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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 09:27 PM
Original message
A personal relationship
I've heard theists, particularly evangelical xians, talk about the importance of a personal relationship with god. I've just started reading "God's Politics" by Jim Wallis and he talks a lot about the importance of this personal relationship, without this relationship he contends religious beliefs become just another philosophy or worldview.

I can't find the exact quote right now, but as I read further on the implication is that "just another philosophy" implies that without this personal connection for whatever is the source of your morals (god in his case) you become susceptible to corruption of your values, prone to "if you're not with us you're against us" kind of mentality, and/or just changing direction with the wind.

Atheists clearly have moral codes. And as an atheist I certainly don't feel like I'm blowing with the wind and I feel like my moral code is firm and robust. So if our secular moral codes are analogous to religious codes is there something analogous to this "personal relationship" that keeps us anchored?

Maybe I have something like this and I just can't articulate it, I've never considered the question before.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. A personal relationship with yourself?
I don't think the religious "personal relationship" as you describe is valid. My interaction with people who say they draw their morality from religion leads me to believe more that they cherry-pick what they want from the religious code. They seem to draw the line at expressions of faith. It's a major no-no to not have faith.

Their personal behavior is just that, personal. They may ascribe it to relationship with god but they answer to their own sense of integrity. I know religious people who are also very moral, but I think the religion is an expression of their sense of morality, not the other way around.

--IMM
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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Atheists do not have a moral code
Atheists simply do not hold any belief in deities. There is no philosophy of atheism.

There are "good" and "bad" atheists, just as there are "good" and "bad" theists.

I'm sorry, YankeyMCC, you just cannot make that statement.

I live by the rules of the society I live in. And I'm happy to do so.

By making that statement, we could get into a discussion about government and ethics . . . .
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. relocated by author
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 06:52 AM by YankeyMCC
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's B.S.
I think "personal relationship" is just a buzz word to make believers think that they are more than just another sheep in a huge herd.

It seems to me that this "personal relationship" idea is a relatively recent phenomenon. As Christianity lost popularity to more humanistic and spiritual religions, xian leaders needed a way to make their faith more intimate. They needed a way to make their followers feel special. With a 'personal relationship', they can say, "look, I have a direct link to God. You and God can be buddies too, just like me."

In reality, if one were to dissect the concept of a personal relationship with God, you wouldn't come up with much. What kind of relationship is essentially one sided? Luckily for xian leaders, very few of the sheep in their flock are going to dissect it.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. OK, I took a bullet for the team...
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 12:14 AM by onager
and actually googled the phrase "personal relationship with god."

It was like suddenly turning onto a street full of really shabby and desperate used-car lots.

Strictly my opinion, but much of the verbiage about this whole "relationship" idea seemed to be raving gibberish. ("A relationship with God is no more or less than any other relationship." WTF?)

I did like the VERY CAREFUL distinctions they made between this sort of "personal relationship" and actually having a chat with the Omnipotent, Omniscient Creator Of The Universe.

Attempting that is described as Not Really A Good Idea. In the past He occasionally yakked with Old Testament prophets and the like, but He doesn't do that any more.

Just like He doesn't part the Red Sea anymore, or arbitrarily order the genocidal slaughter of whole nations, or even send the occasional Pillar Of Fire.

You know, a Pillar Of Fire would go a long way toward converting me from atheism. Uh, after I had it checked out by James Randi, that is.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here...
I don't mean to say that there is a common atheist moral code.

I mean each atheist individual (myself included remember) has a moral code. Yes I suppose there are some who consider themselves amoral, but I think by and large most atheists like most people have developed a worldview and philosophy that helps them decide good from bad, right from wrong.

Although there may be similarities each one is different and it is based on science and facts and our own real world observations and experiences rather than faith. Even religious people have individual moral codes but they start from a common framework based on their religion whereas atheists develop their "codes" from a wider variety of sources. Our codes are more likely methods of deciding and understanding rather than a laundry list of rules but still is a code of sorts, whatever it is it fills the same role in our view of the world as a religous person's rules. Again on an idividual basis not as a group. I agree atheistism is not analogous to a religion we don't have a common code.

So our own individual philosophies and worldviews play a similar role in our lives, helping us determine good from bad or right from wrong, as religion (a specialized philosophy based on faith) does for religious people. And I was just asking the question is there another aspect to philosophy that the "personal relationship" fills and what the secular analogue would be if any.

I thank progressoid, for the comment about this idea being recent, and perhaps that's why I can't find a secular idea that is an analogue because maybe it isn't playing any role but a political one to try and preserve the faith.

Anyone know if other religions talk about this besides xians? I know a muslim coworker who used to mention this "personal relationship" idea.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's another way to avoid the Total Perspective Vortex
which is one more superb commentary on life from Douglas Adams' Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

The Universe, as has been observed before, is an unsettlingly big place, a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore.

Many would happily move to somewhere rather smaller of their own devising, and this is what most beings in fact do.

For instance, in one corner of the Eastern Galactic Arm lies the large forest planet Oglaroon, the entire "intelligent" population of which lives permanently in one fairly small and crowded nut tree. In which tree they are born, live, fall in love, carve tiny speculative articles in the bark on the meaning of life, the futility of death and the importance of birth control, fight a few extremely minor wars, and eventually die strapped to the underside of some of the less accessible outer branches.

In fact the only Oglaroonians who ever leave their tree are those who are hurled out of it for the heinous crime of wondering whether any of the other trees might be capable of supporting life at all, or indeed whether the other trees are anything other than illusions brought on by eating too many Oglanuts.

Exotic though this behaviour may seem, there is no life form in the Galaxy which is not in some way guilty of the same thing, which is why the Total Perspective Vortex is as horrific as it is.

For when you are put into the Vortex you are given just one momentary glimpse of the entire unimaginable infinity of creation, and somewhere in it a tiny little marker, a microscopic dot on a microscopic dot, which says "You are here."

The Total Perspective Vortex derives its picture of the whole Universe on the principle of extrapolated matter analyses.

To explain - since every piece of matter in the Universe is in some way affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake.

The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order to annoy his wife.

Trin Tragula -- for that was his name -- was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.

And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analysis of pieces of fairy cake.

"Have some sense of proportion!" she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.

And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex -- just to show her.

And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.

http://www.earthstar.co.uk/vortex.htm


But if you have a 'personal relationship' with the Creator of the Universe, then you must be Someone after all. But not, in this enlightened day and age, Someone who Hears Voices. That would be Weird.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Beautiful!

I should always remember to consult the truth sayer Adams. :)
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