A question about forgiveness...

[kentauros]

I listen to HayHouse Radio often and many of the hosts speak of the power of forgiveness, no matter how negative the injustice against you or others. They also point out just how difficult it can be for us to realize it. I know I have difficulty with it, and try to both have compassion and remind people of being compassionate, especially on a board that criticizes the right for lacking it (I've also been called "sanctimonious" for having the audacity to espouse it here.)

I really should stay either out of GD, or have the willpower to not click on those threads that I can just tell will be nothing but one negative post after another. I didn't manage yet again, this time with the thread about Carter Strange being asked if he had any forgiveness for his attackers. Initially, I could say that I don't understand how we could say we're compassionate for our fellow human beings and then it turns out to be just lip-service, but I always react that way to such threads. And then I realize that way too many people really just don't understand the concept. Yeah, it's really difficult to forgive those that do you harm, but it's always the right thing to do in the long run, as I understand it.

Or am I mixed up on the concept?

[FirstLight]

1. for me...

forgiveness is much more of a personal thing. It affects us in our own lives, carrying our wounds, it affects our ability to hold love & light when we are unforgiving of self...

I think you(meaning, anyone) have to have clocked some time on that part before you can expand the circle to include the horrors of life on this planet and the awfulness some humans seem hell bent on doing. right now we are all SO maxed out on the horrors of the world, but we should be doing the inner work...it's truly the key to anchoring more light on the planet and healing the collective wounds...

did you see my post earlier this week on forgiveness? it may hold some insight too...

[OneGrassRoot]

2. I have an odd knee-jerk reaction to the word "forgiveness"

I don't understand it, but I bristle when that word is used in conjunction with harm having been caused to someone, including myself.

I believe I understand the concept, but certainly putting it into practice is easier said than done. I definitely believe we must release anger, resentment, etc. related to the harm caused by others, as we know that only drains us. Self-forgiveness is important as well.

Instead, what works for me personally, is to think of the person in question who I am supposed to "forgive" and get into a space to genuinely send them blessings.

To say "bless you" holds soooooooo much meaning and emotion for me. It includes, but encompasses so much more, than forgiveness.

So I bless someone I'm angry with...when I can get into the space to truly do so...rather than say I forgive them.

:hug:

[MorningGlow]

3. What you're seeing

is humanity's "split personality"--on the one hand, we all know we're supposed to forgive our enemies etc.; on the other hand, that small voice inside us has much influence, especially when it growls "Don't be a sucker!" Apparently compassion is only allowable when it's easy and makes the forgiver look good. The harder part (as all our sages have taught us through the ages) is forgiving others when there's nothing in it for us...or, apparently, when it makes us look like doormats.

For the record, I don't agree with any of that (the "be tough" viewpoint). I also view the concept of "forgiveness" slightly differently. I think it's very hard to TRULY forgive someone you have strong negative feelings about--I mean, to honestly not mind what they did to you and feel love for them--but perhaps it's enough to take a step back and recognize that the person you're hating is also a spiritual being who's playing a role in this lifetime, who is nasty this time around but will be a kind and generous person in the next incarnation. By doing that, it takes the oomph out of our anger and keeps us on a better track. Then, slowly, we can work on the specifics--not hating that person. :shrug:

[BrendaBrick]

4. I just have to comment on this....

For years I have been trying to forgive and I can't. Know why? Because my body simply won't let me! It does not FEEL GOOD or natural to entertain this notion of forgiveness...because I think I have been trying too hard to force it before its own due time.

I wholeheartedly agree that forgiveness IS a personal thing and should never be dictated or suggested by someone else...to do so is being presumptuous and self-righteous.

Noted author and (forward-thinking) therapist, Susan Forward has this to say about forgiveness:

Article/Blog:

Forgive and forget: It's not always good advice

Cinderella may have lived happily ever after, but she would have had to overlook Prince Charming's inevitable midriff bulge and his roving eye.

Day-to-day survival can take the shine off any relationship, especially if a couple hasn't learned to overlook the annoying little mannerisms and personality quirks that make each of us human.

