How da F! does I git my Windows files more together earlier on my disk?

[struggle4progress]

I've got XP on an old machine. My existing files take up only about 20% of the disk but they're scattered hither and yon across it. I want to install another OS on the same disk for regular use but don't want to lose my option to use XP now and then. The new OS can be installed without any difficulty on (say) the last 1/3 or 1/2 of the hard drive if there's contiguous free space there -- but I can't figure out how to easily relocate the handful of files that windows has left splattered there. Defragging doesn't help. Compressing old files and then defragging doesn't help

A big hearty %#@%! to XP for this headache

[Why Syzygy]

1. Have you run scan disk

to make sure none of the sectors are damaged? Did you run a deleted file remover program? I use a Tool within Revo. There's also Power Defrag: http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/Hard-Disk-Utils/Power-Defragmenter.shtml : I had to originally find and use that because Windows couldn't defrag the Outlook file. My machine is about 70% clear, and if we can go by the Defrag graphic, it is all within the first half of the disk.

[struggle4progress]

2. Can't use scan disk with NTFS file system but ran chkdsk after verifying I didn't have the version

with known bugs. With various switches, chkdsk doesn't find any problems

I've spent enough hours on this today, so I guess I'll try Power Defrag tomorrow. Many thanks for the suggestion

[struggle4progress]

3. Well, Power Defrag does a better job defragging -- but it's left two gigantic files out towards

the end of the disk. One of them is probably a backup file (which was still in thousands of pieces before I used power defrag), which I may be able to save, delete, and then recopy to the disk; I currently have no idea what the other one might be

[Why Syzygy]

5. oops. I meant chk disk

You knew what I intended. What about "evidence remover" in Revo? And do you use Ccleaner?

[struggle4progress]

6. I can try things like that, but I don't think the problem is persistence of deleted files.

I think the problems are: (1) unwillingness of Microsoft to make it easy to defragment free space and (2) various applications that run in the background so the defraggers won't defrag them

Aggressively deleting junk I don't need and repeatedly defragging has reduced the problem considerably. So has defragging in safe mode, to shut down various background programs during defragging. My current guess about my remaining problem is that Semantec Live Update is causing me some grief. If push comes to shove, I may just remove that anti-virus package completely, because I really don't think much of it: it's slow and clunky and nobody seems to think it works very well. Revo or something like that may be helpful then. I'm also considering trying some other defragging programs

[struggle4progress]

7. Power Defrag in Safe Mode is a clunky nightmare

In normal mode, it required something like 30-45 minutes. In safe mode it's been clunking along for more than 12 hours now with no end in sight

[struggle4progress]

8. OK! Power Defrag in Safe Mode may have done the trick and it only took about 15 hours!

The graphic indicates all files are in the first third or so of the disk (but, of course, the graphic might be lying to me)

If that didn't work, I think my next step would have been Auslogics Disk Defrag, which apparently runs the Windows defragger as a stand-alone before Windows starts up -- hopefully further reducing the problem of untouchable files-in-use. Something that was rumored to work, but didn't live up to expectations (perhaps because of the untouchable files-in-use problem) was running Windows defrag a second time immediately after a first run (without closing the defrag GUI, I think)

On to my Ubuntu installation attempt!

[struggle4progress]

9. Or not. The Ubuntu installer thinks only the last 4% of the disk is free

[RoyGBiv]

10. Have you attempted the GParted solution?

Also, do you know which files are being consistently left near the end of the disc?

Often, this is the pagefile or some of the other files that are marked as "unmovable." With the pagefile especially, you can delete the file(s) and reconstruct them afterward, which sometimes solves this without the need for a third-party software solution.

[Why Syzygy]

12. Pagefile and Prefetch .... nt

[struggle4progress]

14. Some of the remaining problem is prefetch

[RoyGBiv]

18. Thar she blows!!!

Yeah ... prefetch is the one I was having trouble remembering. Thanks. That was actually making me a bit crazy(er).

I need to play with a Windows system again. My memory fog is getting way too thick.

[struggle4progress]

13. I'd bet the Ubuntu installer uses gparted in the partitioning phase of installation

I've been trying to figure out how to decide which files are where: the DOS dir command apparently isn't designed to yield physical sector info

After several applications of Power Defrag and Auslogics Disk Defrag (which are Microsoft-owned freeware) didn't make much more progress, I tried MyDefrag which supposedly uses the Microsoft APIs but includes an optimization option. It showed two tiny clusters in the free zone (both invisible in the Windows XP defragger graphic) and cleaned up one of them: I can use it to identify the other as some small "unmovable" prefetch and log files, together with a larger "C:$Bitmap". MyDefrag now shows the second half of the disk empty and the last 80% of the disk empty except for this small cluster, but the Ubuntu installer still wants to give about 95% of the disk to Windows XP. MyDefrag analysis identifies a large region near the end of the disk as "NTFS reserved area," which googling suggests is reallocated with every boot, so it's probably not be critical to steal it when XP isn't running. I'm pretty close to thinking I can manually partition the drive 50/50 in the Ubuntu installer: but this isn't critical work -- it's hobbyist stuff, so there's no hurry. I may slap in my old Partition Magic disk and see if I can learn anything from it without making irrevocable changes. And I'd like to know the significance of the C:$Bitmap file, if possible

[Why Syzygy]

16. You can safely delete the Prefetch file...

It will be rebuilt on next XP reboot, however, but much smaller.

eta: Do you have MS C+ or ++ installed?

Here's something you might like... since it's hobby:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645.aspx

[RoyGBiv]

17. C:$Bitmap

If I recall correctly, this is something the NTFS file system drops on a disc as sort of a "map" of where data is stored. Again IIRC (and I may not), it's similar to Linux filesystems' superblock.

I imagine it could be bad if it were deleted.

Moving it, however, should not theoretically be a huge issue. If the comparison I hold above is in any way true, you can actually backup the superblock and restore it at leisure with the dd command.

As for GParted, I believe Ubuntu does use that as its partitioner. I was referring more specifically to the GParted LiveCD. I've used this in situations where the native installer of whatever distro I was attempting to install burped at the presence of Windows related data on various portions of the disc. I'm not certain it would solve your problem, of course, but thought it might be worth a go.

[struggle4progress]

19. Yes, the Live CD is easy to burn from an iso. I did that last night after finding that some people

reported bad results after using Partition Magic. I can boot from the CD fine and the resizing apparatus looks a lot like what I'd get from the manual partitioning in the Ubuntu Installer. The GParted Live CD will left me resize the NTFS partition, but it doesn't seem to give me info about what files I might ignorantly lose if I do so: it merely warns that I could lose data

$Bitmap does seem to be important, and I don't know why it's parked in outer space. If chkdsk is worth anything, it should verify and if necessary fix $Bitmap -- but at least some versions apparently have some bugs

... Cluster Allocation Bitmap $Bitmap ... Contains a "map" showing which clusters on the volume are used and which are available for use ...
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/ntfs/archFiles-c.html

... $Bitmap An array of bit entries: each bit indicates whether its corresponding cluster is used (allocated) or free (available for allocation) ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS

05-06-2005, 12:25 AM
When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I reboot,
many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box that says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error goes away. This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here: http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/...tem-glitch.html The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in volume bitmap" error ... http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-1738381.php

[Why Syzygy]

11. Bummer indeed.

I've never run Power Defrag in safe mode. When I first started running it a couple years ago, it did take a long time. With my new install, and since I keep stuff cleaned up and defragged, it just breezes through.

If I were you, my next step would be to run "Evidence Remover" tool in Revo. (You have to hunt for it in the tool menu.) That DOES take awhile. Note your free disk space before and after. All I ever delete are old back up game files (300 MG) and temp internet files. With 70%+ free disk space, it can still free up an additional several percentage.

[struggle4progress]

15. Thanks for the suggestion. I downloaded Revo yesterday. I'll get around to trying it soon

[struggle4progress]

20. The Revo junk file remover worked okay. The evidence remover doesn't find much I'd remove.

The disk is over 80% free anyway: the problem is file placement. In particular, there's something like NTFS swap space near the end of the drive plus the $Bitmap allocation near the middle

[Why Syzygy]

26. The E.R. removes deleted data.

I'm not aware that it shows you what it will remove.
Junk files cleaner is good too; but in my case, Ccleaner always gets to those first.

[struggle4progress]

28. I may have confused them in my reply, but I ran them both

Anyway, thanks again for the suggestion

[RoyGBiv]

4. This is a tricky process ...

When I've done it, I've used a Linux live CD such a http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php">GParted.

Note the warnings.

I usually end up with a Windows installation that has to "repair" itself, but I haven't managed to kill one yet. YMMV.

[struggle4progress]

21. OK. Here's what I think I'll do:

unfortunately, the sucky microsoft backup doesn't work well, so I can't easily do a complete backup prior to plunging: it won't create a complete backup on an external HD, on a large flash, or on the cd, so I've only got a limited backup

the disk has been pretty well-compacted near the beginning by MyDefrag, but I've got a few files like $Bitmap near the middle. $Bitmap should be repaired by chkdsk and as far as I can tell the other files aren't much to worry about

I've got chkdsk on a DOS boot diskette. I'll boot into it and make sure it works. Then I'll reboot into a Live CD of GParted and resize the NTFS partition to free up about the last 40% of the disk. Supposedly, that currently contains nothing but NTFS reserved space that is reallocated at every boot. Then I'll reboot into the DOS disk and rerun chkdsk to repair any damage to stuff like $Bitmap, which shouldn't have been affected but might be if I've somehow been stupid. Then I'll reboot into the Ubuntu installer and install imn the free space. Then I'll reboot into Windows and see if I need to attempt repairs

[struggle4progress]

22. Norton 360 (a clunky slow security program) was splattering Live Update files all over my free space

So I deleted it without sorrow

[struggle4progress]

23. Ha! Resized the NTFS partition to half its original size with Gparted and added

ext3 and linux-swap partitions for ubuntu. Couldn't run chkdsk in DOS so ran the installer: XP was grouchy about the partition change and ran chkdsk itself when I tried to boot XP from GRUB. XP still runs. Updating Ubuntu now

The problem seems to have been Norton 360, since the problematic NTFS files all disappeared or relocated closer to the beginning of the disk after deletion of the Norton product. I used Revo to delete, but it seems merely to have found and run the Norton uninstaller

[RoyGBiv]

24. That's been my experience ...

... the first bit about XP being grouchy after a re-size.

GParted is fairly smart about these things generally.

I'm not at all surprised about the problem you were experiencing being traced back to Norton. Not at all surprised.

[struggle4progress]

25. I thought Norton 360 was a sucky security product. Ten minutes after I installed it, I was sorry

that I had. It suddenly took forever for the machine to boot, and my browsing became an exercise in waiting and waiting and waiting

[Why Syzygy]

29. In Revo ..

always use the "Advanced" option. It does indeed launch the application's uninstaller. Then "Next" finds all the registry entries left behind; "Next" again, all the related files. The original program (empty) folder usually has to be deleted manually.

[struggle4progress]

31. Thanks. I'll check that out if I ever boot Windows XP again. I shut down that machine

a year ago, and although it has a lot of stuff on it that I'd prefer not to discard, it's not stuff I use very often. After a year of using OSX in some machines and several months of using Ubuntu on others, I'm not in much of a hurry to experience the joy of XP

[Why Syzygy]

32. Have you read anything about

the comparisons of Windows 7 to Leopard? It gives me hope, but don't know if it's well founded.

[struggle4progress]

33. Not in any systematic fashion: I read a review of Snow Leopard earlier

today, whose author thought Windows 7 was better than Snow Leopard

For all I know, it may be better in some ways. But my experience with Windows has not been happy. The version I bought a decade ago had Internet Explorer bundled with the operating system. Unfortunately, my IE got corrupted -- and to repair it, I had to (1) make back up copies of all my files, (2) reinstall Windows, (3) reinstall all my programs, and (4) copy back all my files. On my next machine, I got a later version, which like a good boy scout I resolved to keep up-to-date by installing the updates. About the third or fourth time I did so, the update (which had taken me forever to download) didn't work properly; I had a restore point and could restore, but it was a time-consuming hassle and so I stopped doing the updates. I haven't enjoyed either the interface or all the various crap that can go wrong with the registries etc

OS X has been a much happier experience for me. Apple is certainly not perfect. One version of OS X originally contained a gross tactical mistake with respect to DNS, but I could find out in a few days of googling what the problem was and fix it -- and Apple fixed the problem soon after in an update. Time Machine is really a very nice back-up system. When I (idiot that I am) wiped out my boot sector earlier this year, it wasn't very hard to reformat the disk and just restore the system to the state it had about an hour before my snafu

Ubuntu has its limitations and a slight learning curve but once I've gotten used to it I find that it does a number of things very well: for example, it handles my broadband beautifully. Installing canonical-supported packages is very easy, and in many other cases one can find Debian versions that install without effort. I bought a network card for one of my machines: it came with a driver CD for Windows, but Ubuntu found a driver itself without any work at all from me. I bought a dial-up modem (cuz the machine had a Win-modem): again, it came with a driver CD for Windows, but Ubuntu found a driver itself without any work at all from me

I bought and installed Vista on a machine last spring and it was a rather more tedious enterprise than I should have liked: I don't like the interface, and I think it's performance on my Mac is slow and clunky; that may be unfair, since it's installed under Bootcamp (which won't support 64-bit Vista), but Windows always feels slow and clunky to me. I have Ubuntu on an old machine with about 640MB RAM and a processor I've just upgraded from 450mhz to 850mhz processor; it's my (subjective) impression Ubuntu ran rather faster on the 450mhz machine than Windows did, and I'd bet boot time for 32-bit Ubuntu on the 850mhz machine with 640MB RAM isn't much different than for 32-bit Vista on a much faster MAC I have much much more RAM

Windows has a reputation for bloat: as machines get faster and have more RAM, Windows seems to bigger and its performance doesn't seem to improve as much as one might hope. I can get a multiple machine upgrade to Snow Leopard for $50, and Snow Leopard is a smaller OS than Leopard was. Windows may actually have improved significantly over the years, and (since it has a huge market share) it certainly supports more programs and hardware than OS X or Ubuntu, but much of that is irrelevant for my needs: Windows would have to improve substantially before I take another look at it

[hobbit709]

34. I used Nlite on my XP X64

to remove the crap I don't want in my Windoze install. Got rid of IE, Outlook, Messenger and a couple of other things. Made an install disk and reinstalled with the crap out. My system now boots in just over 30 seconds from power on to desktop and performance is greatly increased. Of course I refuse to use M$ applications which are resource hogs also.
I don't think anyone at MS knows how to write tight code anymore.

[Why Syzygy]

27. LOL!

:rofl:

[struggle4progress]

30. Yeah, I bet I've aged my hard drive by a year in the last forty-eight hours