Was I wrong?

[Pale Blue Dot]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7697597


I'll take each response in this forum seriously.

[TZ]

1. I've already given my opinion

But let me add this..I have seen people post about various troubles they have and occasionally someone will come along and post..Something like "If you accept Christ into your heart all your troubles will vanish". Thats not a particularly welcome response.
To someone who is a pastor..thats kind of how they are going to interpret it...as proselytizing of a sort.
While you are technically in the right...people in that position aren't interested in right or logic..A challenge to their beliefs is not going to do anything but most likely harden their beliefs.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. "challenge to their beliefs is not going to do anything but most likely harden their beliefs."

Turtlensue, what do you do ALL DAY LONG, but challenge people's beliefs? Can you honestly say that if someone had posted what I wrote in post #10, that you would not have responded rather forcefully? I've seen you do it many times!!

[TZ]

3. I do but I do it for the benefit of others really

Because I don't actually expect to change that posters belief. But you are not really making a good case to others in this case..Its not your beliefs I am criticizing but the way you went about it. I try really hard when someone is not trying to bullshit others and posts in the lounge about something that concerns them not to be snarky..the people who genuinely are concerned about vaccines and ask for actually info instead of getting on their soapbox, for instance
Really I'm not trying to piss you off or anything here. I really am trying to help you..because I don't believe your methodology here is helping..I was trying to prevent the coming pile on....I also think that the poster IS trying to fight homophobia in theonly way she knows how....I do understand your frustration but I am concerned that this might be detrimental to you here..:pals: :hi:
Truce?

[Warpy]

4. I generally don't jump on religion as the problem in these cases

because it brings up the old adage about mud wrestling with a pig.

This person is a gay church official who is walking a very fine line between two hostile groups and being attacked for pleasing no one. The job could easily have been widget making instead of god bothering, one of the points made in a subsequent post.

Jumping on religion as the problem was not a great idea in this case.

[PassingFair]

5. If she was talking about Chrysler not hiring gay people...

you wouldn't have had a single poster against you.



I wouldn't have had the nerve to go to the
heart of the matter like you did.

They circled the wagons......

[TZ]

9. Would you like it if you were complaining about some problem

and some fundie jump in and say, you know, if you just put your faith in Jesus everything would be okay? No, you'd hate it. Right or wrong its just plain rude to attack someone's religious beliefs in that way..AND it reinforces the meme of the "fundamentalist atheist".
As much as I like Finnfan, what he did and how he did it violates everything my SECULAR family raised me to believe in respecting others. I refuse to act like the fundies, sorry.
And the issue was not at all about gay tolerance per se but how to deal with coworkers who were idealistic assholes. Acting like another type of idealistic assholes won't do anything.

[PassingFair]

12. Funny, happens ALL THE TIME, and not just when I'm complaining....

but at FUNERALS, too!

"and some fundie jump in and say, you know, if you just put your faith in Jesus everything would be okay?"

And not just FUNDIES, either.

And yes, if I worked for Chrylser, and they
decided to hire/fire/accept based on sexual
preference, I'd snark about it.

[LeftyMom]

10. She's bi, and it's an open and affirming congregation in a denomination that is in favor

of equal marriage. I kinda doubt it's a matter of homophobia- if her parishioners were 'phobes they'd probably have bailed for another church a long time ago.

It sounds to me like both sides are saying the same thing: "I want to feel at home in this church." The people who want more outreach to the glbt community don't want to be a minority in the congregation, and the people who don't want to be a "gay church" are also worried that they would be uncomfortable as a minority. Obviously they're not worried about merely having gay people in the church, or being part of a gay-friendly church, both ships have long since sailed.

One side wants rapid and dramatic change (considering the understandable discomfort in GLBT circles with christian churches, that's probably unreasonable) and the other is resistant to change- as I said in that thread, the degree to which one embraces change is a big cause of conflict, and if the issue of outreach to the gay community disappeared tomorrow, the same conflict would likely show up in a month, over worship music or the new carpeting for the fellowship hall or something.

The funny thing is, DU has the same conflict all the time (not so much over gay issues, but at heart it's the same conflict) only here it gets framed as "the big tent." In principle, everybody's in favor of being welcoming, but when you get down to specifics, few people want to welcome overwhelming numbers of people with different interests than their own, for fear that their own needs will go unaddressed.

[dmallind]

6. Not really

I say this as a pretty outspoken atheist too. Whether I'm one or not, it's a safe assumption you're not. I can and will if you like happily argue why I have that opinion and consider it more valid than yours, but that's going to do bugger all for your job woes unless you think that some kind of "debate an atheist day" at your church might cause your congregation to unify by any wild chance.

Apart from saying trust me I am in manufacturing and the same problems exist in almost perfect analogy - for the simple reason that any group of people will have diverse opinions and priorities and I have to "shepherd" this plant and its people just like you have to shepherd that congregation - I can offer only banal advice. This is because there is only banal advice available for such situations. I think you guys have some pretty decent parables about acceptance of trials and tribulations right? I think you have a few examples in the big leather book on your pulpit of how difficult it is to unify a group of people even when you are speaking of an ostensibly catholic (small c of course) god and faith. If Moses couldn't do it what chance do you have, no offense intended as you should certainly not be slighted by the comparison?

So other than forebearance what could you do? Remind people - and BOTH sets of people - you are there to serve the whole congregation of the people who wish to be part of your church. On this site of course you'll get 99% in support of the glbt folks - me included - but only IF you make it a competition or either/or. You can't do that and win either for yourself or your congregation. If the GLBT folks want no conservative social members of their church ask them why they would deny pastoral attention to conservatives just because of politics? Tell them that the best way to improve acceptance of GLBT folks is to remove the ignorance and fear of the other that is the prime cause of it. How can you do that if you turn away the conservatives from your church by word or deed? Isn't it better to welcome them into a congregation with significant GLBT presence too so they can see that they are normal people just like anyone else?

If the conservative members want no GLBT congregation, the same arguments still work but you can add others too - that we are supposed to love the "sinner" right? We are supposed to be bringing prople closer to the faith right? If everyone were perfect and godly why would you even need clergy? Again you don't have to say you want to do a "gay conversion" bit and you don't have to say you agree that homosexcuality is a sin (unless of course you do so agree).

I suspect you've tried all that. Which perhaps leaves actions and ministry rather than mere statements. You're the guy who determines the sermons right? How many times can you look at different ways to hit these notes? Heck I can think of enough to keep you going for months so doubtless you can think of more. What about volunteer activities that are not overtly aimed at GLBT perhpas but focus on the same areas - ministry to those considered "not like us" to the conservatives?

This of course will not create a perfect union where all the GLBTs and the reactionary RWers join hands and sing kumbaya while pledging eternal tolerance and understanding. You have to go pretty much to the very top of the clergy command chain to get to those who are even supposed to have that kind of power and influence - the guys with the wings and big halos and they aren't available for guest sermons. But could it slowly help? What else would do more?

[cosmik debris]

7. If you post, you should expect to get criticized

This goes for you as well as the OP.

I would not have posted the comments you posted because it seemed obvious that the OP was looking for a sympathetic shoulder to lean on. I don't have that much sympathy for religionists who hate their religious circumstances, so I would have passed on the snark for at least 15 minutes. :)

[regularguy]

8. Hmmm...

I'm a bit uncomfortable with where you went in that thread...I don't think religious belief was the point of the OP. Anyway, what do I know? :hi:

[ozone_man]

11. I never understood what lgbt get out of church

or feminists, or liberals.

Your first comment was snarky, but I've always wondered what glbt find of value in a typical patriarchal, misogynist, homophobic Christian church? Seems like an unrewarding and painful experience.

By contrast, the Universalist church is very accepting and doesn't teach Christian dogma. Even atheists can feel at home there.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is much to connect with even in a Christian church. The community for example, especially if there is a significant lgbt constituency.

Also, a reasonable argument can be made that that is the way to change the community, not by giving up and moving away to a different church, but by working toward a gradual change in community values and teaching Christianity in a more moderate, less dogmatic way.

I just have little tolerance for most religion. It's a relic from our ignorant past.

[goddess40]

13. This feminist and liberal recently joined the Universalist Unitarian church

Not something I'd ever thought I'd do since I've been a life long atheist but it's been great to go and be surrounded by many like minded or truly tolerant people.

After spending my early years fighting my mothers insistence of going to the Catholic church she joined me in my atheistic beliefs thanks to the churches nasty views of women and divorce. She and I joined the UU church the same day last fall.

It's been great for my son as well.

[Warpy]

14. The angriest I ever saw my mother get

was the Sunday a stuffed shirt of a priest who was entirely too full of himself gave a sermon on how the only place for a woman in the church was cleaning it.

The most disappointed I've ever been in her was that she didn't get up and walk out.

She eventually died an atheist. My dad also died an unbeliever, although he clung to the fantasy longer than she did.

I'm not a joiner. However, I usually suggest the UU for nonbelieving friends who are.

[ozone_man]

15. That's what I meant, Unitarian Universalist..

I say more power to those who want to work to change the Christian churches, like this pastor, but if they're looking for a tolerant church, then UU is the way to go.

Years ago, a Jewish girlfriend of mine tried to get me to go. I said I never wanted to go to church again. So she explained how it was different, so liberal and free thinking. Still didn't want to go, but it taught me that there was a good alternative for those who do want to attend a church.