Hello, everyone. I would like your opinions, if you would be so kind.

[Midlodemocrat]

I am a devout Catholic and have been having an ongoing exchange with several people regarding atheism. I have a question I would like your opinions on, and I am definitely not here to flame anyone, so I would hope you would feel the same way.

Two years ago, my sister-in-law was dying of ovarian cancer. This was on the heels of my mom, who was an extraordinary presence in all our lives, passing from a heart attack. As my SIL lay dying at Sloan-Kettering, she kept almost yelling at my brother, saying, you need to call your mom, your mom wants to know why you haven't called, etc., etc., My brother, himself a devout Catholic, spoke to the nurses, doctors, because he was concerned that she was hallucinating, and perhaps her meds needed adjustment.

The doctors, nurses, et al, at Sloan-Kettering, mind you, told my brother that they thought his beloved wife was 'seeing glimpses of the other side'.

There was no doubt that my SIL knew she was dying. She had given birth 16 months prior to her death, and the cancer was caught 2 weeks after the beautiful baby was born. On her last trip to the hospital, she said goodbye to the baby, something that still brings me to tears when I think of it.

Do you think this is possible? Do you think she was seeing 'the other side'? She never made a mention of God, or Jesus or a higher being, but she was insistent that she had talked to my mom, who had passed a year prior.

I am really, sincerely interested in the thoughts, comments of those who post in this group and I hope you aren't offended that I have come here.

Peace,
Midlo.

[YankeyMCC]

1. Anyone is welcome to come here

at least in my opinion and as far as I can tell everyone else who posts here.

Science has yet to describe everything but I suspect there is plenty of explanation for what you describe.

There is no mean by which she could've known your Mom was passing as you describe. Most likely it was one or combination of emotional stress, hallucination and misunderstanding about what she thought she was saying and what you all thought you were hearing.

She may have been thinking about your Mother in general with no thought of her dying.

Plenty of explanation is available that does require the supernatural.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I think I didn't make myself clear.

She knew my mom had passed. She was just beginning her treatment when my mom died, very suddenly.

I was just intrigued by the comments from the staff at this cutting edge, leading hospital that she was 'seeing the other side'. It gave me hope that I will see her again.

[YankeyMCC]

4. I can't speak for the people

at the hospital. Or explain what their beliefs are or why they would say such a thing. You'll have to ask them.

I would never say such a thing to someone even someone I liked and respected and was a theist.

But I expect that some people think it is comforting. And just because someone works in the sciences doesn't mean they are without a belief in the supernatural. Human beings are complex and sometimes contradictory in action and thought.

[beam me up scottie]

3. I am sorry for your family's tragic double loss.

What a terrible time that must have been.
I never really gave much thought to the possibility of an afterlife but I would never presume to tell you or anyone else that it does not exist. I have no way of knowing that. I suppose it is possible and if you and your brother are comforted by the feeling that she is with your mother on "the other side" then who am I to tell you otherwise?

However, it does seem extremely unprofessional that doctors and nurses were giving their opinions to your brother as to what she may or may not have been experiencing.

Again I offer my condolences to you and your family.

[Midlodemocrat]

5. Thank you so much.

We have had a rough few years. First my MIL, then my mom, then my SIL, and last year, my dad and a very dear friend.

I wondered about the SK staff and their comments as well. I would love to think that it is because they have seen so much death that this 'talking to the other side' is common and therefore their knee jerk response.

As a practicing Catholic, I do believe in afterlife and I have to say, to hear the 'scientists' comment on it gave us immense comfort.

The more and more I think about it, however, and it has been almost two years, I still wonder. Where they trying to comfort us? Or was it a reaction from seeing so much sorrow and death?

I still don't know.

I don't know why my dear friend with two children lost her husband in a ridiculous accident where the driver was drinking and driving too fast, (and her poor husband was just hitching a ride, and probably didn't know until it was too late) and people in my community continue to take their marriages and their spouses for granted by cheating, lying, etc. Is it pre-ordained? I don't know. I just know that my brother has been left with an incredibly difficult road to hoe, and he didn't deserve it.

[beam me up scottie]

6. Life is terribly difficult for

so many of us. I think the only people who find it not so are the ones who are incapable of compassion and lack the sensitivity to feel the pain of others. Empathy is found in believers and non alike.
I hope peace comes to you and your family.

[goddess40]

12. I had a college professor that had his doctorate in theology

and he said that a large number of clergy don't believe in god but they continue to minister like they do because they feel that the people need the belief in god to get through life. I think the medical staff might have been trying to be kind and help the family deal with the grief, they certainly weren't going to say that there is no other side for her to be seeing.
My guess it was drug, pain and/or grief induced visions. The power of suggestion can be very strong - look a placebos and how they effect people and that is a short term application- unlike a religious belief that is usually life long.

