What are your thoughts on crop circles?

[Orrex]

In the interest of honest disclosure, I will state that all of them are human-made, not least because the original hoaxers came forth years ago and revealed their methods.

Nevertheless, I understand that some people see them as something of greater significance. What are your thoughts?


Bearing in mind the venue in which I ask the question, I won't rebut or debunk any responses you care to offer, and I thank you in advance for your input.

[I Have A Dream]

1. I haven't any strong feelings about them.

As with many subjects like this, I don't feel as though I need to come to a decision. It's just interesting to think about.

Although some people have admitted to creating them, that doesn't mean that they've all been created by humans. I understand that Occam's Razor supports the explanation that humans created them all, but I'm not really an adherent of Occam's razor.

However they were created, I think that they are amazing works of art.

[Orrex]

2. I agree with that last part, certainly!

Especially the two recent ones featuring the dragonfly and jellyfish. Amazing execution!

Thank you for your reply. :hi:

[LaurenG]

3. I think they are really cool. I was told/read heard years ago that

they were created by nature spirits/elementals. I am inclined to admire them for their artistry and I appreciate whomever is creating them. I don't know how they get there but I'm skeptical of all explanations. In my mind though anything is possible.

[Orrex]

7. Cool--thanks for chiming in!

Do you know if there are any/many examples of crop circles dating from before the pranks of the two original human hoaxers?

I'd be curious about that; perhaps I should look it up...

[omega minimo]

81. Perhaps you should

What are you playing at?

[northernlights]

4. my understanding is that they are *not* all human-made

I haven't studied them closely, but friends of mine have. My understanding is that there are obvious differences between those that are human-made -- the stalks are broken and trampled -- and those that are not. That the stalks are bent, none are broken, and biochemical changes have been detected in the areas of the bend of the stalks. As I recall, they also have occasionally appeared in snow covered fields (obviously no longer "crop" circles) in far northern areas of Europe, with no footprints in or out.

It's been some years since I read about them, but my friends who were studying them had visited a brand new one while traveling to England. While there, a large group of people spent a night out in a field watching and waiting for one to appear. One did -- silently, in the field *behind* them.

My friends heard about it the next morning, so headed out to visit it. There was a very long line of people walking out as they were walking in. They ran into, and chatted briefly with, Linus Pauling as he was leaving(this was about 2-3 years before his death).

[Orrex]

8. Neat story!

I've seen a couple of shows about the phenomenon, but none recently. I've heard speculations about the biochemical changes and the broken vs. bent aspect, but the programs gave nothing really conclusive.


Thanks for answering. :hi:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

105. I'm sorry. Should have read "This is unbelievable."

I have asked Mods to delete the shouty Fword. They may get around to it. Thank you for your patience -- with me!

[Psychic Consortium]

5. They are not all man made.

Some are. Most are not.

According to many reputable scientists, it is not possible
for humans to have made many of the circles. The physical damage
to the crops cannot be accounted for by human standards. There
are not foot prints in or out of the crops. And the mathematical and artistic complexity of the circles could not have been done in the dark of night in a few hours by a human.

The question to be asked is not if they are man made or not.

But who is making them and why?
That is the real question at this time.

Perhaps the talented clairvoyants on this forum
would like to tackle this question.

[Orrex]

9. Is there a handy well to tell the man-made ones from the rest?

And do you believe that there's some significant spiritual/mystical component?

[Psychic Consortium]

13. Comments

Scientists are able to determine which circles
are man made and which are unlikely to have been created by humans.

You would no doubt greatly enjoy reading some of the
extremely well written and knowledgeable books penned by
scientists with impeccable credentials on this topic.

PC has an interest in crop circles.
More later.

[omega minimo]

83. There is also an aesthetic sense of assessing

The recent "dragonfly" and "squid" have been unconvincing.

[conscious evolution]

6. Great art

They remind me of buddhist sand mandelas in how they are made then allowes to be destroyed.An excellant depiction of the impermanance of reality.

[Orrex]

10. That's a nice assessment

I don't suppose that the original two hoaxers had that in mind, but it seems to fit!

[conscious evolution]

12. The inhabitants of planet Hoaxia are known

:hide:

[Orrex]

11. Edit to the OP

I realized too late that I mistyped the first sentence. It should have been:

In the interest of honest disclosure, I will state that I believe that all of them are human-made, not least because the original hoaxers came forth years ago and revealed their methods.

I mistakenly omitted the bold/italic part from the OP. Sorry for any confusion.

[liberalmuse]

14. I have the jellyfish on my desktop at work.

The photo was very good quality and that has to be one of the coolest crop circles I've seen. :shrug:

I just can't picture two old guys with a rope and a board creating some of the more elaborate crop circles. Some of them are near perfect. It's lovely art that makes one ponder, though I feel sorry for the people who own the crops.

I'd thought of maybe lasers. You could probably type in some formula on a computer and fire off a laser to create the images, but I couldn't tell you how. From space? Then there are those large, black, silent triangular blimps seen floating around from time to time, which are likely government craft. Who knows? I worked with a few scientists (I was their admin) who studied crop circles, UFO's and cattle mutilations for a little over 3 years. I'm more clueless going out than I was coming in. There really is no easy explanation for how some of them were created, or the biochemical changes found within the bent (not broken) stems of the crops.

[Richard D]

15. Right on

"I just can't picture two old guys with a rope and a board creating some of the more elaborate crop circles. Some of them are near perfect. It's lovely art that makes one ponder, though I feel sorry for the people who own the crops."

The artistry on most of the crop circles is amazing and is often based on mathematical models. Anyone who could create these circles so beautifully, I'd imagine would also be creating other art and/or profiting in some way from their crop circle art. Or in jail. A lot of loss to the farmers where the circles appear.

[MorningGlow]

16. I have no problem believing that they are not of human origin

The circles that are not manmade stand out as quite different from the ones that are manmade:

- Crops are not harmed. Although the stalks are flattened and even interwoven (try that with a board and a rope), they continue to grow and eventually return to their upright position, still unharmed. If it weren't for the people trooping through the fields to see them, farmers wouldn't lose a penny in profits.

- The circles' complexity boggles the mind. I'm talking not only the complexity of the design, but also the swirls and counterswirls within the swirls, the alignment (some have been aligned to solstices, the location of the sun on a particular day when sunspots are predicted by the design of the circle, etc.), and how quickly the complex circles appear (couldn't be created by humans in an instant, in total darkness, with no-one catching them, which has happened--as NorthernLights said--I read about that).

- The magnetic charge in the circles as opposed to outside the circles.

As for the two guys who claimed to have created the circles, I have read that they were unable to recreate some of the complex designs that they had taken credit for--and even couldn't recreate some of the simpler designs without hours and hours and HOURS of work. One book I read intimated that they were just harmless, fun-loving, pub dwellers who were paid off to say that they were behind the circles, although of course that's one author's postulation. I don't know if it could ever be proven, especially now that one of the men has died.

[KittyWampus]

26. I figure if Nature can engineer snowflakes, Nature can design crop circles. There is intelligence

involved. But I don't need to imagine that intelligence being based in any type of personal being.

[Celebration]

17. If they are all man made

I think they are running a hell of a risk getting sued for a pretty penny by the property owners. I would be really ticked off having my crops destroyed that way, and would pursue all legal means to get adequate compensation.

Having said that, I think they are pretty cool, since they aren't my crops, no matter who makes them.

Plus I feel that there would be anomalous properties in the crop circles whether they were man made or not, just because of the mixture of shape and organic material. That needs to be studied a whole lot more. Did you know that many of the mounds that were made throughout the Americans were used in ceremony with seeds, to make them more viable? And there have been studies on that and the fertility of seeds. Unfortunately, most scientists just ignore evidence that is contrary to what their view of the world is.

There have been crop circles for many, many years, but it is only recent that they have gotten so involved. Most of the really old ones were quite rudimentary.

One thing that puzzles me is the interest of the British military in these things. They are always buzzing them with helicopters. That I don't get, and it does make me a bit suspicious that there is something mysterious involved with these things.

Clueless here.

[NJCher]

18. messages via math in crop circles

Re the British military, there is a UFO flap going on now in England, with lots of UFO sightings. There are some interesting photos up at The Sun, if anyone wants to learn more.

Northern Lights is right. The two old guys with the sweeper tool are incapable of flying all over the world to do all these crop circles, but even more convincing that it's not just them is the effect on the grass or crop in which they are formed. We have no technology that can create that effect on the grain.

Furthermore, many crop circles are analyzed by mathematicians and there are quite a number of them that have conveyed messages. Some of the messages predict future events, such as earthquakes. That is the case with the one that appeared around 15 miles from my mom's house. This crop circle portrayed a triangle that, when imposed over a map, predicted a series of earthquakes. The odds that this could be chance are astronomical, no pun intended. And yes, the earthquakes happened. Two of the earthquakes were nine years apart, which will tell you how far in advance whoever makes the crop circles can see.

One last perspective on the messages in the crop circles: I was reading Graham Hancock last night on the topic of the pyramids. On the surface, we think of the pyramids as places that the Egyptian kings had built for themselves. But upon studying them, one finds it isn't quite that simple. There are all kinds of mathematical formulas (some of which were not even discovered by mankind until much later, like during Greco-Roman times) that were used in the construction of the pyramids. One does not, however, discover this until analyzing the pyramids and how they were constructed.

It's the same with the crop circles. On the surface they're just pretty messages but if anyone cares to read and study them, one will find there's much more to them.


Cher

p.s. I just Googled "mathematical secrets pyramids" and there is some good reading it turns up!

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orrex]

20. Now, now.

The question was asked in polite sincerity, and you mock my frame of reference and a reasonable, possible explanation I put forth? Why do you do this?

Also, I don't know what "check in the mirror and see if you have something written on your forehead" might mean, but I can't imagine that it's flattering. What are you trying to imply about my intelligence and/or ability to reason?


Do you have anything constructive to offer, or is your sole purpose to deride me, knowing that I won't attack you here because I recognize that I am a guest of this Group?

I question your tone and your intent, but I'll leave it at that.

[CanSocDem]

21. It's not....

...your 'frame of reference' I was mocking in my previous post. I've been doing that for some time now, in case you hadn't noticed.

What I found incongruous with your vaunted "skepticism" was accepting, as 'proof', the word of the country louts. You call that "reasonable"???



"Do you have anything constructive to offer, or is your sole purpose to deride me, knowing that I won't attack you here because I recognize that I am a guest of this Group?"

My earlier post was "constructive". As usual, you missed that part and quickly became defensive and belligerent. I'm as much of a guest on this forum as you are; the only difference between here and where you usually hang out is the 'frame of reference', and you will never be ridiculed for your POV....no matter how...

