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Depression’s Upside: Depressed affect made people think better.

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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 08:34 PM
Original message
Depression’s Upside: Depressed affect made people think better.
Edited on Sat Feb-27-10 08:38 PM by steven johnson
Research has shown that patients treated with medication were approximately twice as likely to relapse as patients treated with cognitive behavior therapy. Treating people with drugs for depression is like treating a fever when the patient has an infection.

Moderately depressed individuals appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities. It is an unpleasant fact that optimism is a cognitive distortion. Realistic approaches to life problems in depressed patients is a better strategy than positive self-talk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Depressive_realism
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/webdocs/HaseltonNettle.pdf





The new research on negative moods, however, suggests that sadness comes with its own set of benefits and that even our most unpleasant feelings serve an important purpose. Joe Forgas, a social psychologist at the University of South Wales in Australia, has repeatedly demonstrated in experiments that negative moods lead to better decisions in complex situations. The reason, Forgas suggests, is rooted in the intertwined nature of mood and cognition: sadness promotes “information-processing strategies best suited to dealing with more-demanding situations.” This helps explain why test subjects who are melancholy — Forgas induces the mood with a short film about death and cancer — are better at judging the accuracy of rumors and recalling past events; they’re also much less likely to stereotype strangers.

Why is mental illness so closely associated with creativity? Andreasen argues that depression is intertwined with a “cognitive style” that makes people more likely to produce successful works of art. In the creative process, Andreasen says, “one of the most important qualities is persistence.” Based on the Iowa sample, Andreasen found that “successful writers are like prizefighters who keep on getting hit but won’t go down. They’ll stick with it until it’s right.” While Andreasen acknowledges the burden of mental illness — she quotes Robert Lowell on depression not being a “gift of the Muse” and describes his reliance on lithium to escape the pain — she argues that many forms of creativity benefit from the relentless focus it makes possible. “Unfortunately, this type of thinking is often inseparable from the suffering,” she says. “If you’re at the cutting edge, then you’re going to bleed.”

This line of research led Andrews to conduct his own experiment, as he sought to better understand the link between negative mood and improved analytical abilities. He gave 115 undergraduates an abstract-reasoning test known as Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which requires subjects to identify a missing segment in a larger pattern. (Performance on the task strongly predicts general intelligence.) The first thing Andrews found was that nondepressed students showed an increase in “depressed affect” after taking the test. In other words, the mere presence of a challenging problem — even an abstract puzzle — induced a kind of attentive trance, which led to feelings of sadness. It doesn’t matter if we’re working on a mathematical equation or working through a broken heart: the anatomy of focus is inseparable from the anatomy of melancholy. This suggests that depressive disorder is an extreme form of an ordinary thought process, part of the dismal machinery that draws us toward our problems, like a magnet to metal.

But is that closeness effective? Does the despondency help us solve anything? Andrews found a significant correlation between depressed affect and individual performance on the intelligence test, at least once the subjects were distracted from their pain: lower moods were associated with higher scores. “The results were clear,” Andrews says. “Depressed affect made people think better.” The challenge, of course, is persuading people to accept their misery, to embrace the tonic of despair. To say that depression has a purpose or that sadness makes us smarter says nothing about its awfulness. A fever, after all, might have benefits, but we still take pills to make it go away. This is the paradox of evolution: even if our pain is useful, the urge to escape from the pain remains the most powerful instinct of all.



Depression’s Upside
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. KR+6 - interesting and thought-provoking.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Stupid and mind numbing
Edited on Sat Feb-27-10 09:17 PM by Confusious
As a person who has major depressive disorder.

And as they say, don't piss on my head and tell me raining.

Being depressed isn't a good thing, and I certainly didn't think clearly. If anything, I swung out into thinking everything was worthless and a waste of time, because there is no point of our existence.

Now that I have medication, my mind doesn't swing out that far anymore. I fall into the "life is what you make it" category.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. It looks like they are talking about sadness
In the study the OP cites. Depression is a whole other ball of wax, and to draw conclusions about depression from this is not just unwarranted, it is callous toward those who suffer from it.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. +10
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for posting this with links
Read studies to this effect years ago, but not online, so I had no links to refer people to.

