Closing the Door on Homeopathy

[HuckleB]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2558

"Homeopathy, as a cultural phenomenon, remains an enigma. In the two centuries since its invention it has failed to garner significant scientific support. In fact, developments in physics, chemistry, biology, and medicine have shown the underlying concepts of homeopathy to be wrong – guesswork and speculation that lept in the wrong direction.

...

It is therefore demonstrably true, even with simple high school level science, that the plausibility of homeopathy, for all practical purposes, and to the extent that it is possible to make such statements within the methodology of science – is zero.

...

The WHO has recently run up against homeopathy again, this time with respect to the H1N1 pandemic and vaccine. While the WHO is trying to stem a pandemic with a vaccination program, homeopaths seem to be doing everything they can to frustrate this public health measure.

...

Given the evidence and the state of the science, the only responsible position is to completely dismantle homeopathy and close the door on this pseudoscience once and for all."


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If not now, then when? If not, why?

[Th1onein]

1. I think homeopathy is quack science.

But it might shed some light on why placebos work. If we could put THAT in a bottle and sell it, we'd cure every disease known to man. So, don't shut the door all the way.

[HuckleB]

3. Well, neuroscience is more likely to figure out that mechanism than homeopathy itself.

But your point is well taken.

[Th1onein]

22. You're probably right.

But an open mind never hurt any cause.

[ingac70]

12. I use a homeopathic remedy for cystic acne.

A salve. It's the only thing that works. I'd say most homeopathic remedies are useless, but some of them are based on what primitive cultures would try to do to heal themselves, and a few actually work.

[MineralMan]

19. Write the ingredients on the label and post them here.

Please.

[ingac70]

21. Here ya go.

Acidum Carbolicum 2x, HPUS Ichthammol 2x, HPUS Arnica Montana, 3x HPUS Calendula off. 3x, HPUS Echinacea ang. 3x, HPUS Sulphur 12x, HPUS Hepar sulph. 12x, HPUS Silicea, 12x HPUS Rosen, Beeswax, Petrolatum, Stearyl Alcohol, Methyl and Propyl Paraben

http://www.herbspro.com/35090/PRIDDrawingSalve.htm

When I get an acne cyst I put this stuff on, cover it with a band aid, go to bed, and the next day the cyst is to a head. Some more stubborn ones take up to three days, but this stuff always works for me.

[ArbustoBuster]

43. Let's see...

* Carbolic acid is a disinfectant and exfoliant. (It was used as an antiseptic in surgery by the pioneering surgeon Joseph Lister.)
* Ammonium bituminosulfonate (ichthammol) is a skin softener.
* Arnica montana is a plant which has been found to be as effective as a placebo (in other words, it's useless).
* Calendula officinalis is a marigold. Also does nothing.
* Echinacea is one of the really popular herbal remedies for dealing with colds and such, but research shows it's useless. (Reference: The New England Journal of Medicine: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/353/4/341)
* Sulfur has antibiotic activity, but at 12x (diluted to one-tenth, twelve times over), it's diluted to one part in a billion - at which point it's medicinally nonexistent. You get more sulfur from the water the "medicine" was bottled with.
* The other two 12x items are the same way - they have no effect at that immense dilution.
* I don't know what Rosen is. Anyone have any ideas?
* The remaining items (Beeswax, Petrolatum, Stearyl Alcohol, Methyl and Propyl Paraben) are binders and lubricants and such, like you would find in a tube of lip balm.

So what we have here are a disinfectant/exfoliant and a skin softener, both rather diluted, packaged with a bunch of useless things and one thing I can't identify, bound up in what is effectively Chapstick.

I suspect that the useful part of this, if it's not pure placebo effect, is the carbolic acid. It disinfects and exfoliates. At 2x, you have a 1% solution of carbolic acid. Early surgeons used a 5% solution. The rest of the things in the "medicine" are homeopathic garbage that were added to it (often in amounts so tiny that they are effectively free) to drive up the price.

[salvorhardin]

44. I think you're right

Carbolic acid is a phenol, and one of the strongest ingredients in over-the-counter acne products is Resorcinol, which, according to the almighty Wiki is a dihydroxy phenol. Just two carbolic acid molecules stuck together.

[trotsky]

46. Nice work. n/t

[ingac70]

50. Concerning the placebo effect....

how can a placebo make an acne cyst come to a head when nothing else worked? Is my mind pushing out the infection?

BTw, the Icthammol seems to be what works. I've used it in other concoctions with the same results.

[ArbustoBuster]

51. How does the placebo effect do anything?

I have no idea. :) Nevertheless, the placebo effect has been tested and is real, while homeopathy has also been tested and isn't real.

I don't know what quantity of ammonium bituminosulfonate is considered therapeutic, so I don't know if there's enough of it in the remedy you use to actually work. If there is, then as a skin softener it can be useful. However, if it's been homeopathically diluted past the point of therapeutic usefulness, the icthammol won't be doing anything.

Since I do know the therapeutic quantity of carbolic acid, I can safely say that it, at least, is in a useful quantity in the remedy you use.

