Astrol - Okay , so let us begin. Let';s talk about PLUTO.

[Pallas180]

Pluto takes 249 years to go around a horoscope.

Most people, I assume, living today, will never experience Pluto transiting more than a third of their horoscope.

But the United States was born July 4, 1776.

In another 20 to 25 years, taking into account retrogrades and directs, Pluto will have completely transversed the Horoscope of the United States.

That ties in with some predictions for 2020 or thereabouts.

Another distinctive quality of Pluto is that wherever it transits it brings changes. PERMANENT CHANGES.

Pluto has been transiting Sagittarius, ruler of laws and religion.

We have certainly seen changes in the laws of our country. In the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

We have seen the country change.

What am I telling you?

What would any of you like to add to this discussion of Pluto?

[Desertrose]

1. wow...a whole Pluto cycle for the US of A...time flies, doesn't it?

Will Pluto be in Cap by then?? Structures...patriarchy??? Isn't Pluto the transformer...... could be quite interesting.....

What are you seeing with Pluto??

[JPace]

2. Here are a few interesting things that Pluto rules....

and may relate to the times:

Abductions, abortions, Antichrists, assassinations, atomic energy,
betrayal, atom and hydrogen bombs, calamities, cancer, casualties,
contamination, corruption, crime, crucifixions, death, defiance,
destruction, devils, dictators, disasters, disease, earthquakes,
cosmic energy,enzymes, epidemics, espionage, executions, fanatics,
fanaticism, floods, funerals, groups, group activities, gunmen,
hell, hidden forces, holocausts, horror, petroleum, plagues, plutonium, pornography, prostitution, purification, quagmires,
radiation, rapes, regeneration, reincarnation, rejuvenation,
renewal, rotting, Satan, scientists (nuclear), sedition, sex,
sin, spiritualism, subconscious mind, suicides, tanks (military),
taxation, television, terroristic activities, toxins, tyranny, underground places, ungodliness, untruths, victims, villains, viruses, volcanoes, wars (global), wickedness, writers investigating a reform movement or mass reaction).

[Dover]

3. Hi all. That inspires a thought about previous lives......

....I wonder if souls who went through the holocaust (0r similar genocidal attempts like the early Christians and other groups) have reincarnated to experience another role (persecutor/persecuted, leader/follower, etc.) and work through stuff.

I suppose that's a simplistic understanding of how karma, reincarnation, etc. works...but still an intriguing thought. That would make a good movie subject wouldn't it?

Sometimes I think that is the case for Israel and the U.S..

We here in the States have projected our demons on the USSR and other countries, and now it is our turn to play the oppressor, the persecutor, the evil empire. Perhaps Neptune is obscuring some of what's being revealed by draping it in religious zealotry and righteousness, but we know that feeling when Pluto grabs hold....of being possessed and obsessed beyond all rationale to the contrary.


I think of Pluto as the LOTR character Gollum. The desire for Power (Pluto) corrupts absolutely and possesses the soul....forcing the possessed to exist in the darkest regions of the unconscious in order to ultimately find redemption and rebirth. Lord of the Rings is the new mythology for our age, though it borrows from older myths. It's like you have to experience this possession (the desired object/person/place/etc), and its own kind of hell, before you can fully embrace your own humanity in all its sordid truths as well as its beauty. The dark and light. If we weren't 'possessed' our conscious minds would never allow us to go along for that kind of ride and then to face a figurative death. Who willingly volunteers for that?

Will the U.S. also break up as the USSR did, under a failed system?
Would that be a good thing?
Who would benefit?
What will the death experience be like when it's gone full circle?
What will be relegated to the ashes to be reborn?

[Pallas180]

4. DR & JP - JP really sees the "bright side" of Pluto huh? LOL

Yes JP is right, it rules most of those things...but there are some
positive things too.

Pluto rules sex, and....sex and...uhmmm ok.

Pluto rules sex, death, and inheritance and the 8th house, Pluto is
the ruler of Scorpio and so Pluto also rules jealousy.

Pluto rules power and force.

Hades, Lord of the Underworld, and Persephone - kidnappings,
google Greek and Roman Mythology. Pluto rules the underworld, and the mafia, and the FBI, and secrets and investigations, and perhaps discoveries. And Pluto rules the person who is missing.

Pluto rules obsessions, and compulsions, secret things and is said to
be ruler of the "occult", a word with a negative connotation but meaning the hidden secrets of the universe, which the common man was not to know. After all, if they knew the kings ways and means, there would be nothing to fear now would there be.

Pluto rules the masses and massive things, not in the sense of grand,
but in the sense of BIG.

Pluto rules change, transformation ( a polite way of saying "it's going to be taken away".) Pluto rules losses. But Pluto, it is said, never takes away without replacing. A positive spin put to a difficult time which is the way many astrologers including myself have been taught to delineate Pluto.

Pluto rules dark places..Perhaps Pluto rules the "dark night of the soul" an experience this country is going through now.

If America was born on July 4 1776 with Sagittarius rising, then Pluto has changed the personality and the character and the laws and
religiosity of America.

What was born on July 4 1776 ? The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, the birth of a land of freedom, and freedom of religion, or perhaps freedom from religion, the latter idea which seems to be re-inforced by letters of Jefferson and Washington, who both stated that America was not a "Christian country" .

Where Pluto passes the change is permanent.

But it is said we don't realize the change until the transit of Pluto is well past the sign or house. The changes taking place to and in this country while Pluto is in Sagittarius are, as DR says, a forerunner to the further limitations and changes to the structure of the country to take place when Pluto moves into Capricorn. But let's stay with Pluto in Sagittarius, and the character/personality of this country.

My point is that the Constitution of The United States and the idealistic beliefs of the populus has been replaced.

And it has been replaced with the Patriot Act.

Many of us hang onto the hope that when this psychopath (Pluto) leaves office the Constitution will be restored to be the law of the land.

Pluto is akin to Shiva.

Where Pluto transits, the change is permanent.

"And the Raven quoth: "Never More, never more." - Edgar Allen Poe

[JPace]

5. "DR & JP - JP really sees the "bright side" of Pluto huh? LOL"

No apologies....we lost a lot on Novemberd 2nd and I for one need
to look at the here and the now (reality) before I can regroup and
look toward a possible "brighter" future. I watched political news
today and there was not a single good thing to celebrate in the
now. Possiblities are wonderful and I expect to climb back on to
the ifs and whens soon enough but for now I need to process what
is.

[Pallas180]

6. JP- if you read my "treatise" you would see there really isn't that much

bright side to Pluto for humans and other living things...it's always
difficult for most...unless you're a person prepared to let go of everything and throw a back pack over your shoulder - so no apologies asked or necessary...

Politically, I am prognosticating, that things are not going to get bette. What we have known as America is dead.

The very young and grandchildren won't miss it because they haven't lived with the freedoms that America was known for.

It is the adults, now, who are distressed, and will continue to be, until we all die out, and the younger generations who have never known anything different than the coming form of totalitarianism will
be accepting of serious limitations on their movements, thoughts and
freedoms.

Not a pretty picture for the older Americans or the world which has known us as a beacon of light

But this has been the plan, formalized since WW2 by the Trilateral
Commission - and the top bankers of the world such as the Rockefellers, the Kissingers, and the Scowcrofts and the Brzinski's.

If you've been reading DU for a while there have been many threads on
this.

They have achieved their goals.

[NEOBuckeye]

15. It would seem that they have achieved their goals. But Capricorn is next.

I think the United States as we have known it, it is actually on the verge of a massive structural collapse. With an electorate more diametrically split today than during any other time in recent modern history, record high deficits, brewing economic and energy crisises, and an ascendant, knuckle-dragging, political right-wing that would sooner consolidate its power in order to try and maintain the decaying state of the status quo, than work towards a new and better, prosperous future for all, I honestly don't see how our national government, as it stands today, is going to survive many years beyond 2008-9 when Pluto moves into Capricorn (structure), if my understanding of it is correct.

Sure, our government seems to be marching towards totalitarianism. But it is doing so based upon an infrastructure built to utilize fossil fuels, most of which are about to become increasingly scarce in the near future. And doesn't Pluto rule Petroleum? Look at the way Bush, Cheney and the Neo-Conservatives have lunged towards Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East. We know better than to believe that terrorism is the real cause for all of those shiny new military bases popping up along the proposed route to the Indian Ocean for the oil pipeline. The United States, under the Bush-Cheney regime, is behaving very much like a drug addict, desperate and willing to do whatever necessary, at the expense of everything else that was once near and dear in his or her life, to obtain yet one more fix, yet one more high. And what have we done as that addict? Shred our Constitution, sacrifice our rights, values and freedoms. In a very plutonian way, are destroying our country, and ourselves because of our obsession/addiction to oil.

So, what happens when the "drug" finally rests permanently beyond our reach? Many addicts die from withdrawal. Indeed, many among our current powers that be will probably, similarly meet their end in a most unpleasant way. Our government structure that was built to depend upon oil, without it, is destined to collapse.

Incidentally, the Association for the Study of Peak Oil & Gas is projecting that "Peak Oil" will occur in 2008 -- The same year that Pluto enters Capricorn.

Interesting, no?

[Pallas180]

17. Buckeye & Desert Rose, you got ahead of me, I didnt want to shock the

neophytes - but yes of course you are both absolutely right.

I don't call it interesting. I call it catastrophe ...but the dye has been cast, and I don;t know how we would get out of it...unless perhaps the military jumps in and decides to put a stop to the destruction of the Constitution...All of these people are sworn to uphold it, not bury it.

As you have both noticed, when Pluto goes into Capricorn, because Capricorn ruled by Saturn has ownership over Structure..all kinds of structure..rules, limitations, buildings, ...the uninitiated, and by that I mean those who are unaware of astrology, will first realize the damage Pluto has done to our laws and society.

They will realize as they see the decay of their cities and towns, roadways and buildings, the structure of American life, the lack of
security, for Saturn is also security...there will be efforts to enforce rules and limitations (Pluto - the enforcer) while at the same time Pluto has and will be destroying the rules of the past.

Will this be anarchy? without looking at a chart of the time, and I haven't drawn one up but am just speaking from the basic meanings of the transit, I would not predict this, but it does sound like it doesn't it?

[NEOBuckeye]

23. Maybe interesting isn't the best word for it. But what else can I say?

After this election, I feel, as I think many of us do here: That we're on a train (the United States) racing full speed ahead towards a bridge that's out just ahead (the future: 2005 - 2009?) and a catastrophic crash (economic, energy-related). Some passengers (the neo-cons and Bush supporters) are throwing a party, seemingly totally oblivious to this fact. The conductor (Bush) keeps shoveling coal into the furnace, the train keeps moving, and they think everything's fine, even though the ride has been particularly bumpy, even for a train (job losses, rising health care costs, etc.)

The rest of us (Dems, Greens, liberals, etc.) knew Bush was trouble when he took over the train, and have been looking out the past four years for signs that trouble lay ahead -- and to take control back from him (elections in 2002, 2004). Unfortunately, we couldn't convince a majority of the other passengers on the train to come with us to overthrow the conductor, because the train is still moving and we can't risk problems that might emerge if a new conductor takes over (the War in Iraq) in the middle of the ride. So he remains conductor, and the party continues.

Those of us who tried to get Bush/the conductor tossed are now trying to figure out how we can at least protect ourselves, survive and recover once the train crashes (preparing a new Democratic strategy?). Unfortunately for us now, even if we could remove the conductor, we probably wouldn't have enough time to stop the train from collapsing over the broken bridge.

So I call it something in the way of resignation, which from this perspective, I do find our predicament interesting, and even mildly amusing, given how silly mankind can be. Wasn't it Mark Twain who once something to the effect of "when we remember that we are all mad, suddenly the world makes perfect sense"?

For certain, the coming economic/energy crisises will bring about major upheaval unlike anything most of us living today will have previously known during our lives. I do think we can and will ultimately come out better for going through this, however.

