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Ok folks is this FINALLY the turning point?

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-05 02:22 AM
Original message
Ok folks is this FINALLY the turning point?
I ask because after much raedying this is starting to feel like oh... 1936 redux, this time we will stop the packing... but I dunno
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ropi Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. i am glad you asked this..
i wonder it myself...
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. You have me lost......
What are you referring to???????

I feel like I have bee left out.....:cry:
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I wondered that too. n/t
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Conason thinks it might be
http://www.observer.com/pages/conason.asp

There is a wonderful slam of Frist in here too:

More important than the number of judges confirmed or even the survival of the filibuster rule is the Senate’s decision to reassert its constitutional independence from the White House. From the moment that Senate Republicans replaced Trent Lott of Mississippi as Majority Leader with Bill Frist of Tennessee—in a move widely attributed to Bush advisor Karl Rove—the upper chamber has been diminished in stature and importance.

The new Senate chief, whose ambitions exceeded his competence, seemed too eager to please whoever might promote him, notably Mr. Rove and Mr. Dobson. His tinny pronouncements about the Constitution and the traditions of the Senate impressed no one—and his older, wiser colleagues have now publicly humiliated him.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes the more I look at it indeed it may be
now this is from my observation of it... adn the fact that one connie has threatened a... fillibuster, over stem cell something we all desire...

but I still wonder, is this it?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm not trying to guess anymore
Every time I think I sense something that could change it doesn't happen. It'll come when nobody is looking. If it ever does. Remember Kennedy's real killers are still out there or died without ever having any justice. :mad: So why would this be any different?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Oh trust me, when it comes
it will truly not be obvous after some time (years) pass... I just hope this is the begining of the end to this damn national nightmare

(by the by Galloway will ahve a role too if this is the case)
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. popularity hitting rock bottom and they're not listening
At some point, even vote-stealing won't be able to save them.


Cher
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. I Felt It Began With Schaivo
When they overplayed their hands in a full and obvious way. Since then there have been continual cracks in the firmament. We're not There yet, but it's coming. Things are beginning to pile up and soon the weight will be so great that the entire house of cards will topple. Even the media, since the Newsweek debacle, has started to wake up. Helen Thomas' kicking of Scotty's butt was only a sign and while she has been unrelenting, this time there were follow ups by other reporters with the same tone. The WH could only get a few reporters to come to the Karzai briefing and had to fill the seats with interns. But don't mistake these people, just because it's going badly doesn't mean they're going to stop. No what will stop them, is the accumulating awareness of the people and their shock of the leadership they put in place and I don't just mean the denizens of the WH. Congress needs a good sweeping out too. My hope is this all keep building and reaches a pitch in time for the 2006 elections. It would be fantastic if the *WH had to spend its last years in office with a dem congress. As for the dems they better get their house in order too. No more quislings aiding and abetting the destruction of this country and our rights. But they too are receiving their wake-up calls, Joementum is hearing an earful from his constituents.
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Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. I hope so but we've had so many "turning points"
we've been going round in circles! I think like the Watergate scandal it will build over time.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Every Day...
Every day a drop is added and soon we will have a bucket full which we can pour over the heads of * and his evil wizard and watch them melt away just like the wicked witch did.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Same here
I think it'll just one day pop and will be various things. I sense a lot of the key players from the Nixon ordeal will be in this one. :shrug:
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. No, I'm sorry to say.
We have NOT reached the turning point. By turning point, I'm assuming here you mean the PEOPLE of the United States will be riled up to the point where they will want their country back, and they will get it.

No. I just don't see it. I see some lethargic responses at the office. My boss (He's a Repub and we've had some pretty big fights about Bush) is upset. He finally conceded that there's something seriously wrong with his beloved Rat-publican party.

He knows something's amiss, but he just can't put his finger on it (I give him hints every now and then). Another die-hard Rot-publican co-worker came to me about 1 month ago, and said to me, "we're poor. Because of this administration, we have nothing left". So she's also figured out that she voted for the wrong party, and it takes a certain level of hurt feelings to admit that to a staunch Democrat, believe me.

BUT and I do say BUT, they're not at the point of demanding some answers. My boss still feels comfortable, because his house keeps going up in value. He still has a high-paying job. He still has 4 pensions which he's counting on getting. Think of how outrageous this administration has been. They've slapped the American people on the face, kicked them in the groin, peed on them, and still: no response.

These people are still comfortable.

