Kaiser Rejects Neck Manipulation

[HuckleB]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6681

"Despite quackademia, anti-vaccine propaganda, and other discouraging trends, the news is not all bad. A major HMO has taken a decisive action in support of science-based medicine.

Kaiser Permanente Mid Atlantic States and Mid-Atlantic Permanente Group recently announced the elimination of neck manipulation from their chiropractic coverage. The revised policy states,

"Given the paucity of data related to beneficial effects of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine and the real potential for catastrophic adverse events, it was decided to exclude chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine from coverage."

Their decision was applauded by some but was predictably attacked by chiropractors.

...

Kaiser made a good, science-based decision that will protect patients and also save money. They are to be commended. I hope they will stick to their guns and withstand the pressure that will be exerted against them by non-science-based chiropractors and health consumers. I hope other insurance and health care organizations will follow suit. In another action earlier this year, Saskatchewan deleted chiropractic subsidies from its health budget to save $10 million.

..."


------------------------------------------


Seems like a sensible move. I suppose the response to this will be "but... BiG PHarMA! ... red herring ... anti-mental health screed ... ad hominem ... anecdote ... BIG PHARMA!!! ... open your narrow Mind ... red herring ... red herring ... BIG pharmA!!! !!! !!!! ... ad hominem ... Can I have the anchovies on the side? ... anecdote ... vitamin D on the hour, every hour replaces Chiropractic, anyway ... BIGGER PHarmAAAAA!!! ... ad hominem ... Wait! Can I change my order? ... Keyser Söze rocks! ... anecdote ... red herring ... Can I still order from the happy hour menu? ... Pot Saves! ... ad hominem ... Kaiser was supposed to amputate my left big toe, but they took my right little toe ... anecdote ... free Reiki for all! ... Wait, just give me the house IPA, thanks."

:hi:

[Windy]

1. I'm glad. Chiropractors are not doctors and should be regulated accordingly

My mother had breast cancer when she was 54. All her tests post treatment were clear, i.e., repeat mammograms and blood tests. Well, she started to have back pain and thought it was from sitting at her desk all day coupled with her age, so she saw a chiropractor. He x-rayed her and told her that she simply had a slightly bulging disco and began performing manipulations. After about 6 weeks of treatment she didn't feel that she was getting any better so she went to her GP. She brought the x-rays that that the chiropractor took. The physician immediately spotted abnormalities in her spinal cord on the films that were 6 weeks old! As it turns out, her breast cancer had returned in her spinal cord. By the time it was found, they couldn't do anything more than palliative care. She died within 6 weeks. Her oncologist told her that the manipulations may have made things worse, not to mention the fact that the chiropractor didn't know what the hell he was looking at and didn't put two and two together with regard to my mother's past breast cancer and bone mets.

[Matariki]

4. Chiropractors ARE Doctors.

What are you talking about?

[Windy]

7. they are NOT medical doctors. You only need 90 credit hours in any subject to get into chiro school

Physical therapists have more training. They can be dangerous if they diagnose and treat outside of their area

[Matariki]

16. I'd like to see a link for your claim. I don't believe you're correct.

My chiropractor is an MD.

http://www.acatoday.org/content_css.cfm?CID=746

Educational requirements for doctors of chiropractic are among the most stringent of any of the health care professions.

The typical applicant at a chiropractic college has already acquired nearly four years of pre-medical undergraduate college education, including courses in biology, inorganic and organic chemistry, physics, psychology and related lab work. Once accepted into an accredited chiropractic college, the requirements become even more demanding — four to five academic years of professional study are the standard. Because of the hands-on nature of chiropractic, and the intricate adjusting techniques, a significant portion of time is spent in clinical training.

Doctors of chiropractic — who are licensed to practice in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and in many nations around the world — undergo a rigorous education in the healing sciences, similar to that of medical doctors. In some areas, such as anatomy, physiology, rehabilitation, nutrition and public health, they receive more intensive education than their MD counterparts.

Like other primary health care doctors, chiropractic students spend a significant portion of their curriculum studying clinical subjects related to evaluating and caring for patients. Typically, as part of their professional training, they must complete a minimum of a one-year clinical-based program dealing with actual patient care. In total, the curriculum includes a minimum of 4,200 hours of classroom, laboratory and clinical experience. The course of study is approved by an accrediting agency which is fully recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. This has been the case for more than 25 years.

This extensive education prepares doctors of chiropractic to diagnose health care problems, treat the problems when they are within their scope of practice and refer patients to other health care practitioners when appropriate.

[Windy]

23. Life Chiropractic admission requirements

You can have a bachelors degree, but if you don't, you can still get in.... Only 6 credit hours of biology is required.... 12 cr of chemistry and 6 cr of physics...

Look at any pre-med program... There is a lot more science required...and oh by the way.. you have to pass the MCAT to insure that you have an aptitude for science and reasoning before you can get into medical school!!!

Not to mention, 4 years of med school and 2 or more years of residency depending upon whether or not you specialize.

http://www.life.edu/Chiropractic_College_Requirements

[Odin2005]

19. Chiros are to doctors what astrologers are to astrophysicists.

[customerserviceguy]

27. Couldn't have said it better!

You get the analogy prize tonight, in my book!

[Qanisqineq]

2. chiropractic care gave me my life back

I was in an accident. I had a concussion but for weeks afterward I had horrible headaches. The doctors did a CAT scan. Nothing. A few weeks later they did a spinal tap. Nothing. I was in and out of the hospital with headaches that made me scream. I was 16 years old. I was sent home and told that there was nothing wrong. I spent the next few weeks lying in my bedroom, unable to move out of one position. I could not tolerate light or sound. My mom had to carry me to the bathroom. I could not eat because that required moving. If I moved I screamed and vomited from pain. Pain killers did little to nothing.

Finally someone suggested chiropractic care. My mom was able to get me an appointment the next day in a town an hour away. I laid in the only position I could in the backseat under a blanket to block as much light as possible. I laid in the car until the doctor had a room open to put me in. The chiropractor and my mom had to carry me into the clinic. They shut off all the lights and spoke in whispers. I could stand for only a few seconds for the X-rays before I would start to collapse. It turns out I had whiplash. I had neck manipulation twice that day. Then twice again the next day -- morning and afternoon. Then once the following day. I went daily for one week and weekly for a month. I was able so stand by the second day. By the end of the first week I could return to school.

It isn't all bunk.

[HuckleB]

6. Ah, yes, the anecdote.

You might find this to be of interest:

Neck Manipulation: Risk vs. Benefit
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1037

[Matariki]

10. Tossing about the word 'anecdote' doesn't prove your point btw

[HuckleB]

14. An anecdote is what it is.

Are you saying it's something else?

:rofl:

PS...

Science and Chiropractic
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59#more-59

[Qanisqineq]

12. The risk was worth it for me

[HuckleB]

15. That's your belief.

[Qanisqineq]

18. you weren't there

You don't know what I went through or how many times I was in the hospital with doctors unable to do anything.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I put in my two cents about how it helped me yet you somehow seem to know better. Too bad you weren't there twenty years ago to diagnose and treat me.

[HuckleB]

20. You have your belief.

Apparently my acknowledging that means I have a chip on my shoulder.

If that's what you need to believe to get you through the night, so be it.

On the other hand...

A Budget of Anecdotes
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=218

"...


6) Anecdotes used as an example to prove an unproven concept

This would be an example of the justly derided anecdotal evidence, and differs from the other, perhaps more benign, forms of anecdotes.

Homeopathy does work, here is the proof: I gave a patient with joint pain a homeopathic concoction and the patient improved. The knee pain went away. Proof of the efficacy is in the successful intervention.

It is here that the motto “the plural of anecdote is anecdotes not data” is most applicable. It is whether the anecdote is being used to prove a concept, or used as an example of a proven concept is where practitioners of CAM and real medicine differ, both on how the anecdote should be used and the validity of the anecdotes use.

It is the use of anecdotes as a proof of concept upon which the basis of much of CAM rests, and is the most unreliable use of anecdotes. Given the vagaries of human memory, the difficulty in proving causality, and the lack of biologic and physical possibility of most CAM interventions, using anecdotes as proof of CAM effectiveness is a particularly problematic use of anecdotes. Even if Dr. Weil tarts them up by calling them uncontrolled clinical observations.

..."

[Matariki]

21. Condescension without any altitude.

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

22. And ad hominem number two hits.

:rofl:

On edit...

PS: The Role of Anecdotes in Science-Based Medicine -- http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=33

[Matariki]

24. "If that's what you need to believe to get you through the night"

[HuckleB]

25. Yup.

That was my response to her condescending comment that I supposedly had a chip on my shoulder.

Whoops! Your forgot to point that one out.

:rofl:

But, by all means, continue to post ad hominem goofiness. It's very entertaining!

[Matariki]

3. "science based" HA! - they're idiots.

My monthly chiropractor appointment beats pharmaceuticals by a long shot. They're idiots because those appointments are both effective and a LOT cheaper than popping pills. Oh and there's none of the arm's length list of side effects that Doctors rarely mention about the pharmaceuticals the so glibly prescribe.

[HuckleB]

5. Do you think your anecdote is science based?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4068

[Matariki]

8. I never claimed it was. What people lovingly call "science based" -

is usually a load of personal prejudice or financially motivated, as for example the pharmaceutical industry.

As far as my personal experience goes, chiropractors have worked. That's what matters to me.

[HuckleB]

11. Thank you for providing the necessary ad hominem response.

:rofl:

[tiptoe]

34. "Science-based medicine" == "Selective-science for Med/Pharm Industry-interest Conclusions" nt

[HuckleB]

35. Hogwash.

[kratos12]

9. An insurance company excluding a benefit?

LOL, if anyone is using a paucity of facts it's Kaiser in an attempt to get out of paying for a service that has been covered by carriers for 30 years or so.

The ACA is preparing a suit, they will go to court, they will win and Kaiser will restore the benefit.

End of story.

[HuckleB]

13. So you think it makes sense to pay for baseless therapies?

The length of time something has been used has nothing to do with its effectiveness or lack thereof.

Science and Chiropractic
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59#more-59

[HuckleB]

26. PS: Adverse Effects of Chiropractic

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=509

[Odin2005]

17. What do they call a failed Physical Therapist? A Chiropractor.

The Chiro a friend of mine went to made her headaches worse and tried to push homeopathic magic potions on her.

[MineralMan]

28. This is very good news. My wife had neck problems for several years,

before we were together and went to a series of chiropractors, who helped her not at all. Not one suggested that she consult a neurosurgeon. Not one. Well, I suggested that she do just that. After a fusion of C3-4&5, her problems were completely solved. Today, some 12 years later, she is pain free and is doing great. Before, she could hardly sit in a chair.

I have no doubt that chiropractic can help some people with some things, but the ones she saw did nothing that helped her, but they certainly told her that she had to go through twice-weekly adjustments. The only adjustment was to her checkbook.

[laconicsax]

29. One clue it's a racket is the constant need for continued visits.

Chiropractors have a tendency to never declare a patient medically stationary. It's always something else or "maintenance."

I had Bell's Palsy years ago and saw a chiropractor for it. The adjustments seemed to clear things up pretty quickly, but once the palsy was gone, I was advised to keep coming in to "make sure things were holding."

Both my parents had similar experiences--they'd go for one issue and be told for years that they needed to keep coming in after the original problem had been long gone.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Good call...Its based on false concepts and provides nothing not already available via a PT

[loudsue]

31. This post was obviously intended as a fight-starting post.

Not just controversial...but intentionally trying to create trouble.

I hope the mods lock and dump the thread.

[HuckleB]

32. Nope.

[BuddhaGirl]

33. yeah, seems to be the m.o. these days

there is more to life, yanno? :eyes:

[trotsky]

36. Those darn facts are out to get ya!

Shoot a pickle!