38% of U.S. Adults Use Alternative Medicine

[dawgmom]

Article from today's Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121001601.html

The most commonly used are dietary supplements and herbal products such as echinacea, flaxseed oil and ginseng, followed by deep-breathing exercises, meditation, chiropractic therapy, massage and yoga. Although fewer Americans were using certain diets and trying herbal remedies such as echinacea to cure colds, the popularity of acupuncture, meditation, yoga and massage grew.

and

Others said the findings were disturbing because most alternative treatments have not been scientifically validated and those that have been rigorously tested have overwhelmingly been found to be ineffective.

"They are either unproven or disproven," said Wallace Sampson, founding editor of the Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine. "Acupuncture is a placebo. Homeopathy is one step above fraud. It goes on and on. The fact that they are so widely used is evidence for how gullible large segments of our society are."

and

"There's a tremendous amount of money being wasted on this," said Stephen Barrett, who runs Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org), which monitors false medical claims. "That money could be used to do research on something that has been waiting in line to get money."

Nahin acknowledged that there are legitimate concerns about many alternative therapies. Dietary supplements are not regulated as closely as standard medication, leaving them more likely to be contaminated, for example. And some products can interfere with prescription drugs.

But Nahin said government-funded research into such therapies is useful, citing a federal study that concluded that St. John's wort was ineffective. After the results were released, use of the herbal remedy dropped sharply, he said.

"The research is working," he said. "It's doing what it's supposed to do, which is provide reliable information to the public so they can make decisions."

[Deep13]

1. "Homeopathy is one step above fraud."

That's generous.:eyes:

At the Cleveland Clinic, a pretty respectable establishment, there is a listing on the elevator floor directory for "accupuncture." I can't imagine what the legitimate purpose of sticking pins into ones skin might be.

[Warpy]

2. Want to know why? Look at the health care system!

Face it, if you're just a little bit sick with a cold or the flu, you get the OTC stuff and if it isn't working fast enough (and what does, when you're sick?), the next stop might be the health food store for some herbal caps. Even if you've got signs of a bacterial infection, you hope that stuff is going to work because if you've got insurance, chances are you can't afford the copays and if you don't have insurance, you are SOL, period, and don't see a doc unless you are ready to peg out.

The only good news in all this is that some research is showing echinacea is beneficial and that even the do nothing herbs can provide a placebo effect in those susceptible to it.

I hopped around on a broken ankle a whole weekend so I could go to an urgent care on Monday morning instead of the ER and save myself five hundred bucks I didn't have. This is what uninsured people do.

Our system is beyond cruelty. That people go to health food stores to cure themselves is certainly understandable in the face of such a totally callous system

[CanSocDem]

4. Why are you aware...

...of "...signs of a bacterial infection" and not of the transitory nature of cold's, flu etc.???

Could it be that you have been 'schooled' by television advertising?


Here's another good "alternative" health therapy....

Turn off your television.


.

[cosmik debris]

5. I actually look forward to the Saturday comics.

Your detachment from our reality is usually quite amusing.

[Silent3]

7. I see absolutely no sign in the post you responded to...

...that the poster is not "aware... of the transitory nature of cold's, flu etc.???"

I don't seem to recall very many TV ads describing the "signs of bacterial infection" such that people would be likely to become "schooled" about those signs via TV ads.

"Here's another good "alternative" health therapy.... Turn off your television."

Yes, because people were so much healthier and longer-lived before television. :eyes:

[Warpy]

9. Excuse me, Sparky

but I was an RN for 25 years. My recognition of the signs of life threatening super infection have nothing to do with your susceptibility to television advertising.

[CanSocDem]

11. Yes, you are clever...

...but thanks to your vaunted profession, cold's and flu have morphed into "life threatening super infection". Care to tell us how that happened...????



.

[cosmik debris]

12. I didn't know nurses had that much power.

That's a pretty strong union they have. Do they get stock options too?

[Orrex]

13. I know for a fact that Warpy personally engineered all of those superbugs

Moreover, she fed them on a diet of HFCS and GM turnips.

[John Gauger]

21. What the fuck are you talking about?

Superbugs are bacterial infections. Influenza and the common cold are viruses. Human activities have no effect on the mutation rate of viruses. Don't blame science, blame God.

[CanSocDem]

24. Guess what.

Excessive use of anti-bio tics resulted in viruses mutating to overpower the drugs. That's where super-bugs come from and there appears to be "humans" involved.

"Don't blame science, blame God."

For what....????

What the fuck are YOU talking about?

.

[cosmik debris]

27. That's your funniest post yet!

"...anti-bio tics resulted in viruses mutating..."

I'll bet you don't have a clue about how antibiotics affect viruses.

I just love it when you say such nonsense. If anyone was ever tempted to take you seriously, quotes like that would certainly convince them otherwise!

[John Gauger]

28. Antibiotics kill bacteria,

not viruses. It is in the nature of a virus that they mutate wildly every year. That is why there is no cure for the rhinovirus, the common cold. They mutate too quickly. This is also why there is a different strain of flu every year, resulting in the need for a new vaccine every year.

Bacteria, on the other hand, are organisms that are killed by antibiotics. Some of these bacteria are more resistant to certain types of antibiotics. For example, say you have a very common infection, staph (staphylococcus aureus.) And say the doctor administers penicillin, an antibiotic. When penicillin first came into use, all staph germs were susceptible to be killed by it, however, some took longer to die than others. If a high enough dose is administered for a long enough time, all the germs will be killed. If the dosage is cut off too early, however, those that survive longer will be differentially selected (thank you Mr. Darwin) and dominate the gene pool. Unfortunately, once the symptoms of staph go away, common sense dictates that you stop administering the antibiotic (it is poisonous, after all.) But, as was discovered well after the introduction of penicillin, those resistant germs were not all killed off, even after the symptoms had disappeared. The next time somebody caught the infection, it was a little bit harder to kill those resistant germs. Eventually a strain of staph became immune to virtually all antibiotics (Methycillin-resistant s. aureus - super-staph or MRSA.) MRSA is extremely contagious, extremely fatal, and almost entirely untreatable.

There are important reasons why an antibiotic doesn't kill a virus. It basically boils down to the fact that a bacterium is alive and a virus is not. Since it is not a living cell, it has no biological processes to interrupt and thus can't be poisoned. And it's not so much the overuse of antibiotics as the improper or incomplete use of them. Also, confusing a virus and a bacterium can be very dangerous. A mistaken diagnosis could result in the above process if a bacterium is present without showing any symptoms at the same time that a virus is showing symptoms, and an antibiotic is wrongly perscribed.

So untreatable viruses have nothing to do with human activity. It's just how things go.

That's what the fuck I'm talking about.

[Orrex]

29. I have it on good authority that Big Pharma created mutating viruses to ensure an annual profit

I read it online.

[John Gauger]

35. Interestingly, no response from CSD.

Apparently, in an argument facts don't matter.

[Odin2005]

31. Right, everything in my Microbiology class is a TV ad.

Get a shrink, already.

[Silent3]

6. Is there more or less woo in countries with socialized medicine?

I have a vague impression that while Europeans are as religious as Americans that there's still plenty of European woo to go around, including medical woo in countries with socialized medicine. I don't, however, have any stats to back up that impression.

[Warpy]

8. Light switch response

There will always be contrary people in any society who want to think they know more than the experts do, that is a given.

My point is that there would be less of a market for it in this country if more people had access to real health care.

[Silent3]

16. It would still be useful to know relative percentages...

...of people using "alternative medicince" in countries with socialized medicine. Also, to what extent various socialized systems provide or pay for alt-med.

While there's a lot that can be blamed on the US medical system, if there's no significant difference in the public interest and use of alt-med, and especially if some countries with socialized medicine have even more alt-med usage than we have here, it would be hard to conclude that financial difficulties caused by the US system are a significant factor encouraging alt-med here.

[John Gauger]

36. I think the government has an interest in debunking superstitious treatments.

Since so many of these treatments result in harm that has to be cleaned up with real medical treatment, they cost the government money. Denmark has a team of scientists working on ways to get the Danes to stop smoking, because such a huge piece of national revenue goes to treating sick smokers. I think something similar would crop up to fight superstitious treatments.

[John Gauger]

22. You're a NURSE and you have no healthcare?

God, I hate this country.

[edhopper]

3. There's a problem

with lumping in all Alternative Medicine together. Some of it is quackery and some is complimentary for good health. Yoga and massage are very beneficial for stress and general muscular-skeletal problems.
Is exercise and diet for heart disease or diabetes "alternative"?
It's good to distinguish between supposed cures, and things done to maintain health and well being.
Isn't fish oil a proven supplement that's very helpful? I've just been reading some interesting findings about cinnamon helping with high blood sugar.
I agree about Chiropractic, Homeopathy and Acupuncture.

[Warpy]

10. One of those things doesn't belong with the others

Chiropractic has been shown to shorten the period of disability after acute back injury. Acupuncture's effects within the brain have been confirmed.

Homeopathy is a scam.

[CanSocDem]

14. Amazing!!

How ones' PERSONAL experience defines ones' world.



http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/12/chiropractic-neck-manipulation-can.html


I had the personal experience of a chiropractic session that forgot to take x-rays of the spine they were attempting to manipulate....

I'm sure it was those pesky 'compression fractures' in the vertebrae that got in the way of full recovery. My decision to never return(to that therapy) was re-inforced a month or so later when a chiropractic patient died in Saskatoon.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1998/09/08/chiro980908a.html

"Acupuncture's effects within the brain have been confirmed."


And because western medicine finally developed the technology to measure this therapy, this makes us....what....smarter?...healthier?? Or just late to the party?


And you know "homeopathy" is a scam how...??? You tried it...???


.

[cosmik debris]

15. I think you've got the hots for Warpy!

You seem to be stalking her.

Trust me, she's not your type.

Me, on the other hand, I appreciate a Sunday appearance from our usual Saturday morning comic.

[CanSocDem]

18. Trouble is...

...despite your persistent reply's to my posts, you never have anything worth a response.

There's a few of you around here, but a thoughtful reply will always get my attention.


.

[cosmik debris]

20. My response to comedy is to laugh or applaud.

And that's exactly what you get from me.

Did you expect more?

[Silent3]

17. Personal experience is the measure of everything?

You had a bad chiropractic experience... chiropractic BAD!

If the poster tries homeopathy and it "works" (with no way to distinguish if a given problem would have gotten better on its own or not)... homeopathy GOOD!

Why don't you just will yourself to believe its all good?

[CanSocDem]

19. "Why...

"... don't you just will yourself to believe its all good?"



Because it isn't.

And the reason is because people believe more in technology than they do in their own miraculous abilities.

And these ideas are re-inforced by television advertising of pharmaceuticals and a contrived pathology of disease, aided and abetted by the fundamental tenet of capitalism....If it costs a lot of money it must be good.

A disturbing corollary to this is 'Anything too simple, or NATURAL or FREE, must be bad'.

I have a hard time deciding 'who' is the skeptic around here.

[Silent3]

23. But isn't all just as good as you want it to be because you create your own reality?

Can't you just create a world in your mind where unnatural stuff is good too, where HFCS cures cancer, and everytime a prescription for Plavix is sold an angel earns his wings?

[Odin2005]

32. Is that a STRAWMAN I see?

:rofl: :crazy:

[cosmik debris]

33. That's SO CUTE!

Saying that people who doubt your "miraculous abilities" are not skeptics.

But those who believe your fairy tails are truly skeptics.

I have come to look forward to Saturday mornings to see what other hilarious comments you will make. Is there any way we could talk you into sharing your humor with us more often?

[Warpy]

25. Search the archives, Sparky

both studies have been posted in the health forum.

Yer gonna have to repair some of that panes in that glass house, Sparky, the weather is getting too chilly to cope with the drafts.

[CanSocDem]

26. And "yer" point is....????

"Both studies...."

What are you talking about. I didn't post any studies.

But you have the name calling down pat. Let me know when you get around to reading my post.

A R.N., eh....????

Excuse my skepticism.

.

[John Gauger]

34. Let me ask you something.

Do you refuse all medical treatment whatsoever? Let's say that you collapse at the mall and paramedics take you to the hospital and a doctor tells you you need your appendix out or you will die. What would you do? Would you just scoff at the medical profession and go home? Just curious.

[CanSocDem]

37. Glad you asked...

...and the answer, as I've mentioned before, is no, I do not refuse ALL medical treatment. I'm still at the stage of avoiding medical emergencies. That is, I do what I can with my attitude toward life in general. I don't anticipate disease; I expect to be healthy. I don't anticipate chaotic physical threats or random violence. I trust in my ability to move forward, gracefully.

13 years ago I had major surgery. I would have died without it I suppose, but when I went under anesthesia I didn't really give a shit. I see it as an 'medical experience' and not as a renunciation of my beliefs. I use Advil to get a good nights sleep and I still believe in anti-biotics.

On the bright side: Six years ago I told a cancer surgeon to buzz off when he wanted to do a biopsy of my lung. Turns out, I was right.

.

[John Gauger]

38. How do you decidce when to trust the medical profession and when not to?

You refused the biopsy, and, luck of the draw, you were okay. But what about like I said, you had appendicitis? Do you just go with your gut?

[CanSocDem]

39. It isn't "luck"...

...it's called INTENT. If you can convince me why some people have 'good' luck and others, only 'bad' luck, then I might agree that we exist at the whim of mathematical chaos. I might even subscribe to your faith in the medical profession.

However, I don't. In my experience, I found that "intent" and intuition, work as well as the various theories and therapies offered up by science and religion. Of course it means that I have to be oblivious to the well-intentioned souls who warn me of the boogeyman around every corner. So, forgive me if I'm not concerned about the dangers of falling victim to a mis-diagnosis by a shopping mall para-medic, right smack dab in the middle of shopping......all my attention is on what I can do for my nieces and nephews, to make them feel better. Catch my drift....???

I'm in control of my life, my health and my experience. Once I asserted that control, it became clear who and how was out to subvert that control. Now that I'm in my 60's, I'm comfortable with my choices.

.

[John Gauger]

40. No, I don't catch your drift at all.

You could have had cancer. You blew of a surgeon who wanted to biopsy. If you had had cancer, you would have died.

I'm not talking about the paramedic. I'm talking about a doctor. If the doctor tells you you will die if you don't have your appendix out, do you tell him to get fucked?

And all your attention is on your nieces and nephews? What the hell does that mean? That you don't care whether you live or die?

[CanSocDem]

41. Close....

"And all your attention is on your nieces and nephews? What the hell does that mean? That you don't care whether you live or die?"

What it means is that if I'm in 'a mall'(your scenario), this time of year, I'd be looking for gifts for my "nieces and nephews", focused on making them happy and not on the fragility of my own appendix.(your metaphor)

Of course I care whether or not I die. My 'intention' is that I live. I don't waste time (that could be better spent making someone else happy) worrying about all the things that could kill me.

The thing about saying "no" to cancer surgeons is that you don't give them a chance to make a cancer patient out of you. It takes courage but as the old chinese saying goes:

Courage Has Unbelievable Power.


.

[semillama]

42. Actually, one of the things about saying "no" to cancer surgeons

is that you also give yourself the chance to be painfully dead from cancer.

[John Gauger]

43. So all those doctors and nurses and EMTS are wasting their time worrying about

whether people live or die? All they would have to do is make sure everyone 'intends' to not get sick and die? Is all their hard work in med/nursing school is wasted, too? Doesn't it matter that medical professionals honestly intend to keep people healthy?

All the cancer in the world is the result of- what, exactly? Masochistic intentions? Or is it that fact that all those well-meaning doctors work in wicked capitalist hospitals?

No matter what goes on inside your head, those of us who live in reality know that surgeons don't create cancer patients- cancer makes cancer patients. And there's nothing courageous in turning down a legitimate medical test. Facing facts takes courage. The courageous and mature thing to do would have been to take the test and accept the results whether you liked them or not. Any coward can retreat into his own little world where nothing can hurt him and he is a hero.

It may comfort you to pretend that you could never get cancer and that we are all degenerate sheep blinded by our own greed and dogma. That doesn't change the facts. Do you think the rest of us wouldn't like to live in a world without disease? Sadly, that's not an option. Science studies disease because learning how the body works- as opposed to just making it up as we go along- is the only way to make people better. It's not perfect and it never will be. Researchers make mistakes; doctors can act out of malice; corporations can act out of greed.

None of those problems change the fact that medicine works. It relies on disinterested investigation of the facts and has vigorous corrective machinery built into its process. Your delusions of courage and your pithy Chinese proverb might make you feel better, but science has vastly improved that standard of living of literally billions of people. I don't consider that a waste of time.

[CanSocDem]

44. Really!!??

"The courageous and mature thing to do would have been to take the test and accept the results whether you liked them or not."


This is exactly the attitude that's responsible for all the shit in your life. Maybe you're doing fine, but it sounds like you are too wrapped up in other people's beliefs.

Are my beliefs about medical science causing you particular harm?? Am I undermining the grand illusion you are promoting, that only trained medical personnel can keep us alive??

Anyway, if it is as it sounds, and you are a medicine man, don't hold your breath waiting for money from me.

I'd rather die than give over my life to someone else.


.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moggie]

45. My mother died of cancer

After the diagnosis, it was over pretty quickly, and it turned out that she'd known for quite some time that something was wrong, but avoided seeing a doctor or talking to anyone because she didn't want to face up to it. I still love her, and to be honest I can see myself maybe going the same way when my time comes. But I hope I'll have the honesty not to pretend that sticking my fingers in my ears and singing a happy song is courage.

[John Gauger]

48. It's sad.

CSD seems to think it's some kind of vindication that he didn't have cancer. It's like a soldier thinking himself a hero after running away from an enemy; suddenly, the other guy accidentally kills himself. "Where's my medal, Sarge?" But he just got lucky. If he had had cancer, he would have died. It's sad. Could you imagine going through life thinking happy thoughts are the cure to any ailment? That's a disaster waiting to happen.

OTOH, maybe I should call the Mayo Clinic and tell them that the treatment for terminal lung cancer is sugar plumbs and gumdrops.

[varkam]

46. You know what is scary? I actually think CSD actually believes that. Like actually.

[edhopper]

30. Chiropratics are good masseurs.

Their "medicine" is based on a pseudu-science of spinal manipulation that is not based on real physiology.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html

The effects of Acupuncture are minimal. Best control study has the analgesic effect at 52% of patients compared to 48% in a control/placebo group.

[TZ]

49. *titter*

Great thread. I love the fact that anti-biotics are the reason that viri mutate! OMG, thats junior high school biology!
I'm also waiting for someone to explain why without me being aware of it my bone marrow started producing double the amount of platelets it had been doing in the span of four months. (700 in Oct 07 to 1500 in Feb 08). I must have dreamed it up, right?

[cosmik debris]

50. It makes me wonder...

Why Darwin is so slow to claim this victim.

I guess he is just enjoying the show!