Think back to the VietNam war days. There was rioting in the streets. Kids were getting shot at college campuses. People were DEMANDING that we bring home our troops.

I had just arrived to this country as an immigrant, and I couldn't believe what a mess it was.

No, we're not there yet.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. What you are reporting indicates that the misery index
is higher than they will aknowledge. Some of these staunch repubs are admiting there is something wrong.

I'd say we are closer to that than we think

That said, I did not mean the people... I mean the politicos and the press... many a times a sector leads before the sheeple notice... the sheeple, like the people you describe are admiting now that something is amiss (that takes guts, and may indicate a change is in the air) but I meant if somebdoy is starting to finally lead this....

And I'll admit, major turning points, unless something like oh Pearl Harbor, usually come and go and historians write about them well after the fact.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. During VietNam, the people like your boss & co-worker still weren't
protesting & rioting in the streets, though. That came after their kids had been doing it for a good, long time. After they saw all the coffins coming home w/their kids, after they saw their kids being shot by their own countrymen on American campuses. I'm afraid to have to wait on those people waking up - been there, don't want to go there again! People like them were DEMANDING that we bring home our troops, but only after years of denial. Years of deaths. Years of kids being disowned by those same people for daring to riot in the streets. I'm afraid that the same attitudes then, the attitudes that said those kids were 'unAmerican', that they were asking for the police brutality that waited at the protests, that allowed fathers & mothers to turn away from their sons & daughters ... that same attitude is still here. It is shown by the way the public ate up the public smears against John Kerry & his war record. The purple band-aids at the GOP convention. The glee that the fundies are showing while they throw Dems out of churches. The friggin' clowns & their disdain for us & the rest of the world. Hell, even Nixon worried somewhat @ world opinion. These people don't. The sheer audacity scares the living hell out of me. This is a different time. A more dangerous time, & I was here during VietNam. This is bigger, & darker.

I don't know if people finally waking up will be enough ... nor in time. I don't know if the turning point is really a turning point. I'm starting to feel like this team of horses can't be turned, the passengers are too evil. Maybe the only chance some of it's riders have is to just bail. And let the wagon go.

I think I shouldn't be posting tonight. A real down, dank mood.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. We have all been in that mood
as a historian I can see exactly waht you are talking about but the true believers are starting to open their eyes... if they are admiting smoething amiss. Heck I heard some calls today on the shultz show taht were incredible, such as the repub turned away for ever from the GOP by Goerge, saying it was worth 600 our our boys to capture Sadamn.. so it is happening, every day... problem is, do we have time to turn it around?
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, I'll muck around in the blue mood for awhile. Get my fill & shake it
Edited on Fri May-27-05 06:59 AM by djmaddox1
off pretty quick. Some days, though ... some days! Swear to gawd, living in these times is like trying to live in a roller coaster. New bush lie, people have to wake up now _ nope, not yet! Next day, something comes out that no human could possibly ignore, this has to shake up the zombies?_nope, nada! Then there's rumblings of discontent ... will this be the time_nope, they go back to the treadmill! Some days, I can't decide whether to laugh or cry. Usually, I can can find something to laugh about ... then once in a while, I just gotta sit down & feel it to let it go. Make any sense? I never, in a million years, thought I'd look back at the days of VietNam as a simpler time. Maybe it was because I was so much younger & idealistic. Hadn't learned that the good guy doesn't always win yet. That's a hard one for most people to grasp - good doesn't always beat evil ... unless good is very, very, careful! Back then I only had me & my high falutin' ideals to worry about, now I'm the matriarch. And I'm real worried. I just can't let how much show anywhere else but here (even then, w/reservation). These kids & grandkids are still too green, they have to 'cure' a bit
before I can show them just how worried I am. Since that repub senator (Voinovich) cried on cspan & showed his fear, it's been hittin' hard. Seeing someone that I KNOW has a clue the position we are in respond w/tears for his kids - that scared me more than seeing the arrogance of those that I know are too stupid to be in charge of driving this ship.

Do we have time to turn it around? I hope so, I hope so.

But tomorrow I'll get up & jump right back in. I'm the 'Mom' & I don't give my family's future up lightly! Tonight I'm just wallowing in the dark, dank place ... loses some of it's grip that way. Again, if that makes any sense!

