Dear Abby's Atheist Advice

[Book Lover]

From today's (5/27/05) column:

DEAR ABBY: Is it OK for an atheist not to participate in the saying of "grace" before a meal while dining with those who do? I ask because I am a non-believer and, frankly, I'm uncomfortable participating in prayer. On the other hand, I respect other people's beliefs, and I don't want to offend anyone. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. -- NON-BELIEVER IN NEW JERSEY

DEAR NON-BELIEVER: If you do not wish to say grace, bow your head respectfully while your companions do, and say "Amen" when they are finished. There is no rule of etiquette that demands you say the prayer.


What advice would you all give? As for myself, I say that the saying of "Amen" is part of the prayer and should not be said lest you give the impression you are also praying. Nor would I bow my head - also gives a misleading impression.

[trotsky]

1. Someone posted this in the Lounge, too.

I don't think a non-believer should even say "Amen." Respect is a two-way street, and if they are disrespecting my (lack of) beliefs by having the prayer, I think it's outrageous that I be expected to respect theirs, even with a single magic word.

As Zenlightened suggested on that thread, keep your head up and look for others doing the same. Might just find a new freethinking friend. :)

[Book Lover]

8. Yeah, I didn't see the Lounge thread

Posted this and ran this morning - been a hell of a day. I read through the Lounge post this morning; I guess I should stop being surprised at the folks who insist intoning a word that means "So be it" is mere politeness and not at all a part of the prayer...

[Jokerman]

2. Sorry Abby, can't agree with you on this one.

I do not bow my head and I certainly will not say amen. I sit quietly until they are done. I try not to show any disrespect but I will not participate in any way.

[Longhorn]

3. I don't bow my head or say Amen.

I'll hold hands, as that's what my extended family likes to do, but that's about it.

[Phentex]

22. same here. I just keep my eyes open and stand silently while they pray....

and have instructed my children to do the same.

[progressoid]

4. I bow my head out of respect but I don't say 'amen'.

I think the group 'amen' thing has been growing in use lately. Maybe its just the homogenization of the various sects, but I don't remember that happening much when I was a kid.

Also, saying Amen at the end suggests that I agree with the prayer....NOT! This group think mentality is a little freaky.

[Warpy]

5. Abby just regurgitated what believers want you to do

and they want you to bow your head like you're praying and say "amen" at the end so that everybody will think that you're praying and nobody will get uncomfortable at the thought that somebody in the room doesn't think they have all the answers.

Personally, I don't give a rip what they want. I'll delay starting on my soup until the Jesus people are done mumbling over it, but I won't join in the mumbling.

Sorry, Abby.

[noamnety]

9. bingo

If you aren't religious, the polite thing to do is apparently pretend you are, because not being so will offend people.

Some people need to figure out whether they are praying because it's a special moment for them to contemplate their beliefs and commune with their gods, or whether it's to impress their guests.

I'll sit quietly out of respect for their beliefs, but I'm not saying Amen, just like I don't say "under God" in the pledge.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

14. LOL, I like that, a lot, delay the soup while they mumble indeed! LOL! N/T

[beam me up scottie]

6. Dear Abby

Bend over for bushco and let me know how it feels.

We have always been taught to go along to get along and look where it's gotten us.

You are right not to follow her advice for the meek.

[onager]

7. As the great John Prine wrote...

Dear Abby, dear Abby, my fountain pen leaks,
My wife hollers at me and my kids all are freaks,
Every side I get up on is the wrong side of bed,
If it weren’t so expensive, I’d wish I were dead.
Signed, Unhappy.

Unhappy, Unhappy...
(Chorus)
You have no complaints,
You are what your are and you ain’t what you ain’t.
So listen up buster, and listen up good,
Stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood!

Dear Abby, dear Abby, well, I never thought,
That me and my girlfriend would ever get caught.
We were sitting in the back seat just shooting the breeze,
With her hair up in curlers, and her pants 'round her knees.
Signed, Just Married.

Just Married, Just Married...
You have no complaints...