I have read that Pluto presents a major opportunity for growth, taking away what we thought we couldn't live without and showing us that we actually can live and even thrive without it (permanent change/transformation). Capricorn/Saturn represents structure, limitations and the cutting of excesses. Look at how gluttonous our society has been, especially most recently. Look at the way we have raped and pillaged our environment. Look at the careless, mostly unplanned suburban sprawl that we have allowed to needlessly cut and stretch well into the countryside. Look at the huge half-million dollar mansions with massive mortgages that people work muliple jobs just to hold onto. Look at the huge, gas-guzzling Hummers and other SUVs that waste so much of our limited, one in a planet's lifetime fossil fuel allowance. Around the world, in the name of PNAC-sytle neo-imperialism and a grab for the remaining fossil fuel resources, the United States has stretched its armed forces and their supplies to the breaking point, just to keep all of this going.

When the planet of death and transformation meets the sign of structure and limitations, there's simply no way that this is all going to last. Pluto in Capricorn is going to be a very ugly, though desperately needed REALITY CHECK for America. But as I alluded to above, maybe learning to live with less wouldn't be so bad for people in this country? Today, we spend so much of our lives working long hours on jobs that we don't even enjoy, mostly for commercial junk and material status symbols that have little if any redeeming real spiritual value. The coming years could possibly do a lot of people some good, once they are forced to figure out what's really important in their lives.

Personally, I'm still holding onto hope for the long overdue emergence of a truly proportional, representative Parliamentary-style government, whenever this one finally collapses under the weight of all its' corruption and abuses. But perhaps, the U.S. will have to dissolve back into state or multi-state regional alliances for a time. Maybe permanently (Pluto), before we get to that point. Right now, given all of the division in this country, I don't know if that would necessarily be a bad thing for us.

[drfemoe]

37. It is not as if

I actually BELIEVE the bibble story, the so-called book of "Revelations" ...
... BUT, if it were 'true', the whore sitting on the dragon? that's US, the USofA.

The fundies put all kinds of identities on this 'whore'.
Guess what. If there is a blood drinking 'whore', it is 'us'.

Welcome to fundieville.

[Pallas180]

55. Enlightening Buckeye - the peaK oil year keeps shrinking -

2020 to 2012 to 2008? and some say 2006

I f we believed that the administration was doing the terrible things
they are doing for the country - one might be able to say, they are
very misguided patriots. But we know they are using the U.S. army
to procure oil and oil pipelines for private companies, which amounts to plain ordinary greed and quest for power.

[NEOBuckeye]

57. Yes. Which makes things even worse. Pluto in Capricorn may come early.

What makes things so bad is that Cheney, Rove and the Neo-Cons know about the Big Problem, but have opted to take the low road for their own profit, desperately working to conceal the truth from the American people, while seeking to fulfill their own unsavory desires.

How much worse for them will it be, however, when we finally reach the dead end of that road? When gas is $11.49 per gallon (an inevitable reality after the peak), the economy crashes and everything else seems to be spiralling out of control, the American people -- those in denial of reality now, at least -- will finally have no other choice but to begin demanding answers out of the Bush Cabal. Things will probably get very ugly for the Bushes, who had the chance, even amidst their initial deception back in 2000, to take the country down a better path towards conservation and alternative energy. (Yeah, I know I'm joking.)

What's the addage... something about rotten trees bearing sour fruit?

Too bad we didn't stand by President Carter, who saw the Big Problem of Peak Oil in his time during the 1970s, when we still had much more time to prepare, and sought to take the country down a better path, towards conservation and sustainable living. For whatever troubles he faced during his Presidency, he will surely be vindicated in a few short years, when we have no more time, and no other choice.

[Pallas180]

61. Carter was ahead of his time, and people distrusted nuclear anything -

about the same time there was the Chernobyl meltdown and just
before Chernobyl the moveie "Chinatown" came out I think, about
an American nuclear plant meltdown, and the people in charge covered
up and continued to lie about what was happening.

Carter was of course right, but he also said nothing about Peak Oil
nor have any of them.....similar to their denying global warming.

The Amerian people they assume, are too stupid or too fragile too
assimilate this news and prepare for it...so better just to let the
"stupids" die....goes their thinking.

Only what are they going to do about informed people like us on DU?

[cassiepriam]

25. These all describe the rupug party!

[linazelle]

43. Plutonian words that apply to BushCo:

corruption, casualties, destruction, untruths, wars, fanatics/fanaticism, petroleum, sedition, taxation, terroristic activities, villains...

"Untruths" remotely describes the propogandization and disinformation we are constantly subjected to. Truth is the biggest casualty of BushCo's war on democracy.

[LibLabUK]

7. Hmm.. Pluto, the planet that really isn't.

Facts and Figures
• Size Diameter 2300km
  
• Mass 1.27x10²²kg
  
  
• Distance from Sun 5,915 million km (39.48 AU)
  
• Distance from Earth Max 7525 million km, Min 4275 million km
  
  
• Atmosphere/weather Thin Nitrogen atmosphere with CO2 and methane
  
• Temperature -220ºC
  
  
• Length of year 90,803 Earth days (248.0 earth years)
  
  
• Moons/satellites 1 (Charon)
  
• Colour Unknown
  
• Core Unknown
  

Pluto was discovered by accident in 1930 by Clyde William Tombaugh. Astronomers had begun to search for a new planet beyond Neptune after calculations of this planet's orbit predicted the existence of a large mass beyond it.

The sums later proved to be wrong, but not before astronomers had started their search for a new planet. And before the error in the calculations had been realised, Pluto had already been discovered.

Pluto was named after the Greek god of the underworld, possibly because it is so far from the Sun. The name was suggested by an 11 year old school girl from Oxfordshire.

Planet or asteroid?
Due to its small size and distant location, some astronomers argue that Pluto isn't a planet at all. They think of it as giant asteroid.

If so, Pluto would then become the largest known member of the Kuiper belt, a disc full of icy bodies that swarm outside the planets.

More about Pluto

[Pallas180]

8. Pluto named the 9 th planet:

Pluto
Come wander with me, she said,
Into regions yet untrod;
And read what is still unread
In the manuscripts of God.
- Longfellow

-snip-

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/pluto.htm

Although Pluto was discovered in 1930, limited information on the distant planet delayed a realistic understanding of its characteristics. Today Pluto remains the only planet that has not been visited by a spacecraft,(Editor's note: a vist by NASA is planned for 2004 ) yet an increasing amount of information is unfolding about this peculiar planet. The uniqueness of Pluto's orbit, rotational relationship with its satellite, spin axis, and light variations all give the planet a certain appeal.
Pluto is usually farther from the Sun than any of the nine planets; however, due to the eccentricity of its orbit, it is closer than Neptune for 20 years out of its 249 year orbit. Pluto crossed Neptune's orbit January 21, 1979, made its closest approach September 5, 1989, and will remain within the orbit of Neptune until February 11, 1999. This will not occur again until September 2226.

As Pluto approaches perihelion it reaches its maximum distance from the ecliptic due to its 17-degree inclination. Thus, it is far above or below the plane of Neptune's orbit. Under these conditions, Pluto and Neptune will not collide and do not approach closer than 18 A.U. to one another.

Pluto's rotation period is 6.387 days, the same as its satellite Charon. Although it is common for a satellite to travel in a synchronous orbit with its planet, Pluto is the only planet to rotate synchronously with the orbit of its satellite. Thus being tidally locked, Pluto and Charon continuously face each other as they travel through space.

Unlike most planets, but similar to Uranus, Pluto rotates with its poles almost in its orbital plane. Pluto's rotational axis is tipped 122 degrees. When Pluto was first discovered, its relatively bright south polar region was the view seen from the Earth. Pluto appeared to grow dim as our viewpoint gradually shifted from nearly pole-on in 1954 to nearly equator-on in 1973. Pluto's equator is now the view seen from Earth.

During the period from 1985 through 1990, Earth was aligned with the orbit of Charon around Pluto such that an eclipse could be observed every Pluto day. This provided opportunity to collect significant data which led to albedo maps defining surface reflectivity, and to the first accurate determination of the sizes of Pluto and Charon, including all the numbers that could be calculated therefrom.

The first eclipses (mutual events) began blocking the north polar region. Later eclipses blocked the equatorial region, and final eclipses blocked Pluto's south polar region. By carefully measuring the brightness over time, it was possible to determine surface features. It was found that Pluto has a highly reflective south polar cap, a dimmer north polar cap, and both bright and dark features in the equatorial region. Pluto's geometric albedo is 0.49 to 0.66, which is much brighter than Charon. Charon's albedo ranges from 0.36 to 0.39.

The eclipses lasted as much as four hours and by carefully timing their beginning and ending, measurements for their diameters were taken. The diameters can also be measured directly to within about 1 percent by more recent images provided by the Hubble Space Telescope. These images resolve the objects to clearly show two separate disks. The improved optics allow us to measure Pluto's diameter as 2,274 kilometers (1413 miles) and Charon's diameter as 1,172 kilometers (728 miles), just over half the size of Pluto. Their average separation is 19,640 km (12,200 miles). That's roughly eight Pluto diameters.

Average separation and orbital period are used to calculate Pluto and Charon's masses. Pluto's mass is about 6.4 x 10-9 solar masses. This is close to 7 (was 12 x's) times the mass of Charon and approximately 0.0021 Earth mass, or a fifth of our moon.

Pluto's average density lies between 1.8 and 2.1 grams per cubic centimeter. It is concluded that Pluto is 50% to 75% rock mixed with ices. Charon's density is 1.2 to 1.3 g/cm3, indicating it contains little rock. The differences in density tell us that Pluto and Charon formed independently, although Charon's numbers derived from HST data are still being challenged by ground based observations. Pluto and Charon's origin remains in the realm of theory.

Pluto's icy surface is 98% nitrogen (N2). Methane (CH4) and traces of carbon monoxide (CO) are also present. The solid methane indicates that Pluto is colder than 70 Kelvin. Pluto's temperature varies widely during the course of its orbit since Pluto can be as close to the sun as 30 AU and as far away as 50 AU. There is a thin atmosphere that freezes and falls to the surface as the planet moves away from the Sun. NASA plans to launch a spacecraft, the Pluto Express, in 2001 that will allow scientists to study the planet before its atmosphere freezes. The atmospheric pressure deduced for Pluto's surface is 1/100,000 that of Earth's surface pressure.

Pluto was officially labeled the ninth planet by the International Astronomical Union in 1930 and named for the Roman god of the underworld. It was the first and only planet to be discovered by an American, Clyde W. Tombaugh.

The path toward its discovery is credited to Percival Lowell who founded the Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona and funded three separate searches for "Planet X." Lowell made numerous unsuccessful calculations to find it, believing it could be detected from the effect it would have on Neptune's orbit. Dr. Vesto Slipher, the observatory director, hired Clyde Tombaugh for the third search and Clyde took sets of photographs of the plane of the solar system (ecliptic) one to two weeks apart and looked for anything that shifted against the backdrop of stars. This systematic approach was successful and Pluto was discovered by this young (born 4 Feb 1906) 24 year old Kansas lab assistant on February 18, 1930. Pluto is actually too small to be the "Planet X" Percival Lowell had hoped to find. Pluto's was a serendipitous discovery.

1998

[Pallas180]

9. Greek Mythology of Hades - Pluto:

Hades, Greek God
of the Underworld
Hades, Ruler of the Sleeping and the Dead,
Known by Many Names,
The Invisible One or The Unseen,
Good Counselor,
And Hades, Zeus of the Underworld, the Greek god known
also as the Roman god Pluto.


http://www.men-myths-minds.com/Hades-greek-gods.html

Hades, Greek God of The Underworld
Hades, like his brothers and sisters, was swallowed at birth by his father, the Titan ruler Cronus, to prevent the fulfillment of a prophecy that one of his offspring would grow up to replace him on the throne. Years later his younger brother Zeus (who had been hidden away by their mother to prevent him from also being swallowed) made Cronus vomit up his siblings, and then led them in a battle to overthrow the Titans.

Knowing they would need armor, weapons, and troops to win the war, the three brothers, Zeus, Poseidon and Hades, traveled to the Underworld to release the Cyclopes from their captivity.



The Cyclopes were a tribe of one-eyed giants who were fine metal smiths. Cronus had imprisoned them in Tartarus, a region in the Underworld that functioned both as a prison and as a place of exile and punishment, rather like our modern vision of hell. The Cyclopes, grateful for their release, crafted gifts for the brothers - thunderbolts for Zeus, a trident (three pronged spear) for Poseidon, and a magic helmet that rendered the wearer invisible for Hades.

The war was long and bloody, and Hades fought ferociously on the battlefront and proved himself a valiant warrior. The younger generation finally won when Hades, wearing his helmet of invisibility crept up on Cronus, Poseidon pinned him down with his trident, and Zeus rendered him unconscious by striking him with a thunderbolt.



Once the battle with the Titans was over, the brothers drew lots to determine which regions each of them would rule. Poseidon won the oceans, Zeus the sky (which made him the supreme ruler over all the gods and goddesses as well), and Hades drew the Underworld.

This seemed to suit Hades just fine. The Greek god Hades, ruler of the Underworld, spent little time with his Olympian siblings, preferring instead to withdraw to his own space and to mind his own business, so to speak.

And surely his divine responsibility was large -- the management of the Underworld, an underground kingdom wherein lived the spirits of those who had died, those who slept and dreamed, and others who, for whatever reason, had been banished from the earth. With his dark, somewhat morbid nature, the Greek god Hades was undoubtedly well-suited to his career. Nonetheless, at times he was bound to be lonely.



And so he decided that he needed a wife, and the adolescent goddess Persephone unwittingly attracted his eye. One can hardly blame Hades because the Underworld probably needed some “brightening up”, and the young Persephone's radiance would certainly liven up the place.

Hades, however, did not bother to woo the young Persephone. After asking for (and receiving) the approval of her father Zeus for Persephone's hand in marriage, Hades simply abducted her one bright sunny day when she stooped to pluck a narcissus from a field of wildflowers growing near her home. The meadow was suddenly rent open, and Hades simply reached out and snatched Persephone away, taking her to his underworld kingdom and making her his Queen.



Persephone remained lonely for her mother and the life she'd known on earth. Meanwhile her mother, the goddess Demeter, began an intensive search for Persephone. After learning how Zeus had betrayed their daughter, and consumed by grief and sorrow, Demeter refused to allow the crops to grow until Persephone was returned to her. Mankind was facing a dreadful famine. Zeus finally relented and sent the god Hermes to bring Persephone back to her mother.

Part of Persephone missed her mother horribly, but another part had grown rather fond of the god Hades. And Persephone was rather enjoying her role as Queen, even if it was in the Underworld.

While preparing to return to the earth with Hermes, Persephone accepted a pomegranate offered to her by Hades. She knew full well that anyone who had eaten while in the underworld would not be allowed to return, even a goddess -- but Persephone went ahead and ate seven of the seeds. Her choice prevented her from ever being fully restored to Demeter, but did open up the possibility of a compromise.

Hermes was able to negotiate an agreement between Hades and Demeter. Persephone would be allowed to stay with Hades in the underworld for four months each year (winter) and would return to the earth and her mother the remaining months. Each year as Persephone left to join her husband in the Underworld, Greek mythology tells us that the goddess Demeter would begin to grieve, bringing on the cold, barren winters. But a few months later Persephone would return, bringing spring with her.



Like most of the other gods, Hades wasn’t especially monogamous. And like the other gods’ wives, Persephone wasn’t usually very sympathetic and tended to vent her anger on his lovers instead of her husband.

When Persephone discovered Hades’ affair with the beautiful wood nymph Mintha, she simply trod her underfoot, turning her into the plant that we now call Mint.
More than any of the Greek gods, Hades seemed to respect women and was willing to participate in a marriage of equals, sharing his decision-making powers with his wife. The two of them functioned well as a team.


Given his lengthy absences from world affairs and his famous helmet of invisibility, it is understandable that Hades was called the “Unseen One” and the “Invisible One”. Hades is often depicted wearing the helmet, holding a cornucopia (horn of plenty) full of precious metals and jewels . . . not surprising since they are to be found underground, that is, in the realm of Hades.



Before proceeding with the myths of Hades, it would be a good idea to paint a clearer picture of his kingdom . . . it wasn’t all bad! Of course there was the aforementioned Tartarus, a place of profound misery where political prisoners and the most outrageous criminals were sent to endure unending punishments.

By some accounts the Underworld also contained the Elysian Fields, where those who were notably heroic or noble would go for their reward after death. But, for the most part, the Underworld was a place where anyone’s shade, or soul, could go after death.

The price of admission was one coin (of any denomination) to pay Charon, the ferryman, to take the shade across the River Styx that separated the earth from the Underworld. This led to the practice of placing a coin under the tongue or on the eyelids of the recently deceased . . . a way to be sure that the departed could pay the ferryman. Otherwise, without the coin, the spirit would have to restlessly wander the earth for more than a hundred years. Those whose shades entered the Underworld could rest there forever, or choose to be reborn, hopefully perfecting their lives so they could qualify for admission to the Elysian Fields after their next death. Everyone got three lives.


Hades appears to have had three major responsibilities in running the day-to-day operation of the Underworld. The first was to prevent escapes, or returns to the earth, by the dead. In this he was assisted by a ferocious three-headed dog named Cerebrus, who actually belonged to the goddess-sorcerer Hecate who had her home in the Underworld.

Since the rule was that once you entered the Underworld you were not allowed to leave, very few ever visited the kingdom (or cared to). Two notable exceptions to that rule were Zeus’ messenger Hermes and the goddess Hecate, who lived in the Underworld, but often left to walk around on the earth visiting the shades who had to wander the earth, bringing them comfort. She was often accompanied by her dog Cerebrus on these visits. The other permanent guests who had responsibilities both in the Underworld and on earth, and therefore could come and go freely, were: Thanatos (Death), Hypnos( Sleep), and Morpheus (Dreams).


-more on connected gods and goddesses

[yankeeinlouisiana]

53. Fascinating!!

I always enjoy your posts!

:-)

[Pallas180]

54. Thanks Yankee. That's always nice to know.

:hi:

[LibLabUK]

10. Pluto's planet status...

"Pluto was officially labeled the ninth planet by the International Astronomical Union in 1930 and named for the Roman god of the underworld. It was the first and only planet to be discovered by an American, Clyde W. Tombaugh. "

That's the great thing about science, designations can be changed as new facts are discovered, and a lot has been since 1930.

Whilst Pluto hasn't yet been stripped of it's planet status, it really is a planet in name only. It's one of thousands of similar chunks of rock and ice that orbit the sun in the Kuiper belt.


I think it's quite nice that Pluto was named by an English schoolgirl...

[Pallas180]

12. LIBLAUK - the article I posted was written in 1998, fairly recently-

Although there has been discussion - since the 1970's of whether Pluto
is an asteroid or planet...it is accepted as a planet and for
astrologers' purposes - a major planet.

This is a column about ASTROLOGY - and I wonder if you are not mistaking it for a column about ASTRONOMY ?????

[LibLabUK]

14. Okay... let's drag it back to astrology then.

"astrologers' purposes - a major planet."

Do astrologers take the other Kuiper Belt objects into consideration?

Surely their (the objects similar in size and distance as Pluto) influence would be as significant as Pluto's.

Also, how do astrologer's deal with Pluto's recent discovery, does it invalidate predictions and charts pre-1930?

And finally, how do astrologers take into account Earth's other moons (Cruithne and J002E3 to name just two)?

[Pallas180]

18. No, it does not invalidate the meanings of Pluto in a horoscope chart -

nor of its moon Charon, although I personally think Chiron is more involved with transport over the River Styx than Charon...

Originally Chiron, an asteroid was categorized to be a "wounded healer", now it becomes more and more apparent that Chiron shows where great wounding is or has taken place. The defining delineation of Chiron is still "out" for astrologers, but that is not the case with Pluto.

There are many asteroids that astrologers use, and that is a whole separate branch and study of astrology. I, personally only use a
few of the asteroids, those who are schooled in Asteroid astrology do
entire horoscopes using the asteroids, Vesta, Admetos, Chiron, Juno,
Pallas and so on.

When you speak of the Kuiper Belt you are not speaking of recognized asteroids used in Astrology.

You are still speaking Astronomy.

And I'm sure if you got 10 people together, online interested in astronomy, you could form a new group title " Astronomy Buffs".

But this aint it sweety.

You may find this URL interesting:

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=601

And now, if you don;t mind I'm going to get back to Astrology which I have studied 35 years and is a lifetime interest (as opposed to Astronomy which is not)

:hi:

[stellanoir]

11. anyone else have a really funky morning with

the Moon conjunct Pluto (10:47 am EST). . . ?

That was a heavy one. During the snooze shows no less. Ughhhh !

[Pallas180]

13. Aha! That explains it. Thanks Stellanoir - if I wasn't in a one

story house, I would've thrown him out the window :) !

He has T Sat conjunct N Pluto inconjunct T Pluto in the third.

How would you like to wake up to that argument? !

Is somebody having CONTOL issues or what?

Oh, I forgot to mention - Pluto wants to CONTROL

[stellanoir]

16. Yeah I hear ya. . .my only lover of the past

three years has progressed Venus at 20 Sagg and he's away but he was so mad at me this morning that I was shaking and totally freaked though we haven't spoken for over a week.

I've known him for a couple decades and is not typically an angry person but has progessed Moon on his natal Mars and only lost his Mom last winter.

News flash- I didn't kill her

Yikes it was awful.

You may want to tell your SO that control is an illusion.
A good day for me is when I have a smattering of influence on any given situation.

This is an Oooops wrong planet situation for control at least, but don't tell the neocons that.

Flowers and chocolates indeed.

[Generator]

19. Well I for one, don't hate Pluto: I think a key word missing is

Transformation.

Pluto will transform. Death and destruction are, of course, one part of that..but not the only kind.

As a sagittaurus with my sun conjunct Pluto oh these many years I've seen my life transformed. I guess that's something missing from interpretation...the old me died...and new me has been born. Not completely, of course, but I went from being alone to being married with a child suddenly at age 38. For a loner-only-child and lonely being the biggest word to describe my life(moon in the 12th house) this was probably the biggest change. Now I'm never alone.

Been intrerested in astrology since I was very young, and haven't been studying it as much since I've had children.

But call me CRAZY, but I'm very much looking forward to Pluto in Capricorn and the changes it will bring. It's true, of course, the way I'm feeling these days as is most of us like minded people-it seems Democracy IS dead. I've said that to my hubsand and he says it's just ill. It needs to be re-born. It's rotten to the core. I think a cleaning out of the house of America is long overdue. Cleaning all the structures-business, banking, power that Capricorn represents could ultimately be positive. Not that it will be easy. Giving birth wasn't easy either.

I also have experienced all those Pluto things-bankruptcy, health problems involving the bowels, the place I lived in for four years was literally a basement-and it was dug up to find decay-I kid you not. It was passing through my sixth house and I also changed careers-this was actually postive-from my worst jobs to my best-to utlimately not working at all (stay at home mom as the cliche goes) and this is what has made me happiest.

I remember reading years ago circa 1995 when Sag was going into Pluto and it said-"religious fundamentalism". I was like, what is THAT? Well, we have been living it for all these years, and it's a pox on America and IN America.

I hope America can transform in the coming Pluto cycle into something better- not just death of what it was but something true to itself again.

[stellanoir]

20. I agree with you

Capricorn. . .aka government and business truly needs the wicked overhaul. But Chiron is not done with Capricorn nor is the Saturnine opposition. It'll probably be incremental until Pluto hits Capricorn.

FYI-did you know that ten years ago a CEO made what a worker made in a year in a week.

In Europe, a CEO currently makes what a worker makes in a year in a month.

In America, a worker now makes in a year what a CEO makes in half a day. Ahhhhh that would be before they go to lunch.

The heinous erosion of the middle class and the enormously ever widening divide between the have and have nots is eroding the very fabric of this country. Welcome to the United Serfs of America.

Does this relate to Pluto. . .? Well according to the Articles of Confederation Chart of America 11/15/1777 7:52 am LMT in York
Pennsylvania, Pluto natally is at 25 Capricorn. The theory behind this chart is that the chart of 7/4/76 is merely the chart of our separation from England and not the formation of anything. David Solte who researched this matter intensively. He is now deceased.