Over here, intuition is as important as are the laws of physics.

.

[Tumbulu]

22. Now about those "English Farmers"

have you watched the BaaStuds video showing the sheepdogs getting the sheep to make all these amazing pictures? Have you seen the incredible rice crop pictures that people make in Japan by doing incredibly accurate transplanting of different colored rice varieties?

People are capable of wonders when working with plants and crops. Just because the crop circles are fabulous and intricate does not mean that people did not make them. People love to make beauty more than they love to destroy and make war; the evidence is that we actually have society and the arts despite the strong destructive element in the human species.

I do not know who makes all these circles. I love the pictures of them and if people make them, then I send them my compliments. But enough disparaging of farmers, please.

[CanSocDem]

23. Yes, well.....

This I agree with completely:

"People love to make beauty more than they love to destroy and make war; the evidence is that we actually have society and the arts despite the strong destructive element in the human species."

And when it comes to 'the arts', perhaps the most destructive element is its'
commercialization. Creativity is marginalized, success is measured by market values.

The same can be said of scientific research. Creativity is marginalized, success is measured by market values. Researching 'crop circles' would require a shift of consciousness that wouldn't be cost effective. New assumptions would have to be made that would threaten the existing paradigm that is keeping us all in the dark.

My cousins who are "english farmers" seem to spend a lot of time in their local pub. I thought I was being respectful by not mentioning, that the so-called 'hoaksters' were interviewed in a pub and did all their intricate sketches and planning, well lubricated on their local lager.

Just sayin'.....

.

[steven johnson]

24. Guardian: How to how to make your own crop circles

How to make a crop circle

• Prepare a detailed drawing. Keep it simple. Circles and triangles are relatively easy to make. Advanced curves, spirals, straight lines, fractals and pictures can take a long time to mark out and work.

• You will need helpers; decide who will do what and in what order the image needs to be constructed.

• You will need a marked rope or a 100ft measuring tape to mark out the site, and a foot-wide wooden board about 4ft long to do the flattening. The board should have ropes attached to each end so you can loop it over your neck.

• Ask permission from a farmer and be prepared to pay compensation. A crop circle can cause hundreds of pounds of damage.

• Wait for a moonlit night when it is dry. Enter the field by the tramlines, or marks left by tractors.

• Mark out the field carefully. Some circle makers use sticks or poles but these can leave tell-tale holes of human intervention.

• Put the rope round your neck, with the board on the ground in front of you; press down with your right foot, move it forward, press it down again, and so on.

• Leave the field the same way you entered.

• Hide your tracks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/05/ruralaffairs

[Why Syzygy]

25. Completely open minded.

I did a :google: Image search for: crop circle hoax (try it)

One site writes that it is "irrational" to assume they are all hoaxes. That's the only thing I can AGREE with. I don't believe that all of them are made by pranksters. That doesn't rule out all "man made", if you know what I mean. And, then of course one site writes that they are CLEARLY all hoaxes. x( That's the one thing I can DISAGREE with. The rest is all up for grabs.

[get the red out]

27. The original "hoaxers" were a hoax

Those guys couldn't have done all that is attributed to them.

People have witnessed crop circles being formed in seconds.

There have been legends of what we know of as crop circles that go back long before modern times and "hoaxers".

The plants involved have been studied and often found to have strange properties.

Why do you ask since all of them are human made and it is a completely closed case for you? What are you seeking?

[Orrex]

28. I think I was fairly clear about what I am seeking

And my opinion alone shouldn't change yours or anyone else's. However, I am very receptive to evidence, so if someone can demonstrate to me that my opinion is in error, I will be happy to revise it.

I understand that many people ascribe spiritual/mystical significance to these circles, and this interests me, in large measure because that significance is lost on me.


Additionally, I would greatly value a link to footage of these crop circles being formed in seconds. That would go a long way toward changing my mind.


Also, can you point me to a good online source for information about ancient crop circles? I could Google, of course, but that would defeat the purpose of discussion.

[rumpel]

29. Here is a famous one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDidNzQ12ZY

I have to check whether I can find the actual people that filed it.

http://www.cropcircles.cc/ufos-forming-crop-circles-caught-on-tape.html

same tape with more info

[Orrex]

30. Well, I have to say that's pretty neat

The "UFO" part of the vid doesn't look especially convincing, but it's a cool effect in any case.

Thanks for the links!

[arikara]

32. Freddy Silva wrote a good book about them

he's studied them for years. He claims that its easy to tell the hoaxed ones from the real ones, and explains how. If you really look at the pictures of them its pretty obvious. The genuine ones are intricate and have a mystical beauty, the hoaxed ones look lifeless, often even crooked and sloppy. The researchers can tell the real ones as explained in earlier posts by the way the grain is bent and still living, not broken and dead. Freddy Silva also talked about flying over an area in a plane then back again a few minutes later and a crop circle appeared in the intervening time. I can't give you a link as I know this from a presentation that I was fortunate enough to be able to attend.

[get the red out]

35. unfortunately

I listen to pod casts daily regarding the paranormal, and have read books through the years so googling for links would be quite tedious. After-all you asked for our thoughts not google links for proof to convince you. So I just jotted down bits of information I had gleaned from numerous sources through the years. I am sure much of it is readily available.

