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Ok, I'm a liberal, (supposedly,) and anti-war.

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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 01:11 AM
Original message
Ok, I'm a liberal, (supposedly,) and anti-war.
So why the hell am I drooling about this? :-)

http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Looks like Zog's weapon from "The Fifth Element"
I'd suggest seeking professional counseling, but that's just me.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well you've been programmed to
from the moment you were born.
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naryaquid Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. why might that be?...please don't say it's because he's an american..
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nine23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 01:24 AM
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3. You're, umm...drooling?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 05:04 PM
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5. because it's cool?
"So why the hell am I drooling about this? :-)"

The human mind is a bit of a complicated thing. Just because we have ceratin aspirational values does not mean we do not also have base instincts.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am anti-war ...
And own weapons with no value other than the "fun factor"
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. I can find nothing bad about this weapon
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 12:41 AM by happyslug
And that Scares me. Soldiers will often see the bad points of a new weapon over an old weapon and point them out. For example I remember my father telling me stories of why he hated the switch from the WWII British Style helmet to the WWII M1 helmet, when he was on Guard Duty with the WWI helmet the rain dripped off the brim and onto his raincoat, with the M1 helmet it drained right down his neck (The WWII ponchos did NOT have a hood so many soldiers did not use them, using their Rain Coats instead). I saw the same thing in the early 1980s, the soldiers complaining that the New Fritz helmets could not be taken apart like the M1 (The M1 was a two part helmet, a Fiberglass inner core with a steel outer core, you could remove the Steel Outer core and use it to haul water in for cleaning, shaving cooking etc).

I have NOT seen any stories like the above regarding the XM-29. That tells me that the fix is in and all negative stories will be suppressed. Now remember all weapons are compromises, often the "Good" is the "Bad". For example the M1 covered the head better and gave better protection but did not have a brim to keep the rain off. Was the M1 better than the WWI helmet YES, but you did have an disadvantages when it came to rain. The same when the Fritz replaced the M1, you could no longer use your helmet to haul water. Was the Fritz better than the M1. yes, but you can not haul water in it like you could with the old M1 helmet.

Getting away from helmets when the the Assault Rifles replaced the Bolt action rifle do to the Assault Rifles superior fire power compared to the bolt action rifles, people pointed out that the superior Fire power came as the cost of reliability, range, and excess expenditures of ammunition.

Given that any change includes bad as while as good I expected to see some sort of bad stories about the XM-29 (Like what I mention below) but I can find nothing and that scares me for it means only one thing, only positive stories of this weapon can be aired thus you might end up with a weapon NOT suitable for our troops in the type of Combat the troops will be in over the next 20 years.

So what is good about the XM-29? It has a 6 round magazine for its 20mm rounds. It has an electronic range finder and sight (Just pull the trigger a little bit and the laser range finder determines the range and changes the scope to be dead on at that range so it is a point and shoot weapon, much more than any weapon made before it). The range finder also sets the 20mm round to explode at any target determined by the Shooter (by the Shooter pointing and aiming the weapon, the laser range finder determines the range and set the fuse on the grenade to explode at that range). If everything goes right you have increase effective firepower.

What bad? First the Six 20mm rounds are designed for use against target currently hit by the 40mm M203 Grenade launcher. The 20mm can do air-burst which is much more effective than the ground burst of the 40mm Grenade. H&k says they can produce the 20mm round at the same cost as the 40mm round but given its electronics (and the electronics ability to withstand the launching from the weapon) I have my doubts, but lets look at the CONCEPT of this weapon:

1. The range finder/ Range Setter is all electronics. I have my problem with any weapons that relies on batteries. No Battery, the advance portions of this weapon no longer exists and a 20mm ground burst is a lot less effective than a 40mm ground burst.

2, A 10 inch 5.56mm Barrel??? The 5.56x45 mm round was design for a 20 inch barrel, so you are cutting the barrel length in HALF. Why even bother keeping the 5.56mm capability? I know the existing M-203 fits on a standard 20 inch barrel M-16 thus if you replace the M-203 you lose a M-16 to a squad except for this 10 inch joke. I can see a firefight in the woods, the grenadier has hi M29 shooting but his 5.56mm rounds are ineffective, he tries his 20mm Grenades but has no idea where the enemy is, he is just returning fire to save his life. The 20mm Grenades are launched and hit trees (no effect on the enemy) or undershoots or over shoots the enemy (whose positions are concealed as any good soldier does).

In most firefights it is RARE to know exactly where is the enemy and almost impossible to know (and if you do know you call in artillery on them). In combat you need to get out the most effective fire you can to silence the enemy and than maneuver. In build up, Forested, or Jungle this weapon will be worse than the M-16 M-203 combination it is replacing. In the more open areas where this weapon will be more effective than the M-16/M-203 combination the infantrymen has access to higher echelon weapons i.e. machine Guns, 40mm Automatic Grenade launchers, Mortars, Artillery etc.

3. At present this weapon weighs 19 pounds empty, H&K claims it will weigh 14 pounds EMPTY by the time it is fielded (Between its 5.56 and 20mm ammunition it will weigh over 20 pounds). That is a lot of weight to carry in one's arms all day. Generally men (and most infantry are men) can carry 10 pounds without complaint but if you start getting over that weight you start to see fatigue in the men carrying the weapon. This was one of the reason when the Bolt Action Rifles was replaced it tended to be replaced by assault rifles instead of full Power Rifles (Through many countries did try to follow the lead of the US with its M1 and M14 rifles in that regard, see the FN FAL and H&K G3 for examples of that types of rifle, bolt action rifles tended to be under ten pounds, these Semi-automatic full power cartridges weapons tend to be 12-14 pounds). Even the Legendary M1918 BAR was under 14 pounds EMPTY (20 pounds fully loaded, and its weight was the chief reason that the US only issued one per Squad till Korea).


I see the US fielding this weapon, for the same reason other countries will field such weapons, everyone is looking for an advantage AND if the weapon is adopted every officer tied in with it will get promoted. I just do not think it will be that much of an improvement over the M-16/M-203 Combination in use today IN THE COMBAT WE CAN EXPECT OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS (i.e. more like what is going on in Iraq NOT Desert Storm or the first weeks of this war). This is a great Weapon to fight off the Red Army as it invades West Germany, terrible weapon as you fight in a Built up Urban Area forested areas or jungle against insurgents operating among civilians.

Mauser Bolt Action Rifle:
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl02-e.htm

US M1918 BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle):
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg36-e.htm

XM-29:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm

M-16/M-203:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm

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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. And despite it all...
one shot with a century old bolt action rifle will still kill the soldier carrying it.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yup. Even Duke Nukem gets killed with some regularity.
Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 08:01 PM by bemildred
:thumbsup:
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