[salvorhardin]

52. ArbustoBuster isn't saying you were responding to placebo

What he's saying is that your acne cream is just standard over-the-counter acne cream. It isn't homeopathic. It has an active solution of carbolic acid in it. Almost by definition, homeopathic remedies have no active ingredients in them.

Carbolic acid is an old home cure for acne by the way:

"E. Wash the affected parts two or three times a day in salt water. At night after bathing in hot water, apply the following:

Carbolic Acid .........10 drops
White Vase1ine .........1 ounce

A small towel wrung out of hot water, applied on retiring, is a good remedy. The pimples should not be squeezed or pressed. between the finger nails."
http://www.old-home-remedies-guide.com/natural-remedies-for-acne.html

[HuckleB]

47. Just cover it with a band aid, or some masking tape, and you're good as gold then.

[SidDithers]

2. Homeopathy. Shit and Sugar...

Sid

[targetpractice]

4. Hahahah!

Thanks for that!

[MineralMan]

6. On the other hand,

I had a glass of water last night, and then I dreamed of Cleopatra. Must have been the water's memory of her peeing one night.

Urinus Cleopatrae 20X

[tridim]

7. Pharmaceuticals: Shit, chemicals, devastating side-effects and obscene profit.

It goes both ways.

I'm not defending either philosophy BTW.

[MineralMan]

8. Yes indeedy...pharmaceuticals are just useless. They do nothing

at all, just like homeopathetic remedies. They can't get rid of a bacterial infection, or lower your blood pressure, or shrink your tumor. They're just like the homeopathetic infinite dilutions, aren't they?

Do, please, think a bit before you write, OK. You are making no sense whatever.

[tridim]

17. I didn't say anything about their effectiveness, but since you asked.

I do enjoy honey for common bacterial infection and maintain a good diet to keep my blood pressure low. Avoiding chemical fixes unless absolutely necessary is just common sense.

[MineralMan]

18. Yeah? I'll bet the bees love you.

How's that honey work on pneumonia, then?

My point, of course, is that you condemn pharmaceuticals. You didn't conditionally condemn them. You just condemned them.

The difference is that they do stuff. They save lives. They improve quality of life.

Homeopathetic remedies do nothing at all. They can't, because they have no active ingredients if prepared properly.

Let's weigh the effects of the two on the triple-beam-balance. Yup, the pharmaceuticals are much better than the homeopathetic remedies. It's clear. One does something. The other does nothing.

[tridim]

20. I've never had pneumonia, so I don't know.

And I already stated that I don't defend the homepathic philosophy. Not sure what you're driving at.

BUT, honey is effective for me. I take it every time I get sick and have been able to avoid antibiotics for 15 years. Even my doctor says that's a good thing.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. Honey isn't technically a homeopathic remedy

Here's the definition of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homeopathy">homeopathy from dictionary.com:

Homeopathy
ho·me·op·a·thy {hō'mē-ŏp'ə-thē}
n. pl. ho·me·op·a·thies
A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy individuals similar to those of the disease itself.

[tridim]

24. Got it. Thanks.

[flyingfysh]

11. I disagree

My stepson takes a constantly-varying assortment of powerful medications, but he has to. He is bipolar, epileptic, and schizophrenic. When he used to go off his medications, the rest of the family was getting scared of him, and once called the police to remove an assortment of weapons from the house. With the medications, he is nearly normal.

[slackmaster]

5. Link to the obituary of Jacques Benveniste, who died in 2004

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/oct/21/obituaries.guardianobituaries

[dugaresa]

10. that article was very interesting

thanks for posting it

[dugaresa]

9. my favorite homeopathic story

years ago i worked with an individual whose first line of defense was his homeopathic chiropractor.

whether for a back ache or a sinus infection he would go to this guy.

now he got a persistent sinus infection and his chiropractor recommended small doses of arsenic. yes, that arsenic.

so this guy took small doses of arsenic because according to the genius chiropractor his body would fight the poison and create antibodies that would also in fight his sinus infection.

he ended up in a hospital with pneumonia and the horrible medical doctors he detested had to fix him.

he still probably goes to that quack.

[Goldom]

13. homeopathic chiropractor?

What does he do, poke your back once, then stand there doing nothing for the other 99.9999% of the visit?

[dugaresa]

14. actually there are a lot of chiropractors who are into alternative therapies

at least in my area.

They will manipulate your back and then recommend a host of vitamins that may or may not help. I may be wrong but they aren't allowed to write prescriptions so for the folks who really like having a pill to take that type of set up works really well.

I have had disc problems the only people I see are the neurosurgeon and the physical therapist and my GP. Through exercise and some meds I have controlled my problem rather well without the need for surgery.

[Warpy]

16. There is a bill in the works in NM

that would allow chiropractors to prescribe a limited range of drugs related to skeletal and skeletal muscle issues.

MDs are supporting it.

Maybe when they can prescribe stuff that actually works, they can get rid of the overpriced magic water and other snake oil.

More than one study has shown that acute back injury pain can be reduced in duration by chiropractic manipulation. Maybe adding a mild skeletal muscle relaxant can reduce it still more.

Backs are buggers. Anything to reduce pain is great.

[ArbustoBuster]

42. That deserves a DUzy. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Shouldn't chiropractic be closed out as well?

[Peregrine Took]

25. My Traditional Chinese Medicine MD often prescribes homeopathic remedies.

I have had very good success with one for indigestion and two others - one for bladder/urinary tract problems such another for burning and urgency/ frequency.

[HuckleB]

26. Are they truly homeopathic, or are they really herbal remedies?

[eShirl]

28. there seems to be A LOT of confusion between the two, doesn't there?

[HuckleB]

30. Indeed.

[Chemisse]

54. I was actually very surprised to see the actual definition of homeopathy

I had just assumed it meant herbal medicines and natural remedies.

[BuddhaGirl]

27. well, it's not going away anytime soon

in fact, the field of alternative medicine is growing.

And that's a good thing, imo.

[HuckleB]

29. Homeopathy may be "alternative," but so is drowning a cold with whiskey.

And I don't try that.

[ingac70]

31. You don't drown it....

but a cup of hot whiskey with lemon really helps a cough. Plus it will help you sleep better. ;)

[HuckleB]

32. Well, that cup of hot whiskey does sound good.

And the lemon water might even help a bit!

Cheers!

[BuddhaGirl]

33. to each his own

as I said, it's not going away...it should be left alone for those who use it and benefit from it.

[HuckleB]

35. Sorry that I believe in honest labeling.

Call it placebopathy, with warning labels, then I'll call it good.

[BuddhaGirl]

37. I believe in honest labeling too

and what the Arnica, Nux Vomica, Apis, Symphytum tubes state, has worked for me, so I'm satisfied :-)

[HuckleB]

39. They may have worked for you, but I've yet to see the research evidence that backs up those claims.

Cheers!

:toast:

[BuddhaGirl]

48. back at you!

:toast:

[morningglory]

34. I have an incorrigible case of insomnia. Have tried everything.

Hypnotism, melatonin, tryptophan, on and on. Sleeping pills are not good for me, they are addictive or build up a tolerance, like benedryl. A homeopathic thing called Calms Forte is working very well for me. It has changed my life.

[HuckleB]

36. That's great.

Still, I don't see how it's honest for a company to sell such a product as a "sleep aid." What studies prove that it is safe, and that it works better than placebo?

[BuddhaGirl]

49. I love Calms Forte

I take it with me when I travel...works wonders :-)

[SidDithers]

38. No Homeopathy thread is complete without...

That Mitchell and Webb Look Homeopathic A&E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

and

Peter Bowditch committing Homeopathic Suicide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

Sid

[HuckleB]

45. ROTFLMAO!

Thanks.

[undergroundpanther]

40. I was harmed by homeopathy

I was at a conference .There I learned about how homeopathy could help things like ADHD and PSTD. I never knew much about it but the lady was a registered nurse with psych training.She was offering to do homeopathy for ADHD and possibly other mental illnesses for free. I would be participating in her study.It was free,it was being done by an RN,and it seemed plausible to help based on how she explained it. So I decided to try it.I had no insurance to pay for therapy,and I paid out of pocket for my meds that thankfully were not hideously expensive. I had not gotten back on disability yet(was still married). She told me I had to stop all my medications.So I did.Every week I got sugar pills supposedly saturated with something. I followed the regimen she told me to,wrote in the diary all the symptoms to show her at the appointment.. I went to see her once a week. At first she gave her services for free,than after about the 4th week,after I had gotten off my meds she began to push for money.If I could just pay her 20 bucks... I didn't have much,I accepted her offer because she said it would be free..Well she lied.I began to feel blah,unmotivated..but kept seeing her after shelling out like 60 bucks,Blah began to feel depressed.She told me to hang in there it was going to get worse before it gets better.Soon I was having panic, seeing things in my peripheral vision,my insomnia got really bad,I had more suicidal thoughts, cutting,and generally losing it.I hung in there until I made a half assed but sincere attempt to kill myself.I was having nightmares,and was jumping out of my skin anytime anyone approached me from behind..it was bad. After trying to die, I decided homeopathy was not helping me.I quit going.But being curious I decided to find out more about homeopathy.The more I researched the more I was disgusted,it's a load of new age crap.And a RN with psych training should consider her homeopathy crap endangered my life,if I had stayed on my meds,and had insurance for therapy back than maybe I would have not fallen for such poppycock.

[HuckleB]

41. Thanks for sharing your story.

For some reason, reading your post made me remember my younger days, managing an agency that served children with developmental disabilities. No, the kids weren't exposed to homeopathy, but the employees who swore by homeopathy certainly called in sick more than average, and they also came to work looking like death warmed over more than the average, by far. I live in an "alternative medicine" mecca, and that was my first clue that something wasn't right with homeopathy.

[GoneOffShore]

53. Thanks for posting this -

I view homeopathy the same way I view any sort of non science woo.