Doctors May 'Fire' Parents Who Don't Vaccinate Children

[Liberal_in_LA]

Doctors May 'Fire' Parents Who Don't Vaccinate Children

When Cathlene Echan walked into her pediatrician's office two weeks after giving birth, she was nervous about discussing her recent decision not to vaccinate her second baby.

The Echan family of Orange County, Calif., has had trouble finding a pediatrician after they decided to not vaccinate their children. Cathlene Echan decided to stop vaccinations after her son Josiah, inset, was diagnosed with autism.
(Courtesy Cathlene Echan)But Echan, of Orange County, Calif., did not expect to be asked to leave.

"The doctor said it was too much of a liability to have us as patients," said Echan, a 28-year-old stay at home mom. Echan's oldest child, Josiah, now 5, had just been diagnosed with autism around the same time her second son Torren, now 2, was born.

-----------

"She was very nice at first, but when I asked her to give him a checkup, she said, 'you need to leave,'" said Echan.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/AutismNews/doctors-drop-parents-vaccinate/story?id=8894999

[vadawg]

1. i guess if your not going to listen to your doctors advice then they should be able to fire your ass

totally get why the doctor would say bye, same as the schools who wont accept the kids..

[gorfle]

30. Precisely.

If you do not agree with the medical advice and services your doctor recommends then you need to find a different doctor anyway.

[kestrel91316]

57. Exactly. I have "fired" a couple-three clients over the years for being

totally unsatisfiable PITAs - in large part because they would keep coming in ostensibly for MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION and then get all nasty and argumentative and complaining every time I rendered it, and bitching about how I just want their money, and blah blah blah.

I can pick and choose my clients, and on occasion I do just that.

[snagglepuss]

304. What are PITAs?

[Lisa0825]

311. PITA = Pain In The Ass. nt

[defendandprotect]

76. "above all, do no harm" . . . what other care might this child have required?

[Freddie Stubbs]

116. That must be balanced with the potential harm to other patients that

these un-vaccinated people could cause.

[defendandprotect]

237. Rather the harm is death and life long illness for these children . . .

in the case of some of these vaccines --

In the case of flu . . . if contracted the consequences would RARELY be anything lie

that. However, for the recipient of the vaccine, it could be more serious.

And, presumably, those who are vaccinated should be immune????

Isn't that the stated case???

[HuckleB]

245. Presumably?

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. What schools won't accept which kids?

What are you referring to?

[vadawg]

170. now you being a teacher you must know they need their vacs before schools will accept them..

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. And a note from a parent explaining their refusal to vaccinate is accepted

in lieu of the shot records.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. Public schools, at least in MY state

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Good - drive the anti-vax nutters to a distant anti-vax-nutter colony

where they can live and die without exposing the rest of us.

Bravo to the doc for disowning a terminally ignorant patient.

[Ferret Annica]

13. Yeah, opinions different then yours' are dangerous, Right?

I got very sick from the Swine Flu vaccine in Basic Combat Training in 1976. In fact, at Ft. Dix several soldiers died from that injection.

I was a pin cushion my nine years in the Army. The bubonic plague series was especially a bad experience.

I'll be damned if I would ever get a vaccination ever again, especially either vaccine for Swine Flu.

Good for these parents, and good riddance to this doc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza

[Lance_Boyle]

14. Woo! Woo! Angry Anti-vax nutter train coming! n/t

[winyanstaz]

47. Some parents just might be concerned about the additives...

and for good reason.

[Pavulon]

56. That reason is called ignorance. It is blonde and cant

accept that its kid inherited a disease from her and her spouse. So she blames a drug. That is where all science stops.

[winyanstaz]

So you know where autism comes from and exactly what causes it?

Please post a link to that information then. I am sure Doctors everywhere will be interested in your findings.

[Pavulon]

114. You know where smallpox comes from?

a virus. Like the flu. Know why you dont have to sweat it, because we wiped it out with vaccines. That is science, anything else if altruistic faith based mumbo jumbo. Your call as an adult, but children can form consent to participate in stupidity.

[winyanstaz]

168. once again I will tell you..and this time I will type it real sloooow ..

so you can grasp it.
First off..NO ONE is against vaccines in general..or against smallpox vaccines.
They are leary of THIS set of shots...for the swine flu.

[Pavulon]

174. and MMR, the "autism one". Then the swine flu.

same idiots, different disease. Stupid has mutated.

[kestrel91316]

66. And if those parents believe the physician doesn't know anything and THEY

the parent have superior knowledge, they need to find a physician they won't insult endlessly by medical second-guessing.

IF YOU THINK YOUR DOCTOR IS DEAD WRONG ABOUT VACCINE SAFETY, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU KEEP GOING TO THEM??????? OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED, RIGHT?????

[winyanstaz]

105. Of course if you do not agree with a Doctor you should find another...

But to deny a child health-care is just wrong in the meantime.
Doctors take an oath to give health-care. Not to dictate a persons every choice.
Not all Doctors or nurses agree on this flu shot.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

198. The baby was not denied needed treatment and was at no risk

Parents have to take responsibility for the choices they make for their children, be they JWs or AntiVaxers

[woo me with science]

33. Yes, they can be dangerous.

When they involve not immunizing your child against a contagious disease, they are certainly dangerous to everyone around you.

[kestrel91316]

62. Yeah, and it's a fact that flu vaccine production techniques haven't

improved AT ALL in 36 years!!!!1!!!111!!

[siligut]

192. Many people had trouble with the vaccine that year.

My guess is that something was very wrong with the 1976 vaccine. You are not the only one who was put off vaccinations by that.

[winyanstaz]

59. So you hate your fellow Americans huh?

Where can we drive the sheep too where their unquestioning folowing of authority won't endanger our families?
People who cheer on death are a danger to everyone.
Boo to the doctor that put a child's life in danger by denying health care too

[defendandprotect]

78. Of course, this woman already has one child with autism . . . so why be cautious?

Look at it this way, perhaps it was only a BAD BATCH of vaccine which happened

to have hurt her child?

What are the odds that could happen again?

One child with an adverse reaction to vaccines should be enough...

And it looks like we have tens of thousands more: dead, autistic, suffering

attention deficit disorder -- and other illnesses.

Let's have some real research on these corporate-vaccines!!

[Pavulon]

84. ADD is a "newer: disorder.. Smallpox is not

so if you look at trends of course they go up. By passing on this shit if you convince one moron to follow this course of action you are making the world less safe.

[defendandprotect]

240. Again, small pox and polio vaccines may be challenged with a resurgence of mumps . . .

however, YOU are talking about small pox and polio while this is about FLU . . .

it's about long term damage to human beings which we aren't exploring -- in

fact, pharmaceutical corporations would like us to be blind to.

And the fanaticism of this idea that one woman with a child already made ill by

the vaccines shouldn't be able to delay the booster shots!

What you're pushing is the right-wing idea of safety --

How about we kill every tree for Reagan?

Or kill every Middle Easterner for safety?

Knock down every skyscraper because someone may fly a plane into it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

187. You know who ELSE had ADD?

Einstein, several of the great musical minds of the 18th century, such as Bethoven. This ADD stuff is part of the genetic pattern.

Look I doubt Einstein got the MMR vaccine, mostly it had not been developed.

As a person WITH ADD I have made it my point to research its history. And many historians agree on this little thing... ADD goes back a LONG TIME... and it is GENETIC in its basis...

It is the HUNTER gene, to use a Thom Hartmann expression.

I guess the MMRR has been around for thousands of years then?

WHO KNEW?

[proud2BlibKansan]

206. My masters thesis was on ADD

There are not many other disorders that we can document going back several thousand years. There is evidence the ancient Greeks dealt with ADD kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. I'd be intereted to read your thesis

I was amazed in many good ways when I did research on the disorder and found just how far back it went.

But I am sure the MMR caused it...

:-)

[HuckleB]

228. When did you do your masters thesis?

[defendandprotect]

239. There's evidence that males ..

have many kinds of problems . . .

however, genetically, nature doesn't create epidemics as we are seeing now

with autism and attention deficit disorders.

[HuckleB]

244. Really?

Prove it.

[defendandprotect]

238. Again . . . DNA doesn't cause epidemics like ADD or autism . . .

you're not going to find a genetic link to poverty, either!!

[HuckleB]

242. Autism, ADHD and poverty?

What on earth are you talking about? Are you joking?

[proud2BlibKansan]

204. So you are claiming that vaccines can cause ADD?

[defendandprotect]

241. I'm saying that the medical community and parents are rasiing many questions ...

about the vaccines -- including connections to attention deficit disorders --

and autism.

We also know that there has been damage done by "bad batches" of these vaccines.

And we also should remember that we are dealing with corporate-for profit-medicine here.

Further, the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa may be linked to the polio vaccine used there --

grown in monkey glands -- with viruses crossing species.

There are also questions as to connections to breast cancer.



And you say you wrote a thesis on vaccines/ADD and you've never heard any of this before?

[HuckleB]

247. Let's see the studies connecting ADHD to vaccines, please.

BTW, the current DSM, which is 15 plus years old, does not have an "ADD" diagnosis. It's ADHD, with three subtypes. If you know so much about all of this, why don't you know that?

[defendandprotect]

286. Look them up . . or contact Congress . . .

And where do I refer to ADHD or even ADD . . . ???

I refer to attention deficit disorders . . . there are many kinds . . . and this

has been building over last 30 years--!!!

[HuckleB]

296. You refer to ADD in that post.

ADD falls under the ADHD diagnosis. It has for 15 years now.

If you have no study to offer, why are you making the claims you are making?

[SidDithers]

293. If it's a "bad batch" then it has nothing to do with vaccines...

it could also have been a bad batch of formula, or childrens Tylenol, or rice meal, or vegetable medley.

Sid

[mzmolly]

103. Don't worry, the rest of you are "protected" by vaccination.

Such little confidence!

[Chemisse]

212. Here we go again

I knew it wouldn't be far into the thread before the name calling began.

[AngryAmish]

3. Good for them

I wouldn't want to deal with those whackadoodles myself.

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. wow. I expected a more 'anti-vaccine' attitude on DU.

[Posteritatis]

11. Check back in a couple of hours. (nt)

[SidDithers]

26. You thought wrong...

DUers, for the most part, are smart.

Sid

[Ferret Annica]

217. And your coy insult denotes intelligence?

I beg to differ. I got deathly ill from Swine Flu vaccine in basic combat training in the U.S. Army (1976), and I note that retro-viruses such as the various permutations of HIV are very hard to suppress with a vaccine. Many vaccines have had preservative substances and other content issues that may or may not be responsible for disorders and illnesses.

So donate the blind, coy hubris to some brain dead FReeper. That is where your sort of nasty attitude belongs; in JimRobland. Vaccination is a treatment protocol that in m any ways is a work in progress, nothing more.

Cheers.

[SidDithers]

294. Yes. If you're against vaccination for stupid reasons...

then you are, by definition, stupid.

Sid

[Ferret Annica]

303. Are you on a-sid man? Groovy rebuttal; not.

Listen goober, vaccines take time to do their alleged good work building up the old immune system. So, what good is it when it is being given out in the middle of the viral outbreak?

By the way, can you perhaps back up your last statement posted with facts or logic? You sound positively FReeperish here.

Now, if vaccines are so radically righteous, why did I get hospitalized in 1976 from my swine flu shot? Why did others also in the military die from this vaccine? Wheres the vaccine to prevent HIV? Well?

In the December 1994 Medical Post, Canadian author of the best-seller book " The Medical Mafia" Guylaine Lanctot, MD, stated, "The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are actually changing our genetic code through vaccination...100 years from now we will know that the biggest crime against humanity was vaccines."

The arguments against vaccines are not coming from a handful of fringe lunatics. Entire professional organizations are beginning to speak out. Criticisms of vaccines are being sounded by an increasing number of reputable, credible scientists, researchers, and self-educated parents from around the world.

The growing multi-billion dollar vaccine industry loves the built in guarantee of big profits the way every child and adult on the planet a potential recipient of vaccines administered periodically throughout their lives.

Wake-up to the fact profits often kill critical thought and studies designed to make sure medical professionals have the best tools to fight disease, and to keep those making money on things like vaccines honest.

Or don't answer because it's too hard to back up your silly words and go get a sign-up at Free republic where answers like the one you give me here are king. Yeesh.

[SidDithers]

307. Your anecdote from 1976 notwithstanding...

every major health organization around the world recommends childhood vaccines, as well as vaccination against ever-changing virii like influenza. Vaccination programs have eliminated smallpox, virtually eliminated polio, and saved millions of lives. According to the WHO:

Three million lives are saved each year through childhood vaccines and immunizations, but that success rate could double with more funding and support, according to a new report on the state of vaccines worldwide.

Major progress has been achieved controlling measles, tetanus, tuberculosis and whooping cough, and steps are being made to tackle influenza and strains of hepatitis, according to the 116-page report produced jointly by the World Health Organization, UNICEF and the World Bank.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/22/nation/na-vaccines22


So, goober, continue to advocate against vaccination programs. And those of us who know better will continue to laugh at you.

Sid

Edit: fixed spelling

[Ferret Annica]

309. A little better, but you still need to read for content.

I view vaccination as a strategy and even am well acquainted with how the procedure was invented and developed.

Now, my point is the medical establishment can take a procedure like this and poison people with toxic substances used to keep the vaccine from going bad, take short cuts or make mistakes - as with the case of the 'live' vaccine that made me ill in '76. They can also have no or mixed results, as we all know from the well publicized development issues with the RNA based retrovirus known as HIV.

The medical profession can and does trot on it's large phallus all the time. And history is full of such examples of human error of all kinds producing treatments that are inherently bad or ill advised, or become that way due to mistakes of bad public policy.

I know several fellow veterans for example who were dispensed anti-depressants like popcorn by an industry where doctors are inundated with sales pressure from pharmaceutical manufacturers who's goal is profits, not improved public health.

Some committed suicide, probably because the meds exacerbated the condition prompting a seeking of treatment for the problem. Others found out that their Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome was misdiagnosed by a Veteran's Administration for political and economic reasons, and they usually are rightfully indignant and angry that happened to them.

My point is not to crusade against all vaccinations, but to question whether all is well with a vaccination program from the product and how it was developed and manufactured, to why and how it is disseminated.

You assume wrong I am against all vaccination. I only take you to task for your blind acceptance of all vaccination and vaccines because doctors are human, and the health industry in general is fueled by profit.

Do some critical thinking Goobie Doo. it would be beneficial to you. You last post was better, thanks for sharing it. ;-)

[snagglepuss]

305. LOL nt

[bluestateguy]

4. So?

When you make a decision about a lifestyle choice, you need to live with the consequences of that decision.

I'm not saying I support the doctor's decision, but I support his right to make it.

[SidDithers]

5. Good...

I don't see why "We reserve the right to refuse service" shouldn't apply to doctors whose patients refuse their advice.

Sid

[Liberal_in_LA]

10. What about doctors who don't want to dispense birth control? that sort of thing?

[SidDithers]

15. Then the patient finds a doctor who does...nt

Sid

[vadawg]

27. +1000 same as a doctor who refuses to treat someone until they lose wieght

the doctor should be able to fire any patient who dosent follow the advice of the doctor.. same as my mechanic if i dont listen to what hes telling me then he should and would fire me...

