A suggestion made *not* in the spirit of the season

[Oak2004]

The hardest punch I ever took in martial arts sparring was not delivered by a fist.

It was at a weeklong ninjutsu workshop, on the very last day. The instructor was walking us through the basic kata, from earth all the way through air. We were at the air kata, which in ninjutsu is the kata associated with the heart and with circular movements. Like the previous kata, we were to do the basic form but without kicks and punches, only with angry energy and a wagging finger on the part of the aggressor and an appropriate emotional response and movement by the receiver. For air, the receiver was to smile, raise his or her hands in a gesture of peace or surrender, and spin out of the way of the wagging finger, all while consciously feeling love for the aggressor. Like the previous kata, when it was my time to attack I mustered my best angry act, and thrust my finger out. And it felt like a slap on the face.

It wasn't just me or my sparring partner. I saw a lot of my fellow students looking as if they had just had the wind knocked out of them, and I spoke with some of them afterward about their experience of the exercise. I had known of and used the power of love in political conflicts before that, but I hadn't expected the silly little exercise would have such a visceral effect.

Fast-forward to today. I was talking to a friend who was thinking about all the possible things that could happen if someone who had wronged her decided to further harm her. Finally, I had to point out to her how much she was fearing that person. Initially she objected, until I said that I didn't mean adrenaline fear, I meant cognitive fear, focusing her attention towards that person solely on the potential of the individual to do more harm, and plotting responses to each contingency. I suggested instead that she try using compassion. I wasn't suggesting this from the point of view of hearts and flowers and teddy bears, but rather because if she was in a fight, I thought she should arm herself with her best punch.

Compassion is a two-edged sword. On the one hand it warmly invites would-be enemies to lay down their arms -- indeed, to never pick them up in the first place -- and join with you, their friend. On the other hand no other approach so ferociously turns the attack of an enemy against itself (in fact I keep a genuine two-edged sword for that very reason, as a symbol and reminder).

Also today, I read a thread in GD where a Christian spoke about how the Christianity of the Bible was diametrically opposed to the Christianity of the far right. Some of the responses were favorable. Others were angry denunciations of all things religious or spiritual, and still others complained that the author's religion was privileged, and it oppressed their own minority religion. Nothing especially unusual, I know, for GD.

The confluence of these two events reminded me of something that sits like a leaden overcast over ASAH. ASAH was created out of , and continues to live, in fear. Fear of the atheists, fear of the skeptics, fear of every species and subspecies of DU woo-watcher. Early on, someone here even tried to recruit me to go argue with the atheists, figuring I might score some points for the woo-riors since I had been an atheist myself.

And so I'm proposing a different approach, to anyone here in the mood for adventure (I'm not a cat herder, and don't expect to become one, and so I'm not delusionally proposing some mandatory ASAH policy). That suggestion is to go fight with the atheists armed with your best punch.

That doesn't mean go with a feigned smile on your face and saccharine words, intending to sell your ideas with apparent kindness. Those are the skills of used car salesmen, not your best punch. Go to the combative areas of DU, seek out your enemy, ask to learn from them, and mean it. Listen carefully what they have to say. Follow through diligently in reading suggested links. Ask sincere followup questions. Even ask them what you, as a nonnonbeliever (what a word there) can do to not offend them as much. Don't pretend to be someone you're not, and don't try to hide your opinions (also don't take advice that you would least offend them by studying to become your own rectoscope), but do try to learn something from them. If this sounds altogether too hard to do from skeptics, think of them instead as students of "reason yoga"-- that is, in essence, what they are. And while none of us here might be interested in becoming a devotee of Sri Guru Randi (whose practices may seem dubious and whose followers may seem a bit cultlike), who among us can say we have mastered every aspect of rationality and can learn nothing more of it?

What could come of this? One possibility is that you'll gain some skeptic friends, and some skeptics will learn to talk about their friends in the woo.

But what if that doesn't happen? What if They don't want to be friends? What if They act mean and nasty and reinforce every reason you ever had to fear Them? Then you win. They will get overwrought and increasingly irrational, painfully and obviously so, as they try to get you to lose your cool so that they don't have to feel the rawness of their own state of mind coming back at them. And for every one of "them" that dances a frantic dance of bitterness and bile across your browser tab at you, one hundred lurkers will watch and think, "hmm, that skeptic guy looks crazy, I mean, really really insane. But the one they call woo -- WOW-- I wonder what makes that one tick?". If you could speed a hundred souls toward liberation by letting an internet skeptic make an ass of himself in public, while you sip your iced tea and make out a shopping list in the background, wouldn't you do it? ;) (Why do I feel that an article is crying out to be written about how the internet is weakening traditional bodhisattva/grass community bonds?)

Of course other things could happen. After a little while you could get bored and lose interest in any of this (as well as any fear of those boring people). Or you could learn some things and change your mind about a few things. You could even be persuaded of the truth of rationalism and materialism, in which case I say congratulations in finding a practice that speaks to your needs at this time. Or, after all the dust settles on your adventure, you will have found within yourself a deeper capacity to love.

As I said I am not a cat herder and don't want to be one. A lot of us barely have time for this forum let alone any multi-forum adventures. Some of us know we're not in the right state of mind or body (perhaps we're ill) to be able to keep our cool. Some of us never had any interest in any battling with anyone about anything, not even to fear such battles, and find this "adventure" to be excruciatingly boring on the face of it. Some might object that they've been hurt so many times throughout their lives that they simply cannot take any more pain, and that's fine too. Compassion will still be there waiting for them whenever they are ready to learn to give as good a punch as they get. And still others have a very good reason to avoid this even if they can't put their finger on it: love isn't just a two edged sword, it's a two-pointed one. It has a way not only of turning back the attacks of your enemies, but of inviting one's own aggression to get under one's skin. There's hundreds, if not thousands, of reasons who someone ought not take up this suggestion at this time.

In the interest in full disclosure, I'm not sure whether I'll take up my own suggestion because, frankly, I'm not sure "they" isn't me. I still identify with much of freethought, to the point where I might as well fit in there, were it not that I've come down with a mild case of the woo. On balance I find it easier to come here and stay out of the topics I consider dubious, than to hang out there and pass my touch of the woo off as hot flashes and a dust mite allergy, though I've only rarely had issues with skeptics and atheists online (well, actually, I do have a few, but those issues are less about skepticism than about a few people with an ulterior motive trying to spread deliberate lies under the banner of "skepticism").

I make this proposal not in the spirit of the season. Sure, this is the season of "peace on earth" and "goodwill to men" (and, I imagine, "Salvation Army to women", or something like that). But anything worth doing on December 20th, 21st, or the 25th is equally worth doing on March 14th or August 10th or June 28th or February 11th (scratch that: don't go sledding on August 10th or June 28th), and do-gooders who do good precisely one week out of fifty two irritate me. I've made this proposal now because I've been freshly reminded why the fear I sometimes see here is unfortunate.

[OneGrassRoot]

1. Wish I could recommend this....

One of my oddities is that I tend to read the very last paragraph before reading the rest of a written work, be it a longer forum post or a book. I thought your post was going to be about the hypocrisy of the "spirit of the holidays" and how it should extend throughout the year. I was SO on board with that, as I tend to feel all bah humbug this time of year for that very reason; well, one of the reasons. ;)

So, I was surprised what the true message of your OP was all about. I've told you before how much I value what you say, and how you say it. I don't want to get all gushy and obnoxious, so suffice it to say that I greatly appreciate every single syllable you write.

What a great observation about ASAH being founded, in a way, in fear. I never thought about that before, but sanctuaries are two-sided: they provide refuge, yet if we seek refuge, it's from something we fear or dread.

I think you covered all bases as to why others will not feel called to "dive in" and engage; many won't feel a need, as they don't have a fear or dread or even see a battle.

