About KNOWING

[OneGrassRoot]

I've been pondering something for a few days, especially given discussions here at DU, and in ASAH.

There are some individuals who KNOW things, seemingly beyond a shadow of a doubt. Whether it's a scientific matter, a political matter, or an interpersonal matter, they say they KNOW things. It's fact, it's truth to them.

Thus, anyone who disagrees with that truth is basically silly or, worse, a complete idiot. If disagreeing with that truth is viewed as potentially harmful to others -- say in the vaccination debate -- the disagreements escalate.

In a way I envy people who know things and have no doubt. Life is pretty much all gray to me. I can usually see many sides to an issue so to say I KNOW anything, beyond any shadow of a doubt, is very, very rare. Beyond my love for my daughter and pets, I honestly don't know what else I am completely certain of, without any hesitation or doubt.

Because that is MY personality type, while I envy the KNOWERS in a way, I also don't buy into what they're saying. I mean, I believe they believe in THEIR truth -- I don't think they're lying in most cases -- but it's simply that their truth isn't necessarily everyone else's truth.

It's why most of us take all these channelings and any other writing with a grain of salt. We recognize it as that person's truth (with a healthy skepticism that there may be an agenda at play as well), but it isn't necessarily our truth. Yet what they write -- what ANYONE writes or says, for that matter -- could help us clarify our truth. That's why I read and listen and pay attention...to help clarify -- or simply find -- my own particular truth and how I see the world and walk through it.

One thing I feel fairly confident about: perceptions and perspectives. What is fact to one person is just that because of their particular life perspective and how they perceive things; the same fact just isn't truth to another. Basically, I don't feel anyone KNOWS anything beyond a shadow of a doubt...we all have our personal truths and do the best we can. That becomes challenging when we desperately want others to believe our truth because we care for them and don't want them to be "fooled" by what they believe to be true.

I have to say, in watching this play out here in the last few weeks, I'm actually embarrassed by how I treated a family member months ago. She is a Rush Limbaugh right-winger, wants Palin to be president, believes in The Rapture.

I thought she was an idiot. In fact, I called her a "fucking idiot." But you know what? While I loathe much of what she believes in and stands for, I don't KNOW anything. I don't know that the Rapture isn't how things are really going to play out. I surely don't believe it is, but I can't say I KNOW it's not true.

How are we ever going to reach the point of creating a more compassionate, respectful world when we view everyone else as idiots if they don't see the world as we do? Granted, I am fearful of people who believe that way, as their truths conflict with mine and infringe upon them. That's when the "live and let live" way of being is challenged.

I don't have the answers. I'm trying to understand how to DO this better, so I can get through my 3D world daily life without being angry about or afraid of others' truths or defending mine because someone fears what I perceive as my truth.

Some here seem to be in the knowing camp. Since discourse about things we disagree about is usually much, much easier here than elsewhere, I would really appreciate your thoughts about this subject. Do you:

1. View some things as universal truths and thus fact and feel comfortable relaying that to others as a fact -- and get upset if they don't agree because you feel their views are potentially harmful to you and those you love?

2. #1 yet you don't get upset as you can detach from others' decisions and choices?

3. View each "truth" as a personal thing, believing we're all creating our own reality and the whole thing is a big illusion and game anyway. You share how you see/feel things and that's that. ;)


All thoughts to help enlighten me are most welcome, including if you think I'm an idiot for seeing life issues as mostly gray. :)

:grouphug:


edited for typos

[mysticalchick]

1. Deep thoughts, OGR

... really deep. And I think pondering things like this helps us grow in our own truth. I am also one who hangs in the gray. There are very few (if any) things I am black or white about. And I agree that all we can know is what is true for us. And what pings me the most is when others feel their way is THE way. That's when I get all churned up inside because it feels to me that are so many paths for our souls to take for growth. Who is that person to say their way is the one right way for everyone?