And what about those indiscretions or infidelities, before and after the relationship was established? Which ones are forgivable? Alan wrote us that after his wedding, his bride gave him herpes. "I would have left her when I found out," he said, "except we discovered she was pregnant."
He stayed in the relationship for his child's sake but never forgave his wife "Every time I have a herpes flare-up, I find myself looking at her with anger and fantasizing about who gave it to her ... and when."

According to the Judeo-Christian ethic, "To err is human, to forgive divine."
Not so, according to Susan Forward, Ph.D., author of "Emotional Blackmail" and "Toxic Parents." Forward maintains that it isn't necessary to forgive in order to feel better about yourself and to change the direction of your relationships.
"As a therapist, I began to wonder if attempting to forgive someone could actually impede the emotional healing process rather than enhance it," says Forward. "That's because there are two facets to (the concept of) forgiveness. Giving up the need for revenge, and absolving the guilty party of responsibility.

"On the one hand, letting go of your negative need for revenge is difficult, but it's a healthy step in the right direction and frees you to go on to other more productive emotions. On the other hand, absolving a person of responsibility may be a trap.

"Absolution is really another form of denial," says Forward. "If I absolve you of responsibility, we can pretend that what happened wasn't so terrible."
"The most dangerous thing about forgiveness, in the traditional sense, is that it keeps you from being angry at the other person. How can you be angry with someone you've already forgiven? What happens is that when you can't send your angry feeling outward unto the offending person, you may end up turning your anger inward ... onto yourself. How could I have been so stupid not to have recognized my partner's failings?"

Forward suggests that it is possible to forgive an offending partner, but adds: "A person should do it at the conclusion -- not the beginning -- of his or her own emotional house-cleaning."
Who is really responsible? Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions and each of us makes mistakes along the way. The secret to an acceptable and happy life is to strive not to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Andy's wife may not have known she had herpes when she married him. And she certainly didn't ask for the disease. They are both victims of a virus and the inconsiderate behavior of the person who gave it to her. Together, they need to stop diminishing or discounting the damage done to them both, and to openly confront their intense feelings of outrage, grief and fear.

Acceptance of a reality is the first step to letting it go once and for all. It's entirely possible to be angry with a situation, circumstance or event, without continuing to harbor anger toward the person involved. Pity -- and mercy -- should play a role in any relationship.

"Forgiveness is the exercise of compassion," claims Joan Borysenko, Ph.D., author of "Guilt is the Teacher, Love is the Lesson." It is both a process and an attitude.
Borysenko suggests that the process toward forgiveness is to take personal responsibility for your role in a particular outcome. Discuss how each of you could have done things differently. Look for the good points in your partner and accept his or her past as part of a learning experience. We all have weaknesses. The way we grow is to learn from our mistakes.
Be willing to make amends where possible for any pain you may have caused. Look for help from whatever source you respect and then share what you've learned with others.
Compassion is contagious.

Jaine Carter, Ph.D., and James D. Carter, Ph.D., write for Scripps Howard News Service. The can be reached on line at cartercarter.com.

Source: http://members.shaw.ca/pdg/need_we_forgive_them.html

For me perhaps the most telling sentence in all of that is this:

"Acceptance of a reality is the first step to letting it go once and for all."

Yup. It is what it is.

Hey! Wanna hear somethin' funny that's giving me goosebumps right now? I'm listening to Comcast music channel right now..."The Blues" station and as I was typing the last sentence....guess what plays? "It Is What It Is" by Hard Believer 2009. WOW!!!!! IS THAT WEIRD OR WHAT!!!!!

Note: I don't necessarily agree with everything that Borysenko has to say ~

on edit: attempted to establish paragraphs for easier viewing.

[Why Syzygy]

5. Thanks...

I like what she says. Before I read your post, if I were to comment on the OP, I WANTED to suggest that "forgiveness" is over rated.
It comes from that religion that most of us have rejected. Due to all the awful things that happen on the planet, I have to think that a certain group, "TED" (the evil doers), really WANT us to be all forgiving of their murders, thefts and subjugation. If you're going to falsely imprison someone, of course you want them to have an ethos of FORGIVENESS! Some things are beyond forgiving. Maybe that makes me less spiritual to some. That's something I don't care about, really.

I've got to do some more noodling about this. This is actually a brand new concept for me.

[BanzaiBonnie]

8. My view of forgiveness is pretty much in line with that

I must take care of the healing within myself first. Self-care is first and foremost the most important thing you can do. Letting go of any need for revenge is a great wayof ending the process to release the trauma from your body.

My concept of forgiving the other person is not about letting them off the hook for their action, but that I release the event so they have the responsibility for their action.

[OneGrassRoot]

13. What a wonderfully concise way to put it:

"I release the event so they have the responsibility for their action."

:thumbsup:

:hug:

[Mist]

6. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what "forgiveness" means. It means

"giving up anger against," no longer putting energy into anger over something. It does NOT mean "whatever harm someone did me is okay." It just means giving up anger over something.

I'm unable to give up anger over many things, but I work on chipping away at it around the edges. Example: I was raised by abusive alcoholics. In looking at their circumstances when they were being raised by my grandparents, I realized my parents were raised to be obedient, i.e., to be kids forever. I was raised by people who were essentially children. Knowing this has helped me release a lot of anger, just because I've realized it's pointless to be angry at blundering kids.

I don't know if I've made much sense in this post, but being able to release anger really does make me feel lighter and healthier.

[Kind of Blue]

7. From BrendaBrick's response, pity and mercy

- when one can get there, is biggie for me. How does one forgive when one of the methods is to own up to your part of the situation - when you didn't know there was a situation? :rofl:
I was introduced to the concepts of pity and mercy after my NDE and I found out that the supervisor of the blood bank in the hospital I worked and had my operation had totally given my own donated blood for the operation to someone else. And of course, I bled to death.

She was a new gal and I didn't work in her department, but she took an instant dislike to me. I can honestly say I've felt the same about some. But no amount of smiling or greetings could even chip away at her, so I left her alone since I didn't have to work directly with her.

I felt no smugness knowing that she and the department were being investigated. I just couldn't understand why I felt so sorry for her until I realized what an awful place she exists. Every time I thought of her my mind filled with darkness like I was in a huge void of nothingness and the ickiness was palatable. The feeling that someone could actually be alive in such a state fills me with so much sadness. So many times since then it's been easy to forgive when I think of what state the other is in. I know it sounds pat and dry but so far it works for me.

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Dear Goddess...

I don't recall knowing that detail before: that you bled to death.

:wow:

Thanks for mentioning the role of pity and mercy. That's powerful.

I'm just stunned by this story, and so very grateful you chose to stay, KoB.

:loveya:

:hug:

[Kind of Blue]

14. Yeah, I kind of think both words are the

components of compassion.
Thank you, OGR! Glad to be here another morning, Thank Goddess :hug: :hug: :hug:

[WolverineDG]

9. Here's my take on it

Forgiveness, to me, means letting go of the anger & other negative feelings you have against someone else because of what they did to you in the past. It frees you in ways you can't imagine, until you do it.

I recently posted about a former bully of mine who contacted me via email given to her by one of my friends. We eventually met for lunch when I was in town & I found out just what a horror story her life had become. Karma? Who knows. Anyway, no one deserved the pile of shit that had been dumped on her. In the end, to cap it all off, she grabbed my arm, looked me in the eyes, & said "Thank you." Thank you, she said, for taking the time to be with her & letting her tell me she was sorry she'd been such an asshole to me for years.

And with that, all the anger & resentment I'd been carrying for decades just seemed pointless, so I dropped it.

We're still not best buddies, won't ever be, but when she contacts me (infrequently) I respond. Just because I forgave her doesn't mean I have to let her back into my life. I just wish her well & help her out with what I can. From a distance.

dg

[Kind of Blue]

10. Now, that's a good point: "Just because I forgave her...

doesn't mean I have to let her back..." I've always had a problem with forgetting as a test of forgiveness.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. I agree with you both. :) n/t

[WolverineDG]

15. but "forgetting" is a part of forgiving

I used to waste loads of time remembering all the crap this girl did to me....and after I met her & let all that anger go, I don't do that anymore. I think that's what the "forget" part means. I don't see "forgiving & forgetting" meaning that you have to let the person back into your life in the same place they once occupied.

(does that make sense?)

dg

[Kind of Blue]

16. Makes perfect sense to me.

Well, I think forgive and remember is more aligned with me. I'm sure in essence we're saying the same thing. What I mean is that forgiveness to me is being able to remember past pain without the flareup of resentment, revenge, self-flagellation, et cetera.

[felix_numinous]

17. I think a lot of people think forgiveness involves condoning

what someone has done, and that stops them in their tracks. For me forgiveness is a process I have worked on all my life. When I was younger, I said the words that I forgive someone, but as I got older i realized that this was not enough.

Now I realize that at the root of a trauma is that we blame ourselves for getting involved, for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, for not being strong enough or witty enough to stand up to someone who is abusive, and this is how the emotional energy imbeds itself in our bodies.

I have been reading Steven Levine's book, Healing into Life and Death, which is a very very heavy book. It is not an easy book for me to pick up right now, but it is helping me face my cancer. I am having to forgive myself for getting cancer!! I have tears as I write this, as I know these words I type are for me as well as for you. Levine has some phenomenal guided meditations in this book and a whole section on forgiveness.

A deep part of us blames ourselves for being hurt, even if we defend ourselves, residual pain from traumas comes from us 'taking in' the pain, and I think that a tiny part of us accepts the insults on some level even if we don't on the surface. Otherwise insults would not hurt at all. So to me this is the work of forgiveness, to move the energy out of our fields.

Another important aspect of letting go for me is to clarify what I am getting rid of. I need to write it out (& write letters to the person I have issues with!!), do art, and bring back the event in order to distill what I am letting go of. For me I cannot just say the words--'I forgive you' or 'I let go' of something--without knowing WHAT I am letting go of. So I work on the mental level of writing about it, the energy level of envisioning the energy, and the physical level by knowing where this experience lives in my body, and the emotional level by practicing self-love and opening my heart--to myself.

Forgiveness is self love first, and a lifelong continuous awareness. For sensitive types, who are like sponges and work on others, this is vital.

Peace to all here, from an ASAH lurker, Beth

[Kind of Blue]

18. Bravo, felix_numinous! And thank you.

"Forgiveness is self love first, and a lifelong continuous awareness."
I really appreciate everything you've expressed and how you've said it. I know that I will read this over and over again.

Sending healing energy for complete recovery, Beth. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[felix_numinous]

20. OMG what a quick response

thank you for the Bright energy, I spend a lot of time being grateful for all the kind peopleI can think of in the world.....and now that includes you....:hug:

[Kind of Blue]

22. YAY! I can feel it :)

[OneGrassRoot]

19. Bless you....

What a magnificent sharing, Beth.

Another important aspect of letting go for me is to clarify what I am getting rid of. I need to write it out (& write letters to the person I have issues with!!), do art, and bring back the event in order to distill what I am letting go of. For me I cannot just say the words--'I forgive you' or 'I let go' of something--without knowing WHAT I am letting go of. So I work on the mental level of writing about it, the energy level of envisioning the energy, and the physical level by knowing where this experience lives in my body, and the emotional level by practicing self-love and opening my heart--to myself.

Forgiveness is self love first, and a lifelong continuous awareness. For sensitive types, who are like sponges and work on others, this is vital.

Beautiful. :loveya:

Blessings and hugs sent your way as you continue your journey.....



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[felix_numinous]

21. Thank you

for the hugs, you have great energy too! I am just grateful for all the good peeps I have crossed paths with and those I haven't-- everyone in this imaginary little star system. Expanding into the space created by kindness gives me the strength to send kind thoughts to people caught in misery..and I ask for help to send that out.. :hug:

[kentauros]

23. Thanks, y'all, for all your thought-provoking posts!

I enjoyed reading them all, even as I had no time to reply (work overload.)

Now I just have to build on my former ideas on it and remember the new one ;)