Chiron would still be transiting that Pluto. And we'll have another couple passes of the Saturn opposition.

Just because this is a Pluto thread, it behooves me to mention that the first nuclear bomb was developed around the time of Pluto's discovery as was Hitler's rise to power. I used to believe, in more optomistic times, that despite the fact that those were horrific events, they insured the peace due to the prospect of "mutually assured destruction." These days, with these idiots in charge, I'm more less sure of that than ever. How quickly we've digressed truly astonishes me.

Peace

[Pallas180]

22. Thanks Stellanoir, I had never heard of the 11/15/1777 chart before

Sound interesting and bears looking into.

Do tell more.

[Pallas180]

21. Generator mentioned something we haven't: Banking

Pluto in Capricorn - the bankers will have great power.....( Imean the
big bankers like WTO, IMF, David Rockefeller, etc...etc.. but the little banks will go down.

I think that's also what Pluto in Capricorn will bring.

And as Generator says, at the end of the mess, it is to be hoped that the whole corruption will be wiped out and we can start over again.

But it still says to me, Pluto in Sagittarius - our laws and society have been changed, forever.

And for a taste of dictatorship or totalitarianism, read this from
Newsday.com: (hmmm, PLuto in Capricorn seems to be arriving early - and we thought these things only happened in places like Russia)

Sunday, November 14, 2004

CIA plans to purge its agency
Sources say White House has ordered new chief to eliminate officers who were disloyal to Bush

Purge ordered at CIA

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uscia1114,0,707331.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

BY KNUT ROYCE
WASHINGTON BUREAU

November 14, 2004


WASHINGTON -- The White House has ordered the new CIA director, Porter Goss, to purge the agency of officers believed to have been disloyal to President George W. Bush or of leaking damaging information to the media about the conduct of the Iraq war and the hunt for Osama bin Laden, according to knowledgeable sources.

"The agency is being purged on instructions from the White House," said a former senior CIA official who maintains close ties to both the agency and to the White House. "Goss was given instructions ... to get rid of those soft leakers and liberal Democrats. The CIA is looked on by the White House as a hotbed of liberals and people who have been obstructing the president's agenda."

-more-

[stellanoir]

24. Capricorn undoubtedly rules banking as well

which undoubtedly needs a total overhaul.

I think the thing to be most mindful of is that Pluto destroys whatever to which one has an unhealthy attachment. Ponder that for a while. Having had it transit most of my planets in my lifetime (bucket chart) I can certainly attest to that.

But we have these God awful religious conflicts and the absurdist ruse of "values"(. . like who on earth is anti-family. . .?) to contend with first.

As for the 11/15/1777 chart, I just knew briefly the guy who came up with it. His theory rang true when he shared it on the San Diego shores many moons ago, when I was blessed with pigeon poop mysteriously appearing on my satin sleeve (not fun when one is travelling). It's supposed to be a good omen, according to fisherman but who knows. . .?

Just seemed to me to punctuate that we were indeed a Scorpionic nation, not a Cancerian one.

Check out the chart and see what you think. Or PM me if you want me to send it to you.

Best

[2Design]

26. OMG - boy that is really scary -

Cheney tried to get them multiple times to support their agenda and lied to the public - now they will rid all truth tellers

this is really the end - this was his fathers - and they are attacking america

[Pallas180]

27. Okay . The point of astrology is "forewarned is forearmed"-we are telling

you these things so that you can prepare yourself financially,
physically, psychologically for hard times to come.

Whatever "securing your own (and your family's safety" means to
you...start doing it. Right?

The writing is not only on the wall - it's jumping out at all of
us who are not blind.

[2Design]

28. yes the article was cleaning the CIA of liberals -

and someone else stated yesterday about a bumper sticker
"there are americans and then their are liberals"

not sure how you secure yourself without physically removing yourself from this environment

This is not good

being liberals will be the new jews - they are heating up the ovens now


then the banking thing - usa only or where else

Disolving the usa govenment like russia - I remember when russia came down - of course I don't understand the why it all of a sudden happened - but at the time Al Gore said something like well I guess that means democracy is a good way or type - don't remember the exact words -

but I though yes but our form of it is not good - it is also bad

I just never thought this is how it would all come down

and I am not sure how you secure anything when you do not know how it will manifest

so I just get more scared and anxious and becoming afraid of being afraid - and if you are at the bottom - how do you store or stock up or be safe -

[Pallas180]

29. Hey ERL - if I were with you now, I 'd prbably smack you out of the shock

go back and read this entire thread and then you will understand
exactly what we are talking about.

I don;t think we could be clearer about how it will manifest.

If you can keep your mouth shut, not appear to be against what is going on, stay, but still cash out, buy gold or silver , not stocks, the real thing, in case the dollar is worth close to nothing, get out of the banks,figure out how to stay warm in a cold climate, or move to a milder climate...try to get yourself as self sufficient as possible...

Do the best you can do, but get out of your paralysis and start thinking and acting.

[YellowDoginthehouse]

31. Couple of things about Pluto, and transits in general

Never forget this, or you will be doomed to repeat my mistakes: No transit of Pluto is minor. One could experience a minor Jupiter transit, or a minor Neptune transit by sextile or something like that, but "Pluto" and "minor" are mutually exclusive concepts.

I call Pluto "the wrecking ball" of the chart. Whatever it transits is destroyed and transformed into something better.

When you study astrology seriously, you will eventually notice something: when you begin to consciously consider an upcoming transit, there is a kind of emotional alchemy that occurs that actually changes the way that you experience the transit in the outer world. It's amazing.

[Pallas180]

39. YellowDog - true. & That's the point of being an astrologer or

studying it - being aware, preparing for the upcoming, Taking Control
of the Wheel of Life.

And yes, I like that "emotional alchemy that occurs changing the way you experience the transit inthe outer world" beautifully put.

The study of astrology and the awareness it brings is a giant step in
evolvement.. learning meditation and to calm the mind certainly helps in conjunction with the knowledge..

It's said that those who are truly evolved and risen into a higher consciousness don't have horoscopes that apply to them anymore...they have risen above it all.

BTW, Pluto the wrecking ball...I like that --- Since Pluto is also the ruler of psychotherapy - inner searching -and the occult, , it would stand to reason that many people undergoing Pluto transits come to either spiritual studies, astrology, or psychotherapy - because they don't understand why everything is falling apart - and seek answers.

[drfemoe]

38. Can we remember

that our country (ostensibly) is NOT a 'democracy', but rather a REPUBLIC?
(republicans notwithstanding) ..

re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.

1.a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
1.b. A nation that has such a political order.

2.a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
2.b. A nation that has such a political order.

3. Often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.

4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.

5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

http://www.dictionary.com

[Dover]

30. Pluto in Sag and Capricorn now and through history

http://www.guidingstar.com/PlutoInSagittarius.html

_____________________________________________________________

Also Marjorie Orr:

Political Astrology

USA - the next two decades

4 July 1776 11:00 am LMT Philadelphia, PA

WHITHER AMERICA over the next two decades:

2003 to 2005: Setbacks & High Risk.
Two major transits will be in play from now till the end of 2005. One is Saturn, harbinger of delays, setbacks, losses and separation which will produce a sober facing up to reality from mid June 2003 onwards. It progresses round a series of aspects to the US’s cardinal T square (Pluto opp. Mercury, Sun square Saturn) from June 2003 until mid 2005, which will be a discouraging time. In 2003 it was conjunct Venus (June) making the US feel unloved and unappreciated,; then conjunct Jupiter (July) which will put a damper on exuberance, pulled down over optimism and hinted at financial cutbacks. Saturn was then conjunct the US National Sun in October and November (repeating June 2004) which involved cutting away from certain aspects of past policy, of grasping nettles, facing the bottom line. In 2004, Saturn was conjunct Mercury, which was depressing. It then opposed Pluto from October 2004 to June 2005, which produces a sense of being stuck by circumstances beyond personal control. Saturn is hardly a singing and dancing transit but it will bring structure, order, trim excesses and produce a more mature outlook.

The other major transit will be Pluto opposing Mars in January/February, repeating April/June, mid November to mid December 2004, early August to late September 2005. Pluto opposing Mars brings a ruthlessness into play, usually accompanied by violence and feelings of intense frustration or impotence. There will at least be major divergences of opinion, involving extremely high feelings, intensely heated debates with no easy outcome or agreement. And it will also inevitably be a risky time. Pluto is also square Neptune from late February 2004 on and off till November 2005. Pluto square Neptune will be highly disorientating, with heightened worries, a sea fog of confusion, with old beliefs and certainties being dissolved. It can sometimes accompany major natural disasters such as earthquakes, though Pluto Neptune is also associated with nuclear or bio-chemical events and high profile scandals, sexual and financial. In 2004 and 2005 as well, Neptune will trine Saturn. This will bring a dual effect. A more humanitarian approach will emerge, seeking to ground ideals of a fairer society and world in more tangible form. But Neptune will also undermine Saturn’s rigid grasp on authority. It will be a time of worry, perhaps undermining the justice system, and many of America’s most cherished notions of rightness.

Minor Cheer
Uranus was trine Venus in 2003 resulting in moments of relief of tension; trine Jupiter in 2004 with lucky breaks; and trine the Sun in 2006 & 2007 bringing a change of heart and direction. Expansive, confident Jupiter will also counteract some of Saturn’s more depressive tendencies moving into Libra in September 2004 staying for a year and lifting the cardinal T-square.

2007 & 2008: Neptune dissolves; Uranus provokes
Neptune trines the USA’s aggressively outspoken Mars in 2007 and 08 which will induce some feelings of panic and failure. Assertive plans will not work as hoped. This is a spiritual transit, not ego boosting – a time of redefining values. In 2008 Uranus trines Mars bringing a crisis of confidence in national identity with the risk of impulsive macho gestures to boost self esteem. Uranus also opposes Neptune which will bring anxiety, irrational certainties, bad judgement calls and obstinacy. It is sometimes a signifier of earthquakes. Neptune is also conjunct the USA Moon in 2008 & 2009 which will bring emotional confusion.

The Real Test: Pluto in Capricorn: 2008 to 2024
Pluto, planet of transformation, deconstruction and reconstruction will move into Capricorn, sign of established government and money making enterprises, to stay till 2024. It will trigger the American chart’s cardinal T square from 2009 opposing Venus, Jupiter, the Sun and squaring Saturn through the following seven years. It may start with an optimistic push for success or power as the over confident Pluto Jupiter affect kicks in. But following behind will be a dismantling of old structures, a reducing to ashes to clear the ground for the phoenix to arise. Though it will not be a fast process. Pluto has not been in Capricorn since the 18th century when the American War of Independence occurred, so the USA is coming full circle, in some sense back to where it began. Sometimes these major influences bring low what rose to prominence on the previous cycle. The Ottoman Empire grew to greatness under Suleiman the Magnificent when Pluto was in Capricorn in 1515 to 1530, as he took over Arabia, captured Belgrade and attacked Vienna. Next time round for Pluto in Cap. in 1768, the Ottoman Empire lost Crimea, the effective end of the great empire which Suleiman created outside the Middle East....cont'd

http://www.star4cast.com/index2f.asp?page=political%5Fdisplay%2Easp%3Fid%3D5

__________________________________________________________________

From Curtis Manwaring:

Pluto will enter this sign again in 2009 and stay there until 2025. Because Pluto is associated with generation and corruption, it would not be surprising to see the fall of many more governments and institutions than usual during this time. Since Capricorn is related to concern over the world at large there will no doubt be cries that the world is about to end. It won't end, but it may change drastically.

There may be renewed concerns over the use of nuclear power and there may be a new nuclear threat at this time that we had not conceived of before. The outer planet transits of 2009 are strangely reminiscent of 1989 in which the early degrees of cardinal signs were active. There may be a push for a world government at this time to take over the chaos likely to be present. Those with close aspects from inner planets to Pluto in this sign will have strong leadership potential. The last time Pluto was here the USA declared independence from Britain, and Napoleon was born. Speculation upon differences based on sect is probably pointless for the same reasons as discussed before.

________________________________________________________________


And this is a site I've not yet run across. Maybe somebody here knows more about it...combines Astrology, Nostradamus and Orwell, and discusses these long cycles of the outer planets.
I'm not sure, at least on a fully conscious level, if we can wrap our minds around what's coming down the pike. And that's probably just as well. I feel some of this info presented below (the part about Islam moving up into France and southern Europe, and the part about Iceland/Greenland/Ireland) to be true...or at least it resonates with some memory deep in my bones...

Excerpt:Cracks In Time

The planetary cycles for a potential endgame scenario are mysterious and knowable only through the sixth sense, which we will discuss toward the end of this book. To understand the movements of time, we need to analyze the planetary alignments in detail. The basis of astrological alignments is rather simple to understand. Imagine a clock with ten hands that rotate at different speeds. The hands (planets) form certain aspects, or geometric angles, with each other at varying times. That is all there is to it.

Pluto is in Sagittarius until 2008. From May 2001 to March 2003, it will be opposed by the master of time, Saturn, in Gemini, sign of bipolar or twin solutions. 1931 and 1965 saw such Saturn-Pluto oppositions in recent history, albeit in different signs: the beginning of the German-Japanese axis, the theft of the spear of destiny, in 1931 and the Vietnam increments of 1965.

2002 will see a fundamental confrontation of belief systems and of system management news, leading to wars of ideas lasting well into the years 2012 and beyond. Communication and information warfare will lead the news. The news itself will be the vehicle of the war to control minds. Saturn in Gemini will insist on the substance of information rather than merely the amount, while Pluto in Sagittarius will simply discard what no longer is true. Prosperity is globally secure until 2010. The economic situation until then will improve, as growth continues naturally.

By 2010, planet Saturn - ruler of Capricorn - will be in Libra, to square and to dispose of Pluto in Capricorn, while opposing Uranus in Aries, an almost mythological and extremely volatile T-square. It can easily be concluded that alliances (Libra) will break up, while the system structure (Capricorn) is broken through. A polar shift? A similar alignment was in place in 1931, when Hitler’s black magicians took over - Uranus in Aries, Saturn in Capricorn, and Pluto in Cancer. The April-May 2011 alignments are far more brutal, as Jupiter aligns with Mars in Aries, to magnify the hotheaded temper of Uranus.

Human beings have always built walls, or comfort zones with limiting fences, only to have them torn down. Pluto in Capricorn (2009-2024) will undermine society’s system structure and thereafter its system management (Aquarius) until 2044. The lesser must go; the greater will stay; as things must transform, such is the law of Pluto, lord of nuclear power, wealth and depth psychology, master of the collective subconscious - the better to transform the world we live in...

By 2035/36, Pluto will have advanced towards the 17th-21st degrees of Aquarius, where Uranus was as the New Millennium began. It is safe to say that the World Wide Web will come down and be replaced by something of longer lasting value. At that time, Saturn will reach the 17th-21st degrees of Leo, questioning authority very severely and again opposing Pluto head on for a reality check-in time.

If Orwell’s visions and Nostradamus’ calculated predictions are correct - and I would propose that they are accurate depictions of times yet to come - then we will have three spheres of influence by then: Our Western hemisphere being ‘Oceania’, Europe and the Middle East being ‘Eurasia’, and the Oriental hemisphere made of China and India, being ‘Asia’, or the ‘yellow race’, in Nostradamus’ words. Sometimes he refers to them as the ‘shaved heads’ that will not be affected. (Quantum physics would teach us that we all affect each other, in some way.)

Nostradamus sees France defending itself against Islam and losing the contest. Islam will move into Southern Europe. Meanwhile the ‘king of the Baptists’ (Nostradamus’ name for the head of state of the Western hemisphere) appoints a new ruler for the U.K. which thus becomes some British satellite of the USA, with a prime minister as acting governor of a new state of the USA. That will leave Ireland, Iceland, and Greenland as the last bastions of Celtic Atlantis....cont'd

http://216.198.243.200/passage11/IOD/Ch11.htm

[pacifictiger]

32. the last one is

a very interesting site dover. thanks for the link.

[Dover]

33. You're welcome...I've been looking a little deeper into that site too.

Did you see the bio on St. Clair? Sure are some interesting, diverse and elite circles he purportedly socializes in...leaving me with some major question marks dancing in my head. Are his visions prophetic are based on inside knowledge gleaned from his connections? Regarding his predictions of ballot recounts during 2000, for instance, it almost sounds like he could have asked Cheney himself over lunch one day if he would commit voter fraud to guarantee the election in 2000...lol! That's how 'inside' the loop his bio makes him seem:

http://216.198.243.200/passage11/bio.htm


St.Clair’s Future Predictions:

In 2001 St.Clair predicted:


Bush 2004 re-election – later assassination or untimely replacement

Assassinations of Arafat and Sharon by 2007

The end of Royal reign in Great Britian by 2012

Transformation or end of the State of Israel in 2006/2007

World War III – to last for 22 years in many world regions



In 2002 St.Clair predicted:


Full scale Middle East War directly involving Israel Sept 2004

US to invade Iran in 2005

US to be defeated in Middle East

US casualties by 2007 higher than in the Viet Nam war

Defeat of Tony Blair as British Prime Minister

The end of the Vatican rule by 2007 – Christ never existed?

World Trade Center 9-11 disaster is an Israeli operation…

Western economic collapse and oil crisis in 2006

The demise/end of the United Kingdom by 2012/13



In 2003 St.Clair predicted:


Institution of military draft in the USA in 2005

U.S. revolution/civil war 2014/2017

Total collapse of U.S. housing market by 2005

Value of gold to double by 2007

Weather control weapons by 2009 impacting the earth

New DNA discoveries show the true extraterrestrial origins of man

Indigo Kids (born in 1959-99) to lead a new earth by 2013

[Pallas180]

40. You guys certainly find some interesting "off the beaten path " sites -

Islam moving into Southern Europe and France is very believable..

If you take a look at an atlas, you can see how the Moroccans were easily able to bomb the train in Spain...and didn't Khomeini conduct his overthrow of the Shah of Persia from France?

[LWolf]

34. I have "felt" change approaching.

Not the change we have experienced since 2000, but something bigger.

I am interested, but ignorant when it comes to astrology. This thread makes me want to find out where Pluto is in my own chart, lol.

Does the transition of Pluto automatically mean that the conditions permanently change from the original state, or that there is a big shift or change from what we are currently experiencing? Can it mean that we will see the current direction of our nation undergo a big shift/change?

[stellanoir]

35. all the outermost planets augur change

but in distinctly different ways. Uranus is sudden and surprising. It passage often inspires breakthroughs or breakdowns. Neptune is much more subtle. It's disorienting yet can inspire, but often dissolves or erodes issues slowly. Pluto is far less subtle but takes far longer. Depending on retrogradation cycles, coupled with the sensitivities of any individual, the transit can be as long 3 & 1/2 years. It strips away things to which we are overly attached, therefore causes great transformation and depending on one's resistance (or lack thereof) to the process can be really empowering.

One old adage often applied to Pluto transits is "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

If you really want to know where your Pluto is and where it might be transiting in your chart, then post your birthdata here or PM me and I'll (or someone ) will let you know.

[Love Bug]

36. Pluto and Saturn convinced me astrology is real

My interest in astrology started about 4-5 years ago. At first I thought it was just a nice diversion and didn't really think there was much to it -- it was just "fun." Well, I started digging deeper and when I got to Pluto and Saturn and found out what those planets could do in your life I started looking at some of the major difficult events I've had and when they occurred in relationship to where Pluto or Saturn was in my chart at the time --- well, here is what I found:

1. I got divorced when I was 29, during my first Saturn return.

2. In '93 my boyfriend dumped me, my teen age daughter got pregnant and my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was an extremely difficult year. My daughter had a difficult time physically and emotionally. I had no emotional tools to help me cope--I had to go on one day at at time, one hour at a time for my daughter's sake. After it was all over, I did some serious assessing of my spirituality and decided to finally abandon my fundy belief system (that had been slowly happening for years anyway, but this was the final straw). I've been on a more spiritual path ever since. Now, considering that Pluto is about breaking up what keeps you from being your authentic self, what was going on in my chart at the time? Yep-- Pluto was squaring my natal Pluto. Out with the old, in with the new.

[Pallas180]

42. If you go to astro.com you can have your chart drawn there

and probably get some explanations too.

Most of the professional astrologers sharing their wisdom on here,
do astrology for a living, so please keep that in mind when asking for
personal chart interpretations.

[LWolf]

44. I've had it done there, just didn't understand it.

I have a short copy, but don't know how to read it, or what it means.

Just something else on my list to explore; I'll get to it eventually. I usually browse through the astrology threads here, but, again, don't often understand them. I popped in here because this one "clicked."

:hi:

[Pallas180]

41. Astrologers, please tell me if I am being too circumspect in

my writing.

I thought I was being very frank - almost brutally.

Am I not being clear enough?

[Andromeda]

45. Pluto is the Phoenix that rises from the ashes....

and this is from my notebook on Pluto.

Once you have been touched by Pluto things will never be the same. Pluto is death, not necessarily physical, and rebirth, as one being reborn in the collective consciousness.

Pluto can affect an entire generation because it's influence is powerful and all-encompassing.

Pluto in Sagittarius will bring transformation in matters of religion, law, higher education and travel to distant places. One can become more religious with this transit or turn away from religion altogether.

Pluto is either/or. There is no halfway with Pluto.

People who have strong Plutonian influences in their chart will find themselves challenged in situations not of their making. They will find themselves drawn to clandestine and surreptitious events that will forever change them -- for good, or ill.

It has been my experience that Pluto gets rid of the things in your life that no longer have any use. What comes out of the purging is usually something or someone who is more beneficial to your life.

More later...:)

edited for spelling

[Pallas180]

46. Also good Andromeda .Robet Hand's " Planets In Transit"

is another excellent source of information including with a psychological bent, on the transits of all planets including Pluto

His advice: don't struggle against Pluto, the things will be ripped from you, rather than your giving them up willingly.

So release whatever it is to its highest good, metaphysically.

and say it daily.

[Pallas180]

47. Hmmm. Got me to thinking on the true nature of Pluto

the basic concept of astrology (and metaphysics is:

As Above, So Below.

Robert Hand's " Planets In Transit" advice: don't struggle against Pluto, the things will be ripped from you, rather than your giving them up willingly.
----

My thought: Release whatever it is to its highest good, metaphysically. You could say" I release myself to my highest good" and then follow your inner gut feeling on what you must do.

and say it daily.

Just my thoughts on trying to save and return an
America to what it was.

America (the govt.)has not been very nice to its first natives, the Indians, nor to black people, nor those who are poor, or less educated. As a matter of fact, internationally where America could, it has worked at keeping people that way..and certainly taking advantage wherever it could of others' resources, wealth, their very lives.

Perhaps America and the 51% who have re-affirmed that they like this sort of behavior should be left to the karma due America...while the rest who consciously reject such bad behavior can free themselves, spiritually, psychologically, materially and physcially to move on.

[YellowDoginthehouse]

48. Hey, Pallas-I don't seem to be able to start a thread.....

Just wanted to talk about the upcoming Mercury Retrograde station. I find it interesting that Mercury will slow down about November 23, then turn retrograde on December 1st-just as we begin recounts in NH and Ohio.

Anyone here do mundane astrology?

[Pallas180]

49. hee hee hee - Yellow Dog, I think we are all doing mundane astrology

why dont you just go on with your thoughts about Merc Rx station here...

[YellowDoginthehouse]

51. I just find it highly significant...

...That the Ohio vote will be certified on December 1st-which is the date of Mercury's retrograde station. I think we may see some change to the vote totals because of the retrograde situation.

As you know, some astrologers sign no contracts, accept nothing written at face value, buy no communications equipment like computers or printers during a retrograde of Mercury. I have studied astrology for 33 years, and I know better than to submit a written report of any magnitude during a retrograde of Mercury, because I know that any such document will be subject to massive revision. Add to that-this retrograde is in Sagittarius! The sign of Law and Ethics! And the full moon on the 26th is in Gemini-written communications.

Now-I am one of those astrologers who make no moves during a retrograde because I have learned this rule the hard way over many years of experience. (In my natal, Uranus is conjunct the Asc-I don't DO conventional wisdom, I do my own wisdom for better or worse!)

I don't generally do mundane astrology, but I do find this full moon and the Mercury station highly significant within the overall context of current events. I'd love to get Nancy Waterman to weigh in on this issue.

[Pallas180]

52. Yellowdog - I am curious

if you wanted to get Nancy Waterman to weigh in on the Mercury
Retro, how is it that you didn't post on the thread that Nancy has
started, so that whe would be sure to see it there?

In any case, I am also one of those people who will not do anything
of import on a Merc Rx station or full retrograde, and I do try to put anything of importance off.

As to the re-count:

The Mervcury Rx can work two ways, i.e. there are two schools of thought:

Because it is a rx, the recount can be all wrong again (which will only muddy the waters more.

OR

Because it is a recount, it is acceptable to re-do on the Mercury RX., some believe a rx is time to re-do things.

I tend to believe the former is more consistent with the energies of
all Mercury RX.

Pallas

[YellowDoginthehouse]

56. I'm clueless

If Nancy is here I have no idea what her id is...????

[Pallas180]

59. Yellowdog - you'll find Nancy at

Nancy Waterman threads or Star - something..

it's one of the other threads here...

I think her site is Starlite news...take a look around,

you'll find it.

[Andromeda]

50. Pallas, I love Hand's book and it is an

excellent source of information and what he says about Pluto is about the best explanation of Pluto that I've ever read.

He's right when he says don't struggle against Pluto. When you do you will think you have lost everything that is meaningful in your life. Some sensitive souls will turn to alcohol and drugs to cope with their losses.

What you lose under a Plutonian aspect you can recreate in your life stronger than it was before. Pluto purges everything in your life that has outlived it's usefulness but leaves something so you can build again.

Pluto in Sagittarius,(Sag = religion)is whipping up all the religious zealots into a frenzy (Pluto = obsession). They want the end to be near (the Rapture) and Pluto is the planet of death and rebirth. It is, however, not going to work out quite the way they want because their hate and fear-mongering will only turn back on them.

The outer planets never cease to amaze me because I know there is a balance in the Universe and everything moves in it's own time.

Blessings...:)

[linazelle]

63. Very fitting for me personally...

"...People who have strong Plutonian influences in their chart will find themselves challenged in situations not of their making. .."

I currently have Pluto conjunct my Sun in the first house. Knowing that I have to change under this influence I thought I'd take the bull by the horns. This past summer I moved to another state to take a promotion which for a two-year internship.

Because I have loads of experience in the area already, I attempted to ask for changes in the scheduled assignments--like adding a training class and staying longer in an area I really need to learn more about.

You would not BELIEVE the backlash I've gotten for this seemingly simple request. The first sign of a problem was the training class I asked for. In August I started the class--three days into it, a guy I've never seen before from DC comes up to me during the morning break and kicks me out of the class saying, "you can't stay in this class" (because I'm not on the track for the people in that class).

Shocked and bewildered, I couldn't figure out who would have called somebody all the way from DC to come all the way to Wisconsin to tell me I couldn't take a class. I thought I'd figured out who made that call until this week when I asked the scheduling coordinator about extending my current assignment which I feel is critical. This guy started sending nasty emails to any and everybody prefacing the request to extend the assignment with the statement that I am "displeased" with the current schedule.

It turned into a major issue with him getting taken out of the job as coordinator. It was not until this that I put two and two together and realized it had to be him, the training manager, who called the guy from DC.

This is very discouraging. In the meantime, I've been giving people who I thought made that call the stink eye--not exactly making friends.

I talked about it with my mom tonight and she said "it sounds like a power struggle." How much more Plutonian a description can you get than that? (Sag rules training and education and Pluto rules power issues.)

It's like I'm struggling to either be meek and "nice" and ignore my needs when it comes to assuring I get the training I need or to speak up and have these people who don't know me oppose me because they resent the fact that an "intern" would be saying anything at all--despite the fact that I have a load of experience. To top it off, this is so TRIVIAL in the scheme of things and seems to be getting blown out of proportion.

With Pluto still sitting directly on my Sun for some time to come, I can only brace myself for more drama (oh goodie :eyes:). I think I will have a new understanding of the plutonian theme "what doesn't kill you will make you stronger" before this is all over.

[2Design]

64. reminds me of the power struggles on the apprentice - none of them

seem to be deserving of winning this time - the women are always into cat fights - I can't believe he hasn't sent them all home - fired

watching it this time doesn't seem as fun - but it is interesting to watch the power struggles and realize the control freaks think they are not control freaks - and sometimes those who think they have a ton of experience don't seem to know how to bring the team along or up to speed

They jumped all over that stacey the first week - she never had a chance - I would not want to work with any of those women

Raj was a interesting character and seemed to have a chance but was beat out - the women have actually been the biggest ball and chain for the men who haven't figured out how to deal with b*** women who want to control -

might help to watch and see the power struggles and identify with some of them on how to not do things - haven't seen a lot of solution or team leaders who know how to handle the infighting -

as I look at who is left - I do not see a winner - there will be more fighting because ivana is extremely difficult to get along with but thinks it is everyone else and she seems to bring out the worse in everyone - although this week she actually had a good idea and had the credit stolen by Jen -

so for power stuggle and as you say pluto/sun contacts - these last weeks (thursday night) might be helpful

[Pallas180]

66. Linazelle, the motto of Pluto is not "what doesn't kill you makes you

stronger"

but it does sound like you have a good case of Pluto..and also that
your mother is a wise woman.

You have the Pluto energy, but apparently are not using it.

So you draw people who are plutonian, who want to take your power, the
power you are not using, and use it against you.

Youknow that saying, "don't give away your power?"

It's very common for people who are unaware they have this Pluto power
to be befuddled by other people's reactions to them ,- people who do
sense your Pluto power and feel threatened by it.

So now, you know you have it, at least for this transit, take a look
at the timing of the transit, and take your power, use it, and do what you have to do.

That is a motto of the energies of the planets in astrology...if you don't use your own energy, someone will come along who will pick it up and use it, most likely against you.

Quite a learning experience, eh what?

[linazelle]

69. You are exactly right Pallas . . .

I especially like what you said about giving away power. I must find a way to, as you said: "take your power, use it, and do what you have to do."

I am very aware that using Pluto's power for personal gain is a recipe for disaster. So on the one hand, I am given this power and on the other, I have to figure out how to use it for others' benefit. Your suggestion to repeat the words: "I release myself to my highest good and then follow your inner gut feeling on what you must do" is a good way to keep this in mind.

I've read Robert Hand for years. I have a torn and tattered copy of Planets in Transit which I pull out when things get especially tough. But I've found that you can read all the books and study all the ephemerides you want. Navigating the especially difficult transits is never easy.

Here's another example of Pluto's wrecking ball. My brother in law is a Pisces, Pluto is squaring his Sun. He and my sister have been married forever--they started dating when she was 14. They are getting divorced. He's extremely attached to her (unhealthily) and wants her back desperately but she's a Sag, too, and just finished a Pluto transit. She is standing up for herself for the first time in her life and won't take him back. He was fired from his job. His only sister died. He broke off a lifelong friendship with one of his few friends. He had a long and painful recovery from back surgery. And, he's become extremely religious. If that's not an example of being stronger if you aren't killed, I don't know what is.

[Pallas180]

74. Lina - Pluto Squaring his Sun. You know that the sun represents

a portion of your back also ? and he has had back surgery.

Wow. I wonder how that went. Pluto is permanence. I hope he isn't in permanent pain from that.

Perhaps you could give him some hope, some help, with your knowledge of astrology....or photocopy Robert Hand's info on Pluto...something
that might show him he is going to come out of this.

Often when Pluto transits the ascendant or the 7th people end up with a divorce.

Pluto, Saturn or Uranus on 1 or 7 ---a real barrel of laughs - NOT.

It's certainly an example of negative Pluto action.

[Andromeda]

67. Your Mom is right, you are experiencing ..

major power struggles which is common with this kind of aspect. You will run into people who will constantly test you because they see you as a threat to the status-quo.

John Kerry has also had Pluto hovering around near his Sag Sun. He earned a lot of respect from people who didn't know much about him and showed the world that he had the ability to lead by the way he handled himself in the debates.

I'm assuming that you have transiting Pluto conjunct your Sun so that will make you more intense and highly charged at this time.

[Pathwalker]

58. From: "THE POWER OF PLUTO"

by Arlene Robertson and Margeret Wilson.
This is the Introduction

THE PLUTONIAN EXPERIENCE

For each one of us, the Plutonian experience erupts from the depths of our souls. It comes upon us at different times, in the dark hours of the night, in the clear sunshine of day, in the fading twilight of the afternoon. Life batters and bruises us in many ways, and through it all, a basic pattern, a universality of experience emerges. There are just so many experiences that can happen to us in this existence. We lose a beloved through death. We are rejected and abandoned by someone we love. We stand mute and helpless while a hard-won career shatters to pieces around us. We are stricken with a dread disease which extracts its terrible toll. Through it all, we have wrestled with grief and rage, the disillusionments, the agonies, the betrayals. We have all cried in the night. We have all made the journey into the depths of our being. We have - all of us - been there.

And so it comes upon us, this Plutonian Experience. We realize the moment of decision is now. There is no one to help. There is no place to hide. The way out is to go within. Irrevocably, the starting point is up to each one of us, as we stand alone and unafraid, at the crossroads of Destiny.

We make our choice, and having made it, a feeling of peace and serenity comes upon us. The fears of the future fade; faith in ourself returns as we release the old self-defeating ways and joyfully open our hearts and minds to the new beginning.

This is rebirth. This is renewal. THIS is the Plutonian Experience, and Pluto is the gut level of the Soul.


This is a perfect description of my life when Pluto began its journey through Scorpio, my 12th House. They day Pluto first touched my 12th House, my beloved brother, without whom I would not have survived my childhood, committed suicide. (Or did he?-some members of my family refuse to believe he did).

The good news is; Once you've been to the edge of the universe and make it back alive - you get to name your soul!

[Pallas180]

60. Gee Anj,

very romantic writing, but I can't say that her description of
Pluto passing her houses is valid for anyone I know.

"And so it comes upon us, this Plutonian Experience. We realize the moment of decision is now. There is no one to help. There is no place to hide. The way out is to go within. Irrevocably, the starting point is up to each one of us, as we stand alone and unafraid, at the crossroads of Destiny.
We make our choice, and having made it, a feeling of peace and serenity comes upon us. The fears of the future fade; faith in ourself returns as we release the old self-defeating ways and joyfully open our hearts and minds to the new beginning."

That doesn't seem like Pluto... unless the writer is far more evolved than anyone I've ever met.... :)

If it were that easy and pleasant, certainly Pluto would not have the
reputation it has.

[Pathwalker]

62. Pleasant? What's she's referring to is, IMO,

the peace of dawn after the "Long Night Of The Soul". I don't know what is pleasant about the death of a loved one, being rejected and abandoned, the loss of one's career, or the diagnosis of a dread disease can be in any way pleasant. I went through EVERY one of these while Pluto was transiting my 12th House. DeathS of loved oneS. All of it. I remember that time well, and pleasant or romantic are the very last words I would use to describe the experience. So, I am certainly not in any way trying to underestimate Pluto's reputation.

Whereas Uranus has visited my life often, dancing around and turning everything topsy-turvy, turning reality surreal; it has been Pluto which annihilates it. Whatever Pluto touches in my chart - it destroys. But I have realized through time that there is a lesson in that destruction, and if one can learn what it is,and learn the lesson, then they are "re-born" and emerge from that tragedy, a different, yet stronger person.

The serenity comes after you've weathered the storm; like the day you wake up, weeks after a hurricane has blown away everything you own, but your family is alive, and you realize...there are far, far worse things that can happen than having to start all over again...from scratch.

[Desertrose]

65. after that long nite of the soul...I think of the Phoenix rising

from the ashes...

My best friend went through Pluto on her sun (6th house)and man...she ended up marrying a psychopath...left her home and moved to FL. I was really afraid she wasn't going to make it & spent many long nites on the phone pulling out all the stops ....if she hadn't had her young son,I doubt she'd have made it...but she IS the phoenix rising these days....

Bless you Anj...glad you made it tooo :hug:

[Cookie wookie]

75. Thank you for this post.

I've been through some of the same experiences, and need to be reminded that it is possible to survive catastrophes and like the Phoenix from the ashes, arise as if in a new incarnation.

I nned to be reminded because I'm facing for the next 9 years, the entrance into my life experience of an opposition of Pluto in the 6th to my stellium of Sun/Venus/Saturn/Mercury in the 12th (all square Neptune in the 3rd).

Should I bid everyone, along with a hello, I'm new can I come play?, also a fond farewell -- I'm about to be Plutoed?

I just hope I can be Plutoed with some dignity.

[Pallas180]

76. Cookie, since it's a 6th 12th house axis, you know enough about

astrology to know that you need to be taking care of all the health matters that you've been ignoring...and stay right on top of it..
it would also be helpful if you were working in any kind of institution: hospital, school, etc....

By any chance are you studying psycholodgy? or nursing? anything connected to the healing arts?

That would also be helpful.

The name of the game in astrology - use the energy yourself - don;t leave it lying around to be used other than in the way you would choose.

[Cookie wookie]

77. Thanks for the feedback

I work for an educational institution. Not studying anything at present, at least not formally.

Am looking for positive ways to use the energy of this transit, but don't know what to expect really and do have concerns. I've survived some extremely rough periods in life, but this transit scares me. But, I just had a Saturn return and actually it went well. Just had to work too hard and practice patience with everything delayed.

A couple of months ago Pluto was exactly opposite my Mercury for a while then moved off. During that time, I could feel my own anger (which was directed toward action in politics) magnetizing angry people to me. It was a taste of things to come, and realized that I must let go and surrender control and work for peace inside as well as in the world in order to handle some of the volitility and danger of the upcoming passage.

"use the energy yourself - don;t leave it lying around to be used other than in the way you would choose."

This is a fascinating suggestion. I'm not sure how to do what you suggest, but will meditate on it. If you have time to elaborate, I'd love to know more about what this means.

[Pallas180]

84. Cookie, from what you say about your Saturn return, you are

handling energies well, doing something right ---

when you have oppositions they are awareness...

therefore I would think if Pluto is going to be opposition your planets, you are going to be aware of the power and the power struggles.

Lots of times I think Pluto works on an inner level...an inner awareness - you become aware of your inner strength and power...

so use that power - and don't be afraid to - women ususally are afraid to assert themselves...maybe with Pluto around you won't have
that choice but to assert your pwer in ideas and opinions..and so on

[Andromeda]

68. That is beautiful, Anj...

Some people don't handle the Plutoian influences very well though and never learn the lessons that Pluto demands of them.

[linazelle]

70. Pluto is a tiny distant body but it is incredibly powerful--

a force for total transformation, according to StarIQ.com.

The presence of Pluto in Sagittarius may express itself through religious (Sag) extremism (Pluto).

This religious extremism seems to have manifested itself in the current fundamentalist movement, coupled with our fight against the people in the Mideast who are also fueled by religious beliefs.

Passions about absolute (Pluto) truth (Sag) can lead to destructive acts and a lack of tolerance for differences.

Invading Iraqistan certainly fits the bill--and who will ever forget the intolerance from those who supported the invasion? "If you are not with us you are against us" still rings in my ears.

Pluto forces us to strip away the superficial and come face to face with the essence of an issue. Sagittarius has a great deal to do with our hopes for the future, our expectations for tomorrow. Pluto’s role is to make sure that these are rooted in something vital, rather than pinned on the thinnest of desires. Pluto helps us become aware of the price to be paid. In this case it is the price of our beliefs. If we are going to evolve as individuals we cannot do it on automatic pilot. The old slogans ring hollow in our ears. New truths must emerge for the future.

Fascinating. I think this describes the disillusionment many of us are facing about the loss of America as we know it. We can't go forward with the knowledge that we still live in the "greatest country in the world" any longer. That slogan rings as hollow as the new ones continually being thrown out by BushCo ("moral values", "support the troops"...)

Sagittarius is the sign of the optimist. Pluto removes the tint from the rose-colored glasses. How many posts have you read on DU alone from people worried about the future? People everywhere feel this way. We are in a recession--Randi Rhodes said the other day the five-month economic downturn we are seeing would have been called a recession in the past.

War is imminent--whether it's the current battle in Iraqistan or future battles with Russia or any of our "owners" (China, Japan, the Saudis). And we have a media that is the equivalent of the band that played while the Titanic was sinking. This is what we have to reckon with as we move forward. Adjustments are in order--adjustments I never thought I'd have to make in my lifetime.

[Pallas180]

73. Linazelle, well done, excellently written! And to the point - and how.

thanks.

[linazelle]

78. Thanks Pallas...I found something else

I really enjoy comparing current events to major transits like Pluto's transit. Here's something else that I found which I think applies to the changes we are seeing in politics and our culture.

http://www.verticalpool.com/astro8.html

Pluto's X-ray through Sagittarius exposes society's outdated beliefs and assumptions ...public education systems, the mass media and the world's religious institutions—all of which require a tremendous amount of faith from the public-at-large—the collective (Pluto)—to survive.

When I look at the current control of the media by the right wing, I have to question my assumptions before now. Was the previously liberal media any fairer or was it also propogandized by the left for political ends? I tend to believe the media WAS fairer in the past and that journalism actually existed. I mourn for the loss.

Pluto in Sagittarius represents a collective (Pluto's masses) crisis in faith and a duration where people are more ready to see through what has been taken for granted as 'the truth' (Sagittarius). Brace yourselves. Pluto in Sagittarius exposes the extent society has been living a lie on the most rudimentary levels of human cultural experience.

. . . The ultimate aim of Pluto in Sagittarius is freedom from the very lies that made ignorance possible. This freedom does not come without its costs, however.

Sagittarius is ruled by Jupiter which has been called a "higher octave" of Neptune. Neptune rules things that aren't real—illusions, the ethereal. Jupiter's faith-based optimism is just as ethereal as any illusion.

The paradox seems to be that the truth, in and of itself is very real but our faith (beliefs) that truth will prevail, that truth is desirable or that truth will be told at all—-is a lie. The harsh reality is that the truth can be corraled behind barbed wire fences with illusory names like "free-speech zones." It can be ignored by the media, sealed away in historical records, rewritten and changed or snuffed out via assasinations (JFK) and "suicides."

I think the lesson of Pluto in Sagittarius is for us to find new ways to convey the truth. The internet and DU have helped to make this possible. But, having seen so many vehicles for truth go by the wayside, we should avoid making DU, AAR or even the mass media, the be-all-end-all way to handle such a precious commodity. We have to work harder than ever to establish checks and balances in our government.

I have faith that the answers for preserving the truth will be borne out of necessity as we struggle to regain our democracy.

[2Design]

79. fascinating statements about truth

<snip>
The paradox seems to be that the truth, in and of itself is very real but our faith (beliefs) that truth will prevail, that truth is desirable or that truth will be told at all—-is a lie. The harsh reality is that the truth can be corraled behind barbed wire fences with illusory names like "free-speech zones." It can be ignored by the media, sealed away in historical records, rewritten and changed or snuffed out via assasinations (JFK) and "suicides."
<snip>

I remember when I was seeing a counselor after joining the marketing division of the corporation I worked for. - I was in training and choking on the beliefs they taught to market to people. If people didn't buy - there was never a question about the product being wrong or not wanted - or bad - the question was always what was wrong with you -

You were expected to sell some junk - because that is what they made and since the corp had a great name - people sometimes blindly bought - but if someone asked you the truth - you were to not tell the truth - there had been write ups in magazines about the tactics of the corp - if they found the customer had a key player who was a stopping point of getting the sale - they did everything they could to get that person fired -

actually this sounds like the republicans - but it is consider part of doing business - this ruthlessness - lies

people who go to the doctor don't question them when they want to do surgery - but a different counselor early in my 20's pointed out - ask questions - they are not God and not to be followed blindly - now when people tell me they have to have surgery - I always ask did you get a second opinion - AND I point out that they drive rich cars and have huge homes for a reason

the counselor while I was at the corp would say - it isn't that they are lying - their definition of the truth was different - he looked at it as broader - more stretched - I had trouble wrapping my mind around that definition of the truth

but the statement I lifted - the belief that truth will prevail - it all depends on how you define truth -

for the rw it is creation
for the scientific minded - evolution

probably there is some bit of both with more rolled in - all religions have a similar story - told slightly different - so there is a measure of truth in each one - but they want to define them absolutely -

thanks for continuing to find these tidbits

[Pallas180]

83. Remember you never fully realize what Pluto has done until it is well past

this part of the site you found appears to be very true..

Pluto's X-ray through Sagittarius exposes society's outdated beliefs and assumptions ...public education systems, the mass media and the world's religious institutions—all of which require a tremendous amount of faith from the public-at-large—the collective (Pluto)—to survive.


the implosion of the church, the educational system, and the media we
can see has been happening - and they are fighting like hell to survive -

we should note that as these "institutions" are decimated by Pluto, there is no guarantee (in astrology) that what does replace them is
going to be better.

Vouchers don't seem to be better.

The church has not made a clean and honest effort to live up to its responsibilities for assaulting thousands, (who knows-millions?) of children. Instead they have once again played musical chairs - as inthe case of Boston's Cardinal Law, taking him out of Boston, enraging parishioners by giving him a higher position in the Vatican.
And in other cases where courts have determined monetary wins for plaintiff's, the church has DISHONESTLY declared bankruptcy so that they don't have to pay.

But Pluto is not through. Remember, it passes three times at least to a particular degree. Forward, Retrograde, Forward again. And usually completes its mission.

If I remember correctly it is said the second pass is usually the strongest.

[linazelle]

71. A stake in the heart of higher education for the masses

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/education/21pell.html...

Bill Clears Way for Government to Cut Back College Loans -NYT

The federal government will be able to require millions of college students to shoulder more of the cost of their education under the new spending bill approved yesterday by the House.

The government moved to change its formula for college aid last year, but was blocked by Congress. Now, however, no such language appears in the appropriations bill lawmakers are considering, clearing the way for the government to scale back college grants for hundreds of thousands of low-income students.

Nearly 100,000 more students may lose their federal grants entirely, as Congress considers legislation that could place more of the financial burden for college on students and their families.

"They are throwing students out of the opportunity to seek a college education," said Senator Jon S. Corzine, the New Jersey Democrat who wrote the amendment to stop the changes last year, and introduced a similar provision this year that did not survive the conference committee. "It is now clear to me that this was a backdoor attempt to cut funding from the Pell grant program."

[NEOBuckeye]

80. This really sounds like Pluto in SAG

Sagittarius = Education, Religion/Beliefs, Travel

And Pluto, being the wrecking ball that it is, has plowed through all of these.

Higher education is only going to become even more out of reach of the average individual. I feel the pain of this one personally, since I pinned a lot of my hopes on being able to return to school some time over the next year to finish up my teaching certification. I've got the degree, but I'm still missing a few areas that I should have picked up sooner. Silly me, thinking Bush was going to get tossed out on November 2, and that things were going to get better in only a few years.

We ain't seen nothing yet, folks. I'm starting to think that the U.S. is going to be in such bad shape both economically and socially by 2008, that the federal government is going to come tumbling down the very instant that Pluto enters Capricorn. We're in for a very rough ride.

[linazelle]

81. And the result of not providing higher education falls right in

with the theme of this thread--Sag rules foreign countries and Pluto rules power. By not educating our own, we are outsourcing jobs to foreigners thus giving the power to them, in the long run, to provide labor and cheap prices. The cheap labor will not last once we have effectively closed the doors to educating our own and then where will we be?

[Pallas180]

85. NEO - I tend to agree, however dont give up on the

education thing....there are all kinds of free government grants...

get that book "free money from the government" or start searching the
internet for "free govt educational grants" - or something like that- you get my point...

they can't have shut everything off already.

Pluto is also investigating. uncovering, digging for the truth.

[NEOBuckeye]

89. Thanks for the encouragement, Pallas

I do still want to teach, but I haven't decided which path to follow yet. I have considered relocating to another state where education is in better shape and schools are in need of more teachers. It would be tough for me to leave behind my family in Ohio, though. On the other hand, there are many older teachers here who are coming up on retirement soon. Even will all of the cutbacks and layoffs here, schools will still need to have some teachers to actually teach.

[cassiepriam]

82. of course, educated people are a threat

Must stop education for the masses.....
Smart people do not buy into propoganda..

[Pallas180]

86. Yep, I agree, that's their game - the uneducated are more easily led and

fooled and propagandized.

Rupert Murdoch has bought the great textbook publisher division of
Prentiss Hall - many years ago - did you know?

And Carlyle has also purchased a school textbook company more recently-

while Neil Bush is suddenly a great educator and has a computer company that makes/distributes tests to the nation's schools - tests which apparently are so difficult that teachers must concentrate on
teching the kids the subjects/answers to the tests, rather than normal math, history, science and so on.

Wouldn't you like to see the re-written history in Murdoch's and Carlyle's textbooks? ? ?

ha.

[autorank]

72. Excellent Thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pallas180]

87. Well thank you Autorank. Astrologers tend to be very bright people since

contrary to the propaganda, it is not a psychic and fortunetelling exercise, but mathematical, philosophical, and psychological, and actually requires years of study to be an adept.

The Mundane ( political) astrology done here is particularly interesting - and the satisfaction we derive by sharing astrological
knowledge is like "coming home".

[JPace]

88. A last personal thought on Pluto.....

This spring Transiting Pluto is going to oppose my natal Saturn,
square my Sun, square my Midheaven and square my Nadir while transiting my 6th house. All this will be within one degree and will last for a couple of years. I have dreaded the approach of this transit for a long time..... but there is nothing to do but submit to destiny. It should be "interesting" (My Sun + 5 planets ruled by Mercury) to say the least.

Any thoughts?

[Pallas180]

90. JP since I'm a very visual person, it's

difficult for me to do a chart that I dont have full info on, this way, however"

Pluto going through the 6th house involves health issues, right?
Saturn is the bones and the teeth. Why not start taking calcium now
and GO TO THE DENIST - that is unless you were already planning to have your teeth capped or something like that...then that would fit right in with the transit...if not, attend to dental and bone matters
before Pluto gets there.

Saturn in the 12th huh? This would be a good time to be doing some volunteer work in schools, institutions, as this transit occurs to take away some of the energy from a negative and use it as a positive.

It would also be a likely good time to clear out some of the "regrets" and feelings of having lost out on things that you've been carrying around with you = what we all call bagggage...cause it's going to come up for exposure whether you want it to or not, so you may as well "clean out your closet" or get some therapy about those long stufffed down feelings.

Of course I don't know what house Saturn rules in your chart, but if you look you can figure out what matters will be associated and changed with the Pluto transit of Saturn.

[JPace]

91. You have focused right in on some "tender" spots in my life,

teeth have always been problematic and now in later years I've been diagnosed with the beginnings of osteoporosis. I've been exercising for several years now to counteract it as well as taking calcium. By the way I don't like exercise....but I do it. Saturn rules my 7th and my husband is much older than I am.

"time to clear out some of the "regrets" and feelings of having lost out on things"

Having had a hard life but I have been (blessed?) with fortitude and super regrouping skills, but I'm afraid an awful lot got swept under the rug in the process. What I am feeling is the beginnings of tears that I have not experienced before....daily, and I notice now so much that I never had in my life. Its not pity I feel...its more like grief and there is almost no anger attached which is wonderful.
This started recently with something negative that is happening in my children's lives. Pluto rules my 5th house. We have generations of alcoholism in the family and I am worn out from everything (Neptune in the 4th).

"would be a good time to be doing some volunteer work"

I used to do a lot of hospital and hospice volunteer work, have not done it in years now, maybe it is time to seek serving again. Its an odd thing but I am very comfortable in such institutions and with addicted and dying people. I have healed myself as much as I can, what is left will have to come from the universe.

Thank you Pallas...you've been very helpful.


:hug:

[Pathwalker]

92. Pallas, a long time ago, an Astrologer told me that Pluto's

placement in my chart (9th House, close to the mid-heaven), along with my 8th House Sun, and Scorpio rising meant that I was sent to Earth "On Probation for pissing off God". I have felt horribly guilty ever since, because - even though I don't remember doing that, I must admit that I can see where I might be guilty of "pissing off God".

Was that person correct? The Astrologer in question was a "right-wing Christian" who would sometimes turn her interpretations into a reason to preach. Every other Astrologer has merely laughed at this idea, but sometimes my life has made me wonder...did I piss off God, and it's in my chart?

No, I'm NOT kidding.

Anj

[linazelle]

93. I have Pluto in the 9th too...I've found it to be a blessing not a curse

I have always enjoyed learning--and teaching others. My birthday's in December and so when I had to start school a year later than I might have, I cried because I couldn't start school earlier. I felt at home in school from day one and met lifelong friends throughout.

It was the same curiosity and love of learning that led me to delve into astrology. I constantly test and apply concepts to see if they make sense in my world. I think Pluto's placement makes me sort of a "life scientist."

[Pathwalker]

94. That's exactly how I feel! I have always felt -

that a Ninth house Pluto meant that this is where my deepest interests are, and I have found this to be true. I love your wors "life scientist" because I love making experiments out of things, be it gardening, cooking, etc. My kids have gotten used to my food experiments; whenever a new product comes out, I will try it from more than one company, set both before my family, and ask them to decide which is better. I can also taste a dish, and recreate it without a recipe, using my family as guinea pigs for tasting.
I think it means we like to delve into the deepest mysteries for ourselves, and not taking "Authority's" word for it.

[yellowdawgdem]

95. I've got pluto in the 9th

as well, and agree that pluto is ok in that house, although everything becomes a research project. Actually I do have problems with some of the aspects to pluto, though. I've got it squaring Mars rising in scorpio. So that is kind of an anger management situation among other things. Still, I think mars is the lion's share of the problem, with pluto intensifying the mars. I must say, I've learned a little about being patient in this life, lol!

[Pallas180]

96. ANJ, what absolute

bushit.

Hearing things like that makes me very angry.

A right wing Christian astrologer? talk about Oxymoron's.

There is absolutely no truth to the cockamamie stupid and vicious
things this charlatan said to you.

An Eighth house sun and Pluto in the 9th would probably make you a terrific researcher, a person who could be a perrenial student in
search of knowledge,and of course, with the 8th house Sun, a person interested in the mysteries of the universe - astrology, tarot, metaphysics, kaballah - all of these kinds of subjects.

AND with Scorpio rising and an 8th house sun, I would dare say that during your lifetime, you've had to swat men away from you - attracted like flies to honey.

Now I usually don't do readings on line...and when I do do readings,
they're expensive. But I want you to know the first credo of an ethical and accomplished professional astrologer is : "Cause No Harm", the same as a doctor.

The next time you run into this Charlatan, you tell her she's causing a lot of harm in the world and SHE will have to answer for it in the
hereafter.....meeting all the people she has harmed.

Chuck the guilt Anj. None of the crap she told you is true.

[Pathwalker]

97. I LOVE YOU PALLAS!

The perennial student - that is SO me! In fact, "I'm here on Earth to LEARN" is my Credo in Life. It's why I love Astrology and gardening so much - you can spend your entire life studying these subjects, and you'll still have plenty to learn in your next lives. :-)

Ah - men. Well...one man offered my husband $50.00 if he could feel my breasts. I was so proud of my husband; it was during the Rose Bowl, Michigan was getting ready to score (there so be no worse moment to get his attention), but he picked the guy up, and threw him out of the house into the snow. He told him he was going to get his gun, and if the man wasn't off our property by then, he would be dead.
Then, there's the men who I drank under the table, the men who very quickly learned to speak soprano, the men who got a quick lesson in the meaning of NO!...and the men who found out what my brothers taught me about self-defense. hehe. I never had any patience for or interest in any man who could only look me in the breasts! LOL!

Thank you for your response, Pallas. I figured the woman for a nut, but I thought you would appreciate the nuttiness. :-)

THANKS!

[Pallas180]

98. Thanks Anj, I can

use all the good thoughts and loving sent to me right now...havin
a rough week - so send those good thoughts right here. :)

:hi:

[Pathwalker]

99. I will do so, with great enthusiasm!

I am sorry to hear you're having a rough week. I have learned so much from you Pallas, and I want to make sure you know how very much I appreciate it. I consider you one of those teachers who "appears when the student is ready to learn". The knowledge you share on these threads is a wonderful gift, to me and others, and I think it's important that you know you're very much appreciated!

Hugs and Love being sent to you right now!

:hug: :loveya:

[JPace]

100. "I have learned so much from you Pallas"

I second this Pallas, you are direct, insightful, and accurate.
I have always enjoyed your posts and miss them when you take your mini vacations from DU.

[Pallas180]

102. Laughing, JP. So you've

noticed I disappear for awhile. lol.

I get busy with other things, but always miss talking astrology on DU
and Astroworld. Sometimes just keeping up with the reading on the internet can take hours - and they fly be.

Yes, I am direct, and I often wish I was more "flowery" in my writing - but I speak it as it comes to mind.

Thank you, thank you. I miss teaching astrol and metaphysics in the classroom, but certainly this is the next best thing. And you all are making me feel the time spent here is well worth it.

Thank you so much.

[Pallas180]

101. How very lovely for you to say so, Anj & JP - and

much appreciated, makes me feel good right inside the heart chakra,
truly.

Sincerely, thank you

[pacifictiger]

103. Thinking on the changes when Pluto goes into Capricorn

in a few years, I started pondering about corporations and the extraordinary global power they seem to have amassed in political, financial, and military clout. I found an interesting site about "The History of Corporations" by Bruce Brown. http://www.astonisher.com/archives/corporation/corporation_intro.html
This paragraph caught my attention:

"The main human attribute that corporations lack is a soul, as Roger Manwood, chief baron of the Exchequer, noted as early as 1592. Since the corporations themselves, and not their souls, were immortal, they were not held accountable to the moral standards that applied to individual people. "Corporations cannot commit treason, nor be outlawed," wrote the great English legalist Edward Coke, "for they have no soul." Or as English lawyer Howel Walsh put it, "a corporation cannot blush." Thus the corporations' moral inadequacy amounted to a significant legal advantage, one of many they have accrued."

If it is true the globe is entering into a new, more spiritual age, then it stands to reason that in order for this to happen corporations also will have to undergo radical transformations.

[Pallas180]

104. Pacific Tiger , the English quotes are the most interesting and apt

description of what has happened.

And it's interesting that English law recognized that corporations have no soul, but American law which is based on English law, in its wisdom, our Supreme Court ruled that corporations are a person.

That makes them sociopaths or even psychopaths - for as the English pointed out, they have no conscience, no remorse, no guilt, and true -
they have functioned here in America in just the few centuries old that we are, as ongoing and immortal. They outlive their founders and
grow like all encompassing fungus - virus -- and just go on.

Yes , under Pluto they are undergoing radical transformation, but not
in the direction we would hope.

[pacifictiger]

105. Pallas, I started reading the rest

of the chapters. I found it rather interesting that the oldest corporation still surviving today can be traced back to Benedictine and the accumulation of wealth by the catholic church - formed around 529AD. Interesting also is that Pluto was at around 22/24Sag during that year - about the same as it is now.
Marjorie Orr mentions pluto saying she thought that Pluto's cycles seemed to bring reversals, either up or down, from the previous cycle of Pluto.
If finances were the prime reason for motivating the Declaration of Independence from England (taxation without representation), it will certainly be interesting to see how these corporate financial tax angle scams (vs hardworking individuals) will fare in the coming years.
Haven't finished reading, but so far it is pretty interesting.