[beam me up scottie]

10. Bunch of whiners!

Marine Corps Boot Camp is the cure for that!
:evilgrin:

[DavidDvorkin]

11. "Respect" is a rhetorical club

People use that word as a way to force others to go along with the silliest and most offensive nonsense.

I have no respect for religious belief, and I would never go along with the outward display of observance out of "respect".

(Two weeks ago, I was in Florida having just this argument with my father concerning saying prayers at my mother's grave.)

[beam me up scottie]

12. I'm sorry to hear about your argument with your father.

I was married to a fundie's son. Every holiday I would think to myself
"Here we go..."
I finally stopped attending functions that included her. I didn't ask my husband to choose, I simply decided not to subject myself to any more harassment.

And they talk to us about respect?
Feh.

[DavidDvorkin]

17. I had written about it before it happened

In a manner of speaking. (A year or so ahead of time, but just by coincidence.) If my father were Internet-savvy, I'd have pointed him to it: http://www.dvorkin.com/essays/anglophonia/a12.htm

[beam me up scottie]

19. Thank you for inviting me to your website.

It is wonderfully personal. I feel like I just had a visit with you and your lovely wife at your home.
I bookmarked it for when the reality of living in a very impersonal and unenlightened red state gets to be too much.(And also for some much needed perspective.)
Now I'm homesick, but in a good way.

~Linda

[DavidDvorkin]

23. Sometimes I expect a knock on the door in the middle of the night

Because of my site.

When I lived in South Africa during the Apartheid years, people often went to bed with that fear -- people who had spoken out against the government. Now I'm getting that feeling here.

Except that it wouldn't be a knock. An Iraqi said recently that the difference between the Americans and Saddam is that when Saddam's agents came to take people away, they knocked at the door, whereas the Americans just break it down.

[beam me up scottie]

29. Sadly, I was thinking the same thing.

I know Big Brother is watching the dissenters.
After all, this is the same administration that claimed this country's biggest security threats were from eco-terrorists and animal rights activists.
I don't want to be paranoid but we need to watch our backs.

[DavidDvorkin]

30. Essay echoing this

I just came across it:

http://justicefornone.com/article.php?story=20050527204356114

[Is It Fascism Yet]

16. sorry you lost your mom! n/t

[Is It Fascism Yet]

13. I agree with you, amen is part of the prayer...

I think we have all been too patient. I have done exactly as Abby suggests so many times; uncomfortably waiting through their supplications to a giant in the sky; (the guy responsible for the sound of thunder, that's the sound of the angels taking out his garbage cans, I am told). Look at the thanks we get for our tolerance, now the courts are prohibiting parents from teaching their own children their own religion if that religion happens not to be "mainstream".
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481
The tolerance of others has made the bible thumpers all the bolder, and I am all done with bowing my head while they pray. They can pray all they want, but not at my dinner table, anymore. And, these days, I finish the pledge of allegience just a heartbeat before everyone else, because of having left out their god, and then I sit.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

15. Why are we all trying not to show disrespect? I am through with that...

I don't really have any respect for these ultra superstitious people, and their belief system seems as primitive as cave men's totem animals. I am tired of pretending I respect this foolishness, and it seems only to encourage them.

[onager]

18. I get involved in this nonsense every time I go home...

...which is in the buckle on the Buy-bull belt in Upstate South Carolina.

It took years, but finally I've pretty much convinced other family members not to ask me to "say the blessing." (It's considered something of an honor.) I used to politely ask that someone else do it when they put me on the spot.

My elderly mother is still a fairly staunch Southern Baptist, and I'd do anything to avoid hurting her feelings. But I really hate being put in the position of being a liar and a hypocrite.

I think she got the hint when she and my aunt (staunch Methodist) visited me a few years ago and looked over the bookshelves. I keep the Bibles on the same shelf as Bulfinch's Mythology, The Golden Bough, The Encyclopedia Of Witchcraft and Demonology,, etc.

Oh, and I caught them sneaking peeks at my books on atheism.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

20. LOL, and just the same self they should be on!

[Gelliebeans]

21. The last time I said grace

was about 5 years ago at my MIL's house (Mormons)
They hounded me every family gathering so I finally gave in after politely declining for a few years.

I said "Over the teeth and through the gums, look out stomach cuz here it comes." :rofl:

My husband let out a guffaw, unfortunately no one else found it amusing.

We giggled ourselves silly on the drive home.

Since that time, when it comes time to say grace at ANY family gathering my MIL just gives me the old evil eye. ;)



edited for spelling

[shrike]

24. That's incredibly rude that they asked you to say grace

I assume everyone knew you were a non-believer.

I'm a believer myself, so I'll add my two cents: I don't see any reason for the non-believer to say amen, but there's nothing wrong with sitting quietly until the prayer has ended. If it is your house, that is one thing -- an atheist should not be expected to say grace over a meal he/she prepared. But if you're a guest in someone else's house, a courteous pause on your part until the prayer is ended would be nice. And if your friends care about you, they'll do their thing and not worry about you. (If they try to hassle you into praying, you should find new friends. Though family you're stuck with.)

[Gelliebeans]

34. being polite on numerous

occasions were fruitless on my part. That is why I finally gave my little prayer in sarcasm.

As for my husbands family acknowledging that we are Atheists, they will never and I repeat never give up on us finally seeing the light of gawd. We love them in spite of their faults.

As for our family gatherings, I have obviously not been asked to lead the prayer since nor do I say "amen". Both my husband and I are respectful in someone else's house by standing quietly but we will not bow our heads.

BTW if you come for dinner at my house we do buffet style to avoid this very situation.

[shrike]

36. Sounds like you handle it well

I just can't imagine asking an atheist to lead -- or even participate in -- a prayer.

[Warpy]

26. Archie Bunker's grace

"Bless the meat and damn the skin
Open yer kisser and cram it in"

[amandae]

27. LOL

:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

28. ROFLMFAO !

:spray:
I had forgotten Archie's version of grace!
:rofl:

[Gelliebeans]

35. I forgot that one LOL n/t

[fshrink]

25. 1/2 ass.

Being a total ass, I do nothing.

[GOPFighter]

31. Depends

If I'm in a group who of people who do not force their religion on others (i.e., not religious fanatics), I bow my head during their prayer, but under no circumstances do I say Amen.

[Dee625]

32. I too dissagree with Abby

I'll sit quietly while they do their thing, but I don't participate in any way. Had a funny grace experience myself. My brother, wife and children were here for a holiday dinner (xmas I think). His wife does the religion thing and makes the kids do it. I think she's figured out not to ask myself, hubby or our kids. Usually she asked one of her kids to say grace. For some reason she asked my brother (her husband). Bad move.

He did the "good food, good meat, good god, let's eat". She looked up all appalled and my whole family plus my brother are laughing and digging into the food. When her kids saw our reaction, they dug into the food too. Ah well....

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

33. I guess she won't be

asking him to say grace again anytime soon?

I'll bet her kids remember that for the rest of their lives.
They were probably thinking "Gee, we aren't the only ones who think this is dumb."
Wonder how many times they'll try to do the same thing?
:rofl:

What an ouchie for your SIL!

[NMMNG]

37. It depends

If I'm with believers who respect my non-belief I'll bow my head and remain politely silent until they are done.

If I'm with the rabid fundie, in-your-face, proselytizing type who treat atheists like vermin I will stand straight and tall with my eyes open until they are done. If I see anybody peeking to see what I'm doing I'll stare straight at them.

I only give respect to those who give it to me.

[goddess40]

38. why not start eating?

They obviously don't give a rip that you are a non-believer. I'm not saying that you have to ask to pass the mashed potatoes but quietly going about your business isn't an insult to anyone.
I've decided that life in too short to pretend to 'respect' their belief in a fairy tale. While I don't point it out so harshly, I refuse to let it dictate what I do for one second longer.
Especially when I've provided the food and the cooking skills. They can thank god all they want and insult the real provider (me, the farmers, grocery store workers etc.) and not feel a bit like they are stepping on my toes

[shrike]

39. If it's your table and your food, there shouldn't even be a prayer

But if you are a guest at someone else's house, eating their food, digging in before the rest of the guests is rude, IMO.