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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Your post made complete sense.
I keep waiting and waiting...and waiting for the truth to set us free. I constantly get my hopes up that THIS TIME, the Americans are going to tell this administration WE'VE HAD ENOUGH!! But the time doesn't come. It's never enough, it seems. How much longer till people shake themselves out of denial? Will they ever?

It's maddening. Sometimes I have to go into denial myself in order to take a break from the frustration. My conscience always forces me to tune in again, though, and do what I can.

For the rest of my life I will never forget the utter despair, disappointment, and shame I felt on November 3rd. I hope and pray that Americans will redeem themselves and help us end the destruction of our country and the world by the right-wing.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. Yes, that describes the Nov3 feeling exactly! Better today, I guess I
just needed to scream & stomp my feets for a while. Nobody else 'gets' it like the people on DU. Once in a while you just hafta scream to relieve the frustration.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. I know how you feel
It's very emotionally draining. You do want to give up but you can't. I just keep hoping and praying and doing anything I can to help.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. That's the beauty of DU - DUers 'get' it!
I honestly don't know how the people that are beginning to wake-up are going to cope w/the magnitude of just how much they've been betrayed. At least here we have the support & feedback of like-minded & aware people. This period of time will be really tough on those that don't have that support.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. it makes perfect sense
and you are The Shizzmut for keeping it all together, Mom.

:hug:
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. LOL - I gotta ask ... what's a Shizzmut ?
And TY - Mom's gotta keep it together, along w/dads!
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Nice way of saying "Shit"
As in, you are "The Shit," which is a crude way of saying: :yourock:
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Shizzmut - my new favorite word! LOL I'm going to have fun w/that one! n/t
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. You make a very good point.
It's true: we were in VietNam for 10 long years and lost over 58,000 US troops. The buildup was gradual. And even then, I'm sure it wasn't people like my "comfortable" boss and my co-worker.

But the country was in flames, literally.

And I also agree with you about, "I don't know if people finally waking up will be enough". This is my great fear, as well. The power that's working in Washington right now is so DARK, so heinous, that it's hard to imagine.

I think the biggest problem Americans have is all their stuff. We are loaded down with tons of junk, and we get sidetracked and distracted from taking care of all this crap. We have enormous debt, and that has a tendency to NOT allow us the freedom to speak up when we should be.

As the Buddha once said, "Those who have cows, have care of cows".

I think people really were freer in the VietNam era. They weren't tied down with so much stuff. They had more freedom to say what was on their minds, as opposed to today. Think of the "Flower Power" and the hippie movement.

I think at some point in the future, historians will look back and call it a "blessed" time, when people (Americans in particular) were able to tune themselves into a better spiritual awareness, that might end up averting disaster like the sinister future that lay in store for us, like the PNAC and all manner of horrors. But because of the 60's, we might have saved ourselves from it.

Just a thought.

Great thread, Nadin.


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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Yep
I think it's just the beginning. I remember earlier this year predicting that people will start to question if they voted for the right person or not. Seems like that is happening. I also sensed that sometime in the very late part of the year Arnebeck will win a really big battle. They're very good with keeping people on their toe's with various scandals so that will be harder.
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yellowdawgdem Donating Member (972 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. reason for optimism
I think we should savor the fighting spirit in the senate/house, as they are doing their best. Whether it's a turning point isn't clear, because usually the wh responds in kind. If they are able to intimidate people, they will do it. It's kind of funny that I actually feel excited that we got the 'bad' deal but saved the fillibuster. It kinda seems like this will take a certain number of repubs changing their minds, and wanting to go with a more moderate stance. And that definitely has started.
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. I feel that Roberts call for * impeachment last week was a sign of
Edited on Fri May-27-05 06:30 AM by Quakerfriend
the mods starting to turn. And, then this week we have the vote on Bolton delayed, stem cell depate bad on * etc. We may have them on the ropes a bit...but, I think the uprising is months away.

Let me share with you what's happening within my Repug family:

My sisters and I have been cleaning out my Mom's house. Mom was a staunch republican and she saved everything they ever sent her.
She had tons of contribution envelopes and etc. around the house.
My repug sister recently helped me stuff all the Repug FED EX 'donation' envelopes Mom had with trash(and, there were atleast 25!),and send them out in the mail! We even cut up all the 8x11 glossies Mom had around the house of Poppy B and shrub, and put them in the envelopes!

