Amazing, were it not horrifying

[SemperEadem]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/world/europe/22cnd-germany.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

March 22, 2007
Germany Cites Koran in Rejecting Divorce
By MARK LANDLER
FRANKFURT, March 22 — A German judge has stirred a storm of protest here by citing the Koran in turning down a German Muslim woman’s request for a fast-track divorce on the ground that her husband beat her.

In a remarkable ruling that underlines the tension between Muslim customs and European laws, the judge, Christa Datz-Winter, said that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu, in which she said it was common for husbands to beat their wives. The Koran, she wrote, sanctions such physical abuse.

News of the ruling brought swift and sharp condemnation from politicians, legal experts, and Muslim leaders in Germany, many of whom said they were confounded that a German judge would put 7th-century Islamic religious teaching ahead of modern German law in deciding a case involving domestic violence.

The woman’s lawyer, Barbara Becker-Rojczyk, said she decided to publicize the ruling, which was issued in January, after the court refused her request for a new judge. On Wednesday, the court in Frankfurt abruptly removed Judge Datz-Winter from the case, saying it could not justify her reasoning.

“It was terrible for my client,” Ms. Becker-Rojczyk said of the ruling. “This man beat her seriously from the beginning of their marriage. After they separated, he called her and threatened to kill her.”

----more at the link

[Demeter]

1. Jesus Christ! If You Will Pardon the Phrase...

Time for a Reality Check in Germany.....

[youngdem]

2. Coming soon to an American courtroom near you with the Bible if we're not careful

The American Taliban wants to do this to us with Biblical law.

[seriousstan]

4. Really? They have had over 200 years and haven't moved toward it yet.

Perhaps you should focus on where and why it IS happening instead of deluding yourself about what you have no evidence for. Fact not fiction, this is currently happening in Germany, your scenario is only happening in your mind.

[SemperEadem]

6. perhaps the nuances of sarcasm sped past your understanding

We women get what she's saying. Too bad it's lost on you.

First off, yes we have moved towards it and it IS happening in this country: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/01/national/main664211.shtml

Pregnant Woman Denied Divorce
SPOKANE, Wash., Jan. 1, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP) A judge has refused to grant a divorce to a pregnant woman trying to leave her husband two years after he was jailed for beating her, ruling instead that she must wait until the child is born.

Shawnna Hughes' husband was convicted of abuse in 2002. She separated from him after the attack and filed for divorce last April. She later became pregnant by another man and is due in March.

Her husband, Carlos, never contested the divorce, and the court commissioner approved it in October. But the divorce papers failed to note that Hughes was pregnant, and when the judge found out, he rescinded the divorce.

"There's a lot of case law that says it is important in this state that children not be illegitimized," Superior Court Judge Paul Bastine told The Spokesman-Review newspaper on Thursday.

Hughes' attorney, Terri Sloyer, said nothing in state law says a pregnant woman cannot get a divorce.

"We don't live in 15th-century England," said Sloyer, who has appealed.

Under Washington state law, a husband is presumed to be the father of any child born within 300 days of a divorce. The judge argued that the paternity of the child needs to be determined before a divorce can be finalized.

Hughes has stated in court records that her boyfriend is the child's father, and that the judge's decision prevented her from marrying him.

"She has the right to divorce and be free to marry whoever she wants," Sloyer said. "It's about the choice, the fundamental right to choose."

[seriousstan]

9. I believe you are the one with an understanding failure. Try this s..l..o..w..l..y

Shawnna Hughes' husband was convicted of abuse in 2002.

Nobody even came close to asserting that he had a religious or otherwise right to beat his wife. In many States domestic violence is a crime that requires someone to be arrested and many States the State will proceed with charges even if the domestic partner refuses.

Under Washington state law, a husband is presumed to be the father of any child born within 300 days of a divorce. The judge argued that the paternity of the child needs to be determined before a divorce can be finalized.

The Judge is simply following the law. The intent is not to stop the divorce but merely to establish paternity before the fact.

I would hope both men and women can follow the facts, pity they are wasted on you.

[noamnety]

16. "Try this s..l..o..w..l..y"

wow.

perhaps you meant to post in a different forum?

[seriousstan]

18. Nice of you to join in, could you be more substantive?

[noamnety]

19. Nope, no need.

I learned a while ago that when MEN start S.P.E.L.L.I.N.G. things out for us and speaking V.E.R.Y. S.L.O.W.L.Y. so we WOMEN in the WOMEN'S RIGHTS forum can follow along, it's best not to bother with substance.

[SemperEadem]

26. buh bye--to the ignore list you go

what a shame that you're so intimidated that you have to be condescending and nasty in order to regain a sense of personal power you feel you've lost.

[youngdem]

7. No evidence? Bullshit.

Almost every state has some wacko trying to inject more biblical bullshit into our laws. Opposition to abortion is almost EXCLUSIVELY a religious intrusion into public policy, as is the denial of emergency contraception in some states. Denial of reproductive rights codified in law is a religious intrusion into American life and the American judicial system.

There are prisons in Florida in which they are run by religious organizations and the conditions are better. This is religious discrimination.

There are innumerable examples of the encroachment of the radical right in this country on our judiciary and our freedoms. There are some religious leaders that are asking that judges be allowed to consult the Bible as they consult juris prudence.

Perhaps YOU should focus on knowing what the fuck you are talking about before you make an ass out of yourself by asserting such a indefensible position in public and attacking someone. You just expose yourself as a wingnut when you attack the messenger.

[seriousstan]

10. Perhaps you can focus on the issue at hand, WIFE BEATING!!!

Then you wouldn't look like someone addled with ADD.

[bettyellen]

13. so it's not similar that they are FORCING A WOMAN to STAY MARRIED?!?

um, no similarity at all..... if you don;t give a shits about a woman's autonomy. cause if you did, you'd see it;s legally the same f'ing thing, beatings or no. forced marriages. ugh. how about some nice forced child bearing to go with that?

[seriousstan]

14. They are not forcing her to be married any more than they are forcing

her to file the proper paper work and go through the proper legal procedures before being divorced. Establishing paternity, as proper paperwork, is the requirement in the State.

I am sure most States don't allow for same day divorces. Are they forcing marriage?

Child beating???? Nice

[bettyellen]

15. child bearing. as in being forced to carry a baby to term.

another fucked up patriarchal thing that happens in this country. the laws are not fair in this regard to women.
if she is forced to stay in a marriage 5 minutes more than she wants to, it's wrong. paterninty can be sorted out sepertely, it is not a valid reason to keep folks who hate each other living under the same roof- against her will, because he wants it.
that it is a sick paternalistic idea.

[seriousstan]

17. So women should get divorces in 5 minutes:

Why would marriage make you live together?

[bettyellen]

21. they shiuld not have extra restrictions put on them because of biology

or rather, patriarchy.

[bettyellen]

22. and since you decided to be dishonest put words in my mouth, you're not worth talking to

any longer. what i'm getting from you is bullshit at this point.
so :hi:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. The law is *not* forcing anyone to go on living under the same roof.

That's simply not true.

The law demands a certain amount of time before a marriage loose its legal status, but you can for practical purposes end one any time you want, without even filing a divorce suit, simply by walking out of the door.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Judges force people into 12 step programs

You have a choice between them or jail if you commit an alcohol or drug related offense. This continues despite the fact that they are religious in nature and there have been successful lawsuits against the practice.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Qur'an does not sanction beatings

the verse in question says that a man should never beat his wife with anything bigger than a certain type of stick. That stick was used for toothbrushes at the time of the Beloved Prophet--he was using a turn of phrase so that people would realize that beating a woman was not right! If they beat women in Morocco, it is cultural, with imams using religion to reinforce culture, rather than using relgion to correct the ills of a culture.

[Solo_in_MD]

12. The Koran and the Sharia are so misogynistic that they have no place in a civilized country

or court of law.

There have been recent attempts to "retranslate" and "reinterpret" Islam with respect to the rights of women, but they are being treated as apostasy...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Are you Muslim?

Just curious, as I was wondering where you got the idea that attempts at giving women equal rights in Islam was something recent. First of all, I am a Sufi initiate, and my order and most Sufi orders with which I am acquainted do practice equal rights--just ask the head of the Helveti-Jerrahi Order in NYC, who is a shaykha. Senior teachers in orders are treated with equality and respect not only here but in places like Morocco, where the teacher of my teacher goes regularly.

I'm not denying that the conservative sects of Islam are putting down women, but I will contend that it is they who are twisting and misinterpreting Islam. They also persecute Sufis--in Saudi Arabia, for example, they have outlawed Sufi gatherings and practices, and in Iran they have bulldozed down a Sufi shrine, arresting thousands of peaceful demonstrators and torturing and detaining many.

There is a fight on right now in the Muslim world over whether the progressives or the conservatives will win. Rest assured with every anti-Islamic statement made, the more the hand of the conservatives are strenghthened, because they tell Muslims who are undecided that the West hates them, considers them barbarous, and would destroy them--and they naturally gain converts.

[Solo_in_MD]

33. No, I have better sense and believe in the equal treatment of all people, something Islam denies

However, there are lots of those who have personally experienced the full gospel of Islam with regards to women and equal rights for all. Hirsi Ali comes to mind, as does Theo van Gogh, along with the victims of the Jangaweed and the Taliban, and parts of my own family. All actions taken with the blessings of imams and under the cover of fatwas, and in the name of the prophet.

Then there is the small matter of free speech. What about The Satanic Verses? Some cartoons and short films also come to mind. Don't like what is published? Then don't read it, but Muslims have no right to deny it to others or to riot, or to insist that their views and rules should be observed by all. They have no right to threaten and kill those who disagree with them. Other religions deal with sacrilege without riots and priests ordering the deaths of people, why can't Islam? This is a nation that still values its freedoms. Muslims will not take them from me any more than the Xtians or Bushites.

You may think there is a "softer and gentler" Islam, but as the saying goes, "you shall know a tree by the fruit it bears". Islam is clearly a diseased tree. If current fruit include things like hate, destruction, racial prejudice, and misogyny. How wonderfully progressive :sarcasm:

I reject Islam and the Sharia since they are instruments of hatred and destruction against the rights of free people. I actively fight against having any of it gain a foothold in law or even being treated with respect in any public forum. I mock it openly and forcefully tell all who will listen of its infamy and deceit. If that upsets you, plug your ears, because the cacophony grows stronger.

This Dhimmi don't dance...



For those who are taken back by my rant...know this: I have seen the dark side of Islam up close and personal. Its uglier than most of us reared in the US can imagine. I have seen blood shed, lives destroyed and even taken in the name of Islam and with the blessing of imams, and in the name of their prohpet. Some of the people involved were dear to me, and I still grieve for them. Having seen it first hand I can not allow it to spread unopposed. Its an order of magnitude worse that fundie Xtians. Consider this...a follower of Falwell may not rent a gay or unmarried couple an apartment, but the mullahs would have them both stoned to death. The Xtians are being boxed in legally and are fighting a rear guard action at best, while the Muslims are on the offensive, asking for special dispensations. Just because Muslim nations are opposing Bush does not make them friends or allies of the progressive movement. Their goals are diametrically opposed to anything progressive or based on freedom and equality.

I'll get off my soapbox now...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. I'm afraid I think you're wrong.

I'm not an expert on Qu'ranic scholarship, but I think you're wrong for several reasons.

Firstly, in the translations of it I've seen, An-Nisa 34 seems fairly unambiguous. There may be others that disagree (I suspect that there are - I would be surprised if people who *want* the verse not to justify wife-beating wouldn't produce distorted versions even if it did), but I haven't seen one.

I have often heard it said that the Qu'ran refers to not beating a woman with a stick wider that one's thumb, but I can't find out what verse it's in - is this an urban myth, or not?

Secondly, the balance of authority among people who have studied the Qu'ran weighs very heavily indeed on the side that it *does* sanction wife beating.

I'm afraid I suspect that you're deliberately misinterpreting and grasping at straws, in an attempt to square your religion with your Western progressive beliefs, and I think that's a circle that can't be squared - I think the evidence is very conclusive indeed that Mohammed *was* a deeply sexist, to the point of mysogyny, individual, at least by modern standards (whether his contemporaries were better or worse I don't know; it may be that he represents an improvement in women's rights from what existed before, although my guess is that he didn't) and that that is thoroughly enshrined in his teachings.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. And you've been a Muslim how long?

And you've talked to an imam about this? I have.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I question where you've gotten the information to create that opinion. Islam is not a one sect religion. The sects that get the most press are those that are the most conservative. After all, is it really news when a Muslim woman becomes an MD and starts a practice? Does the MSM ever publicize the fact that women are leaders in their mosques?

Think about it this way--do you think Christians would like to be judged along the lines of the Falwells of the world?

No imam or shaykh has ever told me it is a sin to wear pants or cut my hair, but when I was looking for a spiritual home, I had Christian churches tell me that was a sin. Nothing in Islam forbids divorce, but there are Christian churches that do. Islam gave women the rights to own property and to keep their children after a divorce and to get child support--a thousand years or more before women in the West had these rights.

Mohammed (pbuh) treated his wives fairly, did not shun them when they were on their period, and showed them respect--a quick look at the Hadiths would show this. If you call him a woman hater, let's be fair and compare what he allowed his wives with what, say, the Romans did--Roman law allowed families to kill off all but their eldest daughter. Women in Europe at the time were considered the property of their fathers, then their husbands.

The MSM has done a wonderful job demonizing Islam. I wonder sometimes why I even bother trying to dissuade people here, who obviously have their prejudices and wish to keep them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. But the relevant comparison isn't with his contemporaries.

There undoubtedly were (and are) many other cultures which treated women even worse. If you want to claim that Mohammed was relatively enlightened *for his time* then I certainly don't know enough to disagree authoritatively.

However, if you want to cite someone as a moral teacher worth paying attention to today then the standard you have to reach is not merely "better than his contemporaries" but "good, by our standards". And his treatment of and attitudes to women most assuredly weren't that.

The same is true of more or less everyone before 1900. That doesn't really prove anything.

Your comments about comparing all Christians to Falwell miss the point. I've been carefully *not* criticising all Muslims; I'm criticising Mohammed and the Qu'ran. There are a great many Muslims whose views on women's rights have more in common with mine than with his, I think.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Oh come on

That is like saying you aren't criticizing all Christians, just Jesus and the Bible.

How many times have you read the Qur'an? Have you read any of the Hadiths? How many Muslims have you discussed things with, face to face? I'd like to know what Muslim says the Qur'an is no good and the Beloved Prophet was a woman hater.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. Well I have seen it up close and personal

Women degrated, beaten, raped, and their complaints ignored because they were women. I have also helped some escape it. It wasn't pretty.

Sufi may be a "kinder & gentler" Islam, but as you point out, it is guided by the same scriptures.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. Yes, it's exactly like that.

And, for what it's worth, I do so (although "St Paul" rather than "Jesus", in general - Christianity owes far more to the former than the latter, especially most of the bits of the New Testament I disagree with most strongly; it's really quite hard to know what Jesus thought about most things, although I kind of doubt modern liberals would approve of the views of a Jewish mystic from 2000 years ago if they actually knew what they were).

I do not think that either Mohammed or St Paul was a good person, by modern standards, and I do not think that either the Koran or the Bible should be taken as a reliable moral guide.

I think that there are a great many people who are both Christians or Muslims and good people.

I think that most such people are not practicing their religions in the way their founders would have wished, although I'm sure they think they are.

I've never read the Qu'ran end to end, but I've skimmed bits of it, and read a few (a very few) Hadiths; enough to know that there's a lot wrong in it. One doesn't have to look at every plank of a ship to see that it's not sea-worthy - if you find some leaks, it's still going to sink, even if much of it is sound.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. IIRC subsequently the case was pulled from the judge in question and is going to be reheard

*someone* in German justice has some common sense.

[SemperEadem]

8. they have to wait two more months to file the papers

in the meantime, what protection order has ever protected a woman from a man bent on killing her? The ruling pretty much told the men who are of the same mind as this woman's husband that it's ok to beat/kill your wife for honor because German law puts their religion before their own law.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. She should get the hell out of Germany and to the US, possibly Texas

There she could get a firearm and do what the law would not if he came after her. Harsh remedy, but I have ZERO TOLERANCE for domestic violence, Sharia approved or otherwise.

German family law is very different than US law. They do not recognize US child custody orders and has shown give great deference to the culture/nationality of the people involved, even when it means doing a grave injustice.

[SemperEadem]

28. she may not have any interest in leaving Germany and coming to the US

where hatred for Muslims is hardly masked. She'd go from one abusive environment to another and not know a soul here or speak the language.

What would her getting a fire arm prove? Do what the law would not do? The DA would try her for premeditated murder and lock her up despite the domestic violence history--and the first tune they'd be singing is "she took the law into her hands; she decided to be his executioner; she played God".

[Solo_in_MD]

31. We envision different scenarios

My presumption was that if her husband followed her to the US and continued to harrass and force his way in to her residence, she could legally defend herself effecitvly in Texas, which she can not do in Germany due to their draconian gun laws. Since it would be in the US where the Sharia is quite properly ignored by US courts and in Texas with strong Castle/Stand your ground laws, she would not be prosecuted.

Due to events during my upbringing, I have no problem with an abused spouse killing the estranged spouse if they are forcing enty to the former's residence. The police can not be everywhere and have no duty to defend a particular person, so self help is always going to be the best way.

[Triana]

27. Judge Datz-Winter MUST be disbarred for supporting Human Rights Abuses...

...because that's what that IS and that's what she's done.

[Warpy]

32. What a serious case for the use of the ignore function

this thread is. Seriously.

And yes, this judge is wrong. Any judge who puts any religious belief over the letter of the law is wrong.

An investigation to confirm the woman's story might be in order (neighbors are good at remembering thumps and screams). A restraining order and an expedited divorce might have been in order, too. The Koran was not.

Unfortunately, none of this will stop the husband from killing her if he is violent towards his "property." Neither would a drive through divorce.

[SemperEadem]

35. yup... I have new additions to my list

re: investigating her story: Why do you consider her to be a liar whose case needs re-investigating?

Neighbors are also good at not wanting to get invovled--it's called the 'bystander syndrome'. IF neighbors could be counted on to care, Kitty Genovese and Sandra Zahler wouldn't have been allowed to die in the hallway of the same apartment building ten years apart.

[Warpy]

38. The investigations confirm the story and form a legal basis

for expediting the divorce. I didn't call her a liar, you did.

Neighbors sometimes do nothing, sometimes they're quite willing to help. Listening to a neighbor get battered is not fun. Been there, done that, called the cops.