[goddess40]

44. Why is it rude to quietly go about your business?

This is the same situation that we Dem's get ourselves into by letting the Reps dictate our agenda. By allowing them to force feed, no pun intended, us their religion we acknowledge that we believe that they are right and we are wrong and must humble ourselves to them.

I was raised in a Catholic house and went to church every frickin week. When I was 15 my mother "let" me go to church by myself, which meant she dropped me off at the door during winter so she knew I couldn't go anywhere, once there I sat in the back pew and got out a book. Some old man grabbed it out of my hand and threw in down the pew and started to lecture me, until his wife intervened and gave me back my book. So tell me why I should be respectful?

Like I said, I'm not screaming for someone to pass the mashed potatoes. I am talking about family dinners were everyone is aware of my stance. Although at large public events I will quietly have a conversation with my fellow atheists and agnostics during their mumbo-jumbo.

By the way my mother has since join the light side, the hypocrisy of the Catholic church made her see it for what it is.

[shrike]

45. Because it is

Let's put this in another context. Let's say the food's ready, but for one reason or another the meal hasn't started. But you're hungry, you go to the stove, dish yourself out some mashed potatoes, ham, whatever. You're hungry, you don't want to wait, so why should you?

Or let's say you're at a wedding. I've been taught not to eat until the toasting is done, and I am cued to get in line. (I think Emily Post would back me up, but I may be wrong.) Say you don't believe in toasts, think they're a waste of time, and besides, why should anyone tell YOU when it's time to fill up your plate. Let's say there's a buffet up there, hot and waiting. So you get up and fill your plate while the toaster says his piece. Why should you wait, if toasting means nothing to you and gosh darnit, you hate those frickin' lines.

There's no reason you should have to bow your head, clasp hands, fold your hands, say the prayer, say amen, or any of that. THAT is unreasonable. But it's not going to kill you to wait a minute or two and eat with the rest of the group.

[Longhorn]

46. It's a matter of respecting the customs of others.

When I have Thanksgiving dinner at my house with my in-laws, I invite my mother-in-law to say a prayer. She's sometimes the only one there who actually prays but who cares?

My son-in-law is a Muslim and doesn't eat pork. When he comes to the house to eat, we try to have non-pork options available for him, as does my Christian mother-in-law when we go to her house. In fact, she's better at remembering about it than I am!

That's in my own home, so I'm certainly going to be respectful of the customs of others in their homes. If I had any customs associated with being an atheist, I would expect others to respect them, but I can't think of any.

[shrike]

47. Absolutely correct n/t

[BurtWorm]

40. Just sit and wait.

Why bow your head? :wtf:

PS: When I'm with another atheist, I usually spend the prayer winking at him or her or rolling my eyes.

[Warpy]

41. heh, so do I

If it's a short grace, the soup's not going to get cold. However, if it seems like it's going on and on and on and on, I'll roll my eyes and pick up my spoon. That generally results in a dirty look and a hasty "amen" from the self important windbag.

I think Miss Manners would be proud of my restraint. My ex's family was very churchy (not evangelical), and I always found just waiting until a grace was said was sufficient. Starting to eat while everybody else was mumbling would have been rude, and I did love them all.

[BurtWorm]

42. I have an image of someone playing the spoons

while everyone else is praying. :rofl:

[Sabriel]

43. My family still sings the Doxology at Thanksgiving

It's a family tradition of sorts, and it doesn't bother me any more than joining in on carols does or playing religiously based compositions. However, I'd draw the line at doing it for non-family. It's hypocritical, I know, but there it is.

[arwalden]

48. I Just Sit Quietly. No Bowing Of Head. No Closing Of Eyes. No "Amen".

Fuck that shit. -- If my silence during their deity begging and groveling isn't good enough for 'em... then fuck 'em.