[Orrex]

39. Fair enough, but you asked why I asked, so I told you.

[Why Syzygy]

41. Simple as wiki ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle

History

The earliest recorded image resembling a crop circle is depicted in a 17th-century English woodcut called the "Mowing-Devil". The image depicts the devil with a scythe mowing (cutting)<10> a circular design in a field of oats. The pamphlet containing the image states that the farmer, disgusted at the wage his mower was demanding for his work, insisted that he would rather have "the devil himself" perform the task. That night, the crop appeared as if it were on fire, then in the morning a circular pattern had mysteriously appeared.
1678 pamphlet on the "Mowing-Devil"

A more recent historical report of crop circles was republished (from Nature, volume 22, pp. 290–291, 29 July 1880) in the January 2000 issue of the Journal of Meteorology.<11> It describes the 1880 investigations by amateur scientist John Rand Capron:

"The storms about this part of Western Surrey have been lately local and violent, and the effects produced in some instances curious. Visiting a neighbour's farm on Wednesday evening (21st), we found a field of standing wheat considerably knocked about, not as an entirety, but in patches forming, as viewed from a distance, circular spots....I could not trace locally any circumstances accounting for the peculiar forms of the patches in the field, nor indicating whether it was wind or rain, or both combined, which had caused them, beyond the general evidence everywhere of heavy rainfall. They were suggestive to me of some cyclonic wind action,..."<12>

In 1966, one of the most famous accounts of UFO traces happened in the small town of Tully, Queensland, Australia. A sugarcane farmer said he witnessed a saucer-shaped craft rise 30 or 40 feet (12 m) up from a swamp and then fly away, and when he went to investigate the location where he thought the saucer had landed, he found the reeds intricately weaved in a clockwise fashion on top of the water. The woven reeds could hold the weight of 10 men.

There are also many other anecdotal accounts of crop circles in Ufology literature that predate the modern crop circle phenomena, though some cases involve crops which were cut or burnt, rather than flattened.<13><14>

Crop circles shot into prominence in the late 1970s as many circles began appearing throughout the English countryside. The phenomenon of crop circles became widely known in the late 1980s, after the media started to report crop circles in Hampshire and Wiltshire and corresponding phenomena were reported from locations as diverse as Penrith in Australia and Minnesota in the United States. To date, approximately 12,000 crop circles have been discovered in sites across the world, from locations such as the former Soviet Union, the UK and Japan, as well as the U.S. and Canada. Skeptics note a correlation between crop circles, recent media coverage, and the absence of fencing and/or anti-trespassing legislation.<15> However, proponents point to the simple profusion of these events prior to and continuing after the decline in media coverage as rendering the amateur crank phenomenon unlikely.

[northernlights]

42. ongoing research on changes to plants and soil

BLT is a nonprofit that has been studying them for some years now. All but one of their researchers is a masters or PhD in related field.

http://www.bltresearch.com/plantab.php

[NJCher]

31. wonder who could be making those crop circles

Hmmm.




Cher

[HOLOS]

43. NJ Cher ... RIGHT ON!! First Contact Calling Card For Us ...

[Oak2004]

33. I think they're man-made (which does not detract from their ability to inspire others)

I may have taken to spending time here recently (largely to avoid the ugliness erupting elsewhere in DU), but I often feel like I have a foot in both the skeptical and the spiritual camps.

I don't pretend to know everything there is to know about crop circles, but I feel pretty confident that they are made by humans.

When I'm ill, I seek out medical doctors in preference to alternative healers, though as someone well versed in herbalism, including scientific studies of efficacy, I'm not averse to choosing an effective herb under circumstances which warrant the use of an over the counter medication (i.e., for serious conditions, I prefer the refined and tested over the minimally tested and of uncertain potency).

I consider myself a mystic, and yet I think the best possible background for mysticism is a strong grounding in science and reason, because when you take a step into that which stands outside of reason, you had best have some tools to distinguish between that which truly belongs to the realm of spirit, and that which is fantasy or wishful thinking or mere psychosis. I think much, maybe most, promulgated under the name of spirituality is more nearly fantasy, and some of it has people running in circles, going nowhere. When I see people running aimlessly in circles, wrapped up in a lot of spiritual delusion, if they seem to be open to correction, I'll speak up. Otherwise, there's nothing less productive than crusading against the sincerely held, if nonsensical, views of others.

Once upon a time ago I didn't consider myself a mystic, I considered myself an atheist and a skeptic. What changed? I had a series of experiences I could not account for except to acknowledge that there was something to spirituality. That something may well be, as a skeptic might argue, random neurological processes -- I don't think it is, but even if it were it would make no difference. As a mystic I'm in the "how" business, not the "why" business.

I am also a former professional astrologer (which is how I came to poke my head into this place, notice that the regulars were decent, friendly, people, and decide to hang out a bit). This surprises people who know I also once pursued a degree in astrophysics. It shouldn't. The two fields are utterly unrelated. The position of the planets may as well be the position of fallen maple leaves lying on a deck, or the splotches made by a dripping ice cream cone. All are the product of the laws of this universe acting on matter. Any can serve as the starting point for the human mind to look inward and see what it can discern. Though when talking about astrology I use the language of astrology, that planet X governs object or behavior Y, I don't literally believe that, and, I think, neither do the more discerning of astrologers. In fact, the very reason I gave up working as an astrologer is because I came to the conclusion that what most people think an astrologer can do for them isn't really there, that the maximum benefit astrology can deliver to an individual would be for the individual to study astrology, rather than to get a reading, and since the world wasn't at my doorstep begging to be taught the symbols and patterns and art of astrology, there wasn't anything more for me to do as a professional astrologer.

