Unbe-farkin-lievable! Will it ever end?

[Vektor]

Now that Kerry has voted to support Bush's request to send money to the troops, the haters are in a frenzy that Kerry is a war-mongering Bush sycophant. I guess they'd rather see our guys over there with no armor, and Kerry left holding the bag again. I'm also supposing that all the people bitching on this thread have read the entire piece of legislation word for word, and have enough knowledge and understanding to tell Kerry how to vote, since he clearly, with 20 years of senatorial and foreign policy experience, has no idea.

JAY-ZUS.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1239598&mesg_id=1239705

[JI7]

1. well, Howard Dean is DNC Chair, is he going to speak out against

the spending bill ?

[Vektor]

2. I'm not sure...

We'll have to wait and see...

[TayTay]

3. I think this will pass with very, very little opposition

And even the Saintly Senator Boxer will probably vote for it. The liberally pure in this thread are knee-jerk anti anything even remotely related to the war. It is frustrating to reply in that thread because there is nothing to reply to, just variations of the 'Can you believe this,' type comments. (Content-free.)

We cannot just cut and run from Iraq. It is not that easy. And Kerry is not a 'sell-out' on this issue. And that bill does contain some good stuff, believe it or not. It contains the funding for a new Tsunami warning system and other things that are hard not to vote for, as well as funds for armoring the troops. Iraq is in a strategic place in the world. It's not just the oil, it's the whole volatility of the region.

The biggest problem with Iraq is that there are no good solutions. Senator Kerry has repeatedly said that he had 4 goals to aid in getting out. This is from the Meet The Press interview on 1/30/05:

The four steps were, number one, massive rapid training. Number two, you've got to do reconstruction, and you've got to get the services to the Iraqis. Number three, you've got to bring the international community in the effort. Number four, you've got to have the elections.

So far, all we have is 4. We have to do the other things or the Iraqi civil war will be worse and even more innocent blood will flow in the streets.

These people drive me crazy. They have no connection to the real world. We cannot just leave Iraq. (And there are no good solutions to the Iraq problem, the *ies have scewed it up so badly that all optins are painful and bad.) We will have to stay, in numbers that are slowly decreased, for a number of years and this has to be funded. Otherwise, we risk an even more deadly civil war and the death of even more innocents.

[ginnyinWI]

4. yeah,---what you said, taytay.

people who don't know any better think in black-and-white, until life happens to them and they (perhaps) learn that the world is full of shades of gray. ;)

[Vektor]

5. Tay-tay ruuuules!

Well said.

[TayTay]

8. Thank you

I will endeavor to only post 'think pieces' while under the influence of cold pills from now on. Apparently it does wonders for my reasoning abilities. (Who knew? TayTay on over-the-counter medication reasons better than normal TayTay. Well, that's humbling.)

Besides, I think John Kerry has taken enough crap about this. I really mean it. I am just annoyed with these people now. Leave my Senator alone. Go pick on your own no-doubt deficient Senators for awhile. He has voted in a liberally pure manner for the entire first month and a half of the 109th (weasel) Congress. What do they want from the poor man, blood? Sack cloth and ashes on the Rotunda Steps? Self-flagellation with organically grown cat-o-nine tails in Lafayette Park? What? Bah! Honestly, the Liberally Pure drive me crazy! There is no pleasing these people!

[whometense]

17. Excellent rant.

May I dare you to post it in GD while you're still under the influence of heavy medication?

Seriously, that's just what I keep wanting to say over there. Get OVER yourselves. Go pester your own damn senator, and leave mine alone. Especially those jackasses who suggest that Kerry ought to resign. I mean, WTF???

[TayTay]

22. I actually have problems with the IWR vote

And a great deal of sympathy for the Senator. Peruse the following from the PBS site and we'll talk.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/choice2004/kerry/iraq.html

Jonathan Winer
Former counsel to Senator Kerry.

…The vote for the resolution to go to war in Iraq -- did you ever discuss this with him?

A few times. … It was a very hard vote, because he could see the arguments, both directions, as to whether you vote yes or no on the resolution.

He would have preferred, like a lot of other people, the resolution that Joe Biden and Richard Lugar had come up with, which would have slowed the rush to war while putting the authority behind the president to get U.N. inspectors back in, to make sure Saddam Hussein couldn't use WMD. That was the point of the resolution.

The Bush administration wanted something more than that. They wanted something without any strings attached, so they could just go to war. John was comfortable with it. Democrats were not comfortable with that, because they didn't want Bush just going to war unilaterally. They felt that was risky. John definitely was unhappy with that, and expressed it.

