Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Did 'Regular' Flu Shot Up Risks for H1N1 Flu?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Health Donate to DU
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 01:26 PM
Original message
Did 'Regular' Flu Shot Up Risks for H1N1 Flu?
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/637735.html

The traditional seasonal flu vaccine may have increased the risk of infection with pandemic H1N1 swine flu, according to the results of four new studies by Canadian researchers.

In one study, the researchers used an ongoing sentinel monitoring system to assess the frequency of prior vaccination with the seasonal flu vaccine in people diagnosed with H1N1 swine flu in 2009 compared to people without swine flu. The researchers found that seasonal flu vaccination was associated with a 68 percent increased risk of getting swine flu.

The other three studies included additional case-control investigations in Ontario and Quebec, as well as a transmission study in 47 Quebec households that were hit with swine flu. In these studies, the researchers found that seasonal flu vaccination was associated with a 1.4- to 5.0-times greater risk of having swine flu.

The studies, published April 6 in the online journal PLoS Medicine, don't show whether there is a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent swine flu illness, or whether the association was possibly due to a common factor among the people in the study, said principal investigator Danuta Skowronski, of the British Columbia Center for Disease Control in Vancouver, and colleagues.

However, the findings may raise questions about the biological interactions between pre-existing and new pandemic influenza strains.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. You forgot to leave this part out.
The studies, published April 6 in the online journal PLoS Medicine, don't show whether there is a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent swine flu illness, or whether the association was possibly due to a common factor among the people in the study, said principal investigator Danuta Skowronski, of the British Columbia Center for Disease Control in Vancouver, and colleagues.
In other words, the seasonal flu shot may have had nothing to do with the increased risk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. not sure what you are getting at
I simply quoted the first paragraphs of the article. Obviously, this proved correlation, not causation. Causation is an open question. In any case, the finding was worthy of publication.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I disagree.
The correlation may be purely incidental. If that's the case, there's no story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. since it is published
It IS a story, whether you agree or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Published doesn't mean legitimate.
It just means that someone decided it was worth printing. They had an opinion, I disagree with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. There is no evidence for causality.
However, the correlation might be an important flag. It certainly suggests the need to get vaccinated with both.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. I did not get either flu shot, and I did not get sick this past flu season
I remember clearly getting very sick in Navy boot camp a few decades ago, when on about day 3 they gave me 16 inoculations, ALL within a minute. Eight in each arm. I got a hacking cough, feverish sweating, sinus congestion, just felt awful. Since then I avoid shots unless required to travel. It's worked out fine so far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. I think any immunization is going to kick the immune system into some sort of
response. Immunizations that contain foreign proteins are going to trigger a higher response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. It would be interesting to know what other factors they controlled for.
There is more info here. I haven't had time to read through it yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. No. It didn't. Correlation does not equal causation. It did not "up risks"
Article says no, the "'Regular' Flu Shot (did not) Up Risks for H1N1 Flu".

"The studies, published April 6 in the online journal PLoS Medicine, don't show whether there is a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent swine flu illness, or whether the association was possibly due to a common factor among the people in the study, said principal investigator Danuta Skowronski, of the British Columbia Center for Disease Control in Vancouver, and colleagues."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. more to the point
From the study's conclusions--

"Prior receipt of 2008–09 TIV was associated with increased risk of medically attended pH1N1 illness during the spring–summer 2009 in Canada. The occurrence of bias (selection, information) or confounding cannot be ruled out. Further experimental and epidemiological assessment is warranted. Possible biological mechanisms and immunoepidemiologic implications are considered."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nonsense.
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2010/04/did_getting_vaccinated_with_se.php

"...

Observational studies (by definition) don't allow that random allocation. The two groups are now given to us by circumstance and may well be very different. If we know all the differences that are important that's not a problem. We can adjust for them in a variety of ways (stratifying, using statistical models, matching of various kinds). It's the differences we don't know about or have no information about that are the problem. It could well be true that there are characteristics that people have, characteristics we don't have any information about, that affect both the chance they will get vaccinated and the chance they will get pandemic flu and that the two groups differ in these characteristics. For example, suppose that care-seeking behavior were different in the two groups. Then people who were more likely to go to a doctor or clinic to get vaccinated might be more likely to go when they have an influenza like illness (ILI) and hence more likely to have a "medically attended" case of pandemic influenza. This is something the authors were attuned to and took pains to check indirectly to see if this was a plausible explanation, but there are many other possibilities, including ones no one has yet thought of. In an RCT you don't have to worry about them. In an observational study you do. It is called residual confounding or hidden bias (hidden because you don't have any information that would allow you to control for the effects of the factor).

There are a number of ways to control for confounders about which you have information and that was done in these substudies. There are 3 very similar substudies that are essentially replications. They use different populations and somewhat different protocols but all have the same problem that they don't -- they can't -- control for residual confounding. They are observational. The authors suggest that having three such substudies makes the problem of residual confounding less likely, but replication doesn't do that, since the same problem is seen in each. In my opinion these studies don't meaningfully eliminate uncontrolled confounders found in one and not in another. I qualified this with the word "meaningfully" because there is room to object that the studies aren't identical but I don't think they are different enough to be significant (not in the statistical but in the semantic sense). The 4th substudy is the weakest because it has small numbers but it does solidly eliminate the care seeking and some other hidden biases and for young adults also shows that seasonal flu vaccination makes later diagnosis of pandemic flu more likely.

Residual confounding -- a hidden difference in who was and wasn't vaccinated that affects pandemic flu risk -- is a type of bias, but it isn't the only type. Epidemiologists are also adept at uncovering, inventing and ferreting out all kinds of systematic error (meaning, not random error) that are not related to confounding. For example, supposing the test for pandemic flu consistently gave false positive readings. That would be a type of systematic error that isn't confounding and could as easily plague a RCT. RCTs allow efficient handling of one kind of error, random error, but no others. Any RCT can have many different and disqualifying kinds of systematic error ("bias"). So the difference between the observational studies and the RCTs pertains only to a specific kind of bias, residual confounding. Both kinds of studies are subject to other kinds of error. Indeed there are good RCTs and very bad RCTs. RCTs, like observational studies, are often discordant for this reason. An RCT is no guarantee of validity any more than an observational study is a bar to it.

...

What's my bottom line on whether seasonal flu vaccine ups the risk of pandemic flu? It well might. But it might not. Or maybe it does some times and not other times. We don't know yet. This carefully done work opens up an important set of questions we now have to pursue. It'\s immediate public health import is probably small, because the pandemic strain will be a component of the next seasonal vaccine strain. This study confirms that the flu vaccine is quite effective in preventing the specific flu virus infections it is directed against or those quite similar. The surprise was the possibility it might go the other direction in some strains that are not as close but perhaps close enough to cause mischief. But those are words in the puzzle that still need to be filled in.

..."


Please stop spreading bad science journalism... THANK YOU!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. How does the article contradict
Anything in the blog?

I have no idea what is objectionable about the article I posted, which directly stated that it was not yet known whether the flu shot was the direct cause for the findings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think you know what's objectionable.
If you didn't, you wouldn't have taken three days to this post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. LOL
If that isn't an evasive answer, I don't know what is. I have better things to do than constantly check old threads.

There is nothing at all in the Business Week article that contradicts your blogs. I find this weird. You just happen to love quoting blogs. :rofl:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Health Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC