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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 08:48 PM
Original message
Scientists reach a surprising conclusion about black holes

Which came first: black holes or galaxies? Researchers have wondered for years, and now they think they have an answer.
By John Johnson Jr.
2:44 PM PST, January 7, 2009
Astronomers think they have finally solved the cosmic chicken-and-egg problem of what came first -- the giant black holes lying at the center of many big galaxies or the galaxies that feed them?

The answer: the black holes.

The finding, which surprised even the scientists involved, implies that black holes grow the galaxies around them, like a garden springing from a single seed or a man growing his suit of clothes.

The problem with that idea, according to the scientific team who presented the findings at the American Astronomical Society meeting in Long Beach today, is that nobody has yet come up with an explanation for how a black hole could grow a galaxy.

"That is hard to imagine," said Chris Carilli, of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory.

more:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-na-black-holes8-2009jan08,0,3006703.story
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. completely non-scientific response to this:
The holes are just openings in in the end of those "strings" in the string theory.. which aren't strings, they're a series of tubes between the myriad infinite parallel universes...The big bang was just a bunch of stuff coming out of a really big tube

And it's not just light that can't "escape" from a black hole.. It's just stuff getting sucked into a smaller (but still really big) tube.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's kinda what I've always thought.
I like the chicken and egg thing.
Black holes are the egg, and galaxies/matter are the chickens...
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'll buy that. nt
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Uncle Ted would be proud!
:)

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WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Is that like a wormhole?
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didact Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Yes...galaxies are "growing" around BHs, but spewing out of BHs
I've begun to like this theory more and more...here's a nice video: Parallel Universe(s) - Amazing - Michio Kaku


http://www.wimp.com/bigtheory/

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. hmmm, dark matter? n/t
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Mind-blowing facts about black holes--
Because their gravity is so massive, as you approach a black hole, time for you passes normally. But your time relative to earth time slows down to near infinity.

In other words, as you approach the event horizon in which you could never cross back out of the black hole, your time will be extremely slow compared to earth time. A minute for you would be a century on earth. By the time you actually crossed the event horizon, the galaxy around you would have passed into eternity . . . an infinite length of time.
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chucktaylor Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You should add, as viewed from outside the effects of the black hole.
In your spaceship you would be rather quickly ripped apart, but from a safe distance observer, you will never reach the event horizon.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. well riddle me this then
since we know black holes evaporate, is it possible if the black hole were small enough that you'd take so long that the hole would evaporate before you were finished being sucked in?! :P

I know the answer just kidding.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. If it takes an old collapsing star to form a black hole, how can the black hole have
preceded the stars around it?

Are we outside of the Universe, when we imagine the Universe, or are we the Universe imagining itself?

It would seem logical--according to our understanding of the development of biological life--to believe that we are part of the Universe, and that every faculty we possess, including thought and imagination, are part of the Universe. No part of us, including our thought, stands outside of the Universe. What then are we imagining when we imagine the Universe?

Presuming that we view the Universe much like we view Earth and its other critters--studying the Earth, other critters and ourselves scientifically, out of curiosity, and mythologizing as well--imagining, creating--the opposition between us and that which we observe, or use as an imaginative tool, seems definitive with secure boundaries. We take a blood sample from a chimpanzee and analyze it under a microscope and with other instruments, discovering, among things, that our DNA is very, very similar--something we also intuit in forming relationships with chimps (they are very like us)--or we focus a telescope or other instrument on the stars, and do the same--relate what is "out there" to ourselves, and our current understanding of things (gravity, distance, time), and discover things like black holes and weird properties of galaxies (the outside spinning at the same rate as the inside), and, indeed, not so long ago--1960s--discovered that there are other galaxies, jillions and jillions of them at unimaginable distances, all racing away from us at unimaginable speeds (or so we think). Prior to the 1960s, no one knew that, and I don't think anyone even guessed it--that there are unimaginable numbers of other galaxies, also filled with hundreds of millions of stars.

But something is wrong this, and I think it is scale. We are so very, very, very, VERY small. IT--the Cosmos-- is so very, very, very, umpteen magnitudes of VERY LARGE. How is it possible for our teeny tiny brains to encompass THAT, or gain even a remotely accurate notion of what it is and how it works. Think of an ant--if it had a brain like ours--in relationship to the Sun, or even to the earth. Can that small a brain, even if it is conscious, grasp that large a phenomenon? What can it observe? What can it intuit? What can it understand?

So, when human scientists posit, confirm, discover and finally see a black hole, and lay out its bizarre workings, according to what we know and can imagine here on Earth, and move from a theory that a sun collapses into a small superdense object that pulls other objects towards it--in a swirl, a galaxy--and ultimately eats everything up, including light, to a theory that a black hole precedes any such star and somehow creates the galaxy around itself, we should think of the sentient ant and imagine its theories about the Sun, from its small perspective, and how wrong it might be. Granting it cleverness, it could develop useful theories--even sundials and other measuring instruments--but if it was stuck for generations on a particular mountainside, it might never see the moon. Indeed, it might never see the Sun, and only be able to imply a source of heat and light. It is too small. Its instruments are too small. And its brain is too small. It cannot see, and likely cannot really understand, what, to us, is obvious (if we put our minds to it) because we can see it.

What can't we see of the distant Universe? What can't we see even in our own galaxy? What is beyond our instruments, and possibly beyond our brains, but that vastly influences us nevertheless, as the unseen and unseeable Sun would influence an ant?

We are looking too far, perhaps. Or what we think is very far is actually very close. We are perhaps in a loop of thought, or a loop of time, just as we imagine this loop of gravity that we call a "black hole." Gravity created by matter. Gravity creating matter. Which is it? It is too far and too big and too close, all at the same time. Is it within us? Are our brains, which are of the Universe, generating this black hole as we observe it, or as we think we are observing it? Is our ability to imagine no black hole, and no galaxy, and then...black hole...and then galaxy...a part of that very remote process?

When we think of the ant--a critter of absolutely no consequence (it would seem) to that gigantic entity, the Sun--trying to posit a sun, from the effects of heat and light, then we know where we stand, anyway. We are very, very, VERY small, in relationship to Everything Else, which we have only recently realized exists at all. We live always in the shadow of the mountain that prevents us from seeing the source of the heat and the light. We have just invented a sort of thermometer, to confirm our thesis that the trees generate the heat and light. And some other ant has just arrived, from miles away, after generation upon generation has slowly migrated over the top of the mountain, to tell us tales of an immense burning disc in the sky.

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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Just before I go to bed, I would like to say that no, it does not take an old star
to make a black hole. Only the 'small' black holes (from several to about sixty solar masses) are made from supernovae cores larger than the degeneracy pressure limit.

The big ones in the center of the galaxies are just where there was enough 'stuff' to make one. Having, say, six million protostars fall together would make something like the one at the center of the milky way, for example.

You just need stuff, basically.
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. The answer to chicken or egg first question?
It depends on which way that you are coming from.

I have pondered sometimes whether life or our notion of intelligence isn't perceiving time flowing back wards. Life is organizing chaos into order against the natural flow toward chaos: the second law of thermodynamics.

Could creation be flowing out of black holes, and our little reverse islands of consciousness in the stream of time perceive this ass back wards?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Actually, there is a hypothesis about how black holes form galaxies.
Star formation is the result of shock-waves created by pre-stellar matter falling into the hole. The process is self-limiting, as the hole eventually clears the space around it.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Quasars are the oldest and most distant objects in the universe...

which lie at galactic centers. Is it logical to assume that most galaxies started out as quasars shortly after the Big Bang? I think I saw a show once about the formation of galaxies and it proposed that the black holes, when they first form, suck all the surrounding matter in and then eject it in powerful streams characteristic of quasars. After this nearby material is consumed, the remainder goes into orbit around the massive black hole.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That sounds like basically the same kind of model I read about.
I don't recall much more about it. I think it was in SciAm.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Ironically, I think I saw this on the History Channel...
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 03:25 PM by AntiFascist
the theory, as I recall, proposes that all matter in the universe started out as "dark matter" of non-uniform hydrogen gas (which would explain why there is so much dark matter between galaxies). The more concentrated areas began drawing together due to gravitational forces forming an accretion disk. More and more matter is drawn together until it forms a black hole, consuming nearby material and creating a quasar. The material in the surrounding disk collides and draws together forming protostars, which produces a fusion reaction that creates helium and all of the other heavier elements. The fact that there is so much hydrogen in the universe explains how a galactic black hole can "create" the galaxy around it.
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