I'm truly sorry for your losses.

[Az]

7. Sorry to have to say

But first off I don't believe she was talking to another side as I do not believe there is another side. It is comforting for some to believe that identity persists. But to date there is nothing to suggest that this is so.

Our minds are extrodinary things but they are not as extrodinary as some people would like them to be. We cannot control or know the thoughts of others no matter how much we wish to. Knowledge and control are the things that ellude us throughout our lives. Doubt and struggle are our constant companions.

When terrible things happen we wish to control them. To exert our will on the universe about us. When we lose contact with those we love we wish to know their minds. This is simply the result of how we come to know the world around us. It is simply how we are.

You have lost two significant people in your life. You are trying to find some sense of it. You are looking to understand the universe in a way that gives you a feeling of control of the path you find yourself and those you love are on. To this end you will look to clues you believe have meaning and try to leverage what comfort you can out of them. This is natural. But it is beyond expectations to achieve such control.

[onager]

8. It would be hard to find offense...

...in a post like yours. I'm very sorry for your losses. Reading over the number of people you've lost, it seems like the grief would be nearly impossible to bear.

I have seen this happen, especially when I was growing up in the South. One of my first distinct memories is being at my grandfather's bedside when he died (at home). I was 4. He "saw" a lot of people who had died and spoke to them out loud, including his mother.

Some people think we atheists must be cold and unfeeling people when it comes to these situations. We don't pray, we don't believe in an afterlife, and so forth.

Religious believers often ask how we find comfort when someone passes on.

Speaking only for myself, I find comfort pretty much like everybody else does --in happier memories of that person. I may not believe in an immortality with angels and Pearly Gates, but I know that as long as I live, that person lives too, in my mind. And in the minds of everyone else who knew them.

[BiggJawn]

9. I can't speak for the people at the hospital.

I think you've come to the wrong place to ask about re-assurances of the "Other Side"

I'm really quite puzzled by it. would that not be akin to asking a Vegan what Prime Rib tastes like?

I can only speak for me, and what I believe is that there is no "other side". Squander it, or pack every second full until time itself splits, this is all there is. You're born, you live, then you die.

Doesn't mean I don't miss those who were close to me who are gone, too...

[PassingFair]

10. I believe that the great healer is

time. I don't believe that it heals ALL wounds, but if you can keep your self together, time will do the rest.
Good luck!
When my dad died, I left a paper bag on the porch before the "wake". When I went back to pick it up, the condensation of the contents had left a large, noticible heart on the cement.
A sign? No, but it made me smile to think that I could for a moment think that it might be.
I can understand why people "see" the face of gods/goddesses/demi-gods, etc. on grilled cheese sandwiches, I have felt bereft.
I have found strength within myself, with the help of time and love.

[Zenlitened]

11. Did they know or somehow sense that your family is religious?

Maybe they were just inventing some mystical sort of spiel they thought you'd like to hear.

[Deep13]

13. No, ...

... because there is no "other side." I think that because of her ailment, she merely forgot that your mother is dead and was probably hallucinating. As a cancer patient, I am assuming your SIL was on a morphine drip. I know you don't believe that there is no "other side", but you asked for opinions and that is mine. Of course, if there is an other side, it does not necessarily mean there is a God or a Jesus there. When my father died, the ICU nurses were the same way. They said he went to a better place and took offense when I said that he did not subscribe to that. I suppose it is a coping mechanism for people who are constantly surrounded by death.

I am sorry that your family has suffered so much and that your mother and SIL were deprived a long life. Unfortunately, I know how that is. Still, I take comfort in knowing that death is a necessary part of life and the time after life is no different than the time before we were born. All those who came before us when through that process and the world continues to turn.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Unless your brother and sister-in-law had been involved in spiritualism

then I would think she must have been hallucinating (you say she was on medication). Talking about 'calling' your mother sounds more like a memory of normal life than an attempt to talk about an afterlife - unless that was the normal phrase they would use for that. In such a sad situation, she was thinking about her family, undoubtedly, and the relationship of a child to their mother would be at the top. That might include such things as worrying about her husband having to bring up a child on his own - a circumstance when most men would turn to their own mother for advice and help.

My commiserations to you and your brother. I wish him luck in what must be a very difficult situation.

[Longhorn]

15. When my MIL was dying of cancer, she went through all sorts of stages.

She had always been somewhat religious but didn't "wear it on her sleeve." Her cancer started in the breast, then migrated to her lungs, then to her brain, in the course of about five years. Several times, she thought she had it licked.

Toward the end, she started watching the 700 Club nonstop and started talking about Jesus all the time and how he was going to save her. When it was clear that she was not getting better, she got very depressed, trying to understand why Jesus wasn't saving her, believing that she must be a terrible person. She would call people in the middle of the night and beg them to contribute to the 700 Club so that Jesus would save her. It was very difficult to watch but we also knew that she was on heavy doses of steroids.

