Digital piano (under $1K) recommendations?

[XNASA]

Yamaha P60?

[Don Claybrook]

1. I have the P250

And I love it. But I've heard good things about the P60 and P90. If I'm not mistaken, the weighted, graded hammer action is the same on all 3 models. The action on mine is actually a little stiffer than my piano teacher's acoustic piano keyboard. Anyway, I'm impressed with Yamaha, and now you have my amateur opinion.

Whatever you get, enjoy it.

[XNASA]

2. It's not for me.

But I'll see if I can enjoy it anyhow.

Thanks.

[Don Claybrook]

3. I have a counter-question for you

Sorry to threadjack, but as I recall, you're a professional musician, and I'm anything but.

I'm guessing that you own (or at least have played) digital pianos along with acoustic pianos. How does a good digital piano compare to an acoustic piano, in your estimation?

I've never owned an acoustic piano (except when I was a kid my parents had an old, out-of-tune upright--and I don't remember much about it). So I'm wondering what I'm missing out on by not having the real deal. The volume isn't much of a consideration to me. I usually keep it fairly quiet, and I could always get a monitor if I needed hall-filling sound.

As I mentioned in the previous post, the resistance, or stiffness of the keys seems to be very firm. I have 128 notes of polyphony available.

Still, I'd love to own the real thing one of these days, when feasible and when I quit moving so much. No digital piano is a beautiful thing to look at, in my opinion. But there are many beautiful pianos. Also, I'd love to have wood keys instead of the plastic I have on mine.

As far as reproducing sound, what can Glenn Gould do on an acoustic piano that cannot be done on a digital piano?

I appreciate your time.

[XNASA]

4. I play about as well as say a John Lennon...so I'm not that good.

It probably doesn't make a big difference to a player like me. Digital or acoustic, it all sounds just as bad. I can play a little bit of everything, but I'm not trained on anything. Except accordion. I had a few lessons when I was young.

But there's nothing like a real piano. We had one in the house when I was a kid. The sound really fills the room instead of coming out of a single point in a speaker cab.

[ProfessorGAC]

5. Hey! I Can Help Here

I've had both for a million years. (Well not a million!)

I use an Alesis QS8.1 which is 88 key piano action, but a full synth, not just a piano. I bought it because i thought that it was the second best feeling action. (Surpassed, IMO, only by Kurzweil.)

I think the Roland action is too mushy to compare to a real piano action, and the Korg lacks any feel of escapement. (I will assume you know what that is. If not, let me know.)

The keys on the Alesis ARE wooden, covered in a plastic, which is one reason the keys feel so good.

My piano is a Baldwin console in the $8k price range, back when i got it. (5 or 6 years ago.) The keys feel superb for a vertical piano, and the escapement is pronounced. I really like it. If i had my druthers, i'd record on a real piano, but for a live gig, i think it's pompous nonsense, (unless one is doing solo piano or classical) to haul around a 600# piano when a digital would do.

But as to the differences, make no mistake. A digital piano is merely a very good substitute for the real thing. They're easier to move around, they don't go out of tune, they do more than one sound, but only a piano is a piano.

As to your Glenn Gould question. Remember that the controller which is under the keyboard can only send the equivalent of a MIDI signal to the keyboard. That means there are only 128 levels of loudness from dead silence to as loud as it can go. So, figure each increment is about 0.75dB. A piano has about 4 times this resolution. So, the nuance obtained from hammers hitting strings is far more profound.

Also, remember that very few (except the REALLY pricey ones) have more than about one sample for every 3 notes. That means that 2/3rds of the notes are actually sped up, or slowed down versions of the exact same sample. For many applications, that wouldn't matter much, but the actually definition of the tone suffers. So, again, not like the real thing.

Lastly, except in the VERY high line stuff, digital pianos have no way to create the phase interactions between the sets of released strings. There is no internal reflection off the soundboard bouncing around and making the other keys vibrate in sympathy. So, the richness of tone is simply not reproducible on $500 - $4,000 dollar digital pianos.

Glenn Gould could use that richness to soften the impact on certain notes or certain areas of the keyboard to create richness at low volume, and when using the piano, sustain, or sustenuto pedals create a pallet of tones that a digital piano would be hard pressed to reproduce.

Last point (I'll bet you're glad!): The visceral element of piano is extremely well served by an instrument that weighs, at least, more than 300 pounds. A digital piano, if played hard enough, will move a little. A piano won't. So, the solid feel of a real piano is also very hard to replicate when it would require so much added weight as to eliminate one of the huge advantages of digital.

Hope that helps some.
The Professor

[FredStembottom]

11. Excellent round-up of the differences!

One question: You say:

>>>>>Lastly, except in the VERY high line stuff, digital pianos have no way to create the phase interactions between the sets of released strings. There is no internal reflection off the soundboard bouncing around and making the other keys vibrate in sympathy. So, the richness of tone is simply not reproducible on $500 - $4,000 dollar digital pianos<<<<<<<

I know that almost all digi-pianos now sample (separate samples, used in "layers") all kinds of that soundboard stuff and add that into the overall sound. Is that not what you are referring to or do you mean that that kind of layering of samples is still inadequate?

Just curious......

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Yep, It's Still Inadequate

Here's why. The sample is a static snapshot of the soundboard and interactions. So, when the dyanmics change, all the system can do is filter those layered resonance samples. They're still the same samples, so the difference is only one of volume and high end (LP Filters). The phase interactions between the lifted strings and the soundboard are still not the same as live, because they can't change over time the way real strings do.

This is, however, a point of minutia. I use digital all the time, but it's still not the same, no matter how good the piano or speakers are. But, Don Claybrook had asked what could Glenn Gould do on an acoustic that he couldn't do on a piano. A guy that great could use the nuance of the piano that just wouldn't be there on digital. That, however, might not apply to 99.99% of the rest of us.

Last point: Remember that keyboards are set for a MIDI interface. So, the discrete steps of filter control, volume, (hence the sample strength), and interaction can only be 8 bit, or 256 steps from dead silence to the loudest signal. A real piano is only discrete in the sense that the human ear can only discern certain degrees of change. But, it's a lot more sensitive than 256 discrete steps.
The Professor

[leftofthedial]

6. I recently bought an M Audio Pro Keys 88

and I like it so far

you have to amplify it pretty extremely playing with a band I think. It might need a little beefing up if you're gigging hard, but I only have a few keyboard gigs a month these days. I got it and a hardshell SKB case for around $900 at Guitar Center.

[ProfessorGAC]

7. I Have A Set Of Their Recording Monitors

I like them a lot. They are really hefty, have plenty of power built in and sound really good. I've actually thought about getting another pair and using them as rear speakers on my surround sound system. They sound way better than my KLH's i use for rears today.
The Professor

[leftofthedial]

8. Interesting

I'm looking for some budget monitors for my project studio

[Beware the Beast Man]

9. M-Audio is a good brand all around.

I lean more toward the budget side of home recording, and at $99 the Keystation MIDI controller works great for me.

[FredStembottom]

10. I've tried them all and this Casio really amazed me!

Called: Casio PX100 Privia

I know, Casio is supposed to me cheap, toy stuff but they obviously have changed and now sport the best digi-piano going!

The touch is finally all-the-way-there. True acoustic piano feel.

I'm shocked. Shocked!:wow:

[XNASA]

12. Thanks all. My buddy finally went with a Yamaha P 140.

88 keys. Beautiful action. Sounds fantastic.

It's even got a strip of red felt running along the seam where the keys meet the body of the keyboard, just like a real piano.

The only weird thing about it is.......it only has RCA output jacks? You would think for that kind of $$$, that is might have balanced outputs.

[Tab]

13. RealPiano or Yamaha

I own a General Music RealPiano Pro II and love it. It's made to emulate a true piano, and replace teaching pianos, right down to multiple-string harmonies.

A friend of mine wanted to buy a non-acoustic (so he wouldn't wake his kids) that wouldn't turn off his music teacher either. The place where I got the RealPiano didn't have it at that time, so we went shopping. Compared to my RP, most of them were crap, until we got to the Yamahas - those were weighted right, they went soft when they should, they sounded out when they were banged on (iow, good dynamic range), they sounded like a true piano. He paid under $800, and this was just last year, and he loves it.

You can try a zillion pianos, but once you find one that plays like a true piano, you'll know it when you hear it, and won't go back. If you're a beginner, take someone along that can truly play, so they can tell the difference if you're not comfortable making that judgement call yourself.

[Lights_Out]

15. Yes

Casio and roland make some real nice mid-range pianoes under 1k