Always figured that little Merry Sunshine kid was just not right in the head. Seriously, had occasion to take prozac for a couple years while also doing some serious cognitive work with some good professionals. It did help, and was probably necessary to kick start proper brain chemistry after a very devastating loss and lifestyle adjustment. The doc was happy with my progress but I noticed I was making some questionable decisions and had gained an uncharacteristic reckless streak after a couple years, so I went off and the meds and relied on herbal supplements after that. The doc kept a sharp eye on me and decided I was doing the right thing by not letting the meds over happy me.

I felt like I lost some important edges after a while on the meds. Now, I deal with my oft negative view but avoid the tank of total despair through careful nutritional monitoring and supplements. Menopause brought some interesting needs for adjustments.

The bouts with chronic depression over the years with that one big critical patch have given me a better perspective on the human condition and it is easier to understand, and sometimes help others. There is a lot to be said for getting in touch with your really dark side. It hones some important cognitive skills if you work at it. Makes me a more forgiving soul and that feels better in the long run.

I did wonder if Prozac might have had a lot to do with some of the bubble building businesses did in the 90s. Sure made me reckless. Noticed it in others around me who took it. Too many doctors wrote too many scripts without being skilled at really monitoring the results. I was lucky with a really good doc and counseling team.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. my wife was on just about every drug for depression and bipolar
the only thing that has worked is pot and resolving several issues through non drug therapy.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The wrong drug for any individual can be fatal, in that it messes you enough that you pick death
The right drug can be a solid asset in teaching your brain how to concoct the batches of chemicals that ensure some decent transmission between neurons. A doctor who knows what the hell they are doing and will take the time to keep an eye on patients is a godsend. But looking at reality and sorting what can be changed about how we deal is essential.

As my beloved wayward daughter says: whatever doesn't kill you makes you strange.

I feel a bit of strange is a good tool to have. Life throws a lot of strange at us sometimes. Good to know strange so it doesn't shake us up too much. ;)

Glad your wife is doing better. That dark place is pretty bad, but seductive too. Those who haven't been there will never fully grasp what hell it is. Family have their own hell when dealing with loved ones who are in the dark place or the frenzy that bi-polar brings, but only fellow travelers really grasp the hell of the dark place. I wish it on no one.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. ROFL - The economic bubble was Prozac-induced?
I love it! Who know, maybe it was.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. there was mention of the possibility at the time
Prozac made many feel so good they took too many risks. Many people took it to increase their energy and 'compete'.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Do you know anyone who takes anti-depressants
Edited on Mon Mar-01-10 12:56 AM by Confusious
Or have you ever taken anti-depressants?

Do you know anyone who has taken Ritalin or have you taken Ritalin?

Why do I ask?

A person that is hyperactive is not going to have the same reaction to the drug as a person who is not.

A person who is not depressed taking a anti-depressant is not going to have a fun time on it.



It does not make you "happy" It only gets you to a point where you can be "happy." If you so wish, you can still be miserable too.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yep, many, Yep, know a couple, don't care, knew that, knew that too
And lastly, yes, am well aware. Also know of many people who took prozac for a 'professional edge'

Disastrous for them and everybody, IMHO
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. So if you do,

A person taking prozac who is not depressed is an idiot. It's not going to give them a "professional edge." It could end up driving them into wacky land.

For those of who have been depressed it's a gift of life.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Agree
Edited on Mon Mar-01-10 10:38 AM by havocmom
but still, there were fools who did it.

Prozac saved my life. I was lucky, my brain responded by learning how to make some of what it needed and that Prozac provided. And at some point, what Prozac provided, on top of the brain/body picking up again, made me a danger to myself in that I felt a little too good and took some foolish risks. Believe me, I grasp what it can do for those who don't need it. Got to that point! ;)

Some are not so lucky and their brains/bodies don't re-learn to manufacture what is needed. They may well require the meds all their lives.


My earlier point: those who really don't need it but take it for some of the wrong reasons can feel so bloody invincible, smart, daring, bold, that they get themselves (and their companies, if in any position to impact that) into a shit-load of trouble. Edited to add: There were several professionals who questioned that perhaps that was going on in some industries in the 90s, as bubbles started bursting in some industries.

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Crazy Like Us....
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Realistic approaches to life problems in depressed patients
Realistic approaches to life problems in depressed patients is a better strategy than positive self-talk." So true.

I learned this from Gone with the Wind many years ago.
"Tomorrow I'll think of some way . . . after all, tomorrow is another day." Scarlett O'Hara

This was an interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. Please don't think I'm against antidepressants
I am from the school that thinks depressions is multifactorial: biochemical, genetic, envirnomental and cognitive.

I think depression has survived natural selection because it has a survival and reproductive function in human evolution. This is a pretty cold-hearted viewpoint but I don't want to promote a non-empathetic position. I want people to pursue happiness despite the genetic baggage we are all carrying.

Depression is such a bitch to manage, I am of the opinion that it requires a lot of approaches to hold it at bay. Please don't think I denegrate any approach.

http://www.answers.com/topic/clinical-depression-1
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. This is such an interesting approach
and one that I have thought about a lot as well.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Depression is a collection of symptoms.
It's not really a disease. I see it similar to pain - the body's way of warning you something deeper is amiss. I agree with you in that there are many causes, and also many ways to manage it.

Personally, I found that antidepressants were more of a painkiller than a cure. They always worked for a while, but the depression invariably came back. What really got rid of it for me was learning to meditate so I could quiet my overactive right brain.




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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. hmm, he's trying, but I really don't think reality fits his theories
completely and I focused on thinking about it for awhile.:)

Seriously, anyone who has struggled with chronic depression reading this I think would be inclined to be a little intrigued but ultimately disappointed in yet another researcher that has no clue personally but has all kinds of neat little theories that make sense if he wants them to.

Depressed creative types are successful because they focus so much on their passion? Doing a math problem made people sad and sad people are smarter so there you go. hoo boy. Maybe some day someone will go deeper than this.
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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Let me simplify this
Moderately depressed people are more realistic. They seem to have shed the cognitive biases/distortions of optimism. As such they don't have a delusional sense of control, superiority or favorable judgements about other's opinions of them.

Do you want publication citations?

As such they are more in tune with reality -- grungy, dirty, nasty reality. So in tasks that require actual interaction with reality, they seem to be more grounded.

Do you want publication citations?
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. charming gentleman
have you had your meds today?:) seriously babe, why the snark?

His research and theories are based on the previous research that you mentioned. That however doesn't mean his theories are correct. If you want to believe it that is your perogative, but you don't need to be an asswipe about it.
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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You want to discuss beliefs? -- Grab the Bible
Edited on Sun Feb-28-10 01:48 AM by steven johnson
You want to talk theories? -- Get a six pack.

You want to talk facts? Get data.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I see you are embracing your dark side
but unfortunately it does not seem to be helping you see the reality of the above article being non-factual. There is data, and there is interpretation of that data, which is open to debate.

If you are unable to deal with people disagreeing with an article you post then this the wrong place for you to be hanging out.
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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do you have a clue as to what you are talking about?
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. That makes sense.
And it is an interesting idea. I think if you had limited your post to that point, it would have been less controversial.

My disagreement is with the implication that depression is a good thing, that medications are not useful for depression, and that creativity is due to some persistence that mentally ill people possess.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. Moderately depressed people are more realistic.

Nope, can't agree. You can barely think straight most of the time, and trying to remember anything is a bitch.

My data? 10 years of depression.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's interesting that sadness is linked to better problem solving
I can see how that would be adaptive, especially because depression can be the result of prolonged stress.

I'm not crazy (no pun intended) about the discussion of why creativity is linked to mental illness. I think there are far better explanations out there.

I also don't think that the OP's apparent conclusion that depression is a good thing, and that drugs are not warranted is way out of bounds, and not supported at all by the study he posted.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-28-10 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. It's an interesting piece, with some research to support it.
Of course, that research is hardly conclusive. Other research may show the opposite of the author's claims.

A couple of examples...

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/7/32

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0006322309008324

And, yes, there are other examples that purport to show the opposite. There are plenty of problems with all of this research, which makes such discussions rather disjointed and difficult. Thus, I find such an article highly entertaining and thought provoking, but, IMO, it would be foolish to take it for much else.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. Isn't that Scientology? Cognitive behavior doesnt halt chemical imbalance
And lack of treatment can induce what is called the "kindling" effect,
where the longer the problem goes on, the worse the severity.

Cognitive therapy is fine, but it doesn't correct a chemical imbalance.

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Cognitive therapy is not Scientology
I hope that's not what you're implying.

Not all depression is biochemical, either. There are multiple causes. Antidepressants work wonders for many, but not all. Some people find that cognitive therapy or other forms of therapy work quite well. Some find it's more physical in nature and find diet and exercise to be the solution.

You really have to take it on a case by case basis.

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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. A friend of mine knew a fellow

Thought he could control his bipolar with diet and exercise.

I asked her if it helped him.

"nope, he's worse then before"
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Sorry to hear that...
Some people need the pills, no doubt about that.

There is something to be said about diet and exercise, though. A lot of the serotonin in your body is actually produced in your gut, so if you eat horribly, it could easily disrupt that system. Exercise creates a lot of feel good hormones as well.

In my case, I'd say diet and exercise were at least 25% of my remedy. The rest of it was cognitive, learning to quiet my mind and dismiss the toxic thoughts. I had used antidepressants for over a decade to varying success, but what really got rid of it was rewiring the way I think. Now, when I do get depressed, I know how to nip it in the bud naturally. Not saying my route is the solution for anyone else, but it worked great for me.

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. diet, excerise. Why not tell sick person: "Just pull yourself out of it!"
Because that is great advice for someone who doesn't have a chemical imbalance.

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I'm sorry... I don't get your point.
Edited on Mon Mar-01-10 01:04 PM by tinrobot
Is there something wrong with a healthy lifestyle?


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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. If there is an imbalance, and there often is, that does have to be managed
but just managing chemistry without assessing, and tweaking behaviors is not a real, long term solution.

The right chemistry can be the factor that will enable cognitive work to actually change things for the better, teach needed skills, address and change self-defeating behaviors. If the brain is starved, cognitive won't work.

If the brain is fed, cognitive will lead the way to teaching us to stop being authors to some of our own misery. It is not all chemistry for most of us. There are habits of thinking that we use as coping mechanisms. Some of them are crutches that actually keep us crippled.

Using all the tools will be more likely to be successful.

And no, cognitive work is NOT Scientology! But it does help us own our reactions to life, which can be a huge tool to build on.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Search "Brain Plasticity."
And here's one abstract on the matter: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14706942
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. Depression is a Thief, Even When You Learn From It
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/blog/couchincrisis/content/article/10168/1533463

"...As regards mental health benefits, such as increased clarity of thought or problem-solving ability issuing from depression, this strikes me as, well—unlikely in the extreme (to use civil language!). So, too, with any putative physical benefits–on the contrary, major depression is associated with substantially increased health risks, such as cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

I also think it’s helpful to ask, in philosopher William James’s terms: what is the “cash value” of the idea that major depression confers an adaptive advantage by improving our problem-solving skills? Let’s stipulate such an advantage. So what? Where does that information get us, in our attempt to help people live better, more productive lives? How does it help our severely depressed patients? Should we encourage patients to prolong their depressive bouts in order to increase their analytic abilities?

We have known for decades that the sickle-cell trait provides a survival advantage over people with normal hemoglobin in regions where malaria is endemic—but this trait also increases rates of painful and debilitating sickle-cell disease. If, in a malaria-rich environment, we had the means both to reverse the sickle cell trait and to prevent malaria, would we not do so? By analogy: if we could prevent major depression with all its disadvantages, but still find ways to improve people’s “problem-solving skills,” would we not do so? Surely there are ways of teaching people how to “analyze” their problems without asking them to bear the immense burdens of major depression! By the way: William Styron’s severe depression may have been related in part to alcohol and/or prescription drug misuse—but the horrible symptoms he describes are not at all atypical in many, many severely depressed patients.

None of this is to say that people who are depressed are in any way “broken” and must be “fixed.” One should never confuse a person’s mood state or illness with his or her value or goodness as a human being!

..."
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
37. Super interesting, thanks, nt
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