DUers contempt for those concerned with animal rights.

[smbolisnch]

In the last 24 hours, I have been involved in two, count em two Peta threads. People are so mean and nasty and downright condescending. What is the deal? The compassion of our party never ceases to amaze me.

Maybe I should just ignore them, but I can't stand it. Some of them are downright hateful about it too.

I think what bothers me the most is this....
If someone starts a silly post, like the one in the lounge today about the best kind of cheese, that's cool. I could really care less who eats cheese. I don't for personal reasons. The last thing I would do is jump in on that post and start flaming. Such immaturity and lack of respect.

Any thoughts on this?

[RebelOne]

1. I have discovered that most DUers

love to bash PETA. That only threads I jump into are when someone posts bragging that they killed a deer. Then I see red and can't help myself and have to make a nasty remark.

[flvegan]

2. If one really thought about it

PETA isn't much different than, say, Billionaires For Bush. They make their factual points in grand, vocal and unabashed mockery. What's the difference? Well, most DUers can relate to, and probably support BFB, as they stand where they stand...against Bush.

I also notice that a great many of the PETA-bashers have been sucked in by the very commercial media that they hate. Every time I hear about PETA being a terrorist organization, or supporting terrorism, I have to bite my tongue before I ask which Fox station they heard that on. It's untrue, but it fits what they want to believe...sound familiar <cough> Iraq <cough>?

But, no one large group will ever see eye-to-eye on everything. In every family, brothers/sisters will fight.

[Mizmoon]

3. Non-vegetarian's opinon

It's far more primal than what you folks are discussing, I think. The domination of animals is viewed at some level as not just our right, but our obligation. The mere suggestion that a pig deserves the minimal respect of not being brutally killed and eaten seems to interfere with the human right to rule the earth. Meat is power.

Look at fast food commercials lately and you'll notice a new theme ... the black person dominating the white person - somehow via a big mac. One commercial in particilar I recall shows a very dark black man in a fancy white convertable, eating a huge hamburger with gusto, as a white young man cleans his car. What is the message? Meat is power.

Think of Ghandi as he tried to learn the secret of British power in India. When he was still a western looking lawyer, he decided to try to eat meat to see if it was the source of their power since they ate meat and Hindus didn't. Again, meat means power.

That is why when you approach them about abandoning meat, they act like you want them to hack their own cocks off - in their minds, you are asking them to give up their power and they don't want to no matter how much the pigs suffer.

That was kind of random. Hope it makes sense. I'm an aspiring vegetarian but not quite there yet.

[JackieO]

6. Good call

and good luck :hi:

[vinessa4freedom]

8. wow.

Very insightful. Thank you for that, and for making the effort to go veg. It took some of us quite a while to get there, so hang in there and do what you feel comfortable with.

[CrispyQ]

25. Meat as power is something I had not thought of.

I know that meat is status, but power is the ultimate status & therefore any attack against power symbols will be meant with tremendous resistance.

Thanks for this insight.

[curse10]

4. like this bullshit thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2904073&mesg_id=2904509&page=

I can't believe there are people on this board actually saying that there isn't a difference in eating plants or animals.

There is obviously a fundamental difference. And of course plants are alive, but they don't feel. Plants are pretty simple biological creatures in the grand scheme of things. I would hope that scientists would have discovered a CNS by now. There's a reason they haven't: IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!! And, even if it did: by eating plants you are still creating less pain and suffering. To eat that disgusting hamburger the cow has to eat the vegetables then you eat the cow. Let's cut out the middle man and just eat the vegetables. It's cheaper and more environmentally sound. Not to mention morally right.

[smbolisnch]

7. I tried to explain the the person int he thread about glue traps.

They suggested veggies were cruel and torturing plants. When I said they didn't have a CNS they asked if I was absolutely SURE. I asked them if they wanted a reference but they turned me down. :eyes: Some people argue for the sake of arguing. :mad:

[Piperay]

5. I have seen about three of those PETA

threads in the last 24 hours, not only are some of the statements mean and cruel regarding animals but they are so inaccurate they are nothing but bullshit. The one that was so idiotic was the one about PETA protesting some thrift store, turned out the guy who posted it even admitted he knew nothing. The irony is that DUers demand everything else that is posted be TOTALLY factual and have links but with PETA threads it appears that 'anything goes'. :mad: I got so disgusted I tried to use the 'ignore thread' feature so I didn't have to see that crap anymore but couldn't opt out that way cause apparently it wasn't working. :argh:

[SiouxJ]

9. It strikes a nerve because

I believe they really do love their meat and deep down they know there's a lot of pain involved in giving them their daily supply, so when they are faced with people who have decided they don't want to be a part of that, they feel guilt (deep down, they will never admit it). They rationalize their meat eating in any way they can, just so they can live with themselves. It goes for other types of animal cruelty too. They don't like to think about such things so when you make a point about it, they get irate. Why are you making me think about this stuff?! It interferes with my convenient and yummy lifestyle! That's been my experience anyway. I've had a few more honest friends, who have told me they don't like to think about how the meat got on their plate. They say they just can't. They just want to stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and do "la la's." At least those people are honest. Other's approach is to make silly arguments about vegetables feeling pain, just so they can rationalize their addiction to meat.

Just by being vegetarians or people concerned about animal welfare, we are reminders of that inner guilt. They will never admit it, but I really believe that's why we bug them so much. Otherwise, why would they even care what we do?

[LisaLynne]

11. I totally agree.

I can remember before I stopped eating meat feeling very angry at vegetarians. When I finally realized why I had that reaction -- that I really knew it was something I should do, too -- I stopped eating meat. Now, I'm a happy person! :)

[Piperay]

12. You're on point completely

I have found that same attitude elsewhere. People get so defensive when they find out I am a vegetarian, even though I make it a point to never be judgmental toward them!

[Flaxbee]

21. yup - guilt...

and I agree with you, at least those who admit they want to ignore the way the meat got on the plate are being honest. "Liberals" on this board have an incredible ability for self-delusion, akin in my mind to * thinking he has liberated Iraq and made everyone there safe and happy.

But I digress. I don't have as much of an objection to eating meat as I do the horrendous way animals are farmed and slaughtered. If people still had the chickens in the backyard that they took eggs from and/or occasionally killed and ate, I wouldn't object. Certain mammals, reptiles, etc., eat "meat" and they do it in what I'd call an honest way. Humans, however, treat other sentient beings as nothing but commodities to be raised and fed in the cheapest way possible before they're horrifically slaughtered. If each and every animal was raised and treated with dignity and kindness, and killed humanely so that they were thorougly completely dead and unable to feel pain and fear BEFORE being processed (even that sounds just disgusting), I might on occasion have a slice of the turkey that my mother cooks over holidays. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I don't eat meat, haven't for more than 5 years, and am disgusted by the gluttony of many of my fellow humans and their refusal to acknowledge the fear and pain in the food industry. It just absolutely blows my mind that someone can ignore (or not care about) what happens so they can eat a cheeseburger.

[livinginphotographs]

10. I don't really bother with them anymore.

There's absolutely no listening to reason in those threads. It's all just a bunch of People for the Eating of Tasty Animals jokes.

I figure I'd just end up getting my posts deleted anyway (and deservedly so, I can be a bit of a hothead) so I leave them alone.

[Piperay]

13. I gets so tired of their

'tasty animals' joke, they think they are so original but if I had a dollar for everytime I had heard that I would be a millionaire. x(

[smbolisnch]

14. Oh yes you can say that again.

It drives me up a wall, not becasue of what is meant but just for the sheer stupidity and lack of creativity! :eyes:

[Rhiannon12866]

24. That's the only time I ever had a post deleted from DU

It was on an animal thread. Someone posted a darling photo of a dog that adopted a fawn. Two guys, who I knew were baiting the original poster, made remarks about the "tastiness" of venison. Totally inappropriate, and I should have just hit alert, but I lost my temper. Some people are just jerks, even here. Hopefully, they won't last long.:-(

[Lorien]

15. Personally, I think it's part of the overall pattern of adopting

RW memes. Rush Limbaugh has criticized "libruls" as being tree huggers who care more about "fuzzy seals and whales" than they do about human beings. My #1 issue for years has been the environment. As I see it, no other issue will matter if we can't live on this planet (and not being able to live on this planet could easily happen in our lifetimes). I've been flamed on various threads for "caring more about animals than people" when I voice concern over the loss of a habitat or species, or if I tell someone that donating to charities like the Wilderness defense fund is something worthwhile. Rush and other RW pundits have taught them that if you care about animals or the land, air, water, then you hate your fellow man. You want others to lose their jobs, you want to destroy American business (and thus destroy America) to save an owl. Caring about animals makes you soft, weak, hateful of humanity and anti-American. The motto now is "if I wanna do it and you don't like it, well then go f* ck yourself". Watch anti-SUV or anti-snowmobile threads; there's just as much hate and vitriol there as there is on pro- vegetarian threads, and all of it, IMHO, comes from an overall cultural shift to a "me first" society.

I've been off mammals for many years, and I try to cut out most other meats, though I do still eat fish and the occasional free range bird from time to time (if someone can tell me how to have a high protein diet that doesn't include soy, beans, nuts or dairy, please do. I'm on an incredibly restricted diet for a number of health reasons, and it's very hard to stick to). I've never hated anyone who was a vegetarian; I've only been mildly irritated when it's suggested that I should embrace hunting because I eat an occasional free range chicken (sure, at least a duck is free. I'm anti-gun and anti-joy killing, so I dislike hunters, period. I know that half of DU will hate me for that position) or that if I own anything made of leather than I should be eating steak. I admire people who can thrive on a vegan diet (though if someone hates me because I'm not vegan, then it's almost as bad as what comes from the other side), and I don't understand why anyone on this board-a so called "progressive" discussion board, would feel otherwise unless they've bought into the right wing noise machine's BS.

[Maru Kitteh]

19. What percentage of your calories must come from protein?

I'd be happy to help you do some research and get you away from those fish (so much mercury) and let the chickens continue ranging free. :)

Did you know that 11% of the calories in a potato are from protien? I'll bet we could work out something you could enjoy and be comfortable with. I'd love to help you. :hug:

[Lorien]

20. A minimum of 30%

and I need to greatly reduce my carb consumption-so potatoes are right out (the make my blood sugar skyrocket; I nearly fainted while driving after eating three small red skinned potatoes). I'm sticking to just a few veggies and an occasional slice of millet bread with cheese-even though I shouldn't be eating either one. I feel pretty awful right now (no energy).

[Maru Kitteh]

22. I'll go digging and see what I can find

If you could tell me what your "bad" foods or triggers are I could do some consulting with my old college friend who is a nutritionist.

Would love to help. Can you tolerate nutritional yeast? It can be thrown into shakes and sauces and sprinkled on pasta, salads, pizza, sandwiches, tons of stuff. Two servings would take care of your protien needs for the day and you would be free to eat whats most agreeable to you. Plust the B-12 might give you a nice energy kick and help regulate your metabolism. }(

http://www.bulkfoods.com/nutritional_yeast.htm

http://www.bulkfoods.com/yeast.htm

edited to add info on nutrional yeast.

[Lorien]

23. Well, so far the "bad" foods are

sugar, tomatoes, beans (including soy), wheat, potatoes (but not in bread-baked potatoes send my blood sugar through the roof), tropical fruits (blood sugar again), dairy and nuts (very small quantities OK).

That's all I can think of for now. Kind of limits a lot of possibilities!

[Maru Kitteh]

26. I think I found a few things that could be helpful

I'm sorry you are so restricted, it must be a burden sometimes.

Quinoa, cooked 1 cup 11 grams protein
Peas, cooked 1 cup 9
Split peas dry, cooked 1 cup 16
Pea soup canned 1 cup 9
Spinach, cooked or raw 1 cup 7
Broccoli, cooked 1 cup 6
Brown rice, cooked 1 cup 5
Asparagus, cooked 1 cup 5
Avacado 1 5
Barley 1 cup 16
Brussels Sprouts 1 cup 6
Carob Flour-tastes like chocolate 1 cup 6
Collard Greens 1 cup 5
Corn Meal 1 cup 11
Yellow corn 1 cup 5
Instant Oatmeal 1 cup 6
Dried Peaches 1 cup 6
pumpkin seeds 1 cup 7
pumkin pie 1 piece 6
SEAWEED, SPIRULINA, DRIED 1 oz 16
Special K cereal 1 cup 7
SUNFLOWER SEEDS 1 OZ 6
SWEETPOTATOES, CANNED, MASHED 1 CUP 5
Turnip greens 1 cup 5
mixed vegetables 1 cup 5


That's what I have for now, will see what else I can dig up from my books.

[Lorien]

28. Thanks so much for the list!

I'll copy it and print it out. I'm already eating most of those items, but I had no idea that Quinoa had so much protein in it!

:hi:

[BrklynLiberal]

16. If slaughterhouses had windows, everyone would be a vegetarian.

[Lorien]

17. You assume compassion is a given

The horrors of the Iraq war have not dimmed some people's support of it. The plight of the tsunami victims had some people saying that they deserved it because they were mostly Muslim, or because they weren't our allies in the Iraq war, or because Swedes vacation there, and most Swedes accept homosexuals. There are uncaring, hateful and sadistic people in the world. There are people who grill live kittens for fun. There are people who chase bison with snowmobiles until they drop dead for fun.Trophy hunting is widely accepted as a fun "sport". If slaughterhouses had windows, many of those same people would line up to watch-with popcorn. Society needs to embrace a culture of compassion again, instead of ridiculing the compassionate.

Ever read detailed descriptions of what really went on in the Roman Colosseum? We thought we had evolved and become enlightened since those times. Maybe not.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

27. Good & wise posts in this thread.

The posts by Mizmoon & SiouxJ about power & guilt
especially.

I use the x in the box at the end of smug anti-veg threads.
They are made to get the goat of veggies, so I personally
just say No thanks and x them out. I've been a veggie for over
30 years and don't have whatever it takes to fight people
who are adamantly smug and really perverse in their opinions.
Perverse in the sense that they are saying things to
deliberately provoke.

Part of the reason I don't eat meat (and am increasingly
trying to be vegan) is for the peace. There are
words of war and words of peace, acts of war and acts of
peace, thoughts of war and thoughts of peace. Not eating
meat adds to the peace in all those realms. I don't then
want to get into a mental/emotional/physiological stance
of war to argue or battle with the deliberate provokers and
mockers of not only what I believe in but what I do. I am
put in the position of hating these people whose minds &
habits I would change if I could. And in a state of war I
can't make people act more peacefully from their hearts
outward. I love to talk with people who are curious about
vegetarianism, but that's not the same thing as battling
the provokers.

Yesterday on the black forum on CSPAN one of the lesders
used the term "positive anger" that I had never heard before.
I took that to mean focusing this anger we feel against lies
and injustice and cruelty and cynicism, focusing it with some
kind of loving, compassionate hand. I find this very hard to
do myself. I am so easily filled with Billy Budd-like outrage
at the provokers' mockery that I can do no good but only escalate
the ire and bile. But if others try to counter that mockery
maybe it's possible to do so with a positive anger, meaning
not get into the anger the other folks want to provoke. I have
found myself that I can't do it, or not for long, and all I do
is get so upset myself that I'm not really doing my way any
good and not changing any minds or hearts. I'm in this for the
peace more and more, and if I can't further my beliefs with some
reasonable semblance of peace in my heart, then for now I decide
not to, at least in terms of the subject of this thread. I'm glad
this forum is here, it's a nice enclave, so thanks for those who started it and keep it going.