And that's where those crop circles come in. Given what I have learned my presumption about a new crop circle is that it is a clever work of human art in a temporary medium, much like the sand mandalas drawn by Buddhist monks.Like the sand mandalas (or for that matter any art) they have the potential to inspire.

[get the red out]

36. Cool path

You have a cool path! I understand completely going from unbelief to some form of belief or quest. My parents religion left me agnostic at best but in the end I came to seek something. If I said I knew what it was I KNOW I would be wrong, LOL. I just get new ideas from time to time.

Since I listen to pod casts of radio shows and don't do well at recalling all the books I have read through the years, I can't site a source on this, but I remember hearing an interview on time with some folks that had set out to create a crop circle, and they ended up having some interesting energy/spiritual experiences from the circle they created. In the end they said that they wondered if they had decided on their own to create it, or if they were somehow influenced to do so.

I theorize that some circles are of completely unknown origin, while some are of human origin. But that interview threw something else entirely into the mix.

[Psychic Consortium]

38. You make some excellent points:

PC agrees wholeheartedly with your comments below.
However PC suggests you review the scientific literature
on crop circles.

You wrote: I consider myself a mystic, and yet I think the best possible background for mysticism is a strong grounding in science and reason, because when you take a step into that which stands outside of reason, you had best have some tools to distinguish between that which truly belongs to the realm of spirit, and that which is fantasy or wishful thinking or mere psychosis. I think much, maybe most, promulgated under the name of spirituality is more nearly fantasy, and some of it has people running in circles, going nowhere. When I see people running aimlessly in circles, wrapped up in a lot of spiritual delusion, if they seem to be open to correction, I'll speak up. Otherwise, there's nothing less productive than crusading against the sincerely held, if nonsensical, views of others.

[MorningGlow]

40. Or perhaps

Spirituality (that gets labeled as fantasy or psychosis) is just science we haven't learned yet.

[get the red out]

34. delete

I just put this post in the wrong place.

Too early.

[Psychic Consortium]

37. The major question is no longer are crop circles made by man.

Scientists and experts in many fields of science, music, art, math, etc., have addressed the crop circle issue. For those of us who have followed this scientific literature (many in peer reviewed scholarly journals), it is highly unlikely that many of the crop circles were created by man.

(It is also felt by a number of experts that the US and British governments have a keen interest in the crop circles, and are responsible in part for the deliberate misleading of the public. Some of the most militant advocates for crop circles as hoaxes appear to have questionable motives and funding sources.)

It is clear that the argument whether crop circles are human in origin is no longer the major topic of discussion.

The current questions being asked by some experts:
what kind of entity is making the crop circles and why?
If the crop circles are a form of communication, what are we being told?
Why would someone communicate with us in this way?

If the crop circles are not made by man, what are the alternatives?

The experts argue over the possibilities:

ET vs. Spiritual
Humanoid vs. non physical entities

It is a question that should be answered, as we know that the crop circles produce biological and chemical changes in the plants and surrounding soil. These changes have likely entered the water supply and food chain. The crop circles clearly indicate an advanced intelligence with superior technology. We might wish to know why they communicate with us.

These PC comments have been rational and objective, based on current literature. They do have some clairvoyantly received information about crop circles, but hopes others will chime in with their opinions.
PC team members consist of individuals trained in the science and math fields who enjoy left brain discussions.

They also enjoy putting left brain material together with psychic/intuitive material.

[mother earth]

44. Is there any chance you could do a thread soon on some of PC's

latest intuitions? I know you want all of us to be doing this as well, but it is very uplifting and interesting when you share with all of us.

I remember some of the subjects that were mentioned before the election and had hoped you would share more as time went by.
TIA...(I remember something along the lines of layers of existence, angels, etc.)

If you prefer not to, it is certainly understandable.

I personally feel that perhaps crop circles are from entities that may be part of this planet, but on another level or sphere of existence.

[Psychic Consortium]

46. Yes PC was going to do a short thread soon.

But political clairvoyance may not be as much in demand
now as in the past year. Things are moving quite well into the 21st
century, all is going according to Divine Plan.

What info would you like PC to address if they can?
Some thing more esoteric....?

Yes one possible source of crop circles are non human entities
residing on this planet...or perhaps human entities who reside
hidden away from the rest of us....or humans from other planets.
Or spiritual beings of some sort....some wonder if it is Gaia herself
talking to us....

Whoever it is, they seem quite familiar with our planet and humans
on many levels. Math, science, music, animals, culture etc...
they know it all.....

[Cleita]

48. I'm happy you asked.

I'm very much into the health care debate and maybe too close to it. Although things seem bleak right now, I keep feeling that a true health care system will emerge very soon that puts us on a par with our Canadian neighbors up north and our European neighbors. I don't trust my instincts on this one because it's too close to the vest and I might be engaging in wishful thinking. Have you any better information?

[Psychic Consortium]

49. You are correct, we will have major health care reform and soon.

The time of greed and corruption is over.

[Delphinus]

53. Glad to hear it.

Cleita and I are both working too closely with this issue to trust our instincts - and, frankly, I'm pretty worn out from working so hard.