Boiling it down to your choices, I'd have to go with #2 - there are (I feel) some Universal truths but it's not my work to be the judge and arbiter of those for all. I can only do it for myself. If someone wants to know about the path I've chosen and they ask me, I'll gladly share but I also recognize that it may not resonate with them. Doesn't mean I'm wrong to follow it or they're wrong for following a different one. I share what I know to be true in my life and allow them the space to make that determination for themselves (i.e.: detach with love). Sounds easy but it's really not (am flanked on two sides by evangelicals who think I am pretty much the devil in disguise (which hurt me the first time I found out they both felt that way, I admit)).

Anyway, lots to think about and I really do appreciate your post. It's a good one to chew on and I look forward to other responses.

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Detach with love...

That's a tough one for me, though I am getting better at it. ;)

Flanked by evangelicals? Bless you...

:hug:

[Celebration]

2. I'm mostly gray

About the only thing that I "know" is the universal power of love. Why it seems so difficult at times is a mystery. But, without any grayness I believe that 1. we are all connected, and 2. the lesson of our existence is to try to learn how to love unconditionally.

As for channeling, I'm skeptical but willing to listen.

A lot of deflecting anger has to do with keeping a very strong aura. Definitely there are techniques to use for that.

I respect other people's "truths" but I don't mind disagreeing at times, with respect.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. To me, respect is everything...

It really is. If one is genuinely respectful, disagreements are fine...I welcome other viewpoints.

:hug:

[get the red out]

3. I am both dark and light on the subject

I do believe one thing to be absolute truth, that the human mind is a very physical machine and great truths coming into it from dimensions it cannot operate in can be both beautifully received and completely mangled. Looking at things this way gives me the freedom to trust my gut one small bit of information at a time.

I battle my fear of religious extremism constantly though, and speak up against it, because I do worry about their "truths" being fuel for them to try to eliminate the rights, and even lives, of others around the world who they view as "the other". I just can't accept when religion denies people rights either, any religion and especially the rights of women and children who often have no choices due to extremist religion. These things I will always speak against because I view them as a darkness threatening to drown out human rights. I don't know what is true but I do feel that the world religious extremists want is evil and I need to speak against it and I always will until I can no longer speak at all. Though I attempt to not cause harm, discomfort I am sure, but not harm, in speaking out.

That being said I can see what is untrue easier than what is true. If a path goes against the human rights of others for me that is wrong and the results are a risky thing to push on society. When it comes to personal truths, I really like to approach that as "no harm no foul". Do no harm, if your truths do no harm to others that are either powerless or simply disagree, good for you, you are ok by me!

When I read various takes on the "truth" I like the freedom to personally sort out what resonates for me. I do this with some of the recognized spiritual paths, and I also do this with things I read all over the place. When I disagree I can move on to something else. Some of the serious problems I have with certain paths I am more than fairly certain have to do with past life issues (had that confirmed by a very good psychic also). I deal with this using prayer and meditation the best I can.

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Our fears are similar...

being surrounded by right-wingers and experiencing how they want to limit our freedoms and those of others.

Good point about seeing what is untrue being easier than seeing what's true. :)

And I'm with you on the "do no harm" approach, yet I do realize that can be subjective...gets into that darn gray area for me.

Gray, gray, gray...lolol

:hug:

[bigmonkey]

4. I have always wanted the search for truth to be an archaeological dig, rather than a fistfight.

I agree with Ken Wilber's perspective that there must be some way in which everybody who's thinking clearly is right. Put another way, kind of like what the Dalai Lama has said (I hope I've got this correct): "What the religions refer to is in common." I think the truth is somewhere between entirely self-created and externally objective.

On the other hand, I've never gotten over Bishop Berkeley's observation that all human perception occurs in the human mind. Or as Wilber says, the Earth, the Solar System, the Cosmos, all of these things are in consciousness.

