Help!!! My JRT hates my other JRT.

[Minimus]

It's been awhile since I've posted so some may not remember me. I had 3 Jack Russells: Sonic, Frolic, and Mimic. My 13 yr old Sonic went to doggie heaven on 12/1/2004 and I still miss him so much.

Frolic is 4 and has always been aggressive towards other dogs (except Sonic). We got Mimic when Sonic got too old to play with Frolic but Frolic has never liked her very much to put it mildly. We have had several fights, some severe (husband got finger bit off while breaking up the last one- it was sewed back on - but if his finger hadn't got in the way, then Mimic would have been killed, cause his bone was completely crushed and severed)

Our regular Vet tried medication, pheromone therapy (something you plug into an outlet and supposedly has calming effect). We took her to a Behavioral Vet (very costly) he determined she is not really an aggressive dog, she is so sweet with humans but has serious "sibling rivalry" issues. He helped us with understanding the pecking order and how to "re-train" Mimic to be submissive to Frolic. That didn't work.

My husband and I separated for a few months so he took Frolic and Mimic and I lived in peace. We are back together but have been afraid of letting the dogs be together.

Our house has been set up like a prison with lock down procedures, gates are everywhere.

So last week we called in a "Dog Whisperer", well not really a whisperer but a very good behavior/trainer. When she walked into our house and our dogs became completely different animals. She put them together in the gated off kitchen without muzzles and Frolic did not even attempt to be aggressive. She taught us all kinds of tricks and techniques and was there for 3 hours (at $80/hour). We were feeling confident that we would be able to get to the point of being a happy family with doggies that got along.

We worked with them all week. Mimic (the 1 yr old) is like a different dog. We put them together (muzzled, cause we are not that brave) and Mimic submitted to Frolic, yet Frolic did not want to back off. We had to use this thingy that makes a high pitched noise (recommended by the "whisperer") and Frolic finally backed off. If they weren't muzzled there would have been blood.

We have continued working with them but yesterday Frolic was outside and Mimic was inside. Mimic needed to go potty so I picked her up, let Frolic in and put Mimic out. Before I could blink an eye Frolic had shot through my legs and jumped on Mimic from behind as she was going down the deck steps. She just attacked her for no reason. I screamed, picked Frolic up from behind and Mimic came up too. Frolic had a good hold of her (No wounds, so I think she just had her fur), She finally let her go. Frolic simply just hates Mimic.

The dog trainer is coming back to our house today for the follow up. We love both of our dogs (Mimic reminds me of Sonic, she has the same sweet personality and does the cute things he always did. She has helped with my grief over Sonic). Frolic is a sweetie pie - as an only child - and she is "Daddies little girl". He never owned a dog before and they are best friends even though she bit off his finger.

If we can't live together in harmony what are we going to do? A life of gates everywhere would not be good. We are at our wits end and have spent so much money on leashes, muzzles, training aids, as well as the expense of all the Vets/Medications/Behaviorists/Medical bills (to stitch up my husband)/Vet bills (to stitch up Mimic).

Does anyone have any other suggestions??????

[China_cat]

1. Sorry, no suggestions that you would want to hear

because they would include rehoming one of the dogs. But I can tell you that the absolute worst fights I have ever had to deal with have been female on female. It is hard having 2 same sex dogs in the same household.

I'm assuming that they are both spayed? If not, that might be something you could do that you could live with. Get rid of the hormones and you might ease the aggression.

[Minimus]

2. Both are spayed and re-homing was an option

the dog trainer suggested today. She basically said Frolic's brain was wired wrong because she doesn't understand the pecking order. When Mimic submits it just isn't good enough, she wants to kill her. The trainer says she has never seen anything like it.

The trainer suggested getting rid of one by putting Frolic down because she would never be able to handle being around other dogs, or find Mimic a good home since she is still young and sooo cute. Or we can continue to live as we have been, but make sure Frolic has her muzzle on at all times when Mimic is around.

I do not feel right putting a healthy dog to sleep, it was hard enough on me with Sonic and he was very sick. And there is no way we can give Mimic away, her mannerisms are just like Sonic's were and I miss him dearly.

So for now we will continue to keep them apart and give them a good home and lots of love. One good thing is Frolic is pretty laid back (except when it comes to other dogs) so she is easy to muzzle and crate and seems to take it all in stride. The trainer even said Frolic did not appear uncomfortable, stressed, sad, or unloved because she had to wear a muzzle.

It would be nice if she liked Mimic and they could be friends and play together 'cause Mimic sure loves to play. But Frolic was destined to be an only child. Oh well, one day at a time.

[China_cat]

3. I hope you have luck with this.

It's not easy dealing with aggressive animals. I wholeheartedly agree with you, however, about not putting Frolic down.

[livetohike]

4. We had a similar problem

and I read all I could find on the Internet. Since you have a behaviorist working with you, I am not sure what I can add, but here is what I learned:

* Let the dogs work out who is the Alpha (remember that you and your husband are really the Alpha!)

* Always treat the dominant dog first. He/she gets their food bowl down first, gets a treat first and walks through the door first (after you), gets groomed first, etc.

* You have to be consistent in this

* Adding to the problem is the way one reacts to it - freaking out only causes the dogs to react further

My dogs were brought home as puppies one month apart. I tried to break up a fight which resulted in a trip to the ER for stitches. They were puppies! I wasn't sure how it would work out, but perseverance has worked. They are two years old now and have an occasional fight, but no bloodletting.

Good luck and keep trying.

[oregonjen]

5. I don't know if this is humane or not, but what about a shock collar?

Don't be upset at me if it is an inhumane way to treat Frolic. I was thinking a shock collar would help. If Frolic starts after Mimic, giving Frolic a shock might stop the behavior.

I've never seen a shock collar before, only heard of them. Just wondering if that is a possibility.

Good luck with your dogs.

[China_cat]

6. Shock collars call for impeccable timing to work

and in this case would more than likely make Frolic hate Mimic even more, seeing that Mimic is the cause of her getting zapped.

[mopinko]

7. this is why i have rats and not jrts

they are something else, for sure.
do they have crates? it will not hurt these hard heads to spend a good chunk of their day in a crate. one in and one out. more for frolic.
how much obedience work do they get? i would have them on long stays, nose to nose, for an hour before i fed them. and i would make mimic wait until frolic is done. frolic might not mind letting her be above her on the pecking order, but you can switch that in YOUR pecking order, and take a little wind out of her sails.

do you oversee meal times? make sure that you approve every morsel that goes into anyone's mouth, and make sure bowl raiding is immediately and harshly punished. can you hold out a treat and tell them which one can eat it? sounds like you might need leather gloves to teach that one.

if you have to rehome, maybe you can find mimic a placement where he will have a lot of ratting to do. a horse farm or something. they are made to kill. if they don't have rats, they can get hung up on something else. i have a major, major beef with rescue organizations that refuse to place dogs in working situations (which is all of the ones i know about). working dogs without work is probably the number one cause of behavior problems in dogs. but just see how far you get trying to adopt one of those dogs and give them a job. maybe the jrt people are smarter than that.

[matt819]

8. Sounds very familiar

Not to play the one-up, but I now have four JRTs, for a total of 8 over the past 20 years. WE had, I suppose, something of a similar set of problems.

Background. WE have one who turns 15 in two days and another who's been with us for 10 years. No social issues there. In Feb 2004 we got Buffy after the 15-year-old's litter mate died. She blended beautifully -- one big, happy family.

Then, in February of this year we adopted Maggie, who was 10 months old at the time. She had baggage. At 2 weeks old her mother was killed by an ATV (vile vehicles), so the breeder bottle fed her. She was the runt of the litter and could not be placed. She spent days in a kennel with her sire and so had major socialization issues. The day we picked her up for a trial visit was hell on wheels. She spent several hours trying to kill Buffy and nipping nastily at the older ones. She didn't seem to know how to play - no sniffing, no playful behavior, definitely no submissive behavior. We though about taking her home right then and there, but there was an ice storm, and she was (and is) a cutie, so we thought we give it a try.

Basically, for the better part of 8 hours we "distracted and redirected" the other three, going through tons of dog treats. And we even began to get Maggie used to the idea of a treat for good behavior; I'm sure things were not helped by the fact that she didn't seem to know her name at the time (we've since renamed her Maggie, and she definitely answers, when she feels like it). In any case, by the end of the evening, the two combatants were lying side by side as if they were the best of friends and what was all the fuss about.

You know Jack Russells - they enjoy playing, and they sometimes play rough. These two are no different. It seems at times that they are going to kill each other, but most of the times it's rough play. That said, there are times when they do go at each other. We can almost always anticipate the situation - usually involving a bone, some sort of preferential treatment, and almost always indoors (almost never do they do this outside). They go at each other pretty damn seriously. Once they are separated and yelled at, they seem to know that they've crossed the line and they go about their normal interplay. Go figure. They're dogs.

All in all, these two are very protective of each other (when they choose to be) and of their territory - which can be the house, a particular room, their dog beds, etc. And if a newcomer comes in, you have to be careful. But, again, we now know that and can anticipate problems.

Back to the time before Maggie -- we called in our local dog whisperer because Buffy was a little nuts with a move to a new house. She helped us understand what was going on, which helped quite a bit, but she also told us about the Gentle Leader muzzle-type lead and the lactating bitch pheromone dispenser. Both worked wonders in calming Buffy, and the pheromones seemed to calm the older ones as well. You can get both at the pet store (and yes, I know, some pet stores are evil, but they do have pet stuff). I can't remember the name of that pheromone stuff, but the pet store people will know.

Hope this helps.