He'd been boxed. The Bush administration had chosen to box him and all the other Senate Democrats. "You either vote with us, in which case, you're responsible for it, too -- and we're going to do whatever the heck we please -- or you vote against us, and allow Saddam Hussein to be not held accountable. The president's position will be weakened, the United States' authority will be weaker in dealing with the rest of the world, and you not having stood up for American strength." …

The vote was designed to be an impossible vote for someone like John Kerry. That's why the Bush administration insisted on making the vote that way. It's a vote either to support the president, or undermine the president as the president's trying to deal with weapons of mass destruction that may be in the hands of an evil dictator.

John Kerry was not going to vote to undermine the president when the president was being directed to go the U.N. Remember, President Bush didn't even want to go to the U.N. There was a question of even going back to the U.N. to get inspectors back in. So it was a way of pushing it in the right direction, and hoping that the Bush administration would then do the right thing.

You're not given the choice of being 100 percent on these issues. You're not given the choice of doing exactly the way you would want to do it, when you're a senator. … As a senator, you're often forced to vote between two very difficult propositions, neither of which may be attractive. This vote was designed to be as unattractive, ugly, unpleasant, difficult, horrible, and damaging as possible by the Bush administration for Democrats, and in particular, any Democrat running for president. That was the point. That was the intention. It was designed to be a wedge vote, separating a John Kerry, for instance, from his natural constituents. …

And it still is a wedge vote. It is still dividing Democrats and preventing Dems from getting together over reasonable opposition to the Iraq War and the way in which the Rethugs have done it. Sigh! I wish liberals would put some thought into their strategies sometimes and see that they are being played. This strategy is still working, still dividing Dems. Sigh!

[whometense]

29. How did you come across that page?

It is a great find.

Would you consider posting something about it in GD? I wonder if it might help some of the diehards finally understand Kerry's position. But then again, maybe it wouldn't.

I had trouble with the vote too. I wrote to him and asked him to vote against it, and was disappointed when he didn't. But I still am capable of understanding why he voted the way he did, and how complex his problem was. I think anyone of good faith who looked at the question objectively could say the same.

This Doug Brinkley quote from the same page is interesting:

The heart of John Kerry, I believe, was opposed to it when he voted for it. But I think he didn't want to be set up. He does not want to be set up by these games. ... He's very perceptive on the timing of politics. Nobody knows better the need to pace yourself in 2004 than John Kerry. That was something Howard Dean didn't know. He was new to it. Kerry always knew that it was a long race. And you pace yourself out. You don't burn yourself out with certitude, that you keep some ambiguity out there. Because you're going to need it down the road.

In any case, he was boxed, and the self-described dems who are still carping about that vote (which ultimately made no difference anyway), are playing out the script written for them by * and Rove. Congrats, guys.

[TayTay]

31. That's what makes it so hard for me

I know this was a kabuki dance that everybody had to play their part in. Say what you want about Rove, but the bastard knows his stuff, he knows how to construct the political box and get people to jump into it.

I guess my bottom line is that I really felt bad about that, I felt bad about it all last year and would tend to change the subject when it came up. (Duck! Bob and weave. Not my finest hour, to be sure.)

As to where did I find this stuff, well, I am a researcher by trade. I am paid to find things. It's what I do. And PBS has the absolute best, most complete archive of stuff on the net. They are amazing. I knew when they did 'The Choice' last year that only 15% of the stuff they accumulated would be on the screen. The rest of the stuff is on the web site. It's amazingly complete, enough to satisfy even my wonky heart.

Edit: and there is a typo in the transcript. The line in the 4th paragraph should obviously read: John was *uncomfortable* with it.

[sandnsea]

9. We could attack Bush

We could join together and support a responsible plan to get out, like Kerry has laid out. We could even support this SMART Security plan.

http://www.oregonpeaceworks.org/site/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=988&Itemid=82

But do we do anything positive? Oh hell no. Just bitch, whine and moan. They have already said they are now going to label us as the party of no, the party of the past. It's in that leaked memo that came out a month ago. And the left is going to help them if they don't start supporting solutions.

I am so damned frustrated!!!!

[karynnj]

25. Totally agree why waste energy fighting each other

As one who did not read DU until after the election, I am curious as to whether DU has always directed such fury at each Democratic Senator who votes for anything they dislike.

It also seems like they want the 2 parties to act as armed camps rather than working together in any way. Didn't they learn anything in high school civics class?

[WildEyedLiberal]

6. HE IS A TRATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

BUSHLITE DLC WHORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

HE'S NOT AS LIBERAL AS ME! I'D HAVE A SHOOTOUT WITH THE SECRET SERVICE AT THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!!1 KERRY WOULDN'T!!!!!111

</sarcasm>

[Vektor]

10. And a moran!!

That jackhole!
I am going to Lewinsky him until he collapses!
He deserves it!

[WildEyedLiberal]

12. YEAH WELL

I'm going to tie him up to my bedpost and do naughty, dirty, kinky things to him until he repents of his evil ways.

[Vektor]

15. That'll show him!

No mercy!

[muse]

20. And a tater and a crater and a

mater. A mater? That's a word isn't it? Raise your hand if you will volunteer to mate with the mater!

Settle down, ladies. One at a time.

[sandnsea]

7. Same ones who said

During the campaign that Kerry made a mistake voting against the $87 billion, no doubt. Between his call for an increase in the military and this vote, I knew they were going to do this. Tried to head it off yesterday. But it didn't work. *sigh*

[Blue_In_AK]

11. I'm glad to see you picked up on this, Vektor

I came running back here, too, after reading some of that stuff out there. Seems like the hating never stops.

[New Earth]

13. i'm not even to going click on that link

i am not reading that thread. nope. not gonna do it. sorry, i like DU and i dont' want to get myself banned :D

[TayTay]

14. I agree with you Faye

No good thing will come of it. These are the unreasonable ones. There is not talking to them. They are firmly wrapped up in their own moral purity. The real world is not welcome there.

[JohnKleeb]

23. You and me both

Fucking assholes.

[Blaukraut]

16. sorry bunch

They don't even read past the headline most of the time, but can't wait to hop piss into the thread with their one line comments.
"Kerry is a republicrat, Kerry won't get the nomination in 08, skull and bones, I'll vote 3rd party, Kerry flip flops, he's an opportunist....." ad nauseam.

Now, my memory is very good, and I recognize most of these people from way back when and this is their modus operandum.
Some are former Naderites and have been knee-jerking since DU's inception, others are die-hard and bitter Dean supporters (and, strangely, used to be Naderites), and a lot of them seem to have crawled back out from under the rocks they disappeared to after Kerry got the nomination.

Trust me; they know every one of our arguments, because they've read them countless times. Still they will continue to post their same crap over and over again. Why? To disrupt. It's that simple.
So take blm's advice and alert, but don't waste your fingertips arguing with them. It will get you nowhere.

[paulk]

18. Well, I made it about a third of the way down the thread

till I got to the post about how Kerry was Bush with a Democrat face....

that was enough.


I did alert it though - the last few days I've done more alerts than posts. The mods are probably sick of me.

But, really - why is it acceptable to say things like that here on DU?

[elshiva]

19. Oh, for goodness sakes,

of course Kerry voted for more money for the troops! Didn't anyone listen to the debates and how worried he was about them not getting the equipment? SHeesh! If he hadn't have voted for the thing the RW would be all over him about the debates and him flip-flopping. Catch-22.

[ginnyinWI]

21. well I think he voted his concience, primarily

During the debates we could hear the passion in his voice whenever he would get on the subject of the troops not having enough equipment and being managed poorly by the Sec Defense. Too bad so many billions have disappeared down a rathole over there because of sticky fingers in the till.

Values--he did speak about values! This was one of them--loyalty to the soldiers you put in harm's way.

[JohnKleeb]

24. Oh goddamn those assholes to hell

They were waiting for Kerry vote disagreeably with them, I just know it.

[JI7]

26. they are the same ones if he did something they agreed with

they would respond with things like "too little too late" .

[JohnKleeb]

27. Damned if you do, Damned if you dont

:shrug: those guys are fucktards, scuse my language but they will turn on you for anything. Kerry better not push for more gun control because they'll hate him for that too, another thing that drives me crazy is how many of them want to embrace the republican view on guns, sigh, speaking as the nephew of a suicide by gun victim, sorry but NO!

[JI7]

28. i agree, he should just do what he has been on the issue

and support it while showing those gun control laws he supports doesn't hurt people like hunters as Kerry himself is a hunter.

i'm sorry about your relative. how old were you when it happened ?

[JohnKleeb]

30. I agree

I was 14, it was 6 months after my godmother died of Leukemia, right around xmas time. I remember exactly what I was doing when I found out, me and my younger brother were playing Grand Theft Auto III and were at a really hard part, my mom gets a phone call, and then starts crying. Shame really, he was a good guy. Another alcoholic in a long line of them, but he wasnt related to me directly, he was my aunt's husband.