About the deaths in Sedona at Angel Valley.....

[Desertrose]

I didn't want to kick up the thread in GD, but I live in Sedona and wanted to share from that perspective.

The sad story is that two people lost their lives in a sweat lodge outside of town Thurday nite.

The people who own Angel Valley are not originally from Sedona....neither is James Ray who rented the facility for his "Spiritual Warrior teachings". These are the people who give this town such a bad name...people who come here with the express purpose of making money from vulnerable and searching souls and using Sedona to do it. Ray is nothing more than a con-man convincing gullible people he can "share" teachings for the sweet deal of $9000+.(Yes, you read that right.)

After reading the waivers that both Angel Valley put out and James Ray put out that people have to sign, they clearly tried to make sure they had their asses covered. I have no idea how binding all that is.

As to a sweat with 50+ people for over 2 hours? That is just so wrong on so many levels. It is totally abusing the trust of those they purport to be helping and using something to be used in a sacred way for profit.

I could go on & on here but it comes down to the fact that it is the people who don't live here but simply come to take advantage of the Sedona name who cause the bad reputation & problems. The people who live here end up dealing with and transmuting all the garbage & crap people leave here - intentionally and unintentionally. We do it because we love the land. It is sacred and the longer I live here, the more I learn and am grateful.

Sedona takes care of her own. Those who come for greed or power will get their butts kicked. I've seen it over & over and unfortunately this time there was loss of life. I would not want their karma. Anyone who is truly on a spiritual path knows better than to sell what they are selling for money.


The people who really live in this town are very saddened by the unnecessary deaths and all the negative press about a very special place we call home.

Blessings,
DR

edit:various typos

[Fire Walk With Me]

1. I am really sorry to learn of this. There are indeed far too many problems in the

new to America field of spirituality...I hope that it will help save many from making this or even worse mistakes in the future.

[Desertrose]

10. I feel that this will be a big wakeup call to many.....

at least I hope it will.

[MorningGlow]

2. Thank you for sharing an "insider's perspective", DR

I've heard so many wonderful things about Sedona from friends who have visited; it sounds like a lovely place. I hope to get there someday. Unfortunately, as with any special place, it not only draws sincere people but also opportunists--I witnessed that even in the off season in Glastonbury many years ago.

More than 50 people in a sweat?! That's insane. As is the money this man is charging. I hope these people's deaths were not in vain; instead, may this be a lesson for con-men like Ray and (unfortunately this is also necessary) gullible people who would buy his kind of snake oil.

I do worry about this being an instance of con-men giving all New Agers a bad name. There was a lot of shit flying in that trainwreck of a thread, painting all New Agers with a broad "idiot" brush. Really got me upset, as the people saying so have no idea what they're talking about. :grr: Anyone worth their weight in crystals (snarf) knows better than to fork over thousands of dollars for a spiritual experience.

Sending light for the safe passage of these souls and light to their loved ones for comfort.

[Desertrose]

11. It sure was a trainwreck, wasn't it?

I get so sick of people bashing this town when they don't have a clue other than what the latest headlines or their own preconceived ideas tell them.

ARGHHHH!


Yeha, supposedly the sweat was not very high and was covered with plastic....not a breathable lodge...too low..too many people and 2 hours? Are they crazy or stupid ....or both. Makes me wonder.

Turns out the deaths were a 38 yo woman in good shape and a 40 yo father of 3. This just sucks as this shouldn't have happened.

[Why Syzygy]

3. We are all enlightened beings.

I can't prove that statement or even tender an argument to justify it. My proof is only that those I hear teaching this perspective sound honest and true. The faux 'new age' doesn't share that message. The promise of contentment is for sale. These folks believed they needed a 9K steam bath to reach that state. It's a human tendency to pursue bliss at almost any cost; especially when someone is seeking a priceless treasure. Many are brainwashed and not entirely in control of themselves.

It looks like a good thread. I have most of the snark ignored and see a few friendly, familiar names.

Thank you for telling us your perspective. In these times when we are going through the un-veiling, I want to remember, ALL things are revealed. We want it for everyone else so we will know the truth. The power making that possible is right here with me.

[Desertrose]

12. I agree we are all enlightened beings....

It's just that sometimes the enlightenment is still buried under all the crap we've been told & taught since birth. Enlightenment comes more from the inside than somewhere out there, but it can take time to figure it out, especially when there are those who are willing to "sell" it for a price. Unfortunately we have been taught to think that someone else ( be it a god or a guru) knows better than we do what is right for us.

[get the red out]

4. There are always con men, goes without saying

I would LOVE to visit Sedona, just to see it and sit peacefully for a time in it's beautiful landscape. I hope I get the opportunity at some point.

Like everyone else has said, when someone offers enlightenment or spirituality at a price, it just can't be anything but a con, for one thing that's too much like the religions we already have! ;) Which, of course, have cost more lives in vain than any new-age-pretending con man could every strive to match.

I hope this guy becomes the focus, rather than your city.

[Desertrose]

13. And for every con man there is a willing.......

I hate to say sucker but there is someone ready to accept what s/he says as truth. Makes me sad there are so many vulnerable people being taken advantage of because they seek more.

I hope you can visit Sedona, too. I came here many years ago as a newly divorced mom with a teenage son and young daughter. Being an artist, I came for the art galleries, inspiration & sacred beauty of the land. Hasn't been easy, but I've never ever regretted it.

[Matariki]

29. Or as the great Firesign Theater used to say - There's a Seeker Born Every Minute

;-)

[rumpel]

5. wow. that whole website is about "wealth" not healing or spiritual

there are unfortunately quite a few, whose energies are not where they claim them to be...

:(

[Desertrose]

14. I know....and I hate that they promote

all this healing and spiritual stuff when it clearly is about their own wealth & abundance...especially at $9k a pop.

(If this guy had 50 people @9k that comes to $450,000...and how many of these weeks does he do a year?? ...and how many years??)

Again..when you are not in your integrity.....:(

[lildreamer316]

6. Update: Ray has refused to talk & left the state. I think this is just another 'unveiling of truth'

I hate that people had to/chose to move on from this life to make this come home; but I feel that this event falls into the category we have all been discussing - that of the truth of things coming to light no matter what. It seems that the light will not tolerate any deception and darkness; no matter where it originates from. We would all do well to take notice.

Here's the thread..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6747454

"Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday his detectives are focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state. No charges have been filed."

[Desertrose]

8. Thanks for this update lildreamer.

I agree...the truth of people who are STS (service to self)has to and is coming out. I guess I am impatient with this process and I realize it is going to be painful for many. You are absolutely right when you said that the light will not tolerate any deception and darkness; no matter where it originates from.

No one is going to be able to continue to use sacred ceremonies and teachings for personal gain. This guy has evidently gotten by for awhile doing this stuff and now it's his turn to learn. Hopefully he will and hopefully others will learn too. I am so sorry those two had to give their lives for this lesson but there are no accidents, truly.

I no longer have any sympathy for people who use others for their gain.

[BlueIris]

7. Tragedy. Law enforcement may not be able to punish those responsible,

but karma will. Not gonna be pretty.

[Desertrose]

9. I wouldn't want their karma.

If they are as "spiritual" as they claim...they should know better.

[stellanoir]

15. Hey DR

So sorry your town has had to contend with such chicanery.

Long ago, I visited that place and marveled over its beauty, majesty, and sacredness.

It's truly astonishing.

Just stopped and wandered around a bit.

Then realized I had access to my own personal friendly neighborhood powerspot.

I invite people to go there but always just one or two and sometimes their kids and never ever even dream of doing so for a fee.

These places are indeed sacred and should never be exploited.

It's really about one's individual relationship with Gaia.

Then again, I'm probably a bit hyper sensitive. I couldn't even go to freebie healing circles eons ago without saying to my then partner, "why do I suddenly want to go to a biker bar?" I never had that urge before. Yikes

That's the kind of stuff I pick up on in random groups.

Since then I've kept my spiritual quests to myself or just with a few treasured friends and the glorious powers that be.

There are very simply, charlatans in all fields. I say that to lawyers, and "big" business people all the time.

The desecration of so many places on this planet pains me on a regular basis.

Then again, I trust Gaia to never take on more than she can handle.

9 grand. . .sheesh. . . That's just crazy to spend for something that is really ultimately free, free, free.

DR I'm sending L & L to you and your community, and an energetic fax to Gaia, pronto.

No paper will be wasted in this process. :)

I wish those deaths could have been avoided. May they have a truly graceful transition.

best as always to you and all of ours.

:grouphug:

[Desertrose]

16. Aww...thanks Stella

This crap is certainly not new, but it never cost lives before. I am just tired of lies and bullshit and greedy people who pretend they aren't. (Think the last 8 years might have had something to do with it?)But there is always a higher purpose so I am hoping this will wake some people up.

Maybe the lesson here is NEVER. give. your. POWER. away. to. ANYONE.



Yeah...took me a long time to get used to the energies here. Like you I'd pick up some of the strangest things.(Aw hell,still do. LOL)

I live right next to Thunder MT (aka Capital Butte) so I get some interesting things bouncing off all those rocks.

I am very saddened by all the commercialization here....like everybody wants to either own or sell a chunk of this place. But hey,that's a whole 'nother rant and its past my bedtime...the coyotes are singing my bedtime song as I type this.

Thanks for your (& everyone's) kind thoughts and loving energies for Sedona. It is graciously accepted and greatly appreciated. :)

:hug::loveya:
DR

PS Did you ever get one of my decks? PM me if you're interested. :)

[stellanoir]

17. Awww. . .thanks DR . . .but I one upped ya on one "W" . . .how scary is that. . .?

Yet I do disagree with you in the fine point that spiritual and religious persecution and murder has not been persistent through most of our recorded history.

Taking merciless advantage of supplicants has been the oldest of scams. . .ie. . ."ya wantta go to heaven. . .then gimmee 50 bucks." Just like this current insurance scam, it's all fear based.

Still I'm just a deluded Lemeurian who remembers all too well, when it simply didn't happen that way.

I saw a video last night that had an overshot of Manhattan. I was mortified that I was reminded that I indulged in such extreme idiocy to have procreated with a guy who was directly descended from the guy who brokered the ultimate initial national scam on the natives. He got the whole island for some beads and wampum.

Don't get me wrong. I adore my child. .

When he was much younger, he thought perhaps that he could repo Manhattan with even more beads and wampum. Yikes again. I simply said, pull-ease don't draw from that gene pool. Ownership of that which is Gaia's is a total abomination

I know it's all relative. I grew up in a bucolic pastoral place that has seen very little development until very recent years, when McMansions have seemingly arisen out of nowhere.

Thankfully, we have two acre zoning and strict regulations on commercial development. Still, when I look at my folks, who are struggling on their farm to make it still, in their early 80's, I'm given great pause.

Yet, I used to live in L.A. and had the strange experience of meeting all sorts of native Los Angelenos. They were older than me and used to speak of growing up surrounded by bean fields and orange groves. One of them used to complain every time a new strip mall would arise, with its requisite Chinese restaurant, dry cleaners, and convenience Mart.

I used to mock him by saying, "But. . .but. . .but. . . it's *progress*." He knew I was being facetious but at least I got him to laugh.

Just rest assured that they aren't going to get away with this baloney forever.

Their long term empire is crumbling.

So says Gaia and I'm silly enough to believe her.

So be it.

Not to minimize at all, the deaths you're grieving.

Rest assured that they did not die in vain, just suckerdom which is totally forgivable, or so says the cosmic parole board.

[Desertrose]

19. Actually, I meant no deaths from deliberate scams here in Sedona....

at least as far as I am aware.Nothing with this amount of notoriety anyhow.

As far as scams and religious persecution...whether on the giving or receiving end...that is as old as the hills - well, almost ;) and I don't even want to think of the number of deaths resulting...in the millions, hundreds of millions, at the very least.Somehow losing the material goods isn't quite as permanent a lesson but still a very hard one for many.

Maybe not suckerdom as much as volunteering to go to help bring some of this bullshit into the light. Who knows....but of course it is their karmic stuff to work out.

You know, I don't think I'm "grieving" these deaths as much as I'm just plain sad and just plain fed up with the greedy & powerful using the vulnerable and needy...but I know the wheel is turning. I do know that...but hey, I'm an Aries and just a bit (ok a LOT) impatient for people to wake up...and yes, I know, everyone has their own path etc etc. But it doesn't have to be and isn't supposed to be this way on good ol Gaia. Guess I'm getting more impatient in my old age. :evilgrin: ...and yeah, the memories of what was and what will be makes it hard sometimes to just "do the now".


:loveya:
DR

[stellanoir]

27. Oh DR

I meant to respond earlier, but RL intervened.

When I first saw your reponse, I immedietely flashed on the Apache Tears story.

http://www.worldssmallestmuseum.com/apachetearshdq.htm

I first did a search for to determine the relative proximity of that locale to Sedona.

To no avail.

Am sending you an etheric obsidian to help you figure it out.

:hug:

Didn't really think you were grieving, just more stunned and bothered like the rest of us collectively are.

Luv you sis and that you care so much,

I know it's hard sometimes in the face of all sorts of BS but at least we have each other.

best,

Princess Half Moon :)

[lildreamer316]

18. More information: the 'lodge' was apparently covered in plastic and blankets.

<snip>

"Similar to a sauna, a sweat lodge, is an enclosed space where water is poured on heated rocks to cleanse the body. Used in Native American ceremonies the traditional lodges are made of willow branches and covered in canvas or animal skins. They are not meant to be air-tight and participants normally spend less than an hour inside.

However, authorities told the New York Times the James Ray's sweat lodge was covered in plastic and blankets. It is believed temperatures inside the lodge reached up to 49 degrees.

In a testimonial on the Angel Valley retreat's website, Ray said it "offers an ideal environment for my teachings".

Joseph Bruchac, an expert on Native American traditions and author of The Native American Sweat Lodge, told the New York Times the number of participants at the James Ray sweat lodge far surpassed the 8 to 12 typically present in a rite.

“It means that all these people are fighting for the same oxygen,” Mr. Bruchac said. "

<snip> more at link...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26194358-401,00.html

Not trying to up the negativity; just wanted to add the info.
Peace to all...

[Desertrose]

20. I saw photos...and yeah

that was the first thing I said. It's a freaking plastic lodge. Lodges have to breathe - as do the participants. Very sad and very unnecessary.

Ray & his *facilitators* should have known better and the owners of Angel Valley should have been checking to make sure that lodge was properly built. Anyone who looked at its construction would instantly know it was basically a death trap. Too big to move the people in & out for short rounds so they kept them in & only opened the flap...to bring in MORE stones? Are they crazy?

Bruchac makes a good point about the O2 levels...plus it was a very low lodge- only 53" high. - which would be OK for a much much smaller lodge.

Its just sad that someone's greed and power over others cost lives...but this is not a new story, is it. *sigh*

Thanks for the update, lildreamer. :hug:

[Cleita]

21. It's terrible thing that happened and I know how you feel about

people from the outside who give your place a bad name. As a Californian I'm up against that every time I travel out of state. I have to explain to them that California is a magnet for both the good and bad people from all over the world and the bad get the most publicity. Now, as a native of Sedona, maybe your board of supervisors or whoever does your local governing need to put together tougher laws covering permits and licenses for any future "gurus" that might arrive in your area. I have noticed in my travels through New Mexico and Arizona that there are these hidden away conference centers for spiritual enlightenment, or fancy SPAs that are scattered throughout sparsely populated areas. I'm sure most are legitimate but it only takes one or two con men who come along and notice the lack of real regulation, so they are delighted to set up shop for those they can easily fleece.

[juno jones]

22. Thanks for the info.

I had my suspicions. I've noticed that groups for such things by legitimate healers, etc are kept intentionally small.

And $9000! I am struck by the similarities between this and gilded-age spa hucksterism in the late ninteeth century. Then again, I bet pieces of the true cross weren't cheap either in their heyday...

PS Pluto IS out of Sag now. I think we will be seeing more unveilment of this sort...

[Delphinus]

26. I think everyone

is quite happy that the light will reveal the truth. Sometimes it's quite unsettling, but it's leading us to a better way.

Thanks, Juno! :hi:

[lildreamer316]

23. self-delete( I don't think it's true)

don't want to be spreading false news like that...

Found this:

"Nineteen others were taken to area hospitals, but most were soon released.

Starla Addair with the Flagstaff Medical Center said one person remains in critical condition Sunday, but that three others were either in fair or good condition Sunday night."


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/other/story/Family-of-woman-killed-at-Sedona-sweat-lodge/anOabxeh2EmLllo0TcCpxA.cspx

[Desertrose]

24. Oh no...haven't heard that. Hope its not true.

Let me know if you get a link.....

[lildreamer316]

25. I think it's not true.

Check my post; I edited and included link.
Thank goodness!!

[Matariki]

28. This is why the ability to be intellectually discriminating is of vital importance

especially for people on a spiritual path. I see far too many people willing to believe anything and everything someone making claims to spiritual authority says to them.

[winyanstaz]

30. This is so wrong on so many levels...

My heart goes out to the families and friends of those that died.

[Why Syzygy]

31. This is an interesting article.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/religionandtheology/1906/new_age_tragedy_in_sedona:_non-indians_in_the_sweat_lodge__/?page=1

The sweat lodge is considered the womb of the Mother Earth, a living being, so it must breathe in order for it to participate in the ceremony. News accounts out of Sedona indicate that Ray’s sweat lodge was covered in plastic sheeting. As I have tracked the news stories and anecdotes of sweat lodge deaths and near-disasters, every one of them was covered with plastic sheeting or plastic tarps.

Missed by many who use the lodge is its fundamental purpose of celebrating creation and the creator as emerging from the principle of the feminine.

In my tribe, women control the sweat lodge. While men may tend the fire, brings the rocks, or be the one who pours the water, the lodge is “owned” by the women. They decide when; usually on the full or new moons. They decide who attends, and where the lodge is to be built. Participants become brothers and sisters in the womb and emergence allows a new start purified of past events or illnesses, spiritual or physical.

[WhiteTara]

32. when I read $9000, I knew he was a con man

and two hours in a sweat is obscene. I hope he gets sued from here to the end of time.
Sorry that all those horrid folks feed off Sedona's energy. I've never been, but I've seen pics and it seems magical.

[Bluestar]

33. Two new articles from AZ press about this incident

Here, James Arthur Ray tells an audience he's being "tested" by this incident. Sounds like he's trying to milk it for some kind of weird sympathetic response from his audience.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/10/14/20091014sedonadeaths1014.html

and here it says that paramedics have been called to TWO other of his sweat lodges in Sedona. Sounds like he is only interested in his participants' wallets, not their safety:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/10/14/20091014sweatlodgerecords1014-ON.html

I can't believe that THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE and he's now suddenly being "tested"?? I know a lot of us on this board hold seminars and events and I know that not one of us would be so blase about paramedics being called for any reason. And if that did happen each one of us would leave no stone unturned to get to the bottom of the problem and ensure the safety of our participants. This, more than anything, makes me believe Mr. Ray is a phony and a sham artist.

I consider Sedona my sacred home and visit there several times a year. I am so sorry that this happened there, but I also believe this is part of the truth that's being revealed in this shift energy--the sham artists are being exposed.

[Cleita]

34. Didn't this person write, "The Secret"?

It seems to have changed people's lives, even here on this forum. I personally have had beliefs that are similar. I saw nothing wrong with making common beliefs more well known. Now I don't know what to think.

[Bluestar]

35. I believe the book/movie was written by Rhonda Byrne

But I understand that James Arthur Ray appears in the movie. I have no problem with the concepts he espouses (and think that they are good), but I think it is the intention behind the teacher that is important. My philosophy--watch what they do, not just what they say. I think his actions here speak loudly.

[get the red out]

37. Exactly

Christians all use the Bible, the ones who serve meals to the homeless and the child molester priests.

[northernlights]

36. he may be charged with murder

I saw an article at work today -- sheriff says the deaths weren't accidental and he may charge him with murder.

In the meantime, he held a conference call with the attendees and one of his followers who is a channeler told them that they were having out of body experiences and having so much fun they decided not to come back. :(

[Delphinus]

38. Uh,

maybe so, but that's not going to hold up in a court of law. It's that kind of callous attitude that gives spiritual seekers a bad rap. Me thinks he's showing his true colors.

[northernlights]

40. no joke.

He and his kind make us all look like dopes. :(

In the meantime, thankfully, none of his actions -- refusing to cooperate with police, leaving the scene, the conference call -- are going to help him in court.

[Why Syzygy]

42. Actually, it is the right thing to do

to refuse to talk to police. Never, never, never talk to the police without being in possession of legal representation. Not talking can not be used against you in a court of law. ANYTHING you say will be used against you if there is any way at all to do so. Even small lapses in memory or changing the story can and WILL be used against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=PlayList&p=C4A064CAA93B0EB7&index=0&playnext=1

[northernlights]

43. then you call a lawyer and "cooperate" with lawyer by your side

It's not like he doesn't have the money to do that. This guy has been on Oprah. He has created a potential PR nightmare for himself (not that he doesn't deserve it). He can refuse to cooperate, but will eventually be extradicted. This won't go away, and looking like you're refusing to cooperate and don't care will not help him down the road. (Which all in all is not a bad thing)

What you don't do in his position is flee the state.

[SpiralHawk]

39. Statement from Chief Arvol Looking Horse on Sedona deaths

"As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned for
the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a sweat
lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the
news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not our
ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My
prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.

"Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient
ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of our
inikag¹a (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is
interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term does
not fit our real meaning of purification..."

(snip...much more...)
http://ecn.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!DFAE654BAA0D7010!615.entry#trackback

[northernlights]

41. thank you for this, SpiralHawk

I feel for Chief Arvol Looking Horse, and all his people. They do not deserve this...it's just another white exploitation of the natives.

[Desertrose]

45. I was glad to see Chief Arvol LH address this....

Thanks for posting.

:loveya:
DR

[Desertrose]

44. Third death today .....10/17

I was so sad to hear this...but just had a feeling.....


FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – A Minnesota woman who was hospitalized with damage to multiple organs after she was overcome in an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony died Saturday, sheriff's officials said.


Scuttlebut I've heard is that the Yavapai sheriff is not going to let this go...and I hope he doesn't.

As of this weekend, Ray is still giving his free "recruiting" seminars to get more people to sign on for his expensive seminars.

Incredible.

[Delphinus]

46. If he's still recruiting,

he doesn't seem to have learned.

[Angel Wings]

47. Nor is he a spiritually honest person

in my opinion

[Desertrose]

48. The word "recruiting" really bothers me Delphinus.....

and I wonder if believes his own stuff or as you suggest, Angel Wings, he is just plain spiritually dishonest - which AFAIC is the worst kind of dishonesty. Knowing certain truths and disregarding them for selfish gain.

Seems to come down to *STS or *STO doesn't it?


(Service To Self/Service To Others)