I also do not like those on TV who are Catholics and lie continuously and go against everything I was taught as a Catholic (Hannity, O'Lielly, etc.)they disgust me.

I think the biggest thing that has turned me off from religion is how so many believe everything that is told to them by preachers who I doubt even are really preachers but in it for the business, I just realized that is what it has become a business, the more they can get the more they can rip off and brainwash.

[Mass]

12. Kerry's position on gay marriage is often misunderstood. What he has said for years now, way before

others, is that he wants gay couples to have exactly the same rights than other couples, federal or statewise. This is why he opposed DOMA. This is why he is co-sponsor of most laws that support federal rights for same-sex couples, he is supporting the claim against DOMA and has taken publicly position on it and has rejected the attempt to reverse MA same sex marriage by a referendum.

In the same time, as many people of his generation, he has some strange reluctance to change the meaning of the word "marriage" to each couple. Don't ask me why, but it is like that. His daughters during the 2004 campaign said it was the case. Other people who know him well said the same thing.

It is probably a question of generation. My parents are like that. It may be difficult to understand for you who is younger , but I think it is honest and not bigoted (My parents are not catholics, but they have somehow a problem with it). I am not exactly sure whether it is a question of religion or just that they have trouble changing the meaning they put in the word.

As for the diminution of catholic people in MA, I am pretty sure senator Kerry is aware of that.

[Mass]

14. A general question, to all. Can somebody provide a quote where Kerry says

he is against gay marriage for religious reasons. I cannot remember him saying that, and it would make no sense as he supports civil unions (which are also against the catholic church beliefs, as is being gay).

I understood it as being more a "cultural" issue, where I see a lot of older people having trouble with changing the meaning of the word "marriage" to include two people of same sex. It was the general meaning of a lot of interviews I heard him give in MA just after the Mass SC decision, and all around.

I also got the feeling it was probably more of a pragmatic issue, where he was trying to give the same right to people, and changing the name would make it more difficult.

I do not know for sure, of course, and it is possible that at some point he has said something like that, but that has never been the general feeling (and it would be contradictory with his view on abortion, where he does not think he can impose his religion on other people).

[JI7]

16. i don't not believe Kerry has ever opposed same sex marriage

he always came off as uncomfortable when trying to talk about opposing same sex marriage. he has always been far more at ease when he talked about his support for gay rights. he has gone further than most others when he talks about gay people as people who deserve rights and love as human beings.

it would be nice if Kerry did at this time take the lead in supporting same sex marriage.