One good outcome, at least for me: She had always made it clear that she didn't care for me, though she was polite to me. She tried to send my husband to another college to get him away from me and when my husband and I had a tiff when our oldest daughter was just six months old, she actually started crying when he told her that we were getting back together! I had just given birth to our fourth child when the cancer showed up again in her brain. I spent so much time caring for her that I lost my milk and could no longer nurse our son. One day, she admitted to me that she was against our marriage, etc., but that now, she "thanked Jesus" that I came into her son's life. Even if it was the drugs talking, I'm so glad I got to hear her say that. She was just shy of her 50th birthday when she died in 1984. We've been married nearly 30 years, by the way, and will both turn 50 this summer, so we are now realizing just how young she was!

You have my deepest sympathies for all of these losses, especially so many in such a short time. Thanks for visiting our group and I wish you better times in the future. :hug:

[Warpy]

16. Near death experiences are very much the same

although people interpret them according to their own religious expectations. There's a sensation of complete peace, a sensation of floating away, and the presence of other beings/spirits/departed souls/gods within a bright light. It's entirely possible she was experiencing some of this during her passing.

I've seen a lot of death, and I've noticed one thing: when people get very close, they turn down pain medicine for even the most painful diseases. There is something about letting go of life that also allows them to let go of distress caused by pain.

I've been close myself, and what I remember most of all was the feeling that nothing here mattered, that everything was perfect, that I was all right no matter what happened, and there was a bliss of total peace. That's all I recall, but it's kept me completely unafraid of dying since I was 22.

Dying, no matter what becomes of us afterwards, or even if there is an afterwards beyond hallucinating on happy hormones, seems to be a merciful process in so many cases. The pain belongs to the people left behind who horribly miss the person who has gone.

I'm sorry for your losses. What your sister in law described to you is what many dying people experience. It's normal.

[shrike]

17. I'm not an atheist

But I do lurk here because occasionally the topics are interesting -- I lurk in the pagan group as well.

I had to watch my father die and it was extremely difficult. Though there was no talk of the other side, he did look up at one point and say, clear as a bell, 'I'm about to die.' He'd been out of it so long that it startled us.

My sister is a nurse and worked critical care for years. She says the dying are much more aware than we think. Even if they appear to be in a haze or pumped full of drugs, they are aware of what's happening and what or who is in the room. This is why she cautions people to be very careful what they say in such a situation.

I always refer to the line in the Laura Nyro song: 'Only the dyin' will tell.' None of us really knows until we get there. But I can tell you, having suffered losses myself, it will get easier. You think you will never smile again, never laugh again, but it happens. You do get through it, somehow.

[fshrink]

18. Since

you say you are a devout catholic, you do believe in an "other side" and in all kinds of miracles and supernatural things as well. Atheists want to know only one "side", the one they spend their life on.

[Modem Butterfly]

19. Respectfully, no

My condolences on your loss. Sick people are sick because they're bodies are not functioning properly. To make up for this, we give them medication which makes some parts of the body function even less properly. Your SIL, like many sick people, was experiencing hallucinations. The staff at her hospital, like many people, were doing the best to comfort her family. No, your SIL was not seeing glimpses of the other side, but rather experiencing body and brain dysfunction.

[Book Lover]

20. Please accept my condolences for your family's losses

Although I ought not put words in any of my fellow atheists' mouths, in general folks who identify as atheist don't believe there is any kind of "other side." I certainly do not. In my lacking-fact opinion, I think your sister was either experiencing actual auditory hallucinations, or she was experiencing a level of delirium.

Also, being in a medical family myself, I have to tell you that I think most of the medical personnel were telling your brother what they thought he wanted to hear.

[Taxloss]

21. I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope my experience brings a little comfort.

I do not believe in an afterlife, but that isn't to say that I don't appreciate that there's a great mystery to death that we, as living beings, cannot fathom. I just don't think that consciousness survives death, which puts me at odds with the Christian tradition.

However, as I say, there's something there we cannot understand without looking in the face.

My paternal grandfather, after suffering years of Parkinson's Disease and repeated strokes, was nearly completely incapacitated but, I am convinced chose his time and place of death, dying as he did sitting up on a longboat on a beautiful canal - truly "beside the still water", in the words of the Psalm.

Within six months, his wife, my paternal grandmother, just keeled over and died. Before then, she had been as robust as you can expect an 80something to be. I think she knew her time, too.