I get too upset, probably, when I see anyone using language that assumes that their opponents have beliefs, whereas they have facts and reality. This is a huge social put-down masquerading as rational discussion, at least to me. I'm even so sensitive to it that I immediately suspect anything anyone says prefaced by the phrase "Let's face it, ..."

If the search for truth were an archaeological dig, then we'd all agree to build on each other's work, and not destroy the investigation simply to have our interpretation prevail. That's why it's the analogy I'd prefer to use.
I remember reading about the American founders' preoccupation with politeness, that it was a European fad at the time that they were heavily influenced by. While the manipulation of politesse can often serve the oppressor, infighting can also hamper any movement or, I'd say, any search for truth.

[OneGrassRoot]

9. I love your analogy!

:hi:

"If the search for truth were an archaeological dig, then we'd all agree to build on each other's work, and not destroy the investigation simply to have our interpretation prevail."

Yep, yep....so true.

And this is another brilliant line:

"While the manipulation of politesse can often serve the oppressor, infighting can also hamper any movement or, I'd say, any search for truth."

:hug:

[bigmonkey]

14. Thanks!

You're very kind.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. I seek truths, and most importantly, absolute truths.

There are truths, and there are absolute truths. I attempt to be empiric in my research, and throw out anything which does not work as advertised. I have made many terrible mistakes during this process, and have also seen hints of amazing things.

There are indeed, absolute truths. They are empiric, and are not the result of my desires or mindset. Especially since some require a spiritual path of living, ego reduction, and service. I'd just like to get mine and play around all day. To survive, I may not. This is the way of it. Others may arrive at this place in different times, through other means, or may be far beyond it.

I dislike absolutist statements as much as anyone else, yet often find myself making them, and fully understand the reactions they cause. I am open to new information, as I wish to come as close to the truth as is possible (at least in theory- it often forces me to be honest about things I do not wish to consider or to accept, about myself and others).

I'm willing to change my mind. I welcome new, better information. I'll change my position upon being corrected, and after confirming that the corrections are true. I don't claim to know what's best for everyone, except for everyone to be able to pursue their free will, whether or not it is good for them (and to fight that which harms others, intentionally or unintentionally). Free will gives you a right to harm others, and for others to respond as they wish. The overall of karma evens it all out, or you may do so through understanding it and adjusting your actions.

I have always known/felt that this world is nowhere near what is either possible or correct. The higher principles as stated in the Constitution and other Humane documents are not being enacted. A far better world is possible if they are enacted. All it takes is for us to get together and enact them. Sometimes placing ourselves at the front line in order to motivate others. During Reagan through Bush2, I began giving up the hope that the better world would occur. During Bush2, I did give up hope. A good view of the negative hierarchy can do that to you.

However.

Things were put in place so that we would not destroy ourselves/allow ourselves to be destroyed at this time/at this point. My faith is back. I was wrong. I did not perceive the greater will and actions which form the world and its path. When it changed, I felt it and mentioned it. This can easily be found in my Journal, I believe. Now, we are indeed upon a positive path plateau'ing in 2012. I have checked and re-checked and is it is currently, believe that this will occur. This is the direction the trend indicates. It may change. If it does, I will mention it. My research and doubt about this can easily be found in ASAH and my other posts. Now, I believe that we are on track.

I have proven on these pages that I am psychic, and energetically sensitive. You may wish to consider these truths, when considering my research results regarding the current state of things and its apparent destination. Also, I'm well aware that I'm not aware of everything. I am not enlightened. I am many times, wrong. Which is why in mentioning my findings, know that I have taken many efforts to confirm that which I present. I'm not interested in being wrong in public, or in presenting misleading information, intentionally or unintentionally. I'm attempting to be of service with what little I have to offer. PC provided perspective and truths which helped me to make it through those last months of BushCo (knowing what they were doing to the economy. No one would listen to me...). I now offer what small amount that I have of the larger picture, to increase faith through the facts as they stand and as I currently understand them, and through the revelation of the spiritual through such abilities in the first place.