I'm responding here because I do resonate and your post does speak to me.

I went through this very recently...and am still finding my way with the whole "battle" energy. I won't consciously or overtly seek battle, but I suppose I do so passively. I'm compelled to say things that I know have a good chance of inviting conflict with some skeptics (I'm speaking more about FB political discussions rather than DU experiences, but it's the same "fear/us/them" energy); after being blind-sided the first few times -- surprised at how what I felt were seemingly benign posts were being attacked -- I became more mindful of the whole process and did the whole "standing in my truth" thing.

And, being an empath, the process would involve me -- albeit clumsily -- putting myself in their shoes, trying to understand how what I was saying made them feel and wanting to truly get to the heart of the attacks -- which are based in fear. I want to understand their fear, I want to understand my fear. I want to understand fear, so it can be released and transformed.

Then there was the very personal, very direct attack I felt recently in a relationship, which is in a different category than political or skeptic-woo discussions. This was very personal and very direct. From my perception, there was nothing about me standing in my truth or putting myself in the other person's shoes that was ameliorating the situation. Me not backing down, and doing so calmly, DID enrage the other person. At the end of the day, there was no real resolution or "winner," as I see it. The positions (and intentions and motives) were so vastly different that I just have no real closure. I will say it absolutely sucked all the life out of me for a while. It was a true battle...emotionally, mentally, spiritually...and it affected me physically.

Maybe that's what you mean about persons with ulterior motives; I believe that was the case in my recent "battle."

Your point about fear -- evaluating it and then acting upon it if so led -- is very well taken. I evaluate it as it pertains to many things but I must say I haven't as it pertains to skeptics and the woo, especially here at DU.

I will do so from now on, because your post definitely speaks to me. I am someone who will avoid most conflict when possible and take great pains to word things in a way so as not to offend, or generate conflict -- not out of being wishy-washy or "wanting everyone to like me," but because I do truly try to put myself in others' shoes; actually, I don't have to try, it just happens more often than not.

Still, I know I have avoided engaging in the battles here about woo and alternate healing because, quite frankly, I feel ill-equipped to engage. My beliefs aren't largely based in facts and details, as is the case with many others here. (That statement alone -- regardless of what it pertains to -- is enough to invite attack and genuine anger from MANY directions...lol). You guys are SERIOUSLY brilliant about scientific things. Not me. I'm all about emotion and feeling and intuition -- and what is common sense for ME. Sure, I try to stay informed about facts, but I must admit most of it is WAY over my head. And, honestly, it doesn't even bother me. I love to gather information...all types of information, but I think I process it differently. I'm more attuned to how facts and information make me feel...and how I observe they make others feel. I guess I'm much more intuition-based than I realized.

I'm less apt to engage others about the specifics of the argument, but more about why they feel so passionately about arguing it, and how they're arguing it.

But, again, your point is well taken, and I appreciate the thought process you've triggered this morning.

:hi:

:hug:

[Oak2004]

6. Not only is love not always reciprocated in kind, it often is not

Then there was the very personal, very direct attack I felt recently in a relationship, which is in a different category than political or skeptic-woo discussions. This was very personal and very direct. From my perception, there was nothing about me standing in my truth or putting myself in the other person's shoes that was ameliorating the situation. Me not backing down, and doing so calmly, DID enrage the other person.

It's an utter myth that loving someone who consciously intends harm will turn them into good guys (at least in anything like the short run).

A loving response sways people whose unpleasantness was unthinking or ignorant. But if someone really means harm and they know it, they become enraged by such a response and escalate the situation.

Gandhi didn't win independence for India by being so loving that British soldiers and police put down their arms and everyone gathered in a big circle and sang Kumbaya. What happened was that British authorities reacted in rage, and world opinion was repulsed by the ensuing brutality. After a century of lynchings and several years of violence directed against the movement, the leaders of the civil rights movement had no illusions about what was going to happen on the way to Montgomery. And had their opponents been clear thinking enough to ignore the march, it would have had no impact. But their opponents could not contain their rage, the public was horrified, and the marchers won.

And I'll lay money that G. W. Bush will die quietly in his bed, unlike Gandhi and King and a whole lot of other people whose personal material reward for love was an assassin's bullet.

Sometimes love wins precisely because it is so very hated that the rats come out of the woodwork and expose themselves.

But that can't happen if the situation is configured so that the rage is one-on-one. It only works when there are observers who will recoil at the predictable brutality. This isn't impossible at the level of business -- the "observer" can be, for example, the courts, when presented with proof of breach of fiduciary duty and breach of contract, after a partner openly declares they intend to sabotage the business and business relationship. Though, granted, a loving attitude will preserve one's sanity more than a hateful one even in one on one, unobserved, settings.

At the end of the day, there was no real resolution or "winner," as I see it. The positions (and intentions and motives) were so vastly different that I just have no real closure. I will say it absolutely sucked all the life out of me for a while. It was a true battle...emotionally, mentally, spiritually...and it affected me physically.

Some of the best things that have ever happened to me were muddled messes that drained me and had no apparent resolution. Those were the kinds of situations that forced me to reevaluate everything about myself and my attitudes, digging ever deeper over years until what emerged was serious and unexpected transformation (though I spent most of that time feeling completely lost and not like I was working through anything. If anything I felt like I was running away from unresolved messes that just wouldn't stay runnable-awayable).

Maybe that's what you mean about persons with ulterior motives; I believe that was the case in my recent "battle."

What I was referring to was a specific instance in which some bullies with a grudge managed to hoodwink Randi into declaring that a friend of mine is engaged in a hoax. Never mind that every conceivable authority, investigator, and scientific researcher with actual knowledge of what is going on thinks otherwise. Never mind that it would be odd for anyone to hoax a phenomenon which is already well accepted by the relevant scientific authorities. For a supposed "Reason Yoga" master, he is incredibly gullible and prone to ill-informed snap judgments. But then, his only expertise is as an entertainer, and it shows.

[rosesaylavee]

2. Thanks for the reminder about compassion and deeply listening ...

I am blessed to have a variety of friends who range in beliefs from both sides and middle of the skeptic/atheist~spiritual/woo spectrum. And have learned that as much as I think a certain way is the right one, it's not everyone's path. I think we will all get to the same place eventually anyway so why should I care how they get there? Just glad there is 'somewhere' we are all going. And I guess that is a belief that many would challenge too. :)

Best of the season to you Oak! Stay warm!

[BanzaiBonnie]

3. Beautifully expressed

There are times when I will express myself to those with whom I disagree. But I always check in with myself to make sure my response is not out of fear or anger.

And then for me, the most powerful moment is when I say the Ho'oponopono prayer (to myself). I love you, thank you for this opportunity to make things right, please forgive me, I forgive you.

It basically returns us to a state of Unity.

[FirstLight]

4. what I take away from this is personal...

while i totally agree with the spirit of the 'non-seanonal' approach, and hope to foster that in my continuing interactions... it spoke to me of the upcoming time to be spent with my family tomorrow.. thanks.

My sister & hubby are fundies, and very spoiled. Never had to scrap for anything in their lives, and I have probably been harboring a fair share of resentment for that over the years. Add to this mix my judgemental mother, who loves us, but really doesn;t know me at all when it comes to my true self. she would freak if she knew i was pot-friendly, and manages to always make a comment like"you don;t need that, it makes you fat..." when i pour a glass of wine (and yes, mother, I *DO* need that glass of wine to deal with the family bullshit! lol)My dad is losing his marbles, and tends to be more out of sorts than not... but he has always been a verbally abusive ass, add to that he is a die-hard Beck and O'Reilly listener, and we have very little to talk about.

I always feel awkward, like what i wear or how little i contribute to the feast or presents is under scrutiny.
And it is most likely my OWN feelings of inadequacy that are surfacing...right?

and really, as dysfunctional as my family *is*...the really do love me and the kids. in their own way...and they mean it.

so i choose to be "air" tomorrow and smile and be grateful for the lessons and the mirror they offer me...

thanks for the powerful ideas to meditate on...
:loveya:

[bigmonkey]

5. A bit of testimony about these adventures.

Occasionally I have been able to do something like this, even here on DU, and it truly is a remarkable thing to experience. It's not an achievement, it's an experience, coming from engagement. I don't always have the balance necessary to simultaneously not lash out, to listen, to use reason and evidence, and to tell my truth of the moment, but I've seen it both enrage and cut through rage when it happens.

I especially like the way you've pointed out that this kind of engagement is productive, but not necessarily productive for you or for the person you are engaging with. Many times it's the audience that benefits, not you or your "conversation" partner. I find so many people focus on the two people in the conversation, and the success or failure of their arguments in convincing the other person, and so see discussion as pointless unless it resolves to victory or defeat, but that's just not true. Public conversation has an effect, sometimes a profound effect, on the people listening. I've had people have the "last word" with me, and then found later that they continued to think about the conversation, and saw through (or into) some of the patterns that they were so insistent on during the conversation, while the attitude of the "audience" may have been swayed silently, and not in the direction of the strongest words.

Like I said, I can't always manage this, but it's worth reaching for. Ripples.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. There are varying degrees of personal difficulty involved in spirituality.

I have had no choice but to discuss what I know and have known about the shifting energies and their meaning and application. Unsurprisingly, some of my old associates and friends have gone their own way over this. Being an empath doesn't help this dynamic, but it is in itself a lesson as you have described, to do an al-anon and just take care of yourself and your own feelings, to nurture your relationship with yourself in the face of negation.

For me it gets worse as through previous intense action and great amounts of abuse, I have developed a "fan club" who seek to interrupt me at various levels. They project their own suffering upon me (like attracts like, the law of syntony) and now that I have revealed spiritual meaning in my life, are worse as they find reasons to fear it. Of course, anyone with psychic ability would use it to get to the vulnerable bits of anyone they disliked, and HARM THEM. I know their fear, and any request on my part to simply be left alone, is always taken as a threat of some sort, and meets with hatred, fear, and further abuse. As does any amount of being nice. It is difficult (and by that a lesson in itself) to deal with this at all, much less to see it clearly and to feel it clearly. It is a cause for compassion, as you have stated; it is very difficult. I have been told to my face that it is intended that I be (AGAIN) be malfeased into a psych ward. To my face. I have to live with and around these sorts of people who need to toss their suffering onto someone else, anyone else, who is convenient (or similar to those under whome they've suffered). And those who outright test...who would cause harm given the simple opportunity, who want to find any boundaries to my ability, that they may get away with tossing crap (which simply means that they have issues upon which to work, but don't). They utterly do not understand the dynamic of politeness and grace involved in these sorts of things. There is only the hope that as the positive energy increases, they can come to inclusion, compassion, forgiveness, co-operation, and indeed, politeness. That causing harm only increases the harm in the world, that that quite indeed, there is already enough.

It is a lesson in itself to continue to work to bring the higher principles to situations such as this, in the face of their not even being detected, without the hope of any positive change as a result, but to simply do the right thing, regardless. To build those muscles. I want peace and will continue working toward it regardless of the actions of others. I suppose that's the lesson as you are stating it.

And no, I'm of course no "angel" without blame; I simply have no clear current path to solve what's in front of me, aside from attempting to build the muscles of any sort of a "higher path". I don't know.

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. And no, it's not like "The Mentalist".

...

I'll continue to ignore the rudeness and positive opportunities for all, will continue to be lost. :shrug:

[BanzaiBonnie]

9. I admire your determination

You continue despite obstacles, to do what you know to be right. Thank you for devoting your full strength and concentrated attention.


Peace and light,
BB

[OneGrassRoot]

10. +1000

I agree, Bonnie.

Hugs of support sent your way, FWWM

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