Please help set me straight on this!

[FrenchieCat]

I posted an op and wanted to know where I went wrong because the post is being tagged as "racist" by quite a few. That wasn't my goal, but hey....I'm not perfect, so certainly perhaps that is the case!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5933012

[SemperEadem]

1. I tend to agree with you

It's not racist. It's pointing out something that seems to be amiss. Eff those people whose minds are so small and closed that they can't understand something without being intimidated/diminished by it.

If you look at his parents, all of his biological siblings and nieces/nephews then look at his children, I cannot see how they can be his, either. If he adopted them, then that's another story.

[Number23]

2. Maybe this should have just been a post in AAIG??

:shrug:

Either way, when in doubt check the experts - http://www.mixedfolks.com/mfc/Welcome.html You can see the way all the glorious ways that having parents of different ethnicities manifests itself.

[FrenchieCat]

3. That's what I'm thinking.

Next time, subjects that I have doubts about (in terms of reactions) will be posted here instead.

[firedupdem]

4. Hey Frenchie! Haven't seen you in a while! How was graduation? n/t

[FrenchieCat]

6. Super Duper!

Totally Excellent!

Three day graduation!

Matt Lauer and his speech sucked though.
Energy Sec. Chu was great, however.

We got to go to Cape Cod for a couple of days and stay in one of my son-in-law's family friend's Cap Cod house. It was soooo Cap Coddie! LOL!
Restaurants galore and losta of good price-tag shops!

Here's a pic of me at the seashore with the hubby!



Here's the graduate snapped during the procession!

[firedupdem]

12. Wow!

That was nice! Thanks for the pics! You have a beautiful family and it includes a Harvard Grad! Glad you and hubby had some time to relax as well.

:fistbump:

[Kind of Blue]

19. That's too bad, as Omega minimo has railed against,

that being marginalized does not lead to as deep and full understanding as possible. But on the other hand, not being able to express yourself anywhere with a modicum of understanding I think is worse. This a good testing ground before posting to the larger community on issues concerning people of color, especially stuff many of us probably know or feel and just want to talk about. And for nothing else but a heads-up :rofl:, fasten your seat-belts, 'cause it's going to be a bumpy ride!

[omega minimo]

24. omega? Rail?

:blush: :yoiks: :spray:

It seems people are just on edge in general and looking to pick fights for whatever reasons. I don't believe the important issues should be the ones it's impossible to talk about openly (esp. as they are interconnected), but that's how it is. I get in trouble seeing The Big Picture. Even the skirmishes, over adopting from other struggles,' point to the fact that in the Civil Rights era, people and different groups worked TOGETHER.

We have been fractured as a nation and stuck in our demographic boxes. I learn from the disputes on DU, sometimes wading in too deep to find out, to understand what's underneath an apparent lack of understanding. Whether it's education, age, cultural references, upbringing or orneriness... one tendency on the board is just to shoot down something for the sake of it.

Silly me, thinking that we might be here to learn or listen or something. Meeting of the digital minds and all that. :spray:

One thing I learned recently is that history -- in our Orwellian times -- has been fractured too. Relevant to the mis/use of AA history. Rather than fluid, a continuum, a timeline, referencing and incorporating other times in a flow.... history is a series of images, icons, brands, slogans, marketing concepts, detachable and interchangeable based on some equally Orwellian logic that serves a particular moment, detached from context, disassociated from the reality of what's behind the postage stamp view.

[Kind of Blue]

27. Yes, Omega Railed.

:) Kind of like Atlas Shrugged. Hey, I think there may be an interesting correlation there, except that I don't agree with all of Rand's philosophy but I believe in yours.

[omega minimo]

28. You're too kind, Kind of Blue

:hi:

[omega minimo]

5. "God made us all in a rainbow of beautiful. I'm sorry you're not able to see it."

"How sad it must be to live in a two-dimensional world."

:wow:

I'm sorry -- what was the question?


My suggestion would be running posts through a word-processor, grade level thingie. Set it for what, 7th grade?

The following is clear to me, but whadda I know?

"I have always had a problem with evidence that Michael Jackson suffered from quite a bit of racial self loathing.....some of which I attribute to him not really appreciating his Blackness in terms of appearance....and that was never a good thing for the African-American community for him to so openly exhibit, IMO"

Nope, clearly no African features here



What I wanna know is WHERE DID THEY GET THOSE EARS? There's your smoking gun. 4 of 'em.


She "has incredibly full lips, and wonderfully round crystal blue eyes. She is of British and Swedish decent...
How do you explain that?" COME ON :freak:




I'm sorry, Frenchie. So much we just can't discuss, many of the important things. :grouphug:

[FrenchieCat]

7. Well, the kids kinda of look like him........after his operations!

But of course, only in my opinion.

[omega minimo]

9. and here's that stunning jawline with a

slightly different chin

[FrenchieCat]

10. Ain't that????

Yes it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIw5ZqC1ms

[omega minimo]

25. If Andre B

was any cuter, he would explode. Or we would. :blush: :woohoo:

[omega minimo]

8. .

.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Aye!

"I'm sorry, Frenchie. So much we just can't discuss, many of the important things."

[Kind of Blue]

13. Well, I jumped in as much as I

could in responding to a couple of numb skulls. There were just too many juicy ones to rebuke. But after I wrote up my response to your OP, the thread was locked!:grr: :grr: I really wanted to answer that guy who was just too concerned about the donor sperm and missed the whole point of the OP. Oh, my God, the woman who tried to compare her daughter's lips to that of the little girl blew me away :wtf:

Anyway, I don't understand after reading the title and the warning, how one could not know their sensibility will be impacted. You'd think the post had slapped their mother or killed their pet. But I do think it's a way to control how one thinks and feels. Many of us think it, feel it, know it because the dichotomy of MJ's self-loathing while trying to bring about racial harmony is ripe for discussion.

My darling 7year old bi-racial niece actually posed the question of whether he was pretending to be white because being white is better. Good grief, I can't imagine her going to school and spreading that. Poor kid had a pride-in-yourself talking-to like never before from the family. But mainly MJ is to be compartmentalized: love his music but he is not one that I want my kids looking up to for pride in ones bloodlines. Anyway, the kids have out figured you look "scary" when you try to look like someone else :)

He did maintain a confusing message that I think was unfair to all of our children he so much "cared" about.

[omega minimo]

16. You mean

these lips? Come on. ;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=6307&mesg_id=6339

[Kind of Blue]

17. That's right!

How could I miss the similarity? They're basically the same :sarcasm:

[FrenchieCat]

18. My youngest read that thread and fell into stitches when she got to that post.....

She said something like...."full? Yeah....might be cause so is the rest"

Not my fault! She's 19! :rofl:

[omega minimo]

21. Full

Full of sumthin :eyes:


It was interesting, cuz if people are serious. it shows how differently people OBSERVE.

[Number23]

26. "dichotomy of MJ's self-loathing while trying to bring about racial harmony is ripe for discussion."

You summed up a dissertation worth of material into one beautifully concise sentence.

You are EXACTLY right. A man who preached love between the races was literally eaten alive by his own racial self-loathing.

The weird thing about Michael is that he obviously loved black CULTURE but seemed to have no love for actually BEING black. It's like those pro-athletes with cornrows in their hair, gold teeth and pants falling off their asses but who would not give a sister the time of day if her hair was on fire.

Kind of Blue, your entire post is excellent and I would suggest that you post it in the larger forums but I can already hear the howls of "racist!!" from the more clueless amongst us.

[Kind of Blue]

29. Thanks, Number23!

And I absolutely loved Michael. When we were kids. You know I was supposed to marry Jermaine and my younger sister, Michael :rofl:

I still loved him when he had the chimp. Love still around when he went on the "date" with Brooke Shields AND the little guy (I forget his name). But I just can't believe how trying to understand human complexity and tragedy is dismissed by so many on Frenchie Cat's thread as racist and then swallow the literal white-wash he threw out there about the kids and what he physically did to himself. It's just not healthy.

I Totally agree about loving black culture and "have no love for actually BEING black." It reminds me of this thread about how MJ erased the color line in music, when we know beyond doubt that whenever a new form of music comes out of the culture, from decade to decade, it's seen as a threat. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5931632&mesg_id=5932505

Yeah, there will be cries from the clueless because as Kwassa said on this very thread, talking about race "is somehow racist in and of itself." And that's where we are and I'm sure the core reason for this group, which is a really good place :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

30. i wonder....

...if the reality was that he didn't "want to be black"? or if his issues had anything to do with not wanting to see his abuser (his father), when he looked in the mirror? as opposed to "having an issue with being a man of color?"

anyone familiar with adult children of abuse issues?
what seems like blatant self-hatred of physical aspects, may be emanating from childhood trauma at the hands of his father.

:shrug:

i'm just putting it out there as a possibility to consider....for whatever that's worth.

[Kind of Blue]

31. It's worth a lot.

It would be very interesting to learn more about the psychology of abuse and color in this case because it is so extreme.I'm sure a whole course could be easily devoted to it. I mean I can really understand the surgeries on the nose and even the implants to look less like his father, but the incredible skin bleaching seems to fall into another category.

Then again, perhaps it IS as simple as complete obliteration of the abuser. One of my favorite books is The Foundation Trilogy and the theory of mass action, mainly you can predict how masses of people would behave under certain conditions but the theory fails when it comes to predicting the action of an individual. So, yeah, it's easy to see why all of the children would eliminate their abusive father's nose, but to expect MJ to behave exactly as the other kids in keeping their skin tone does not mean he is not reacting to the same condition, just reacting differently from the group.

Hope that makes sense :think:

[bliss_eternal]

34. perhaps...

...i'm incredibly naive, but i took the man at his word--regarding having a rare skin condition (vitiligo).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo#Public_figures_with_vitiligo

http://www.examiner.com/x-4763-Seattle-Healthy-Living-Examiner~y2009m6d28-Vitiligo-Lupus-and-Michael-Jackson

Quote from article above:
Vitiligo patients with over 50% of their body may opt for depigmentation, to match the already depigmented areas.

the "looks" of his children is another issue altogether--which i'm quite uncomfortable discussing at this time. to be respectful of all, i will exit this thread now.

best,
bliss :hi:

[Kind of Blue]

35. Totally understand. I've got a dad with vitiligo and

a brother who is suffering from lupus for over 10 years now. I'm sorry about your discomfort about the kids, that was not my intention. I'm sure I responded directly to your consideration of Joe Jackson as the abuser, to which I agreed that it is more than a valid point and stated how I related to your point.
best to you, as well :)

[Raineyb]

14. Actually, didn't a woman on Olbermann say that MJ was NOT the biological father of the children

Something I might add pretty much figured out a while ago. Now the jackasses who constantly downplay actual racism is calling you racist for pointing out the bloody obvious?

[omega minimo]

15. Well yes

you gotta problem with that?

"...who constantly downplay actual racism is calling you racist for pointing out the bloody obvious?"

[Raineyb]

40. As a matter of fact I do

otherwise I wouldn't have referred to them as jackasses. Every time there's a discussion of racism there's the same posters who twist themselves in all kinds of knots to explain why it wasn't racist and how black people are being too sensitive and seeing racism where there isn't any. A good many of these same people were damn quick to jump down Frenchie Cat for voicing something that had been said at a lot of black dinner tables. I have a problem anytime those who downplay what black people show their asses and their hypocrisy. They have no credibility and frankly are just better off shutting the fuck up in my not so humble opinion. It seems to me that they have very little if any respect for actual black people and use such occasions to sneer in what can be seen as an acceptable venue.

Do you have a problem with that?

[kwassa]

20. some people don't understand the difference between racial and racist.

First, most white people will have no clue what you are talking about, so discussion on this topic will make them uncomfortable for NOT KNOWING and thereby label it racist.

Many discussions about race around DU get sunk by the false idea to discuss race is somehow racist in and of itself.

Micheal Jackson seemed to want to get as far away from black as possible, by any means possible, though. He spent a fortune trying to create the childhood he never had. It really makes want to know what Joe Jackson did to him. That is the mystery to me.

[omega minimo]

22. Yesterday a friend commented on how Joe jackson

abused Michael and made fun of his nose. I looked at a photo of the family and all the boys looked more like Joe, than Michael ever did or ever would have (without surgery). MJ looked more like his mother. FWIW.

[bliss_eternal]

23. Latoya at one time....

...spoke out about it (and as many adult survivor's of abuse from high profile families, was ridiculed and dismissed for doing so). I recall her speaking to his verbal cruelty, phyical abuse (and some things she said suggested) possible sexual abuse, as well.

I was furious after watching her interview w/talk show host, Byron Allen. Apparently he was the sixth Jackson brother no one talks about. :eyes: He spoke w/such authority on their family, completely dismissing Latoya's comments and calling her a liar on his show. He went on about how 'long' he knew the family, all the times he'd visited their home, what he didn't see when there, blah, blah.

As if an abusive parent always "acts out" in front of others. :eyes: And as if Byron Allen was some sort of "authority" on what dysfunction and abuse would look like. :eyes:

Typical apologist crap of a sycophant. :grr::mad:
Dude--you didn't live in that house!

Sadly, I believe later LaToya recanted, and her comments were blamed on the guy she married at the time. :eyes:

Jermaine's wife penned a tell-all quite some time ago. I read excerpts at one time, but didn't finish the book. Someone borrowed it and I never saw it again. lol. But given the pattern some of the Jackson son's were in, per what I read (of abuse, extramarital affairs, etc.) I believe Latoya's original accounts of abuse. Well, that and seeing how immensely wounded MJ was. :(

http://www.amazon.com/Jackson-Family-Values-Memories-Madness/dp/0787105228

Back to MJ and esteem:
Older photos I've seen from the 70's show MJ went through some rough periods of acne. Severe cystic acne, that certainly didn't help w/his fragile self-esteem issues.

On edit--
I recalled seeing MJ speak of Joseph's abuse during the Oprah interview and the famous Bashir one later.
Did some searching and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jackson

the Oprah interview (or excerpts) may be available on-line somewhere (if interested in fact-checking the wikipedia info. provided).
Janet also left home, and didn't allow Joseph to manage her career (hence, Control). She had a song that seems to speak of her father called, "You Need Me" (that few remember or talk about). It was the b-side to "Miss you much." Lyrics are available on-line (if interested).

Hope this is helpful (in answering what Joseph did to MJ, etc.).

:hi:

[Uzybone]

32. It wasn't racist

Saying a guys kids don't look like his kids is not racist.


DUers (who are 89% white) have a hard time discussing race.

[Number23]

33. "DUers (who are 89% white) have a hard time discussing race."

For REAL??! What??! Say it ain't so!!

I would never, ever, EVER have guessed that.

:)

[Karenina]

38. . .

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Number23]

36. You were right all along!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/28/debbie-rowe-michael-is-no_n_222027.html

ETA: And somebody's got your back! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5948748#5948874 :)

[FrenchieCat]

37. Thanks. I chimed in! LOL!

[SemperEadem]

39. I haven't read through the subsequent posts after mine, but FrenchieCat--did you see this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/28/debbie-rowe-michael-is-no_n_222027.html

apparently, those children were the result of a sperm donor and artificial insemination--the mother confirms it.

So, you were right on target in your post.

[ecstatic]

41. LOL! Something in your OP definitely struck a nerve

and it appears everyone felt comfortable jumping on the "this post is racist!!" bandwagon. :crazy:

I have no idea what triggered the response though... All the beautiful baby pics? :shrug:

[jmm]

42. I don't know how you could've worded it more carefully

While in high school I sent a week with my best friend and her little sister visiting their grandmother in Maine. Both of them were biracial and the grandmother was white. As we were driving home the little sister who was only about 10 at the time asked if everybody who lived in Maine was white since we only saw white people while we were there. Her grandmother told her that was a racist question. Some people are quick to cry racism when they have difficulty confronting a racial issue and I definitely sense that happening in the thread.

Of course I've also noticed over the years that the first few responses can dictate the tone of a thread. I posted an article years similar to this years ago before the law suit was filed and got flamed by people who didn't read the story and realize they paid extra to be escorted, the escort who barely spoke English pushed him away from her, and they delayed the initial search.

Another time when I posted this the first few people thought it was serious. Pretty soon people were ready to start a petition and write letters. I only think one person realized it was a joke before I started replying in the thread.

[kwassa]

43. I have the opposite problem from Michael.

My wife and I, an interracial couple, adopted a beautiful baby girl.

Both of her biological parents were African-American.

Virtually everyone who does not know about the adoption thinks she looks just like us.

[noiretextatique]

44. it's not racist at all...any fool can tell MJ is not the bio father

those poor kids were simply pawns in MJ's twisted racial/self-identity problems.

[Brewman_Jax]

45. I see why you locked it

That thread went downhill in a hurry. For most white people, racism is an individual problem of unenlightened, abnormal people, not a societal and culture problem. That being said, and having seen the pics and memorial highlights, those aren't MJ's biological children.

[Raineyb]

46. A lot of the discussion of MJ on this board has been making me extremely uncomfortable.

It's not necessarily that people don't have the nicest things to say. That always happens and frankly doesn't really bother me all that much. I think it's the zealousness of the disdain that I have a problem with.

I have my issues with Michael Jackson, I just don't recognize the man anymore. Frankly my discomfort with him started around "Bad" because I saw him as rejecting his own people. All those years of seeing him have children over at his house and you never saw a child of color it disturbed me. Frankly it seems that many aspects of his life were deliberate attempts to eliminate the blackness from his life. The irony of him seemingly turning his back on his own race while being credited for bringing the races closer together does not escape me one whit. That notwithstanding, I've not bothered to voice my ambivalence towards the MJ coverage. However, my ambivalence aside there are threads here that I find rather telling in the mindset of some folks.

I'll admit that there's a slight possibility that I'm seeing more than is actually there. Unfortunately, my instincts say no.

There's a couple of threads about Rep Sheila Jackson-Lee wanting to pass a congressional resolution about Michael Jackson and Pelosi, who has been known to be disrespectful of black folk at times, shot it down. Whatever, fine. But the comments that accompanied the two threads about this story has me thinking that there is more to this than the usual waste of congressional time.

Where was the outcry when Paul Newman was honored with a congressional resolution during the banking crisis? Oh right, there wasn't any. The comments of "he was just a pop star" are also popular or "he's been honored enough" seem to be not so subtle ways of dismissing the man. And the continual use of "Jacko" annoys the shit out of me. Apparently, they need not bother to have enough respect for the man to call him by his name. Were MJ not a black man would we see as much vitriol, as much blatant hypocrisy being displayed as I think I'm seeing in these threads? I think not. My contribution to these threads has been to point out the incongruity I'm seeing. I suspect that there will be a lot of folks playing dumb and pretending to to understand what I mean.

Pithy observation done for now.

Regards

[Brewman_Jax]

47. Agreed

Kinda sinks the "race, not class" claims and makes the "race, not class" racists look like the idiots they are.