[Psychic Consortium]

55. Your hard work will pay off........ nt

[Psychic Consortium]

57. Public option feeling stronger right now than single payer.... nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

50. I'd love some words on the media in the US

and intellectual improvement, since the current state of affairs is pathetic.

I look forward to reading you, PC

[Psychic Consortium]

56. Media influence will be greatly diminshed...

Obama and other leaders will communicate more directly to the people. Like Obama did in the Mideast recently.
No need for media middlemen any more.

Education of the people will be a priority, an informed electorate is critical in a successful democracy.
Health care, education, clean air, food and water.
All makes for better citizens.

[Delphinus]

59. Amen!

Those five things: health care (not freaking health INSURANCE), education, clean air, non-GMO food, and clean water will save this world.

[Psychic Consortium]

60. These five things are seen to be in Obama's heart for us.

The ingredients that make for a wonderful people of the 21st century.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

62. Oh! Thank you PC....

I didn't realize you had replied!

Good news here.

I actually don't watch any of those hate mongers, but of course I read about them on DU, and it makes my blood boil.

OK, I admit -- what I really want is to see PoxSpews go down the tubes, taking all their minions with them.....

I've been reading "The Age of American Unreason", about anti-intellectualism in the U.S. -- Effective education is crucial.

[HOLOS]

45. December 21, 2012 Crop Circle w/ Planet Niburu changing Pluto's Orbit 30 degrees!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-LKrC66xJI

[Delphinus]

54. That was quite interesting -

I couldn't hear what he was saying very well, but the picture of the crop circle with the astrological map on it was too close to mean much of anything else.

[Cleita]

47. It seems that although we know all the methods of transferring drawings

with scales and all, from small to big or vice versa, I wonder who the Leonardo da Vinci character is who could do them in such a short time and unnoticed? Maybe they are Masons who pay the farmers off. I don't know why they want to do it though and not take credit, but they are a secretive society.

[backtoblue]

51. This is kinda interesting

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x52625

[Jeroen]

52. Physicist offers scientific proof that crop circles are formed by UFO'S

For what it's worth:

http://ufoblogger.blogspot.com/2009/04/physicist-offers-scientific-proof-that.html

SNIP:
In the down below video the producers of video documentary interviewed physicist Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff of the Netherlands. Dr. Haselhoff offers scientific proof that at least some crop circles are indeed formed by balls of light/UFO'S. His research and evidence was even accepted after peer review for the Internationally recognized scientific journal, Physiologia Plantarum.

He showed that the crop circles he examined had been made by electromagnetic point-sources. An example of an electromagnetic point-source is a light bulb. Dr. Haselhoff made his discovery by examining the anomalies he found in the nodes of the crop circle plants. When he measured the nodes of all the samples he had taken, he found that the nodes in the centre of the circles had elongated tremendously. The nodes of the plants that had grown at the perimeter of the circles, did show elongation, but not quite as much as the ones he had found in the centres. Dr Haselhoff developed a software programme to have his computer measure the nodes once more (thus excluding the possibility of human errors) and had his computer carry out many hundreds of measurements.

[northernlights]

58. the node differences were discovered long ago

The BLT researchers (all PhDs and Masters in related sciences) have studied and published peer reviewed articles on crop circles since 1990. They've discovered a number of plant and soil abnormalities.

http://www.bltresearch.com/plantab.php
http://www.bltresearch.com/magnetic.php

PLANT ABNORMALITIES

The physical changes (listed below) documented in crop circle plants by Michigan biophysicist W.C. Levengood have been determined by evaluating hundreds of sample plants -- both downed and standing -- taken from inside the overall perimeter of each formation against hundreds of control plants taken at varying distances outside each formation, in several directions. More than 250 individual crop formations from multiple countries, over a 10-year period were examined in-depth....

1.On the microscopic level, abnormal enlargement of cell wall pits in bract tissue (a thin membrane which surrounds the seed- head and through which nutrients pass to the developing seed) were found. This examination utilizes the optical microscope and is quite time-consuming and, although useful in the early, exploratory stages of the research, was replaced when equally reliable criteria were subsequently discovered.

2a. Enlarged (both laterally and longitudinally) plant stem nodes - the fibrous "knucle-like" protuberances found spaced along the plant stem beneath the seed-head, technically called "pulvini." Although these nodes are sometimes enlarged both laterally (they are "fatter") and longitudinally (they are "stretched"), extensive laboratory work has determined that it is the node elongation (the stretching) that is a permanent effect caused by the formation energies - and so this is the parameter now used.

2b.In some crop formations the energy system involved is intense enough to cause bending of this apical (top) node (although pronounced node bending is much more commonly found at the lower nodes on the plant stem). In a few cases we have found severe apical node bending in conjunction with marked stretching of the node. As the example, below, illustrates the node elongation in such cases is clearly in addition to that caused by the bending of the node tissues.

[Fire Walk With Me]

61. Antinomy.

[NuttyFluffers]

63. i believe that i want the hoaxers frequent flier miles...

because i study more than just the British Isles crop circles, i want to know what sort of fantastic international network team of artists and crack crop stomping specialists they have. or either i want their frequent flier miles, because, man, they get around and must have a huge patron to fly them out everywhere across the globe.

and then i want them to put in a Non-Profit fund to pay all the innocent farmers for using their crops as guerrilla art. i notice, for all the credit they take, they never really get back to the farmers and pay them back for their damages. i'm also surprised no farmer has been able to successfully sue them yet for damages.

these are just a few of the things i think of when i hear facile answers to more complex questions...

[Orrex]

64. Interesting

That's the first time I've ever heard it suggested that there's a coordinated international network of crop circle hoaxers, or that some small group is traveling from place to place to make the circles.

[MorningGlow]

67. I think NF is intending some sarcasm, Orrex

I may be wrong on that, but NF makes a point: there are crop circles showing up all over the world, all the time. How can two pub dwellers be doing all of them? And if it's not just them, who's coordinating the effort? In Britain alone, just this month (so far), there have been quite a few crop circles--sometimes two a day (night?)--that's gotta be exhausting for just a couple of lager-filled punters. And again, if it's many people doing these, how are they all managing to keep their mouths shut about it (and likewise not be found out?) With some of these circles (and multiple circles a night), you'd think somebody would catch a small army of "crop crunchers" trooping through the fields at least ONCE. :shrug:

[Orrex]

70. Another confession

While in college, a small group of friends and I seriously considered crafting a circle in one of the many suitable fields near Penn State. In the end we couldn't agree on a design, and we also didn't trust everyone to keep quiet about it. Therefore, it never quite materialized.

But we had (and have) no affiliation with the British hoaxers or any other circle-making group. We just happened to find the subject interesting, and we decided we might like to give it a try.

I suspect that lots of other unaffiliated groups reach a similar conclusion.


(And, on rereading NF's post, I think I agree with your subject line's assessment!)

[NuttyFluffers]

74. i welcome you here! :D we should always question for truth!

that's why i love such topics that seem so fringe. the fringe is where some of the most exciting questions are. and in fact, the best scientific method application brings up more questions than answers.

so, taking the hypothesis (not known fact) that ALL crop circles are done by these hoaxers, that would naturally lead to other scientific questions, such as :evilgrin: logistics! considering this is happening all over the world, in countries with different languages, rural communities who have more fields and sheep than televisions, and some at such poverty levels that crop losses can be disastrous to their lives, it definitely raises more questions than the simple explanation provides answers.

and this is without an in depth exploration of the actual phenomena's construction details.

so i am glad that you invite the honest discussion! we should continually question, especially when we are given simple answers. that's the hallmark of a good application of the scientific method (or journalistic integrity, either way that feels most comfortable to conceive).

:hi:

[northernlights]

75. but don't you see that you answered the big question

in your own post?

"we also didn't trust everyone to keep quiet about it"

Any time you do anything in a group, it's almost certain to get out. Sooner or later, somebody is going to brag about it to someone. *Especially* college students, lol.

[Orrex]

76. Yes and no

It was a group of about seven guys, only three of whom I trusted implicitly. I didn't know the other four well enough to be confident that they wouldn't spill the beans.

Even if I'd later gotten together with my three trusted friends and made a crop circle, the other four would still have been in a position to rat us out, since they'd been in on the early planning of it.

Mind you, if we'd actually done it (which we didn't), and if they were to squeal on us now, I'm pretty sure that the statute of limitations would have expired by now. ;)

[MorningGlow]

78. Have you factored beer into the trust equation?

I believe the effect varies depending on the volume of beer added to the calculations... ;)

[Orrex]

79. Factored? I assure you that it was instrumental!

:beer:

[omega minimo]

106. Well there's evidence right there

that humans are too drunk and disorganized to create crop circles. :wow: :evilfrown:

[Sanity Claws]

65. I now understand MG's post about being watched

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=245&topic_id=94260&mesg_id=94260

Keeping tabs on a group must be a major time suck.

[I Have A Dream]

68. I have to hand it to Orrex though. He's always been very respectful...

while visiting us. I personally welcome him here given how he approaches posting in the group.

:)

[Orrex]

72. Thank you very much!

The huge majority of posts here have been entirely welcoming, so the least I can do is to maintain a civil manner in my own postings!

[MorningGlow]

69. Actually, this thread wasn't what I was referring to

Orrex came to us with what appears to be a sincere question, seeking our thoughts, and unless he proves his intentions otherwise (using our words against us in a different forum/thread at a later date, for example), I'll take him at his word, as have the rest of the ASAH group.

The members of the ASAH group have the biggest hearts in all of DU (including you, SC! :hi:), and I'm continually impressed with how respectfully they treat others who might not be as respectful in return (not necessarily referring to Orrex here)--and yet, even though we treat people with respect, we're not stupid about human nature. I'm proud to be a member of the ASAH group--everyone does us proud. :)

[Orrex]

73. Thank you.

I've tried to be careful about accidentally repeating in a different setting something that was posted here in good faith.


Though I don't share a belief in extra-normal phenomena (see below), I find the topic greatly interesting from a dramatic and aesthetic perspective, so I like to hear more about certain particular subjects.

(I use the term "extra-normal phenomena" because it seems reasonably neutral to me. If I am incorrect in this regard, and if anyone would care to suggest a different term, I'll use it instead.)

[Orrex]

71. I understand your concern, but I've always tried to be open and up front about my presence here.

But if I'm causing a disruption, I'll be happy to exit quietly and without a fuss.

Just let me know.

[conscious evolution]

86. curiosity is always welcome

Its how people find truth.
You never know what you are going to find when you atep through the looking glass.

[MorningGlow]

66. "Crack crop stomping specialists"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Celebration]

77. if they are human

They are most likely done with some sort of "different" technology. Intricate patterns sometimes appear within an hour or two of someone viewing a normal field. None of that could be done with a board and rope. I think it takes something over 24 hours to produce an intricate crop circle that way.

But it is conceiveable that someone has figured out some way to manipulate electromagnetic energy in some unknown way that could create these patterns in a short period of time. Now, who, what, why, when, how? Answer these, and we'll know.

If we really wanted to know the answer to this, wouldn't all we have to do is train satellites on the area in the UK for a couple of weeks, at the height of crop circle time? Why don't we do that? Or, are we?

[Orrex]

80. Hey, I just thought of something

Are any crop circles visible on Google.Maps or LiveSearch? That would be pretty nifty to see.

[I Have A Dream]

85. That *would* be interesting.

Good idea!

[Orrex]

103. Here's what I found with a bit of Googling

Not quite the same thing, but at least it looks cool.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&t=k&ll=-32.319964,18.611709&z=16

[Why Syzygy]

104. Here ya go! (MUST SEE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C-_Nr4kJcg

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS332US332&q=google%20map%20crop%20circles&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

[omega minimo]

84. Nothing of any sincere concern of yours

[MorningGlow]

87. Let's let Orrex have his say, OM

His thread has been going for quite a few days now, and he's been perfectly polite. :hi:

[omega minimo]

88. Only here. Wonder why that is?

"...he's been perfectly polite"

[Orrex]

90. I'm a guest in this Group. It's that simple.

[omega minimo]

97. Then please continue to act like a "guest" of DU elsewhere on the board. Thank you.

Please do not take advantage of the goodwill of this Group.

[Sanity Claws]

89. He was snarky in response to Nutty Fluffer

That's what led to my post about being watched.
He has restrained himself but to call himself perfectly polite is a bit much.

[Orrex]

91. I didn't mean it to be snarky, and anyway I was in error because I failed to identify his sarcasm.

Also, I didn't call myself perfectly polite. That was MorningGlow's kind description. Thanks, MG! :hug:

[MorningGlow]

92. .

:pals:

[I Have A Dream]

93. I honestly didn't take it as snarky, SC.

I know Orrex when he's snarky, and that's not the way he snarks. (Is "snarks" a word? :shrug:)

:)

To me, this is an opportunity to start the process of repairing some bridges that have been badly burned. (One by one by one by one...) If Orrex is reaching out, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise. I really think that he's sincere. However, I've communicated with him via PM a couple of times, so I have a little more to go on.

I do understand why some people are skeptical; I'm sure that he does also.

I hope that we are willing to give him a chance.

By the way, he posted a very visible thread in the Skeptics group saying that he's no longer comfortable using the word "woo" to refer to people. I thank him for taking that stand, and that's one reason why I feel that we can trust his intentions.

:hug:

[omega minimo]

98. So be it.

"I'm no longer comfortable using the word "woo" to refer to people, and honestly I've grown to find it somewhat distasteful."

*****

"I don't see any real problem in using "woo" or "woo-woo thinking" to refer to uncritical belief in extra-normal or pseudoscientific phenomena, because in that case it's not being used as a direct, snarky insult against a person."


Perhaps he will extend his new attitude to realize that prejudging a person as having "uncritical belief" is an insult.

One day, instead of "extra normal" verbiage (as if there's a patent on "normal?") substituted for "supernatural," more openminded folks will realize what is natural.

[I Have A Dream]

99. At least it's a realization that calling us that name is insulting.

I'm happy when anyone tries to see things from a different point of view.

om, you and I approach things very differently. You're my Braveheart who goes into battle ready to die for the cause if required. I'm a bit more of a diplomat, happy to get even small concessions that help us all to heal in the end. No judgment -- just trying to explain why I'm really happy for Orrex's reaching out. It really is a big deal to me.

I agree with the "natural" observation, but you're preaching to the choir with me, my friend. :pals:

[omega minimo]

100. There's potential there.

"Perhaps he will extend his new attitude to realize that prejudging a person as having "uncritical belief" is an insult."


But that would be










A MIRACLE!!!!! :woohoo: :wow: :rofl:

[northernlights]

94. I agree, MG

Orrex has been quite civilized in the discussion here. I, for one, don't worry about the fights that go on elsewhere.

Maybe he is sincere in his questioning; maybe he is not. It is not my problem. I cannot control his behavior; only my own. Heck, I don't even care if Orrex goes to another forum and makes fun of what I post. It simply doesn't concern me.

Personally, I would prefer that the people who engage with Orrex and other skeptics elsewhere would check that baggage at the door here, as Orrex has done.

I must admit, though, that I am a little disappointed that Orrex hasn't responded to or acknowledged the scientific research with links that I've posted. What say you, Orrex? :evilgrin:

[Orrex]

95. Uh... I was busy washing my hair. Or something.

Sorry about that. I'll look into it.

I'd like to etch one thing in stone, though:

I don't even care if Orrex goes to another forum and makes fun of what I post. It simply doesn't concern me.

I will not do that to anyone's posts, because that would be a dishonest betrayal of the hospitality I've enjoyed here, and it would just be rude, besides!

[MorningGlow]

96. You're a good egg, dude

[omega minimo]

101. Etched in silicon, perhaps?

:hi:

[Orrex]

102. Silicon will do nicely until I get that slab of granite back from the engraver

:evilgrin: