Sexism as being viewed primarily as a sex object

[Nikia]

There have been various events that have made me think about this topic and I don't think that it is just an issue because I live in a backwards place.
Anytime, there is a discussion on strip clubs, porn, or even women's clothing, the discussion seems to revert towards that women should have the right to exhibit their sexuality and that to say otherwise is reverting to Taliban practices. Shouldn't we have the right not to be sex objections though too?
Some people say that it is human nature for heterosexuals to view the opposite sex as sex objects, that it is never going to stop, that it is something we have to accept. Is it so hard though, except perhaps in the hook up context though, to see people as people, not as bodies? In some situations, it is entirely inappropriate. Does anyone want to be viewed as a sex object if they are running for political office, if they are interviewing for a job (except perhaps in the entertainment industry), if they are giving a speech on an important issue, or if they are displaying other non sexual, appearance related talents?
I have encountered a few idiots who clearly do view women only as sex objects, but do most men have this tendency? Do most women see themselves in realtionship to men primarily as sex objects? Will this attitude prevent true equality, including equality in the workplace and political power? What can we do to encourage all people to see each other as people regardless of gender?

[politicat]

1. I think we have the right to display ourselves as we see fit.

There are times I want to be seen as a sex object - when I lost 30 pounds and was very proud of myself, I wanted to be seen as sexy and attractive. But that doesn't mean I wanted to be assaulted or raped for it.

There are also times when I don't want to be seen as a sex object - like right now, when I have a head cold and feel like hell.

So for me, it's my decision how I want to be viewed. There's no way I'd be going out in a short skirt and Fme heels, so the chances of my being taken for a sex object while I'm roaming the aisles at Walgreens looking for something to make me feel better is pretty small.

Part of it is about dress, and self-presentation. If you don't want to be seen as a sex object, don't dress like one. Wear the more conservative suit, tone the makeup down, and leave the 6 in platform heels in the closet for role playing. Realistically, it's about manners and knowing what's appropriate for the setting. (One of the reasons I'm so disgusted with the Bush spawn is their congenital inability to behave and dress appropriately for the positions they're in.)

I know that this may sound old-fashioned, but it seems to be common sense. If you want to be treated like a competent human being, then act like one. Dress the part, just like an actor or actress does for a role. Behave appropriately. And if you don't know what's appropriate, then find an expert and learn.

But maybe I'm being too sensible...

("You" is used instead of the more formal "one" because I forgot. It's not personal, okay? And forgive the tone. I have a cold....)

Pcat

[McKenzie]

5. interesting point about what is attractive here

I find provocative dressing (whatever that might be) a complete turn-off, in the same way that I find "babes" completely unappealing. A woman dressed soberly is far more attractive than a "babe" in a mini skirt. Moreover, I find most women attractive unless they are "babes". (bloody awful term) irrespecive of shape or size. Maybe that's because I regard women as attractive for what they are rather than what they look like. Most women that I like would be regarded as "Plain Janes" by the Neanderthal mob but I know these women as people and that is the aphrodisiac. Give me real women every time; appearance is secondary.

[politicat]

8. From first glance? Good for you!

Go find someone to breed with and keep those genes happy!! :P

Thanks, says me, a most of the time plain Jane.

Pcat

[wildeyed]

2. I think it is fine to view others as sex objects and to be viewed as such

as long as there is acknowledgment of one's complete personhood. It is being viewed solely as an object that is depressing. Although it is less of a problem for me these days than it was say 10 or 15 years ago. I actually like to be looked at as long as I feel it is being done in a respectful and appropriate manner.

In a professional situation, it is inappropriate to discuss co-workers sex appeal. I believe it is referred to as sexual harassment.

My observation, nearly all men like to look, but not all men look in a disrespectful or inappropriate manner. Those who are inappropriate should be held accountable for their actions, either personally or through the courts.

[McKenzie]

3. this is a highly complex issue

and impossible to answer in a short post. Even assuming I'd get the facts straight which I probably wouldn't.

Biological imperative dictates certain biological impulses. I know there is an argument that says we should be able to control them but how can one assume intellectual control over the primary urge to perpetuate the species? It probably sounds like male-behaviour (yes, "behaviour' is the original spelling) apologism but it is equally correct when viewed in a biological context. People do not sit down and coldy discuss the perpetuation of the species...it's rather more spontaneous and sweaty than clinical debate. Were it not for lust we would be extinct.

None of the above should be interpreted as an argument in defence of male behaviour but it does illustrate the dilemma. I, as a male, am biologically programmmed to lust after the female of the species. I CANNOT HELP IT. As an aside, I know some of my gay female friends lust after same sex partners...interesting issue there, women lusting after women...does that render lesbians as unacceptably sexist?

I feel strongly for women reduced to object status. It disgusts me because of the disdain that is a corollary to such objectification. That notwithstanding, how does one ignore the biological imperative? Simone de Beavouir had a nice take on this...she posited that there is a female hard-on. Perhaps it's just that the power structure of society does not allow women to lust in the same way as men. My own experience suggests that women are equally capable of viewing men as sex objects as men are capable of viewing women as sex objects.

Trouble with sex is that it tugs at some really deep strings. Sometimes we shy away from these scary monsters and make up intellectual arguments to avoid confronting some scary monsters. In short, we like sex and it is an instinctive, rather than an intellectual, thing. Whether we allow it to reduce women to objects is a rhetorical question; we shouldn't. And I know damned well that many of my female friends talk about men as sex objects.

on edit: speling

[fugue]

4. I suspect this is part of the homophobia of straight men

In my experience, the most homophobic straight men are also those who tend to view women as sexual objects. My hunch is that the two are related: they don't want to be treated as they treat their sexual partners, hence their fear of gay men.

Just a pet theory of mine, though.

[Political_Junkie]

6. Yes folks, we have a winner!

Absolutely agree with you on that! :thumbsup:

[McKenzie]

7. very interesting point here about domination

quite a lot of men seem to like being humiliated. (just look for dominatrixes on the net for starters) Hmmm...I wonder what that tells us? Is it because the power structure of mainstream relationships doesn't allow for what might well be a natural form of sexual fulfillment? In effect, men are supposed to be dominant given the widespread view that men should be dominant. Maybe their desire is to sometimes be subordinated to the female but they can't get that in a conventional relationship because they can't admit that is what they want given the conventional wisdom. Men are suposed to be men and anything else is contrary to accepted wisdom (or dumbness lol)

This interests me greatly. I wonder why submission to females is often an element in male sexual fulfillment? Difficult subject because, as I said in my original response, we are into spooky territory where we are inclined to lie, or to fudge the issue at best.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. The desire for domination may explain the frustrating situation in which

one (a fine specimen of humanity, of course!) is attracted to a seemingly suitable person of the opposite sex, but said person of the opposite sex seems to be incapable of loving anyone who doesn't beat him/her up, either physically or emotionally.

Some DU men have encountered this type of woman and concluded in their adolescent way that "all women want to be treated like crap." But that's simply nonsense. No emotionally healthy person wants to be treated like crap, and besides, it's not an exclusively female trait.

When I was in college, living in an all-women's dormitory with two phones per floor (this was back when hippies and dinosaurs roamed the earth), we all remarked on the fact that our bitchiest, most cynical, cruelist neighbors got all the phone calls from men, while the rest of us spent our Saturday nights eating popcorn in front of the TV. These young femmes fatales used to come back from dates boasting about mean they'd been.

Even now, I see both men and women married to unfaithful, emotionally unstable mates who make unreasonable demands on them and have them under some sort of spell in which those unreasonable demands seem like the only alternative. I listen to the excuses that they make for their spouse, and I ask, "Couldn't you have done thus and so?" And they look startled and say, "I never thought of that."

I don't know what makes a person want to be dominated. As one who had to struggle to escape from a domineering mother and grandmother, I'm overly sensitive to this, and some of my early problems with relationships came from fear of being under someone else's control. However, I have relatives whose parents were even more domineering than mine, and they never escaped, even though they had the financial resources to do so. Seeing that they never escaped far enough to get into a serious relationship, I'm not sure that having a really domineering set of parents is the reason for desiring to be dominated in a relationship.

[WildClarySage]

9. A few thoughts on this:

1. There is nothing wrong with viewing people in a sexual way. It's human nature. There is something wrong with treating people as if their sexuality is their sole value. There is nothing inherently wrong with women being seen as sex objects. There is something wrong with treating women as sex objects in our culture where female power is usually limited to a sexual role. An attractive women is worth more than an unattractive one, which is why wealthy men often marry 'trophy wives.' Why is it there are very few unattractive leading role actresses in Hollywood? The last time Kathy Bates was a leading lady, she was a psychopathic kidnapper who took a crack at James Caan's ankles with a hammer. And there's nothing wrong with men or women using their sexual or attraction power. It's only wrong if its used to harm someone else or if it's that person's only vehicle for power.