I'm quite ready to be wrong, to be corrected, and to correct myself. I know little, but wish to share what little I do know (and have attempted to confirm). I do not know how it will all turn out, how it will all end, or even of what will occur during the process itself. I am possibly aware of things others might miss, so I present them. You can also pray for insight and perspective, and it will be granted.

As the wise man said, you can like it or you cannot like it.

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Thank you....

thank you, thank you! :hug:

I learned something at DU today. I've been here for years and never used the buddy list (sounded silly to me); but I just learned that if I make someone a "buddy," I automatically get their journal updates!

That's another thing: I've never really followed anyone's journal even though I've wondered how to do so.

So, I just made you my buddy, I'll get your journal updates, and I plan to read back through your previous entries. I know I've only scratched the surface of the insights you have to share by reading the random posts here at ASAH. I have a feeling your journal will be very enlightening indeed, and I thank you in advance.

More :hug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. Oh, definitely enlightening.

You'll enjoy the links to garfieldminusgarfield.net and to various youtube links, I'm sure. Enlightenment is now yours!

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Wheeeeeeeee .... .... .... .... ... ... ...

:bounce:

:fistbump:

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. Here!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9128156

Definitely enlightening.

And of course this.

http://2012basics.blogspot.com/2009/10/welcome-and-purpose-of-this-blog.html

[OneGrassRoot]

24. I'm reading now....

I especially love this:


"Living in joy sends out a great deal of positive energy, which benefits everything as it moves out from Earth across the Universe, and eventually bounces back. Your joy benefits all beings.

We now have much greater power (and thus responsibility) to create something positive for others who are still struggling. As we learn to live like that all of the time, we will become as the angels, who already do this for us, full-time. Thank you angels!"

O8)

:bounce:

:hug:

:grouphug:

[winyanstaz]

15. This is a very good post :)..thank you for opening this to discussion.

I tend to share and teach the same way it was given to me..in both the advanced yoga philosophies, the Native American teachings and the Druid lessons during my ten years with the Greenwood grove..as well as my totem teacher on the inner planes..(he is Bear that Stands like a Man and rather stern...if you don't shut up and pay attention..you will not get another chance to get his lessons)...which is rather direct and to the point and people are free to accept it or not. I am sure that sometimes makes me come off as too direct and dogmatic...However..truth be told...
It does not truly matter to me if people do or they don't.
What matters to me is I shared the information but what people do with it is their business.
They either will or they won't at that time. A lot of yoga teachings are given as "seeds" which will take root at a later time and so that too is all good.
I do not mind criticism but if I feel too attacked...I will stand my ground and kiss ass right back. There is a steel fist underneath my velvet gloves and I am still working on my temper and I admit that. :)
...but if I am wrong I hope and pray I will be strong enough to admit it and yes sometimes I fall down.
I like passionate discussions and differences of opinion as often I learn something and that is all good.
In my own beliefs and opinions on truth etc I believe that we each create our own reality. Based on our own experiences and level of consciousness and our place on the Medicine Wheel.
This comes from my Native American beliefs.
It doesn't mean someone else is wrong or that they are evil etc..or that they have no ears to hear at that time..it simply means that is where they are and I am where I am and we are each seeing from our own perspective and like all things on this plane..that too will change for all of us in this marvelous and magical journey home as we move around the wheel.
However there is also another kind of "Knowing." and that is the "Knowing" and the "Seeing" that comes with the opening of the two highest chakras.
It is totally different than having an opinion and once it is experienced you will have faith in it as it comes directly from your own highest self. There is no mistaking it so don't worry about it.
There is simply no doubt when Spirit speaks or when you have a real vision or lucid dream visions that what is happening to you is from God/Goddess.
They are far beyond ordinary dreams or thoughts and when it happens to you then you will "Know" and every cell of your body will "Know"..if you don't already. :)
No one really needs a teacher. All a true teacher does is point and say.."when you get to this place..this is what you will find." If they are any good their students will fly higher and further and faster then the teacher anyways.
All we really need is to look within our own self and ask. Everything will come to you at the right time for you.
The trick is to recognize that everyone and everything is also a teacher and to know a true teacher when it is time that one comes into our reality.
Peace to you and yours.........

[winyanstaz]

16. See> ? yes I do fall down :P...but I refuze to be pised off

beecuse I speeled kiss insted of kick :P hahahaa
That lousy spel chekar shoold have caut that I ment to say som thin elze !!! :P

[OneGrassRoot]

18. LOL!

I didn't even catch that! My brain interpreted it the way you intended. ;)

You and FWWM have especially helped me with this issue, as you are two of the ones I consider "knowers."

Previously in reading some of your posts I've thought, "Why/how the heck are they so sure of what they speak? They don't KNOW for sure."

But this thread has helped me perceive things in a new light, which is exactly why I started it. ;)

You wrote:

"...which is rather direct and to the point and people are free to accept it or not. I am sure that sometimes makes me come off as too direct and dogmatic...However..truth be told...It does not truly matter to me if people do or they don't."


I can now totally differentiate between those I lovingly refer to as Knowers -- ;) -- and those who preach and try to cram things down someone's throat.

And it comes back to a very basic life philosophy I'm TRYING to live by: Live by love, not fear.

Preachers (I have evangelical preachers in mind as I type this) sure seem to KNOW things, usually things others don't "know," and try to cram that down others' throats because they fear these people won't be saved. Of course, I actually believe it's a power trip, not out of genuine concern. But I digress...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to compare anyone here -- nor most I've encountered in the spiritual community -- with evangelicals. Not at all.

But the knowingness is what made me think of evangelicals.

Yet there is a HUGE difference there. They are coming from a place of fear. Most of you Knowers are very much coming from a place of love, for oneself and others, and thus you can simply allow. You share and allow. It's your truth, there's no need to push it on others.

As someone wrote above, allow and detach.

It may seem silly to some, but this was a shift for me in reading this thread today and helps me relax more in reading others' sharings about knowing this and that.

Also, I do think basic personality types ~ our human-ness ~ play in to how we convey ourselves in this regard, too, and how comfortable we are knowing and expressing and allowing and blah, blah, blah.

Hugs all around!

Thanks to you all. :)

:grouphug:

[southerncrone]

17. There is "knowing" & then there is KNOWING.

These 2 are very different.
One is a belief based on what another person has told you is true (Churches, authority figures, etc.) This in not really knowing; it is being deceived, or sold, or brainwashed. Sadly, much of our "knowledge" falls under this umbrella.

The other KNOWING comes from deep within yourself. This is TRUE KNOWING. It's as if it springs from deep within your being or soul. You can't really explain why or how you KNOW this, but you firmly do.
This KNOWING will validate itself in reality, & sometimes this takes time. Until this happens, however, you will still know it in your heart-of-hearts.

When the "channelers" say "anyone can do this too, I believe the second KNOWING is what they are referring to.

Great thread, OGR! Threads like THIS is what ASAH should be about!
:grouphug:

[OneGrassRoot]

19. At another board where I've interacted for about a decade....

with the same core group of individuals, one of the gentlemen differentiates the two, similar to what you have shared here, with the words "knowing" and "gnowing."

Gnowing coming from that soul-level, unity awareness versus an ego-borne intellectual knowledge.

He drove people crazy with his "gnowing," but I always liked it. It makes the point, IMHO.

I may start using "gnowing" here in conveying this thought.

:)

:hug:

[southerncrone]

21. Yes, GNOWING is a good word for it.

Thanks for sharing his idea.

[get the red out]

20. +1

I've touched that knowing for the briefest instants in dreams or meditation and it is "wow....."; very quick for me and not easily put into words. This is virtually the opposite of the "brain washing" crammed at us for control purposes on this Earth plane.

[JanusAscending]

29. AGREED !!!!

I would only need my ten fingers to count the times that I have KNOWN something. It really didn't have any meaning to anyone but myself and my immediate family, but every time I knew I KNEW, it became truth. I didn't care who believed or didn't. By trusting my KNOWING I learned to trust myself as well as that "inner voice" that shared the knowledge with me. I have now come to believe that that "inner voice" is more vast and UNIVERSAL in scope. I am glad that if this is a gift, it's the one I was given, and am always listening for new "knowledge"!! LUV YA ALL!!!

[NuttyFluffers]

22. viva la existential crises! you are lost amid personal truth, collective truth, and The TRUTH (tm)

first off, before we get lost, The TRUTH (tm) is that transcendent singularity of all existence in eternity, blah blah blah. it's essentially ineffable, inexplainable, and hopelessly irreducible. none of us will ever be able to "own" it, "claim" it, or "know" it. it is the "beyond the beyond" type stuff.

k, i come from a Humanities major and we LOVE these discussions. we have to dabble in every discipline, culture, view point, aesthetic, etc. we can find and then create new and more enthralling narratives to explore, compile, and regale others with. we live for this stuff.

you are coming to the correct conclusion that Personal Truths are very real and valid. you are also coming to the conclusion that Collective Truths are also very real and valid. and now you are having the problem that both concepts conflict with the notion that you have likely been conditioned to believe from most of your life training that there is "ONE INDIVISIBLE TRUTH".

well, there is that too. but as stated above, you, i, and everyone else will never really "get there" for the 'great big kahuna' as it were.

what you will find is that the correct answer to "which one?" is "yes, both of them!"

the truth is as relevant and as necessary as to the needs it serves. it does not mean a 'lie.' it just means that according to the perceptions and understandings of XYZ, be it individual being or shared discipline "knowledge," certain things will be "true" while others corrupting or denying otherwise will be "false."

for example, (assuming all examples come from Contemporary Western Civilization) Law as a discipline will have its own truth of what defines a human being, and what defines an adult human being. Biology on the other hand will have another criteria. Psychology will again have another. Art with a Realism bias another. there's 4 examples above, 2 from the "hard sciences" and 2 from the "arts" and all have valid conceptions defining the question "what is a human being, and what is an adult human being." which one's right? which one's wrong? what a silly question to ask! they are all "right"... for their own realms.

this same structured viewpoint also applies to individuals, just as the collectives. so a human being may find their own world view, morals, aesthetics, and philosophy in total disagreement with one of the stated collective truths within a specific discipline above. and they are just as right for themselves, in their own personal organization, about their answer differing from the collective as the collectives are in differing among each other.

now, the thing is, a personal 'truth' does not override collective 'truths' by fiat. neither does a collective 'truth' overrule other collective 'truths' by fiat. so all truths do not overrule each other -- it is only when we collectively choose to "dialogue" with others do we attempt consensus. sometimes it will not happen, ever. they may be too diametrically opposed, or too destructive for another to survive.

but there is one thing for certain. we all KNOW something. we at least know our personal truths, first off. and second, we are all trained in a variety of collective truths. our collective truths are often primarily cultural in orientation. and we often end up specializing in certain disciplinary truths as well. however, because we are individuals, we end up tailoring our received truths to accord with our personalities and our experience -- the result being a whole delightful (and potentially confusing) array of truths sounding off each other. it's like a cave of all different species of bats sounding off an apple (the subject) from different angles and then trying to relate the experience to the others...

it's a wonderful cacophony that, since it continues to function well enough without collapse, ends up being a symphony!
:loveya:

hope that makes you feel better!

[OneGrassRoot]

23. Yowza!!!

:hi:

Glad you are the type to live for these types of discussions. :)

At first I thought I would need more coffee (or perhaps wait a bit and have wine?) to grasp what you were sharing, but it's cool. I absorbed just fine; actually, with incredible clarity. ;)


You wrote:

"...they may be too diametrically opposed, or too destructive for another to survive."

I think that's the type of situation that brings me to ponder these thoughts, specifically as it pertains to fundamentalist religions. Other differences of opinion and/or perspective are fascinating; some differences are indeed potentially destructive and I wonder how to function without collapse.

I love the cacophony/symphony reference. :applause:

Thanks, NuttyFluffers. Your name alone makes me smile. :)

:hug:

[Callie McAllie]

25. I kind of want to avoid this discussion altogether

ASAH has always seemed to me to be a forum where people are much more understanding and respectful than those in other forums, and for that reason I keep coming here. I haven't run across too many people here who are so completely certain that their truth is "the" truth, or that it's anything to impose on others.

I wish we'd just get away from this insistance on who's right and who's wrong. It's not healthy.

[OneGrassRoot]

26. I most certainly agree with that....

"I wish we'd just get away from this insistance on who's right and who's wrong. It's not healthy."

I wish we could, too. And I posed the question here for the very reason that, as a group, we are more understanding and respectful. The responses have helped me gain some perspective about this subject.

:hug:

[Why Syzygy]

27. But

aren't you insisting that you are right about the way ASAH 'should' be? That that is the "truth" of the matter? Just saying.

If we are to express ourselves at all, there is bound to be a disagreement now and then. If all is limited to fluffy feelings I won't find it very interesting.

[bigmonkey]

28. In a rational-level discussion, seems to me ...

In a context of a rational discussion, facts have primacy (so does "the truth") as a basis for the discussion at hand. Everyone must admit to things that are facts, that's one of the rules of rational discussion. The late Daniel Moynihan's comment, recently repeated by Sen. Franken, that "We're all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts." refers to that directly. That is to say, anything un-factual (or untrue) is, in that context of rational discussion, faulty or defective as something everyone must admit to.

As a result, when you talk about something at a rational level, it's important to be able to distinguish facts from non-facts - that is, to distinguish the special class of facts (things that everyone in the discussion must admit as true) from any interpretations, theories, speculations, moral judgments, about that special class of things, as well as distinguishing them from things that are false.

Unfortunately, and as a result, one powerful rhetorical move is to demote your opponent's facts from having that factual status. If you can prove that the opponent's calculation is faulty (to use a really clear instance) then his or her calculated result is no longer admissible as a fact.

The problem is that this move can be abused. (Like what can't?) Characterizing what you see as true as "the truth", or positively characterizing what others see as true as "belief", tends to imply that you have the facts, and as a result your opponent doesn't. That is to say, the opponent's argument, in that rational-level discussion, is implied to be basically faulty, inadmissible. I think this is often interpreted as argumentative behavior per se; I react to it that way, although I see that not everybody sees it that way. But I think you can make a good case that it is inherently argumentative.

I wrote about a positive value of politeness earlier, and I think it applies here. (I should reiterate that politeness can be the tool of the oppressor also, I recognize that.) It's impolite, in my estimation, to imply (or state!) that your own interpretation is factual and your opponent's un-factual, but it also has the negative effect of confusing the level of interpretation, theory, etc. with the factual level. It makes it hard, in that way, for rational discussion to proceed, because the needed foundation of a mutually-acceptable factual basis for discussion is contended. So, at least in this arena, it seems to me that being polite and promoting productive discussion are in line.

I'm not sure I'm being clear. I like to think about philosophical problems, but my philosophical vocabulary is not very precise or extensive. I think it's unlikely, though, that I'm causing any harm by saying what I've said here - so much the better if it does anybody any good.

[Myrina]

30. #2 - and I pretty much live in a mental/emotional bubble.

I'm not going to try to convince others that what I "know" is "right" and what they "know" isn't ... I just let them believe as long as it doesn't negatively affect my path.

I must say, I have been - and am - validated countless times by The Universe over the years about small things, so that has probably helped me to just 'trust my bubble' & let others believe as they may.



:hi: