We need to stir up a good discussion about the misunderstood 12th House

[ricochetastroman]

I really would like to hear from other Astro-lizers here... It really seems to me that the twelfth house is misunderstood. Known as the house of "self-undoing, hardship, karma, behind-the-scenes, etc., etc." I intuitively find it hard to believe that the whole chart advances, or evolves as we near the end of the zodiac or series of houses. All at once, the junk all piles up in the twelfth? It doesn't make sense to me.

It seems that the 12th has much to do about surrendering your Will to a higher power. Perhaps it doesn't support "ego" or "self" advancement and that is why it seems to be our downfall. Maybe it's a good "downfall", i.e., it puts our lives in perspective?

Everyone's thoughts?

[stellanoir]

1. Well you've seen my 12th. . .what he heck do I know. . .??? LOL

Someone once described the 8th house as the "garage sale house of the zodiac." I think the same can be said of the 12th though it's influence is certainly predicated by the variety of karma one is sitting on, the relationship to one's spiritual source in a Neptunian sense, one's level of consciousness, whether one is creating or resolving karmic patterns, the planets involved and ruler of the house, but that's all basic stuff.

I know when certain info pours through me it feels as though I've no choice but to surrender and let it flow but that's got to do with my Moon/Neptune opp as well.

Whenever they say it's the house of institutions my mantra has always been "I am my own institution."

The 12th should be an interesting topic for sure. Thanks for bringing it out of the unconscious realm.

[BlueIris]

2. I don't think the 12th gets enough cred for being the House of Transformation.

All too often, when I see people discuss transformation in the houses, they get stuck on House 8. Which is fine when looking at transformations of a kind (sex, reproduction, taxation/wealth recycling). But for total and complete transformation--for that, you must examine the 12th.

[davsand]

3. I always kind of understood it as the "house with the shades pulled."

Not so much as a hardship or karma thing but more a matter of hidden stuff and the secrets you keep--even from yourself. I always kind of understood that it can indicate things we do to ourselves and choices we make both on a conscious and unconscious level. I do think there is an element of "soul choice" present in this but it sure isn't ALL about that.

I dunno--I'm sure not an expert with astro (as I'm sure you all realize!) so I'm interested to see what everyone else has to say on it. Shoot, I just recently realized I've got Lillith in my 12th and I'm STILL mulling THAT over... :)


Regards!


Laura

[ricochetastroman]

4. Cripes!

Now ya got me stirring, I've never looked at Lillith (Dark Moon) and I found it to be near my descendant, and square to Mars/Neptune/Saturn. What does Lillith do?

As per the 12th house: "the house with the shades pulled", hmmm

why all of a sudden does the zodiac go underground? Is the 12th the "sacrificial altar"? I wonder?

[stellanoir]

5. There are two Lilliths

One is the Dark Moon, the other is a semi minor asteroid.

Big diff from what I gather.

You want to tell us about your love life? LOL

I deleted somethin' about mine from my first response. Yikes

[ricochetastroman]

6. Love Life?

What love life? Hee hee. Seems like DARK MOON really states it! I'm awaiting more translation on it before I panic. :scared:

[stellanoir]

7. Whenever I get a client who is really AFRAID and paranoid and fearful,

I always say, "I recommend PANIC. That always works." LOL

Lillith the Dark Moon according to some, preceeded Eve as the divine feminine. She got a mythological BAD RAP IMHO.

"The Serpent in the Garden of Eden is frequently portrayed with the face of Lillith, who in Hebrew legend was Adam's first wife. She considered herself his equal and left him-and Eden-rather than submit to him. She was often depicted as winged, with the body of a snake, and was said to be the temptress of Eve. She acquired the reputation of a wicked demon who killed new-born babies and was the enemy of men."

More bad press for the divine feminine, the unconscious, and the unknown.

She ended up semi redeeming herself by protecting unprotected children from the sins of their fathers by smiling at them. That's the only cool part I can find at short notice.

Her name means "Storm Goddess, or "She of the Night."

There are parellels to the myth of Zeus & Hera for sure addressing inequality and subsequent banishment to the desert.

Lillith has Sumerian and Babylonian roots as well.

More later.

[davsand]

20. Here's a little bit of info bout Lillith the Asteroid for you:

Here is Mountain Astrologer's take on Lillith (including Dark Moon Lillith and Asteroid Lillith)

http://www.mountainastrologer.com/hunter.html

Here is a bit from the MSN Horoscopes Chat on Lillith:

http://groups.msn.com/HOROSCOPESCHAT/lilithchiron.msnw

(If you are on dialup and if you go to the welcome page it is full of little fairy and mermaid pics that take a LONG time loading. That thing is graphics intensive! The link above isn't bad but be aware that poking around on that site can take some time.

Here is that article at Llewellyn about it:

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/814


I'm still sorting it all out as to how it impacts in my own chart. Lillith is solo in my 12th (Gemini) and thus far I'm starting to look at it as maybe some kind of significator for my appreciation of the Goddess (read as nature based) religions. (I dunno, as I said earlier, I'm still sorting it all out so if anybody else has a strong opinion I'd like to hear it.


Laura

[wickfordbard]

8. Do we all realize that the 12th house is the house of Sunrise?

Yes, when planets are in the 12th, they are just rising over the horizon. Now I have my Sun in the 12th, as well as Venus and Mercury (and Mars if you use Placidus, which I did for years.) So how can the 12th be only "serve or suffer", "the house of self-undoing" etc. etc.? when it's one of the most beautiful times of day.

What I've discovered (since over 90% of my therapy/astrology clients are 12th house) is that it is the house of Resurrection. It's our chance to redeem old habits and patterns that have kept us stuck in certain areas of our lives. Dane Rudhyar says that once we've worked through our 12th house issues, we are free of them and can have a different life. Resurrection if you will.

I also call the 12th the Harry Potter house - it's where we are told "You are not a wizard" when most definitely we are. Usually these are the family/genetic issues that are dumped on us because no one else in the family has the balls to deal with them.

But most of all, I call the 12th house, the 100 monkey house. I believe that when we choose to incarnate with lots of 12th house energy, we have volunteered to come in and redeem some aspect of collective life that needs to be regenerated. We are acting on behalf of the whole. (Maybe the 8th is where we redeem ourselves?) Anyway, 12th house people work hard at some inner/collective problem that's been banished into the collective unconscious, and when all the monkeys have learned something new about the problem, critical mass is reached and everyone gets to use the new knowledge that was so painstakenly worked out by us 12th house monkeys. { I can't be sure, since I don't know his time of birth, but I believe my dad was also a 12th houser. He never lived out his wild, Aquarian side (Sun Conj Mars/Uranus) and now that he's dead, it feels like he can't move on until he forgives himself for it. I just this morning had a talk with him and it feels like maybe he had to feel the repression this lifetime - had to feel how awful it is to not live out your potentials. Because that's also a 12th house issue. Then again, W is a 12th houser, so is he living out spirit's needs. I certainly wouldn't want to be cast as the idiot president who brings the world to the brink of destruction .}

Anyway. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

As for Lilith, she is a Sumerian Goddess/servant of the great goddess Innanna, who was a sex goddess if there ever was one. Lilith was Adam's first wife, but she left him when he refused to let her be on top during sex. Of course the Jews turned her into a demoness who ate unprotected children. But if we search back far enough, she probably was a goddess who wanted to enjoy sex more than she wanted to procreate children - hence she eats the kids - maybe when they're just sperm and eggs????
George MacDonald, the fantasy writer, wrote a novel called Lilith about Adam's first wife and Eve and Adam and redemption. It's Christian but it's good.

Gotta fly. Hope this adds to the conversation.

[stellanoir]

9. Are you sure that it's not the house of a "brazillion monkeys. . .?"

Thanks for your wise imput as ever luv.

[Angel Wings]

10. That's a fascinating interpretation!!

I have 12 house Saturn in aries and I've felt very stuck or blocked all my life. I feel like a slacker even though I've never slacked. I feel I haven't accomplished anything that I should have by now (over 30). Sometimes I'm embarrassed. But, I think I'm lucky because I look a lot younger. I can still pass for someone just starting out and dammit, ironically, still am. :-)


Any helpful thoughts for a wayward Saturn 12th houser?

[ricochetastroman]

12. Saturn stuck in your 12th

Did you try WD-40?

Just kidding. I hesitate to put too much weight on the 12th Saturn unless I see the whole chart. There can be many other reasons that make you feel "very stuck or blockes all my life". Can you give chart details?

[Angel Wings]

21. hmmm...WD-40....I'lLL TRY IT!!! ;- )

Maybe not all of my life but surely a lot of it.

I'm not really sure of what details to give 'cause I'm not that versed on astrology charting. I had one done a few years ago, though. I remember having a 12th house saturn and when I read a couple of books about 12th house interpretations at the end they said- a past life regression is strongly encouraged- or something like that. It always reminded me of reading a medication label when it says-if a rash occurs see a doctor immediately. hehe

[I Have A Dream]

23. Dreamy, you can create a chart on-line and post it here. I'd be happy...

to create it for you if you don't feel comfortable doing it. I'd just need for you to PM me your date, time and place of birth. (The chart will show this information if you post it here, so please take that into account when deciding whether you want to post it here.)

[Angel Wings]

35. Hey thanks so much Dream!

I'll PM you.:D

[wickfordbard]

41. 12th house Aries Saturn

Saturn in the 12th in Aries. Mumm. How about going where no one has gone before? Saturn's reality is out there- lost in space, rather than the here and now. So how do you make use of this Saturn?

[ricochetastroman]

11. Hey Wick

THAT WAS BRILLIANTLY SAID:

"I also call the 12th the Harry Potter house - it's where we are told "You are not a wizard" when most definitely we are. Usually these are the family/genetic issues that are dumped on us because no one else in the family has the balls to deal with them."

It's what my subconscious has been hinting at, and I couldn't quite put into words. ALSO I've been getting a tremendous kick out of doing people's 12TH HARMONIC CHART! Man, does that show up karmic stuff and when it is triggered by transit, it seems to "kick in" what the soul's contract is all about. I'm still new at the 12th harmonic ... will keep updating as I find out more but I really think I'm on to something.

Thanks for the GOOD STUFF Wick

[stellanoir]

13. Rick she is an old pal and THE ABSOLUTE BEST !!!

Please encourage her with me and thanks.

[ricochetastroman]

14. I know...

I know INSIGHT when I see it.
I have such admiration when someone GROKS beyond the texts...eh?
This lady has got it. I just went to one of her websites...
INSIGHT sure beats straining to translate, does it not. Thanks to our Muses or whomever or whatever. Whatever.

You go WICK! :beer:

[stellanoir]

16. Gotta luv her

That's why I've called her for many years, "the story lady."

No One I've met has a better handle on myths.

Glad you got it.

[wickfordbard]

43. Kisses and hugs, rico

I love to be loved, any day. and part of my dream work reasserted that lucky Taurus that I am, I love love in all shapes and forms.

For instinctually grokking what I was talking about, your admiration got one shiver down the spine. (I'm allowed to say that, right?)

Wicked

[ricochetastroman]

53. make that

a retro shiver too

[wickfordbard]

42. Thanks and I'm glad the images speak to you.

I'd love to learn about the 12th harmonic. Want to share some insights?

[ricochetastroman]

54. Hey Wick the 12th harmonic

I've intuitively felt that big secrets lie in the 12th harmonic. I've been doing harmonics very heavily in my practice for the past two years. I mainly do 10th (career/spirit), 7th (of course, where is my dreamboat). I refuse 2nd (money) and 6th (health) any more.

I look closely into the 4th if I sense abuse or emotional difficulty in childhood.

Which leads me to the twelfth.

Originally I thought it told me about past lives - and it may. It is a HUGE harmonic that I believe, means many things. Lately I'VE GROKKED that it is your SOUL'S contract. Transits to it are awesomely accurate! The harmonics in general are really accurate even in terms of signs, aspects, all things.

I caution anyone using them to tread lightly on the 12th. The 10 is very helpful with job changes and even job aptitudes, etc.

Transits to the 12th are clearly showing me milestones achieved, landmarks, rights of passages, etc. in terms of a person synching up with their mission or their soul's contract.

I'm very excited about this work. As you probably know, us here astrolizers seem to go through long periods of time where we "plateau". This seems to have given me a new venue.

Good luck if you choose to study them.
Rick

[u4ic]

60. "Family/genetic issues"

"Can I relate to that!" says this Saturn in Pisces in the 12th lass.

(Moon in Cappy in the 9th squaring that Saturn, too) x(


And yes, I am the only one in my family who has consciously wanted to, and sought to, heal (it seems to be a lifetime endeavour...).

[cassiepriam]

15. Collective karma FYI

There are four main levels of karma:

1. Individual/ personal

2. Family/Group/Tribe
indicated by 11 and 8h in the natal chart, 4/10 axis, and Saturn and Pluto aspects.

3. Collective
indicated by 12 h, also 8 and 9h, outer planets and Chiron. And Pluto/Mars/Saturn aspects, particularly the conjunction. Moon in Cap, planets in Pisces, Nep/Chiron aspects.

4. Cosmic
Beyond the scope of the natal chart

[ricochetastroman]

24. Hey Cass, give this a stab:

I have Mars/Neptune at 21 Libra in IX, and Saturn at 14 Libra also in IX.
How does that relate to Karmic aspects?

Thanks

[cassiepriam]

26. Here goes:

9h is going to show karma around beliefs, ethics and publishing (dissemination of information.)
The signs and planets are going to give an indication of conformity or conflicts with established
belief systems.

From a karmic standpoint, your particular placements indicate past lives involving religion and beliefs. Past lives perhaps in which you have suffered for your beliefs. And you may have had some lives not only as victim but perpetrator as well in the suffering. It looks more like victim type issues perhaps, but also if you were a perpetrator it was because you were following the orders of others. And you have been involved with religion in a mystical spiritual way, and also a dogmatic and rigid way. You have gone back and forth over the centuries. Could have been something collective like the Inquisition or Holocaust.

You may sometimes have been cooly objective, your ideas and beliefs were more important than people. Also some lives where you let others make up your mind for you, and just followed the crowd or you blindly followed a guru. You were more escapist than religious.

I don't know if Libra is also on the cusp? That would give me more info.
And also where your NN and Chiron are placed. And the aspects to the 9 h planets.
A bit hard to do in isolation, I always look at repeating themes and issues.

In this life you are meant to use your will in an assertive way, not passive, not aggressive. And express your beliefs in a way that is true to yourself but not place you in a victim role. Or a dogmatic one. And you are to work on being more practical then a mountain top mystic. And you are to be creative, artistic, harmonious in the way you operate with your beliefs.

[BlueIris]

32. House of Resurrection. I love it.

This is my favorite part of your post, though:

"Usually these are the family/genetic issues that are dumped on us because no one else in the family has the balls to deal with them."

The farther along I get in my abuse recovery process, the more I see how far from acknowledging any of it my family members are. I think I'm the only one who's anywhere close to "clear."

[Sweet Freedom]

33. What about those of us whose 12th house is "empty"?

This was touched on in another thread, but I'm still not certain what it means. :shrug:

[cassiepriam]

39. It is not empty. Look to your moon and sun. And their aspects.

[Sweet Freedom]

48. Sorry, I don't understand

Can you explain? :hi:

[cassiepriam]

50. Your 12h is not empty, see Cancer on the cusp and Leo also there?

Their rulers are the moon and sun respectively. And you can see
the aspects between them. Hard ones. A bit of karma there to work on.

Means that you may have been a bit possessive and power hungry in past lives. Time to let go of that in this life.

[Sweet Freedom]

55. Thank you. I thought it was empty! /nt

[cassiepriam]

56. No house is empty. Look at the signs....

[NMDemDist2]

17. I have Saturn in my 12th

and this lifetime feels like the end of an era, a final visit and has been about major karmic cleansing

i'm no astrologist, but that's what is happening here for me now

[cassiepriam]

18. Houses

Houses seem to be the step children of the astro world.
Not much in depth work has been done on the houses, at least from a karmic standpoint.
That may be true for traditional astrology as well.

And of course some houses are more complex, such as the 8 and 12.
These houses are sufficiently meaty to warrant books written solely about them.

[cassiepriam]

19. The junk

is really all over the natal chart so to speak, not just 12h.
The whole chart shows our karmic debts and gifts, past lives, soul evolution.

[ricochetastroman]

25. here here

hear hear

[cassiepriam]

27. Are some people saying that karma is only indicated in 12h?

How strange.

The entire natal chart is soul DNA, karmic history.

I think some folks have no idea why we have the charts
we do.

It is all karma. Every bit of it.

[stellanoir]

28. Nah that's traditional bunk.

It's everywhere once you start viewing it from that perspective for sure,

[cassiepriam]

29. I am scandalized they think that! Wow.

[cassiepriam]

22. 12 house

The 12 house is the place where our souls have the opportunity to reconnect with the whole or the Divine. The individual ego is dissolved and the soul merges into the collective whole, not with our minds, but with our hearts and soul.

The houses represent the souls attempt to establish the self, then the self in terms of others, and then finally losing the self to merge back to unity. In 12h the soul comes full circle.

The house where we surrender ego to merge with God. Some have no real sense of self to dissolve, they have only delusions. Others surrender in a destructive fashion.

So yes Rick you are correct it is a tremendous opportunity to evolve, and advance spiritually.
To clear up any issues that should be addressed in this life. It is the accumulation of debts from many past lives that will have to be cleared prior to ascension. Can also be debts we have volunteered to clear for others.

[BlueIris]

30. Woah...now WHAT now? Debts cleared for *others*?

How does that work? How can one tell if they've volunteered to do something like that for another soul?

[Why Syzygy]

31. I thought she meant

the 'collective' others?

[ricochetastroman]

34. The way I get it

The way I get it, and it is strange... is that there's only one of us.
Period.
Every book we read says the same thing: Separation is an illusion.
That makes one's head spin.

[cassiepriam]

36. Collective karma

There are different levels of karma we are working on, personal karma is only one kind.

Group karma can be seen in the 11h. This can be family, friends, tribes, race, etc.

Collective karma can be seen in 12h, Pisces, Moon in cap. Collective karma from all that has gone before, in a sense it is the karma of the human race. No one person is solely responsible for it, but an individual may have been a part of it in past lives, purges, wars, etc. Some people incarnate with the intent of clearing this kind of karma for the greater good. Such as folks born after WWII who are trying to clear debt from that war. And Americans now will have to come back in the future to take on the bad karma we are creating now under Bush.

These are the levels of karma: personal, family, group, collective, cosmic.

There are also many types of karma: Merit, recompense,redemptive,retributive, attitudinal, organic, work, etc etc.

[davsand]

37. So with my 11th in Aries, nd the Moon, Venus and Mercury in it that is Group Karma?

I had always assumed that my direct (maybe BLUNT?) approach to life was in part because of that Moon and Mercury hanging out together in Aries, (supplemented by that Venus, of course!) but I'm having a problem understanding what that would mean in terms of karma if that is the house of group energy.

Would that be manifested by political activity maybe? Is THAT what has driven me to this "horrid political addiction" of mine? I want change and I want it yesterday? Is THAT what this is all about? Shoot, I had just figured it was the company I've been keeping but now I'm wondering if it isn't more deeply rooted than that.

:)

More stuff to consider!!! You guys ALWAYS amaze and delight me, I swear!



Laura

[cassiepriam]

38. Can you look and see what aspects you have to the 11h planets?

I am especially interested in any outer planets, nodes, and Chiron aspecting
any of the planets in the 11h.

And the Aries Moon is a very karmic powerful moon with interesting past lives!
I need just a bit more info and I will tell you about it.

[davsand]

40. Here is what I have.

I dunno if a chart would be easier to deal with, I can probably get you a link to one. I also have a list of aspects if that offers any help...

Here's a text format of my chart:

Sun Taurus 4.26
Moon Aries 19.35
Mercury Aries 12.29
Venus Aries 18.42
Mars Pisces 17.14
Jupiter Capricorn 3.35 R
Saturn Capricorn 18.25
Uranus Leo 16.55
Neptune Scorpio 7.52 R
Pluto Virgo 3.40 R
Lilith Gemini 28.28
Asc node Virgo 24.09

Chiron Pisces 1.04
Ceres Aquarius 20.45
Pallas Capricorn 27.47
Juno Sagittarius 27.10 R
Vesta Capricorn 15.49
Fortune Aries 0.00
South node Aries 0.00



Placidus Orb:
Ascendant Cancer 10.48
II Leo 0.29
III Leo 22.28
IV Virgo 19.58
V Libra 25.26
VI Sagittarius 5.24
VII Capricorn 10.48
VIII Aquarius 0.29
IX Aquarius 22.28
Midheaven Pisces 19.58
XI Aries 25.26
XII Gemini 5.24

Any info will be greatly appreciated! :)


Laura

[cassiepriam]

44. Oh if you could get your chart that would be much easier for me!

Many thanks.....

[davsand]

45. I'm trying!

Does this come up?

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/astro/page?name=Laura&firstname=&birthplace=Danville,%20IL&lang=en&sex=f&dformat=0&date=4/24/1960&time=10:3&country=1&state=17&adjust=5.00&long=87.37&lat=40.07

[cassiepriam]

46. Yes thanks! I will look at it!

Interesting how they do the houses at cafeastro,
or I should say, don't do them. :)

[cassiepriam]

47. I am sorry to be confused, but it looks like your Aries stellium is in 10h

not 11?

Maybe it is just me, I am having trouble reading the house placements
with this chart....

[davsand]

49. I sent you a link to an Astrodienst chart.

Maybe that will be easier to deal with...

Sorry!


Laura

[cassiepriam]

51. Many thanks!

[cassiepriam]

52. Yes your Aries stellium is 10h, not 11. That is not group karma.

That is parenting karma, you have lot there in that area.
Your 11h is sun in Tau. Will look at that.

Still with that Aries moon you have had some interesting past lives... will tell you about it in next post.

[cassiepriam]

57. Your group karma past lives indicate issues around self worth.

Actually you have been doing much better in recent past lives and healed up some of the damage from earlier ones. In these lives your self worth was ether inflated or under valued. Tended to look to powerful men, may have been in power struggles. You spent some time feeling like a martyr. The theme of addictions keeps coming up over and over again in your chart. So you had some issues with groups or family around issues of self worth and perhaps drug or alcohol use. And you suffered for it. But has been getting much better in recent past lives.

Aries moon tends to mean past lives of being a rescuer, a knight in shining armor. Also brash and self focused, impetuous.

[davsand]

58. Yes. Yes to all the above.

I don't know if I should fall over or run screaming but both responses feel just about right to me after reading what you have to say.

Thank you for taking time with this. I really do appreciate it. Will you be offended if I send you a PM with some comments?


Laura

[cassiepriam]

59. LOL Don't run screaming or fall over please :)

And of course, please send me a pm with any questions or comments!
Any and all feedback, negative and postive is appreciated.