That was all more than ten years ago, but my maternal grandfather died in 2001. He had been very ill for a long time - all the males in my family are blessed with long lives and cursed with terrible, long-drawn-out deaths. For most of the latter part of his life, Grandpa sat in his armchair reading and grumbling. But two days before he died, Grandma said he was up and sitting at his desk, for the first time in close to a decade, and writing furiously. We found what he wrote after his fourth heart attack killed him; detailed and thorough instructions about what to do in the event of his death. Somehow, he knew as well.

So I think we do see death when it stalks up on us, and I think it's a natural impulse for us to make arrangements or to settle business in that final countdown.

As for what comes later, it would be stupid of me to say "nothing", even though that's what I feel. At best, I think it's a great mystery, a great dark ocean. "Now comes the mystery," said Henry Ward Beecher, the evangelist, when he died in 1887. I agree.

[shrike]

23. Yes, they do know, don't they?

My SIL was diagnosed with cancer, given a two to three years' prognosis, underwent chemotherapy and was doing quite well. Suddenly, we got a very loving letter from her that sounded suspiciously like a goodbye. She died just days later.

[zippy890]

22. If it makes you feel better

to think there is the 'other side' - then believe in it, and take comfort in it. Religion seems to give people comfort during difficult times.

I sense you would like to think 'scientific people' believe in an afterlife, and that would make it more plausible. I'm sure some do and some don't.

I am sorry for your sorrows, and wish you and your family the best.

[GOPFighter]

24. I'm sorry about your sister-in-law

Reading that your SIL was diagnosed with cancer just 2 weeks after giving birth to a baby brought tears to my eyes. Every once in awhile you read about something so horrible it makes your whole insides twist up in agony.

[Discord]

25. I'm sorry to hear about your loss.

You are welcome to post here with any honest questions you may have about Atheism or just for an alternate point of view to what you may be accustomed to.

My opinion of this is purely scientific. There has been many cases such as this that have been mentioned, documented, and studied. Unfortunately, if you were to ask 100 different people from differing backgrounds and religions, you would likely get 100 varying answers. When my grandfather was dying from cancer, whom was a devout Methodist, starting about 3 days before he passed away, he had many moments where he "wasn't there".

He would be awake, but almost in a transient state. He had mentioned his father, times in his childhood, as if he were reliving his memories. Part of this was, in my opinion, partly from the medication he was on for the pain, and in his own way, he was preparing himself for passing. Finding comfort in his happy memories, and thoughts of his family that had passed many years before him awaiting him. The mind is a powerful mechanism, and capable of many things beyond what our level of science has been able to fully understand.

I believe that in her own way, she was preparing herself for passing. Finding comfort for herself in the inevitable.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I realize that atheists don't believe in a higher being, but I didn't realize that atheists don't believe in an afterlife. I guess I never thought about the two being synonomous.

I appreciate your feedback on this.

[Zenlitened]

27. "didn't realize that atheists don't believe in an afterlife"

Really? Wow! I thought that was in all our marketing literature. :D

[Midlodemocrat]

28. No, seriously.

Because I do know people who don't believe in a higher being, who do believe in an afterlife, just not the type I believe in.

[Az]

33. The nature of what people believe

Is entirely defined by the range of ideas presented to them by their environment. I have met individuals that have never met someone that did not believe in god. The thought never crossed their mind. Discussions of the matter never came up in their life.

The same is entirely possible with any aspect of belief. Imagine a world where no one ever talked about a god (sigh). The discussion of such a thing would seem quite strange to the citizens of that world.

It is perhaps improper to say that the nature of one's belief is entirely defined by their environment. The very nature of change in our society is predicated on the notion that the definitions derived within a society are constantly changed by the contemplation of variations on the beleifs and concepts of the society. Thus there is always a little leeway within a society to think outside the boundaries defined by it.

But move too far beyond the boundaries and social pressures and internal stress tend to force the elements back into shape. This is perhaps why so many instinctually fear moral relativism. It actively embraces change and adaption. And this in turn fosters rapid change and disintergration of the society that most have grown up within. The fact that it leads to a potentially more informed society has little bearing on those threatened by the change. They cannot put faith in an unknown social structure while they still have commitment to their existing social structure.

[Book Lover]

29. I think you misunderstand something

Atheists do not share any beliefs among ourselves. We are a group only insofar as we do not hold onto a belief in the divine (and I'm probably *still* mischaracterizing some who self-identify as atheist), but we don't really group together. I am sure, for instance, that I would argue with a Buddhist atheist because I see Buddhism still as a belief system; though a good argument can be made for otherwise.

I guess what I'm trying to say it your conclusion "atheists don't believe in an afterlife" will not be correct 100% of the time.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your post. Thanks for coming by. Come back soon :-)

[Midlodemocrat]

30. Oh, thanks!. I appreciate your clearing that up for me.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Very well said.

I wish more people would take the time to understand that and why we get stereotyped.

[Book Lover]

32. Oh, I'm glad I was clear

I know I can make that more accurate, though...