2. The harm in this standard of limiting access of power for women is that it sets it's own limitations. We are at an all time high in social power- yet women are still valued for their appearances above their contributions. Think of the women who have made it- and nearly all of them are conventionally sexually attractive. The exceptions to the rule come too easily to mind to be anything but proof of this. Would be equitable if this were true for men, but there have always been and will always be powerful and unattractive men. Isn't it interesting that the average model's dress size has decreased proportionally with the increase in women's rights? Attractive, powerful women are at an all time low weight-wise. The upshot of this is that it's even more difficult to be powerful when you're constantly being conditioned to be physically smaller. Men should be very concerned about outlets for power for women because of the implication- are women marrying men for love or for financial security?

3. Women who achieve power without using sex or being attractive are accused of: bitchiness, lesbianism, PMS suffering, witchcraft, or frigid. Think of how Disney Villanesses are portrayed. Fat, or very skinny, "ugly beyond all reason", whose parents must have hated them given their names- Cruella, Ursula, Maleficent, Medusa, etc. All are vastly unattractive, with the exception of the Wicked Queen, whose true vice was vanity.

4. As a former advocate for rape victims, I'm disgusted when I hear people say "She was asking for it in that miniskirt" or "I never wear slutty clothes at night (or in a bar... etc)" By taking the focus off the actual cause of the crime (someone made the decision to harm another) the blame goes to the victim, which also relays the message that sexuality as power is unnatural and will be corrected. We don't say a man dressed in a nice suit walking a deserted street or a 'bad' neighborhood was asking to be mugged. We never say a jaywalker deserved to get hit. The inconsistency of the messages- sex is power vs. we can hurt you with sex and blame you if you try to exercise your power by wearing something sexy- is also entirely inaccurate. Wearing provocative clothes can mean lots of things to lots of women. It doesn't ever mean "Someone else has the right to assault me."

[Champ]

11. You don't have to accept it

You're a strong woman with a unique personality just like everyone else, you live and breath the same air and experience the same emotions. I know you mean even as a male. It drives me crazy when I meet a nice woman with a great personality and a sense of humor then a male friend would comment on how he would like to (I'm sure you know where this is heading) without mentioning things I have noticed "Gee man, she was really nice." or "She seemed like an intelligent, smart, and funny person to me." etc. I have encountered a few idiots who clearly do view women only as sex objects, but do most men have this tendency? There are actually many, I don't know if it is on the more or less side but there are alot of men who can't look past the physical attributes to discover a great PERSON.

I'm not sure what we can do about it except get them while they're young, part of who someone is today is the things they picked up as a child. It is very important that we raise our children to become productive members of society that treats others with the respect he or she deserves. I don't look at women like that because I was raised by a solo mom from age 3. I seen the world through her eyes from walking down the street with my mom and I've heard honks and whistles on a consistent basis to a harrasement suit at the workplace. I realize what kind of a world it is out there for a woman and what they have to put up with to succeed in this life. I'm sorry that so many men doesn't see what a woman has to offer as a person but instead sees what a woman has to offer as to what they can do for them sexually. Unfortanately there is WAY too much hate, racism, sexism, ignorance, etc in the world and I sometimes wonder if it is even possible to live in a world without any of it. We've taken some major steps in the right direction regarding those things but we still have a long ways to go. I will support women's rights as well as all civil rights in an effort to make things truley equal for everyone. Never give in or accept the fact that we live in a society where looking at women as sex objects is not only accepted but encouraged(by television, ads, magazines, etc). Keep on voicing your opinion and fighting until things are how they should be, you're not alone in this battle as I feel much the same way you do.

[Nikia]

12. On a related note

I apologize for not responding to posts within this thread. You all had good points and I am still upset about some personal situations.
What I wanted to comment on was the discussion in the lounge, which turned into a flamewar, on whether or not the girl in the ad was really plus size or not.
An unfortunate side effect of women being viewed primarily as sex objects by many or at least that perception is that many women are overly sensitive and insecure about their weight and appearance. They are undervalued if they are not thin or attractive enough. On the other side of things, I think that young women who do not view themselves as attractive or thin enough are suspeptible to being taken advantage of sexually, having sex not for pleasure, but to prove that they are attractive enough to be alive. Then there are the issues of eating disorders and cosmetic surgery. How many men, especially who are average looking, feel bad about themselves for their appearance? How many spend a lot of time and effort on it? How many have sex or get into a relationship for the sole purpose of proving that they are attractive? Doesn't this obseesion give women a disadvantage? If being a sex object is an advantage in so many things though, perhaps it isn't irrational, until she realizes that she really is only a sex onject. Alright, I'll stop right there.