She is very mad at this administration!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I Am Unfamiliar With Robert's Call For Impeachment
Would you fill me in?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Member of the Reagan Admin, called for impeachment
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Amazing
& thank you. Every day now there is something which gives my heart a little blip upward. Today it was Hillary Clinton's guy being acquitted and *'s statement, (Nancy's post). As to that I am so pleased he said it for it speaks to his delusional state. Yesterday it was the hubbub in Ohio over the coins and Bolton. And what is really going on with those papers? What do the dems know and what is the admin trying to keep from them? Also today, in a cab ride home the driver had a RW shill on. God the guy was awful and spilling filth about the dems. I was about to ask for a channel change when I heard him say how disciplined the dems are and the pugs should pay attention. Whaaaa? My jaw fell open. Dems disciplined, pugs not? Well to me that is the dawn of a new day in eden. I'm not saying there won't be setbacks, because these people are like rabid dogs and won't go down without a snarling fight, however astrologer Claudia Dikinis said before the election that * would win but then, his admin would unravel like a ball of yarn and he would become the most reviled rez in history. Ever since Schaivo I've been feeling she's right.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Interesting on that woman
I predicted a Kerry win and still think he won 3-5%. Just have to prove it. I also remember about a week-three weeks away from the election I had this really BIG feeling that something HUGE will bring Bush down. So I knew either way he will be brought down. Of course at the time I never saw anything and Kerry wasn't inaugurated. At first I was really heartbroken and cried for two days. Then I thought how in a way this is a good thing because people will see Bush for who he is and we can win seats in 2006 in the Congress and Senate and can start trying to get the justice he deserves. So in a way everything is working out. Republicans are angry at Bush so hopefully in 2008 there could be no way they could, or would want, to rig the machine's. I think they're just rigging the machine's for Bush. After him I think they won't give a damn. Just my general sense. Anybody else get this? Oh and is there a link for that woman's prediction and any others she has done dealing with the Bush administration?
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #34
47. No, I never had that feeling...
that the vote-rigging was just for bush, but even if that were true, we still have to worry about the "next" bush to run for the office.

Elder Bush would like son Jeb to run for President
see: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050601/pl_nm/bush_father_dc

puke.

I really believe they used them (the machines) to win other elections too, like Saxby Chambliss.

However, I would love it if you were right!
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Oh, forgot about this possible nightmare!
Cheney for President in 2008! They would have to rig the votes for him to win! Don't you think????


Woodward Calls Cheney a 'Serious' Dark Horse for 2008 Run for White House

By E&P Staff

Published: May 15, 2005 11:50 PM ET

NEW YORK. A trial balloon for a Cheney for President run in 2008 is being launched by a surprising source, Washington Post star reporter (and White House insider) Bob Woodward.

Appearing on Chris Matthews' NBC talk show on Sunday, Woodward labeled Vice President Cheney “a serious dark horse candidate.” He said that with "a number of people" going for the GOP nomination, “a guy named George Bush might come out and say ‘What about Dick?’"

Woodward observed that "there's a serious vacuum right now," with Senators Frist, Brownback, and Allen leading the field, some say.

There may be a precedent for this. Cheney, who was put in charge of finding a suitable VP candidate in 2000, ended up getting the nod himself.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000920885
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. At least it's not in 2008
Edited on Wed Jun-01-05 12:25 PM by lancdem
Unless there's tampering, no way another Bush wins in 2008; people are growing aick of this crew. BTW, what's with Larry King? Doesn't he interview Dems anymore? First the Cheneys and now the elder Bushes. :puke:
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
38. do you mean
Do you mean you sent the cut-up pictures back to the republicans?

If that's what you meant,that's really funny. I would love to be watching when they get that envelope.


Cher
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yup. We cut up pic's of the whole clan
pickles, barbara, poppy and shrub. You wouldn't believe how many 8'x11' glossies she had of all of them! It was truly fun!
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
19. The radio station I listen to was VERY RW, or had become that way.
Although the show was not by nature about politics, the hosts would get their jabs in on an all too frequent basis. I would turn it off in disgust.
Six months or so ago, I noticed that they began to have a few guests whom entertained more liberal viewpoints.
Fast forward to NOW, when the majority of guests seem to be liberal.

It is due to the public realizing what is going on, and it is about TIME!

:applause:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. that gives me hope
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'm not sure if this will be a turning point
Edited on Fri May-27-05 04:00 PM by Nancy Waterman
but I have to say I was floored and I can't imagine this will go undiscussed on TV.

Bush said that in 20 years we will look back on the Iraq War as "America's Golden Moment." I can't fathom anyone being that out of touch with reality. Even for him this was a new record! Once again, he renders me speechless.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157853,00.html

The U.S. military is on the offensive in the War on Terror to prevent terrorists from reaching America's shores, President Bush said Friday, adding that 20 years from now, historians will look back on the Iraq war as "America's golden moment."


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Save us from the true believers!
Very nice interview with Tom Hartmann in the SUN magazine. Small magazine with no ads-if you can find it please read or buy.

He thinks the neo-cons BELIEVE they know better and can remake the world and that the little people can't be trusted with their destiny. I always thought the ideology issue was much more worrisome than just the old greed.

Jeez that quote says it all..we are doomed until we get some reality based leadership.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I thought Georgie didn't worry his little head about history....
Edited on Fri May-27-05 09:17 PM by Dover
cause we'll all be dead!

I think this moment is more accurately to be remembered as America's rush for fool's gold. But to be fair, Georgie has plenty of company on both sides of the aisle, that share in the illusion. If you've read Brzezinski's book, The Grand Chessboard, it's clear that our 'expansion' into the Balkans and the M.E. was on the drawing board for some time, though some might have had different opinions about HOW to achieve it. In fact, I'm sure there were differences and the Bush Admin. effectively fired Brzezinski's policy team at the Center for Strategic and International Studies recently. Check it out:
http://www.csis.org/




THINK TANK SUMMIT
U.S., EU, NATO DIALOGUE FOR THE 21ST CENTURY

The CSIS Zbigniew Brzezinski Chair in Global Security and Geostrategy hosted a U.S.-EU-NATO Dialogue for the 21st Century between senior representatives of leading think tanks on both sides of the Atlantic—a Think Tank Summit. The meeting, made possible by funding from the European Commission and NATO, was held in mid-April 2005 at the Wye Plantation on Maryland's Eastern Shore.
Click here for an agenda

The four years ahead—2005 to 2009—are likely to be a decisive period in trans-Atlantic and intra-European relations. How to overcome, resolve, or at least defuse, the tensions that exist between and among the states of the Atlantic Alliance, and how to envision a new or renewed Atlantic consensus, was the focus of our meeting. Occurring around one hundred days into the second term of the Bush administration, and prior to national elections in many EU and NATO countries, this meeting provided an excellent opportunity for a joint assessment of where we stand, and for the formulation of an agenda that might be issued in the name of the participants and their institutions in early summer 2005.

The discussions focused around a number of original papers prepared by senior U.S. and European experts dealing with the main dimensions of the EU-U.S.-NATO agenda—security, institutional, societal, economic and monetary, and the Middle East—for the years 2005-2009, and identifying additional issues for examination


http://www.csis.org/zbc/events.htm

BTW, if this sort of thing interests you, check out this report on the Military Industrial Complex In The Conflict for Power:

http://www.net4dem.org/mayglobal/Papers/JerryHarris_MilitaryIndustrialComplex.pdf



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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. slight correction to my post
I said it was Brzezinski's policy team that was dismissed by Buchco, but more accurately it was a group of CIA advisers, most of whom are also members of the think tank Center for Strategic and International Studies and promote policies which are at odds with many of Bushco's, at least in terms of procedural issues. This was a turning point of sorts, too...as many of these people served Dubya's father's administration as well as other presidents.

Henry Kissinger dismissed as CIA adviser

11.01.2005, 12.53

NEW YORK, January 11 (Itar-Tass) - The patriarch of the American diplomacy former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and a number of other experts have been dismissed from the posts of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) advisers.

The U.S. intelligence does not need their services any more, Kissinger and several other renowned experts who have contributed a lot to the glory of America were told, the Newsweek magazine reports in its latest issue.

The letters containing the straightforward notice were signed by the new CIA Director Porter Goss. The letters were sent to members of three advisory bodies at the CIA that have for many years been giving expert valuations and advice to the leadership of the American intelligence.

Besides Kissinger, the notifications were received by former CIA Directors William Webster and James Woolsey, former Senators Warren Rudman, Sam Nunn and Bob Kerrey....cont'd

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-17-05/discussion.cgi.16.html

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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Check this out from Chris Floyd.
http://empireburlesquenow.blogspot.com/2005/03/dubya-indemnity-bush-barons-beyond.html

In the order, Bush proclaims that any legal action taken for any reason against any American corporation dealing in "Iraqi petroleum products" at any point in the process – from well-head to gas-pump to boardroom – "constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security" of the United States. In fact, the very possibility that one of Bush's oil pets might be held accountable for its actions while gorging on Iraqi crude is so terrifying that the Looter-in-Chief has declared a "national emergency" to deal with the situation. (A "national emergency" that he forgot to mention to, er, the nation.)

The Bush edict grants a blanket immunity to all traffickers in Iraqi oil – as long as their moolah finds its way, by hook or crook, into the coffers of "United States persons or entities." Bush declares flatly that any "judicial process" launched against these protected entities "shall be deemed null and void." And how to guarantee that his partners and patrons won't be troubled by some rogue nation that still clings to the outmoded principle of law and order? Simple: one of the agencies authorized to "employ all powers" necessary "to carry out the purposes of this order" is our old friend, the Defense Department.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Wow.........hadn't seen that. But all of this makes so much more
Edited on Sat May-28-05 01:49 AM by Dover
sense, and all their actions can be placed within a broader context now that I've read that Military Industrial Complex article. They are dedicated to a unilateral power, and will not accept any "outside" interference. Here's an excerpt that spells out the two conflicting groups among elites, the Hegemonists (neocons/realists) and the Globalists (most Dems), while the military complex contains both groups and has a big internal struggle going on:

Think the globalist view has proven to be the most accurate:


This globalist approach is also evident at the Army's War College
where they defined a strategic community of “stakeholders” that not only
includes the E.U. and many third world partners but also potential rivals
such as China, Russia and India. For military globalists security goes
beyond the war machine to a broader application of power. As one paper
argues, “The political and socio-cultural elements would help create
conditions for long-term peace and stability by strengthening democratic
institutions worldwide, by advancing human rights, and by responding to
humanitarian crisis.” (Wass de Czege, 2001, 14)

Under this policy unilateralism is a dangerous self-isolating strategy.
Writing for the NDU Kugler states that “any attempt by the United States
to act unilaterally would both overstretch its resources and brand it an
unwelcome hegemonic superpower.” (Kugler, 2000a, 23) Another study at
the Army’s War College warns that “Third World perceptions that the
United States wants to retain its hegemony by enforcing the status quo at
all costs (will encourage) much cynicism about American ideals at home
and abroad.” (Crane, 2002, 24) Military strategists at both these institutes
argued the strongest guarantee for world stability is multilateral civic and
military engagement. As Kugler explains, “the best hope for the future is a
global partnership between (the E.U. and U.S.) acting as leaders of the
democratic community.” (Kugler, 2000c, 19)

This globalist strategy was strongly promoted during the Clinton
years but never fully supported within the military. Nevertheless
hegemonists lacked a strategic rival enemy to focus their thinking and
goals. While globalists put forward a dynamic and proactive engagement
policy set inside a new grand strategy for global capitalist penetration and
stability, hegemonists opposed nation building as going beyond the
traditional military role and involved with non-essential global interests. As
one military strategist argued, the “armed forces (should) focus
exclusively on indisputable military duties” and “not diffuse our energies
away from our fundamental responsibilities for war fighting.” (Dunlap,
1996, 6) In more blunt terms Samuel Huntington wrote, “A military force
is fundamentally antihumanitarian: its purpose is to kill people in the most
efficient way possible.” (Huntington, 1993a, 43)

12
Maintaining this correct use of the military was central to the
arguement put forward by geopolitical realists like Secretary of State Colin
Powell and National Security Advisor Dr. Condolezza Rice. As Rice
explained before 9-11; “The president must remember that the military is a
special instrument. It is lethal and it is meant to be.
It is not a civilian
police force. It is not a political referee. And it is most certainly not
designed to build a civilian society.” (Harding, 2003)


Well, that explains why Powell chose to position himself in Bush's corner...


This opposition to globalism backed the hegemonists into a
cautious defensive position that called for less foreign intervention limited
only to regions of vital interests. This dilemma was evident in the
presidential debates between George W. Bush and Al Gore. As Bush
stated: “I think we've got to be careful when we commit our troops. The
vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He
believes in nation building. I would be very careful about using our
troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and
win wars.” (Desch, 2001, 5)

The hegemonist aversion to nation building can still be seen in their
failure to sufficiently support the new government in Afghanistan and the
many problems of occupation in Iraq. The Bush administration was
obviously unprepared and illequiped for the post war situiations. Just how
unprepared the military was for nation building is explained by Adam
Siegel, senior analyst at Northrop Grumman, “The war fighting mission
does not require analysis of governmental corruption, police brutality,
organized crime...international development funding (and) what is
happening in the local economy.” But under globalist leadership such
questions were affecting military operations. As Siegel continues, “What
will be the population's voting patterns? Where will refugees try to rebuild
houses? Will the local schools open on time...These are real examples that
this author has seen Bridgade commanders ask their intelligence officers in
Haiti and Bosnia.” (Siegel, 2001, 8)

Avoiding such situations and limiting
armed interventions to warfare was a key principal for the hegemoinsts.
These policy positions dominated MIC debates until the terrorist
attacks on 9/11 provided a new worldwide threat that let hegemonists out
of their anti-globalist box and created the long sought post Cold War
enemy. This made hegemonist’s strategy operational, with the best13
articulated position provided by the neoconservatives and their vision of
an aggressive U.S. empire. They quickly moved to assert their leadership
and a new unilaterialist direction. Richard Perle clearly articulates their
approach, “An alliance today is really not essential…the price you end-up
paying for an alliance is collective decision making…We’re not going to
let the discussions…the manner in which we do it (and) the targets we
select to be decided by a show of hands from countries whose interests
cannot be identical to our own.” (Perle, 2001)

For hegemonists such policy is a principle of independent political
action and a foundation for nation/centric state power. Former U.N.
representative Jeanne Kirkpatrick expresses a common neoconservative
complaint that, “foreign governments and their leaders, and more than a
few activists here at home, seek to constrain and control American power
by means of elaborate multilateral processes, global arrangements and
U.N. treaties that limit both our capacity to govern ourselves and act
abroad.” (Kirkpatrick, 2000) Thus freeing the U.S. from U.N. obligations
and multilaterial agreements was the path to preeminent power.
Donald Rumsfeld extends this doctrine in Foreign Affairs. Using
terrorism as a political wedge Rumsfeld stated, “Our challenge in this century
is…to defend our nation against the unknown, the uncertain, the unseen, and
the unexpected…so we can defeat adversaries that have not yet emerged.”
(Rumsfeld, 2002, 23) This preemptive aggression for an endless war against
non-existent enemies opens the door to unending military intervention. In his
scenario the role of global allies is to serve policy determined by the U.S.



--------

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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. In 20 years, Iraq will more likely be remembered as America's Waterloo
In 20 years, Iraq will be remembered as:

-The war that demolished America's strength as a superpower.

-The war that decimated the US military.

-The war that bankrupted the US public treasury.

-The war that needlessly claimed thousands of American and Iraq lives while wounding and maiming countless more.

-The war in which the US poisoned the Earth with Depleted Uranium, the slow decaying radioactive gift that keeps on giving for oh, say about 25 billion years or so. Or in other words, pretty much eternity.

-The war that was brought about by spiritually weak, ethically bankrupt and cowardly men consumed by their insatiable lust for ever more power.

-The war that was brought about by politicians, government officials and media who knew better, but refused to intervene before the first blood was shed. That blood must be upon their hands.
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justsomegirl Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Same story...
It sounds a bit like Afghanistan and the Soviet Union, no?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
46. ok this weekend I went to a gaming convention
it was a bust from the POV of bidnezz, but I must report on a conversation in the dealer's room, as this I think is truly the turning point.

I and one of the dealers were talking... she is a military wife and has a flag on her lapel, a yellow ribbon and a red, blue and white... so we started talking about 9.11, blowback and all that and how this war has been a failure. We are talking of our experineces, both as military wives and for me my years as a medic... and bow asleep many muricans are about what is truly going on in the world.

Now think of the flag and the rest on her lappel.... kid, 22-23 comes around and tell us

"why the hell do you hate this country so much?"

We both reached for wallets and took Department of Defense IDs... and told him, ok, now that we have shown you ours, where is yours?

He stood there mouth agape....

I told him, look what branch of service? I'll go print you the forms and personally drive you to the recruiters right now (Holiday weekend they are so desperate for bodies I am sure they woudl have come)

He kind of sort of apololigezed and walked away... well another older gentleman aproached and said, look I would have pulled mine out too, but mine is a retired card not a dependent card and he might have been able to tell the difference... then he said... and ladies thank for your service, you two served as much as us in the front lines... then he said, cannot wait for the damn draft those kids need to go, so they finally wake the %^&$^($ up!
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