[winyanstaz]

63. Well now..your car dying because the mechanic is angry...

is not the same as a person dying because they are denied health care.
Any Doctor that denies health-care should lose their license.
They took an OATH to provide care..NOT to dispense their own moral ideals.
If they want to dictate morals...they need to go study to be a priest then.

[tigereye]

95. their attitude about the usefulness of vaccines has nothing to do with morals

[vadawg]

like the mechanic they advise us best how to keep alive/car running

if your not prepared to listen to your doctor/mechanic then why should they waste their time seeing you, why should a doctor have to see you if everything they tell you is just ignored, frinstance the doc tells you to lose the flab before he will do surgery, you dont lose it should he have to operate?? Part of the providing of care is to ensure that their patients actually listen to them, if a patient is to dumb, ignorant or stubborn to listen then they can find another doctor...

[HuckleB]

223. Who said anything about withholding care?

http://www.oma.org/practiceadvisory/Office/endingRelation.htm

[kestrel91316]

70. You boycott them and go elsewhere. It's quite simple.

[KansDem]

6. Well, if health-care CEOs can practice medicine...

...then I guess medical doctors can do what CEOs have traditionally done...fire people.

It's a crazy, mixed-up world! :shrug:

[Barack_America]

7. I agree with the doctor's right to not see the child...

But I do not agree with how it was handled.

[The Straight Story]

9. I support dr's who don't want patients who have had abortions, and these drs as well

A dr should not have to treat someone they deem immoral/wrong in their life choices, and we have the same choice to choose a different dr.

[SidDithers]

18. +1...

Health care is a partnership between doctor and patient. They need to be on the same page for it to work.

Sid

[kestrel91316]

74. Exactly. If they keep disagreeing with me and repeatedly inform me

just how dead wrong I am and how right the doctor they read about on the intertubes is, they need to go elsewhere.

[Pavulon]

20. Morality and say a person who refuses to treat bipolar mania

are very different. SO when little johnny gets measles or some other preventable illness mommy will decide that autism is actually genetic and sue the doctor. Same as a patient with treatable mania who is suicidal but refuses care. Sure they may not kill themselves but the doc cant just overlook it.

[Lyric]

38. It isn't about morality, it's about public health and liability.

The reality is that a doctor who indicates tacit support for something like this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Just wait until the first time the child of some anti-vaxer contracts chicken pox or measles, and passes it on to a small baby in the waiting room or an at-risk adult whose immunity has waned over the years. If it can be proven that the doctor permitted unvaccinated patients to be in the same treatment area on a regular basis with vulnerable patients, then that doctor could potentially be held liable for health damages.

For the record, I do NOT agree that doctors should be able to turn down patients who've had abortions in the past. I agree that doctors should not be forced to PERFORM abortions, but refusing standard health care to a patient for "moral" reasons is flat-out bullshit and should not be tolerated. I can't think of anything less compatible with the Hippocratic Oath than such a refusal. Should a doctor be able to turn down a poor patient because he thinks that poverty indicates immorality? What about a patient who has tattoos? A patient that voted Democratic in the last election? A patient who eats ham and cheese sandwiches that the doctor feels is a moral abomination?

If there is no public health risk, then NO...a doctor should NOT have that right. If they're so terribly worried about their morality that they'd refuse to do their JOBS, then they can satisfy their "morality" by ceasing to practice medicine PERIOD.

[tigereye]

102. thank you, voice of reason!

:hi: :thumbsup:

[snagglepuss]

306. Well said nt

[winyanstaz]

It is not a Doctors place to dictate morals.

They take an oath to help the sick..NOT to pick and chose who lives or dies.

[Pavulon]

68. No it is about stupid. If it becomes a fad to eat shit

to loose weight because a former MTV VJ says so i would expect a doctor to refuse patients who practice this "treatment". Or at lease refer them to DSS and a psych eval.

Really, this topic is a brilliant filter for stupidity.

Smallpox, ever get it?

[defendandprotect]

85. And there are no "stupid" doctors, no "stupid" medicine, no "stupid" corporations ...

involved in the health industry?

No "stupid" pharmaceutical companies -- !!!!

:evilgrin:

[Pavulon]

99. Yeah, the ones in sudan who think polio vac is voodoo

they are pretty much fucked. Pray to whatever you believe in that a real pandemic never happens in your lifetime. Smallpox was catastrophic, 2 million bodies in 1967. half a billion in the 20th century. Ever have that disease, know why?

Time to pull your head out of your ass.

[defendandprotect]

243. Well, again, your eloquence is so convincing . . .

However, this continues to not be about the polio or small pox vaccines --

PARENTS AND DOCTORS ARE CHALLENGING the batteries of vaccinations that newborns and

young children are receiving.

NOR do we know the long term effects of these vaccines.

The natural way for children to gain immunities is from their Mother's breast milk.

And . . . WHO is it who is not pushing that idea?

Patriarchal medicine has disconnected women and newborns in favor of plastic bottles

and formula.

Coincidentally, making corporations richer --

[HuckleB]

249. So when all children were breast fed, none of these diseases killed anyone?

[defendandprotect]

284. How long has patriarchy been attacking breast feeding?

As I recall when we got here the patriarchs were telling Native American women

that their breast milk was no good because it was "blue."

Studies have still not been completed on breast milk and the natural hormones/chemicals

it provides some of which are used into very old age -- 80 years!

Of course, women in 37 states also now have rocket fuel in their breast milk thanks

to corporate corruptions and lack of government regulation!!

When did we have a polio epidemic before the one in this country?

When did we have a cancer epidemic which is now 1 in 3 adults?

When did we have an autism epidemic as we have now?


And when have we had patriarchal medicine pushing anything but formula?

[HuckleB]

297. Answer my question.

[winyanstaz]

92. Anyone can make up all kinds of stupid things like you just did as well...

Eating shit? Yes your stupidity has come out...that is a pretty stupid thing for you to say alright.
You are ASSUMING that people that are not rushing to get this swine flu shot are against ALL vaccines and that is simply bull crap.
It is only THIS particular shot people are frightened about.
The Doctor should NOT refuse healthcare..but get their patients to a mental health care Doctor if they are endangering their lives by doing something as crazy as your post.
Whats wrong with you anyway that you would put an innocent child's life at risk so a Doctor can shove his own moral views down someone else's throat?
At ANY given moment there can be a child in the waiting room at a Dr's office...in the mall, on the street, on the bus, on the plane, at school..etc..that is not yet vaccinated against one thing or another.
Do you suggest we should refuse them all health care? Lock them all up until the state approved chemicals are all in their little bodies at the exact same time? Sheesh..talk about stupid.
He took an oath to give health care.
If he refuses to do so..he should lose his license.
In the meantime...if you attack me again..I shall simply put you on ignore for being beyond stupid.

[Pavulon]

110. I suggest DSS custody. Just like a person who rapes their kid.

does not have a moral choice. Kid has lymphoma, guess what you cant take him to thie witch doctor or pray for them to get better. Adults can bear the results of personal stupidity. this is the result of vaccination. Ever see this, no, because we wiped it out. It now lives in CDC and Russia, thats it. Polio too. This person will not be able to enroll their child in school. A child can not make informed consent, so parent is responsible for their care.

[winyanstaz]

124. How old is that baby? Is it old enough to have had all of it's shots for what ever that is?

(I am assuming it is either small pox or measles but I don't know for sure.)
You are another that is assuming that because people are leary of this swine flu shot..that they neglect all other vacines.
That is simply NOT true and posting pictures to sway people is easy enough to do.
I am sure I could go out and find a few deformed kids to post as to why we shouldnt be sticking untested chemicals into their bodies.
I have relatives that have had the swine flu. They were sick for a few days..and are better now. They said it was a bit different than other flues as the diarhea was terrible but other than that it was mild compared to other flus they have had in the past.
Because they did not get the swine flu shot they should lose their children?
Some people simply cannot take those shots either as they have allergies to the eggs or other chemicals.
To suggest people should lose their children simply because they dont rush out and obey the governments orders is just wrong.

[Pavulon]

130. That aint a few, that was 500 MILLION dead

in the 20th century from a virus eradicated by the EBIL thermisol autism causing vaccine. 2 MILLION dead in 1967, 0 dead now. Lets review, vaccines work, if you refuse to treat your child emergency custody can and will be used to stop you from murdering them. The Jehovah witness crowd figured this out, the vax morons will too.

Lets back up do you BELIEVE that flu or Smallpox is a Viral Disease? Do you believe in the scientific method?

[winyanstaz]

148. I believe in vaccines...as do most who are not simply rushing out to get THIS vaccine...

You are assuming that people that are not in a rush to stick an UNTESTED vaccine into their kids bodies are against all shots.
That is simply not the case.

[Pavulon]

163. It is made the same way as regular flu vax. this is free information

same process used to make regular flu shot was used to make this shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

215. It wasn't rushed, it is done the same way the annual shot was

and it was tested the same way the annual shot is tested.

Going over to CDC or googling clinical trials and H1N1 will give you that answer.

One of the testing centers, for example, is the Clinical Research Center at Vanderbilt University.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

230. Holy shit, how many times are we going to hear the lie that the vaccine was "untested"???

The tests and testing procedures have been well documented regarding the Swine Flu vaccine, and even posted here at DU numerous times. Over and over the same lie gets told and the same evidence provided to refute the lie, and that's just here on DU.

This lie just refuses to die because people like you keep repeating it, even when presented with the evidence that you're wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. What's the saying? On yes a lie is around the world

before the truth has finished tying its shoes.

:-)

[EvolveOrConvolve]

235. That's exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that post

Hysteria and fear win out over rationality every time with some people.

[defendandprotect]

285. Keep shoveling out the fanaticism . . .

thank you --!!!

[tigereye]

112. right, talking about thousands of children who died in the past and will in the

future, due to the lack of health care, availabilitv of basic, simple medications and vaccines, etc. is stupid.


Way to go.

[winyanstaz]

181. again..it is this set of shots people are worried about...

and it does not logically follow they are against ALL vaccines.

[tammywammy]

185. I would say there are plenty of people worried about all vaccines

There's even a poster on this thread calling vaccines "toxic."

[tigereye]

188. from what I have read, people have no more reason to fear this vaccine

than they do any other. :shrug:

[kestrel91316]

83. This has nothing to do with "morals". A doctor-client relationship is

a contract between a professional and a client, and parties are free to enter into that contract or not. "Divorcing" a client has always been an option. In the case of veterinarians, we just can't dump a hospitalized patient. But if they aren't in the hospital, we can send the client packing anytime we get fed up - just ask them to go elsewhere, provide a couple alternate clinic names and phone numbers, a copy of records, and send them off.

[tigereye]

109. they take an oath to offer their medical expertise backed by years and in

some cases, decades of experience, as well as to use the medical license they have earned.



The person who chooses not to vaccinate his or her child has already made the choice that they will expose their child to illnesses that have been primarily eradicated due to the broad use of vaccines, as well as expose other children to those same illnesses.

[kestrel91316]

73. It's not about morality. It IS about coming to someone for professional advice,

and then presuming to tell the professional that he/she is wrong and you are right.

[Better Today]

104. You start out right, but then you fail. It is about getting advice, but then

it's about a patient's right to choose their own medical options, medications, future, and direction.

The doctor is the hired contractor to the patient, not the patient's lord and savior.

[Chemisse]

216. Exactly - we hire them for advice about our health decisions

And those of us who live in rural areas don't have many options for medical care. If physicians start listing criteria for their patients and abandoned those who did not comply, where will they go to for care?

[defendandprotect]

82. Whoa . . . and if you're in a car accident, should the doctor ask you if you've had an abortion?

The great vengeful god, eh?

When people stop worshiping a god of violence and vengeance, maybe this world will

begin to embrace a health spirituality again --

Like, "Good Samartian" and "Help your neighbor" . . . ??

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" . . . ???

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

165. Trauma, vs stupid. They will take custody

if you refuse treatment based on some stupid religious shit like the JW's did. Wife went that route thrice in a major hospital in NC. This was not a trauma case.

[defendandprotect]

246. Why in any one's wisdom would a trauma case be any different from a

parent seeking advice and care from any doctor?

There should be no "moral" judgment involved in either.

In fact, if we're going to start making "moral" judgments, let's find out what

these doctors are making on the side from the vaccine companies.

Let's find out how much loot is being spilled into the pockets of physicians in

order to have one or another expensive medication recommended to their patients!

Let's explore some of those immoral connections.

Meanwhile -- PHARMACEUTICAL corporations are among our most active criminals, largely

engaged in defrauding government for windfall profits.

See: Sen. Bernie Sanders on that issue.

[HuckleB]

255. This post contains several assertions.

Please prove each one of them. If you can't, it would ethical for you to retract them.

[defendandprotect]

282. See Sen. Bernie Sanders for info on ALL pharmaceutical companies being involved in fraud . ..

vs Medicare/Medicaid --

Again, when people actually want info, they seek it --

[HuckleB]

298. Provide the evidence.

If you can't, why do you keep making these outlandish claims?

[SidDithers]

295. That poster never provides supporting evidence for their assertions...

so don't hold your breath waiting.

Sid

[HuckleB]

299. I'm getting that now.

I'm a bit slow.

[HuckleB]

251. Red herring alert.

[Xithras]

207. Funny that you should bring up abortion...

When my wife was pregnant with our last child, she had to fill out a patient history form with her OBGYN. On that form was the question "Have you ever undergone a surgical abortion?" My wife asked about the question, and the doctor told her that she didn't see patients who had undergone surgical abotions...ever. She said it had nothing to do with morality, and that she supported abortion rights. The problem? Women have a higher rate of complications from pregnancy after surgical abortions, and she didn't want the liability. Her insurance rates would have gone up if she treated pregnant women who'd had abortions in the past.

Ever notice how so many of societies ill's can be traced back to insurance companies?

[Oregone]

12. Isn't this protected by Bush's "right of conscience" rule?

Some of those kids may not even exist if the health care worker was not protected from denying a morning after pill

[winyanstaz]

51. And some women might not be dead from childbirth either.

[Oregone]

53. Cleary though, the greater moral evil is forcing a health practioner to practice health

If Bush said it, how could it be wrong?

[winyanstaz]

65. hahaa.. oh yes...good point :)

[defendandprotect]

91. Yes, let's have more health care workers judging others and imposing their "values" on others!!

And, of course, more necessary abortions and/or forced pregnancies when women

are DENIED a morning after pill -- !!!

If there is a CREATOR he is not a fascist -- you have been given free thought,

free will, free conscience -- and you are expected to use it.

Further, the CREATOR IS PRO-CHOICE . . . having supplied thru nature dozens of

ways to control reproduction, end conception, end pregnancies.

Natural plants -- in fact, RU486 is based on one of those natural means.

SO . . .

CREATOR NOT FASCIST

CREATOR PRO-CHOICE

Right wing authoritarians misguided!!

[winyanstaz]

16. This is bullshit...Drs could cause children to die by refusing to see a sick child..

There has never been a Dr. whos patients all obeyed them completly. They are not God. This is just wrong.

[Pavulon]

19. No, it is refusal of medical care

she can find a doctor who will treat her despite her stupidity. That all stops when she goes to put them in school.

[mzmolly]

108. No it's refusal to provide care.

eom

[Pavulon]

126. Yep, legal and correct. Short of correct. Informing DSS

would also be reasonable here. If the child was emergent they would not be at a GP anyway.

[mzmolly]

153. And what would DSS do when they determine no laws are broken?

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

180. Remember cancer kid, mommy would not treat. Preferred voodoo

emergency custody order. Wife has gone to DSS to get them before for refusal to treat trauma with transfusion or just general jeebus wackery. Never had one declined. LEO shows up and parents comply.

[mzmolly]

191. Big difference between not treating an existing disease

and demanding 100% compliance regarding so called preventive measures.

[Pavulon]

193. No school either..

all schools (even privates) require vaccine. So little johnny can go through life an idiot because of mommy.

[mzmolly]

196. No they don't. They require records stating whether or not you've been vaccinated.

eom

[Pavulon]

197. No vaccine no entry. That is how it works in NC from K - UNC (nt)

[mzmolly]

199. Every state has some kind of

exception, medical or religious grounds are allowed for refusal. That said, the vast majority of parents fully comply.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. No, PARENTS could cause their children (and others) to die...

...by refusing essential vaccinations, then demanding they be treated the same as normal, vaccinated children.

[mzmolly]

155. Are the "others" vaccinated

in your scenario?

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. But the doctor may be considering other patients' health, here. If you have kids

who have never gotten their MMR who have contracted Measles and they happen to be sitting in a waiting room with a new infant that hasn't yet been vaccinated, then that baby has just been put at risk for contracting the Measles too.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for a new specialty; doctors whose patient lists are comprised completely unvaccinated patients?

[tammywammy]

28. That's also mentioned in the article

Older children that aren't vaccinated and sick with infants in a waiting room.

[madrchsod]

29. one of the biggest cause of mental-physical retardation

was pregnant women exposed to german measles. since the vaccination program has been in effect for several generations pregnant women do not have to fear this anymore.

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. I know some people from the last generation in the USA to get Polio. Would

they have rather had the vaccine than been on crutches for life? My guess is yes.

I think the trouble is that we are a few generations down the line from the last people who saw the horrors that these illnesses inflicted on people, so we have lost the sense of amazement and gratefulness that they felt when vaccines became available. _If_ (and I have not seen evidence for this) but if there was a connection to autism and the vaccines then the answer is to change the vaccine. Why not have non-thimerosal vaccines available for those families who are concerned about it? It wasn't always used and yes it might be a pain to make vaccines without it again, but wouldn't that be better than having huge swaths of the public unvaccinated?

[winyanstaz]

39. Again...unless all children are checked for ALL vaccines at any given time...

there will always be children not vaccinated yet against one thing or another.
In the meantime...denying a child health-care because they are not obeying the doctor is just plain wrong.
A child could die just from that.

[Pavulon]

41. They can die across town. This was not an emergency, just the logical response to stupid

stupid is dangerous, they are led by jenny mcarthy whose only accomplishment was looking hot on tv back in the day, and passing a genetic disease to her kid and blaming something else. If the kid was emergent they would treat. if mommy is stupid she can go doctor shopping.

[GreenPartyVoter]

43. And a child could die from being exposed to those diseases. If parents kept up on their

kids' vaccines then there wouldn't be a risk in the waiting room.

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

69. It's not wrong

and it is entirely legal. A doctor can fire a patient when the patient disagrees with the doctor's course of action. That patient can be a hazard to infants who have not yet had all of their shots.

As far as not knowing what vaccinations anyone in the waiting room has and, therefore, not knowing if someone could be out there could have one of these disease, it should not happen in any well-run pediatric office. The doctor has the records for all of his/her regular patients, and should be pre-screening any new patients before they come in.

[winyanstaz]

45. good point...

I agree..why is it necessary to be putting mercury and other chemicals associated with autism in the vaccines anyways?
I read an article that the German army as well as the German government officials were able to get their vaccines WITHOUT the additives. Why cant the American people have those kinds of vaccines as well?

[Pavulon]

49. Dude, that is all crap. Like over the top insano

garbage. mercury is not in vaccines, mercury is not associated with autism. Jenny Mcarthy is not a reliable source of info. The CDC or jama is.

[Barack_America]

50. There are no chemicals associated with autism in our vaccines.

There is absolutely no credible scientific evidence that supports what you are claiming.

[winyanstaz]

54. There is a lot of evidence out there...like the huge number of autistic children for one...

We KNOW mercury is a poison. Some of us dont want crap stuck into our kids unless we know it is safe.
A lot of Doctors as well as nurses also agree.
Just look at the health-care workers on strike in England because they refuse to be forced vaccinated.

[Pavulon]

60. Sodium and Chlorine are poisons too

yet you put the deadly concoction on you food. The horror. The real pandemic involves stupidity and ignorance. Ever hear of oxygen toxicity? Yep it can kill you too.

[SidDithers]

61. Mercury isn't in vaccines...

some multi-dose vaccines have a compound of mercury, which is not elemental mercury. Just as a compound of sodium (sodium chloride) is safe to eat, but you wouldn't want to put elemental sodium in your mouth.

You might be marginally more credible if you knew basic chemistry.

Sid

[GreenPartyVoter]

64. My concern over the rise in the rate of Autism and the vaccine issue is that

_something_ environmental may be causing this. But to focus only on vaccines is a mistake. Heaven knows there are a lot of horrible things getting into and warping our bodies these days that should not be overlooked.

[Barack_America]

67. Just no evidence that stands up to scientific standards of evidence.

Did you know that everyone who drank milk in 1880 is dead? Every last one of them.

Best to stay away from that scary stuff, no?

Wow, other than being at severe risk of contracting life-threatening illnesses your kids must be quite healthy. I imagine they eat no fast food, no processed food, no ground beef, no dairy products or any food that might have dangerous stuff in it.

[sudopod]

117. So how do you know it's not MacDonald's or television or environmental pollutants? nt

[tigereye]

139. the high incidence rate of autism is not a result of vaccines...

no one is quite sure why the incidence rate is so high, although the availability of better early screening is a factor.

[Euromutt]

312. That is an utterly discredited hypothesis

In case you hadn't been paying attention, thimerosal preservative was removed from all vaccines on the regular schedule in 2001; it was done even earlier in Canada and Denmark. And in spite of that, rates of autism have not dropped in any of those countries. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but no correlation definitely means no causal relationship.

Since thimerosal has been proved to not be linked to autism to such a definitive degree that even the anti-vaxx lobby can't maintain that claim any more, they're now moving on to blaming aluminum adjuvants, and when that's been discredited, they'll move onto something else. This is a faith-based effort, not a fact-based one.

The simple fact is that there is no "autism epidemic." The increase in rates is simply the effect of improved awareness of what autism is, leading to fewer undiagnosed cases, plus a widening of the spectrum of disorders we call "autism."

Because mercury and aluminum are naturally occurring elements, children get more of either from breast milk than they get from the entire vaccination schedule. You'll inhale more formaldehyde standing on a busy city street for ten minutes than you'll get from any vaccination. As any toxicologist will tell you, "it's the dose that makes the poison," i.e. our bodies can handle at least minor amounts of damn near anything, including mercury. It takes way more mercury to cause harmful effects than would have been found in the pre-2001 schedule.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. I believe the thimerosal has to do with being able to store vaccines without keeping them in a

fridge but I may be wrong on that.

[kestrel91316]

89. Thimerosol got taken out of kids' vaccines years ago. It was a preservative

in multi-dose "tanks" (10 cc vials). Now vaccines are pretty much in single-dose vials which need no preservative.

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. Yes, it was starting to be phased out but still in the vaccines my kids got. My doctor

and I had a long talk about its safety, and since she had vaccinated all four of her kids I had concluded that it was fine to do mine too.

Thanks for pointing out that it is completely phased out now. Since I don't have infants anymore I haven't followed the story.

[tigereye]

143. thank you!

It saddens and worries me, however, that folks are unable to take information from or trust people who obviously have more information/training/ experience about these matters.

[kestrel91316]

87. Mercury has been OUT of US vaccines for quite a few years now.

Why are people still hallucinating about it??

[defendandprotect]

107. No . . . there are still traces of it in the vaccines. Vaccines themselves are toxic . ..

AND it seems many of the vaccines with the mercury remained on shelves for a

very long period of time!!!

They weren't junked -- they were used!!!

Also, we're just beginning to learn about "BAD BATCHES" of vaccines!!!

Pharmaceutical companies are as corrupt as any other corporation --

In fact, EVERY PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY doing business with Medicare/Medicaid has

been involved in defrauding government -- and we've had a few conspiracies, as well -

at least in the vitamin industry! See: Rep. Bernie Sanders for details on all of that!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

132. Are you seriously calling vaccines a toxin?

[Robb]

144. That's crazy talk. And irresponsible.

Perhaps more exclamations points would convince me...? :rofl:

[defendandprotect]

248. Well, your post certainly convinced me . . .

!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Barack_America]

150. Less than levels found in a tuna sandwich.

And a safer form of mercury than found in tuna.

Why have I not heard of a campaign against tuna?

[defendandprotect]

250. You haven't heard of the campaign against tuna? Pregnant women are advised NOT to

exceed certain amounts of it -- in fact ALL citizens should be aware of the mercury

levels in tuna and limit intake, if not abstain!!!


:eyes:

[HuckleB]

257. "Certain amounts."

What are those amounts, and how do they compare to what was and is in today's vaccines?

And will you begin a campaign against tuna sandwiches at day care centers and pre-schools?

Clearly, someone needs to do so at once!

[defendandprotect]

279. See the medical industry for the warnings . . .

because you seem to be somewhat confused that I'm personally against the tuna

industry!

What are those amounts? Well, that's an excellent question from a number

of different viewpoints. What were the mercury levels in the mothers who had

children who became autistic? Were the levels in the vaccines sufficient to push

the child into autism?

Should we know -- should everyone know what the levels of mercury are in our bodies?

And, I'd certainly suggest that if children are eating tuna in day care that mothers

should be aware of it and monitor it.



Happily, mothers are moving government and schools to improve the quality of the foods --

eliminating junk foods and sugar-syrupy cokes, etal --

Corporations have bought their way into our schools and mothers who understand what's

going on are forcing them out!

[tigereye]

135. some of those vaccines have had the additives removed despite the lack of

evidence that they contribute in any serious way to the development of autism.

[msanthrope]

151. Jeebus Christ. There's no mercury in vaccines.

And my kid had all the vaccines, no additives. Single shots. She has autism.

There is not a single credible, peer-reviewed study that links vaccines and autism. Go sell crazy elsewhere.

[defendandprotect]

106. Young girls made sure they got exposed to German measles if they'd never had them before . . .

THAT was the simple advice that doctors gave -- and young girls followed --

Usually you were exposed within the family or the neighborhood --

I never heard of one case -- other than the sensationalized case of a celebrity.

Who, by the way was exposed to it by someone in the military.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

231. You do understand that what you describe

is basically how vaccines work, except that the vaccines are far more safe than the actual disease? You're a hypocrite.

[defendandprotect]

252. Except that one is a natural means and the other is corporate-chemical ...

for profit --

The most natural way for children to develop immunities to disease is thru

breast milk from their Mother's. Even someone else's Mother!

And, where has patriarchal medicine been on that issue?

Fighting it like hell for the sake of formula profits around the world!!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

290. "Patriarchal medicine"????

Pray tell, what is that?

[Euromutt]

317. Foxglove, rattlesnake venom and horse dung are 100% natural too

Doesn't mean you'd want to put them in your body.

Besides, children don't develop immunities through breast milk; they get a supply of antibodies from breast milk, yes, and that does provide some protection, but once they off the milk, that protection ceases. You are aware, I trust, that infant mortality was massive even prior to the development of infant formula? The first infant formula was developed in 1867; in the 18th century, when breast-feeding by either the mother or a wet nurse was almost universal, the infant mortality rate in Great Britain and its American colonies was around 500/1,000 (i.e. 1 in 2 children died in infancy). These days, it's under 7/1,000. Care to hazard a guess why?

And, where has patriarchal medicine been on that issue?

Fighting it like hell for the sake of formula profits around the world!!

That must be why the WHO and the CDC (among others) recommend exclusive breast feeding for at least the first six months of a baby's life. :sarcasm:

And I'm not willing to accept that the existence of infant formula is necessarily a bad thing, given that my wife had "lactation insufficiency"; i.e. she simply could not produce enough breast milk to come even close to adequately feeding our infant son. Yeah, I'm happy we could fall back on formula.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

200. There is still "slap cheek" (AKA Fifths Desease)

[winyanstaz]

37. exactly as not all children are vaccinated at the same time for

all of the things kids can get.

[defendandprotect]

115. Nurses know that doctors transmit disease by not washing their hands after treating a patient--!!

That's how my friend's new born child got measles!!

PLUS, anytime a child is infectious, they should be kept in a separate area.

Have you ever walked into a doctor's office and left because everyone was so closely

confined and ill?

And, how do we even know that someone coming in for a flu shot doesn't already have

the flu and is spreading it?

24 hours?

48 hours?

[Pavulon]

121. Here years ago it was illegal workers afraid

so their kids begin getting sick with measles and rubella. So the state did an outreach and promised that this was not immigration, guess what. No more measles outbreaks in hispanic populations.

Call the CDC that was a federally funded program and study in NC.

[defendandprotect]

253. Which reminds of me of another friend whose baby doctor used to put money in his mouth . . .

dollar bills while counting change . . .!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

183. So because there is some small incidence of people contracting diseases that way, it's

okay to stop vaccinating people and therefore open ourselves up to a much larger chance of incidence?

That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying since you have a chance at surviving a game of Russian Roulette while playing with one bullet, why not fill up 4 more chambers with bullets as well?

[defendandprotect]

254. What in the heck do you think is going on in our hospitals. . . ???

Do you know how many people go into hospitals for one thing and become ill with

another?

How many newborns do you think the doctor infected that day?

Only my friend's?

You're presuming that these corporate vaccines are and the pressures put on the FDA

are something different from what corporations did to "science" re Global Warming and

EPA levels at Ground Zero.

Corporations are causing calamity and destruction with everything they touch.

We need to explore vaccines more completely --

And we certainly need to explore the damage being done to children with autism and

many dead from "bad batches" of these vaccines!

We also need to question whether the huge numbers of children troubled with attention deficit

disorders are related to these vaccines.

And, we certainly need to look very closely at the "batches" -- and the "batteries" -- and

the very young ages where these batteries of vaccines are being given.





"Only fools never doubt" --
Shakespeare

[HuckleB]

272. None of that answers the question posed by the previous post.

[defendandprotect]

275. You mean we should all presume that corporations and chemical medicine are benign . . .?

That corporations are infallible --

and that "for profit" medicine on every level is altruistic?

That viruses don't mutate in order to rebound -- and that scientists

haven't been warning us of this over decades now?

[HuckleB]

277. Thanks for the additional red herrings.

:eyes: :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

280. Corporate altruism is something of a "red herring" in itself -- !!!

Good luck with that -- !!

[HuckleB]

302. Pointless cliches all you got?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. They could endanger other children by having unvaccinated children run amok in the waiting room.

[winyanstaz]

36. That has been the case always.....

At any given time there is a child or two that has not had a vaccine against one thing or another..not all children get vaccinated at the exact same time for all things...so that argument cannot stand.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. And when it becomes known to the physicians they have a duty to reduce the threat.

[Barack_America]

58. But the number of unvaccinated kids running around heightens the threat...

...for all of us.

The current vaccination guidelines are a balance between when a child's immune system is mature enough to get the best response to the vaccine and the probability of them getting the disease before being vaccinated. At the current levels of population vaccination, the risk of children being exposed to a disease before being vaccinated is low, but increasing the number of unvaccinated kids throws that all off. I absolutely agree with the pediatrician not wanting that increased risk of exposure to occur in his or her own waiting room.

It's the same rationale behind kids not being allowed to attend school without being vaccinated. Schools are absolutely correct to keep them out as they present a real health risk to the other children.

[ipaint]

157. That's incorrect.

"Getting the measles is no walk in the park, either — not for you or those who come near you. In 2005, a 17-year-old Indiana girl got infected on a trip to Bucharest, Romania. On the return flight home, she was congested, coughing, and feverish but had no rash. The next day, without realizing she was contagious, she went to a church gathering of 500 people. She was there just a few hours. Of the 500 people present, about 450 had either been vaccinated or had developed a natural immunity. Two people in that group had vaccination failure and got measles. Thirty-two people who had not been vaccinated and therefore had no resistance to measles also got sick. Did the girl encounter each of these people face-to-face in her brief visit to the picnic? No. All you have to do to get the measles is to inhabit the airspace of a contagious person within two hours of them being there.

The frightening implications of this kind of anecdote were illustrated by a 2002 study published in The Journal of Infectious Diseases. Looking at 3,292 cases of measles in the Netherlands, the study found that the risk of contracting the disease was lower if you were completely unvaccinated and living in a highly vaccinated community than if you were completely vaccinated and living in a relatively unvaccinated community. Why? Because vaccines don’t always take. What does that mean? You can’t minimize your individual risk unless your herd, your friends and neighbors, also buy in."

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1


Your lack of facts, logic and proof to back up any of your claims is astonishing and dangerous.

[winyanstaz]

194. I am not against measles or small pox or other known to be fairly safe vaccines...

I am against THIS set of vaccines as a patient was applied for and recieved TWO years before the disease was reported in the public sectors.
I am against THIS set of vaccines because I also see a lot of Doctors and nurses now coming out against this one.
I am not going to take the vaccine as 1. I have been exposed to swine flu and did not get it.
2. The first and only flu shot I ever got made me deathly ill and I suffered from flus and colds for years until I went all natural and now I don't get them.
3. Two relatives have had the swine flu and reported it was not that bad except for the diarrhea and that is was not as bad as regular flu they had gotten in the past.
4. I am not going to stick chemicals in my body unless they have been TESTED.
5. Bayer drug company was already BUSTED once for shipping out live virus in their flu shots.
6. Bush rushed a law into place just in time for this shot so the drug companies can NOT be sued if their vaccines make you sick, kill you or deform you.
7. I like to think for myself.
8. I do not trust these set of shots when they are making and giving out TWO different versions of the same shot. One WITH additives..and one WITHOUT.
9. Obama got a regular flu shot..but NOT the swine flu shot.
10. The German government along with the German army were given a swine flu shot WITHOUT the additives..but the people must take one WITH the additives.
11. I know my government lies to us.
12. I know they have a lot of camps built and stocked and Haliburton has the contracts.
13. They have fields of hundreds of thousands of coffins..waiting for ?????

How do you know which one you are getting? You DON"T until it is already in your body.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

233. Dayum, that's probably the most hyperbolic post I've every read here at DU

Congratulations, you win the award for the most outrageous, hysteria filled post I've ever read on the intertubes. A whole lot of bullshit, half-truths, logical fallacies, hysteria, and urban legend all wrapped up in one post. Neato!

[SidDithers]

301. Seconded...

that post made my eyes hurt.

Sid

[winyanstaz]

71. oh sure...or in the shopping malls...or in schools...or on the bus...or in the neighborhood....

Let's just lock up all the babies until we shoot their little bodies with enough chemicals that they can be deemed safe.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. You still haven't figured this whole thing out about a Dr.'s responsibility to their patients.

It's not the kids that haven't yet been vaccinated or the ones that the Dr. hasn't yet examined. It's about the kid, who's parents have refused to have vaccinated, knowingly sitting in a waiting room with an infectious disease and spreading that disease to a child who is too young or too sick to be vaccinated.

[winyanstaz]

113. sorry but you are assuming that child had an infectious disease.

If the Doctor refuses to treat sick kids..just because they havent had the shot yet..that is just wrong as well.
That is like saying...your child gets the measles before they had their measle shot and the Doctor should kick them out and refuse to help them.
There is a simple solution besides denying a child health-care.
Why not simply have seperate rooms for sick kids to wait in instead of lumping them all in the same room?
That's a larg part of the trouble with todays medical care. Hospitals are sometimes known to be dangerious places simply because all the sick are mixed in together in one big building.
It would be far better for the Doctors to travel like they used to and keep the patients seperated in the first place.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

127. I'm not assuming anything, I put forth a hypothetical situation.

[sudopod]

120. In the 21st century, people live to be 80 for a reason.

Can you think of what that might be?

[defendandprotect]

118. And do you want to included the endless boosters in that recommendation?

Any infectious child should be separated from the general waiting room --

Any patient right now -- or parent may have already contracted flu and not know it!

That's true of any disease, any patient, any parent!

You can see where this right-wing authoritarianism finally leads!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. It's the Dr.'s medical practice he can treat who he wants. No authoritarianism there.

[tigereye]

missing the "right-wing authoritarianism" piece here...

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

256. Think you need to do a little reading higher up on the thread . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

310. Still missing it. Quote it please.

[HuckleB]

263. What about where BS propaganda leads?

[kestrel91316]

86. Physicians of course must render aid in a genuine medical emergency.

In which case, Mom needs to go to the ER and not the pediatrician's office. If it's not a life-threatening emergency, doc is free to send the parent elsewhere. But in order to avoid an unpleasant situation, sending them away when there is no crisis in the parent's eyes is best.

[defendandprotect]

93. You weren't supposed to notice that .... as this authoritarian thread rolls along -- !!!

:)

[tammywammy]

182. In an emergency a doctor is required to help

Someone coming in for their regular check up that's not sick, it's perfectly fine for the doctor to turn them away.

[defendandprotect]

258. Where does it say that an emergency room doctor can judge you based on his "morals"???

We're not only talking about militant protection of corporate-chemical-vaccines . . .

We're talking about a doctor refusing to treat a patient where there was an abortion!!

[HuckleB]

261. Your response does not make sense as a response to the post you responded to...

[defendandprotect]

274. Neither does yours . . .

I think you need to read some material from further up on the thread ...

[HuckleB]

276. Say what?

Read the post. Then read your post. It's not hard to see, if you look.

[defendandprotect]

281. Or not . . .

[HuckleB]

300. Oh brother.

Are you just trolling?

[tammywammy]

316. Um, no we weren't talking about a doctor refusing to treat a patient where there was a abortion

The original poster you replied to said:

"This is bullshit...Drs could cause children to die by refusing to see a sick child..
There has never been a Dr. whos patients all obeyed them completly. They are not God. This is just wrong."

You said:

"You weren't supposed to notice that .... as this authoritarian thread rolls along -- !!!"

I said:

"In an emergency a doctor is required to help
Someone coming in for their regular check up that's not sick, it's perfectly fine for the doctor to turn them away."


So, no mention of abortion or morals in the posts.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

129. Child was there for a check up not an illness.

[Pavulon]

17. Yep she will find public schools and universities act the same way..

then DSS gets involved. Stupid on her part.

[Barack_America]

44. Seriously, where do these kids get sent for school?

Private tutors and such might be fine for the monied Ms. McCarthy, but what about the millions of parents she's terrifying with her BS?

[defendandprotect]

123. dupe

And what about the children of the private tutor?

And what about the likelihood of a tutor who coaches numerous children among

many family units bringing along the germs of a flu or childhood disease without knowing it??

Again -- the authoritarians end up sliding down the slope of authoritarian fanaticism ....

where do they stop? Non-vaccination ghettos with entire families confined . . . forever?

[defendandprotect]

125. Well, we can start non-vaccinated ghettos, perhaps ... isolating the families from society?

And what about the children of the private tutor?

And what about the likelihood of a tutor who coaches numerous children among

many family units bringing along the germs of a flu or childhood disease without knowing it??

Again -- the authoritarians end up sliding down the slope of authoritarian fanaticism ....

where do they stop? Non-vaccination ghettos with entire families confined . . . forever?

[Barack_America]

133. If it is their choice to isolate themselves...

Then I guess they'll be isolated.

[defendandprotect]

260. Isn't that what the Vatican said about the Jews and their Jewish ghettos?

[Pavulon]

134. That is called sudan. What really happens is emergency custody orders

happens from time to time in emergency rooms with religious fools. Has already been applied to anti vaxer kooks if memory serves. Pretty simple, if you want to come home and stab a screwdriver into you eye for jesus or to get the thermisol out you can. You cant go blinding your little kids, or refuse transfusion, or treatment for NH lymphoma.

That is how western medicine works. That means europe too. So I guess you san move to nigeria, dprc, or sudan to get away from it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. Add mexico

we had an emergency custody order for a kid of a Jehovah Witness family, who needed blood to live after a major accident.

he was under 18 the state took over custody...

And I hated that on moral grounds, but the interest of the child came first. Oh and the legal system crawls, we had the judge's order in twenty minutes flat.

[tammywammy]

218. My best friend is a pediatrician

And in her first few months in residency she had a Jehovah Witness with sickle cell that needed a transfusion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. I was lucky, as a medic I had three different occasions

where I dealt with them. One was this kid... the other two were adults.

The kid, guv'ment took over... adults, signed the AMA...

They died.

But as adults they were fully aware of their decisions. As hard as it was to watch them die very preventable deaths, we respected them. Hell, we had the priest in the ER with one of them when he passed.

[tammywammy]

224. She'd only been in residency a few months

It was difficult for her. I can't remember how old she said he was, but it wasn't his first time to need a blood transfusion, the hospital the previous time did go to court to force it, otherwise he would have died then too.

[Robb]

147. Perhaps we can put them next to the smokers. nt

[defendandprotect]

262. Remember when smoking used to be 'DOCTOR RECOMMENDED' ?????

[Euromutt]

318. No, because I'm not old enough

Neither, I suspect, are you.

Frankly, I suspect one of the biggest setbacks to research on the negative effects of smoking was that some of the ground-breaking work was done by Nazis, and fervently embraced by the Nazi party (the Nazis mounted the first major anti-smoking campaign in history), as a result of which, nobody wanted to touch the subject or the research findings for the better part of twenty years.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I'm sure they can find a homeopathic "specialist" willing to treat them. n/t

[tammywammy]

25. They did, at the end of the article it says they went to one. n/t

[madrchsod]

22. to bad these parents put their child at risk.

there`s plenty of creditable scientific studies easily accessible on google that refutes the quacks and dumb ass celebrities about vaccinations. in all my searches on this issue i have never found one creditable scientific-peer reviewed study that links vaccines to autism.

i have watched my best friends daughter spend over a 100,000 dollars in over two years on these charlatans.after all the treatments the child is no better than he was before. it`s almost to the point where they will spend any amount of money to relieve them of their unfounded guilt of having a child that is different and in their quest for the miracle cure.

[blondeatlast]

32. I was "fired" many years ago for being a non-compliant diabetic--and my doctor was right to do it.

Good for the docs.

[HuckleB]

220. Exactly. The same thing happens in mental health.

Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, counselors can all "fire" their clients if the relationship isn't right. For that matter, so can physical therapists, occupational therapists, acupuncturists, massage therapists.

It makes no sense for people to bang their heads on the wall forever.

[ipaint]

34. The decision not to vaccinate puts other children at risk.

A trendy way to die

So why are parents so quick to make such bad decisions for their children when it comes to this issue? And why does there seem to be a connection between zip code and vaccination rates? Unlike most of the world, where vaccination rates are directly proportionate to socioeconomic status, it appears that may not always be the case here in NYC, and probably other urban centers around the country. Typically, under-vaccination has been found to be most prevalent in inner city, black children with unwed teenage mothers, while un-vaccinated children have tended to come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds, and have mothers who are married with a college degree <6>. The reasons for this are that under-vaccination has typically been a result of poor access to good health care continuity for children at or below the poverty level. Non-vaccination is usually a result of a decision made by a parent who has major concerns about vaccine safety, and who is empowered to reject the expert advice of authority. Such strong, anti-vaccine positions were once confined to a very small subset of the population. Complete vaccine refusal remains, fortunately, a relatively rare occurrence in the US. But under-vaccination is being seen increasingly now in communities where being up-to-date with vaccinations was a once given and, in fact, a marker of the highly educated and socially aware. Now, as more and more socio-economically advantaged, empowered, parents play with the vaccine schedule, cherry-picking which vaccines to give and when, the problem of childhood under-vaccination may be changing from being predominantly a result of inner-city poverty, to that of cultural elitism. In other words, we are experience a very dangerous fad, where it is now trendy to question the advice of one’s doctor, and to mistrust medical experts in general. Of course children are the ultimate victims.


Measles

Soon after the infamous Wakefield paper was published in 1998, vaccination rates against measles, mumps, and rubella, plummeted in the U.K. Outbreaks of these diseases began popping up all over the region, eventually reaching epidemic proportions. And, although the fictional link between the MMR and autism arose over 10 years ago, there’s no sign that things are getting any better. Last year saw the highest incidence of measles cases in the UK in over 20 years, all due to pockets of underimmunization resulting from media coverage of Wakefield’s discredited findings. Predictably, it wasn’t long before the wave of fear reached our shores. Although not as widespread, this uprising against vaccines, based on nothing but pseudo-science and newly spawned campaigns of misinformation, began to create a dangerous climate of vaccine refusal here in the U.S. It didn’t take long for outbreaks of mumps and measles to occur in areas scattered throughout the country. In 2006, the largest outbreak of mumps in over 15 years, centered in Iowa and involving 10 other states, effected over 2,500 people. Last year, measles cases in 15 states contributed to the largest US outbreak in over 10 years. In Brooklyn, an unimmunized traveler from Israel infected other unimmunized children in a pediatrician’s office, sparking the borough’s largest outbreak of measles in almost 20 years. Other recent outbreaks in Indiana, San Diego, Arizona, Milwaukee, Washington State, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Texas are just the tip of the iceberg if this dangerous trend of vaccine refusal continues.

Hib

Much to the horror of pediatricians, recent outbreaks of invasive disease due to Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) have brought back this dreaded scourge. Hib is an extremely nasty bacterium that used to cause invasive disease in a startling 1 of every 200 children in the U.S. under 5 years of age. That was, until the vaccine pretty much eliminated it from our country after its introduction in the late 1980s. The vaccine has been so successful, that pediatricians my age and younger have likely never even seen a case of invasive Hib disease. Not true for those trained just a few years earlier. They remember that, of the children unfortunate enough to come down with invasive Hib disease, approximately two-thirds will develop meningitis, and about 5% will die. Up to 30% of the survivors suffer permanent brain damage. Those children lucky enough to avoid meningitis develop pneumonia, septic arthritis, osteomyelitis, cellulitis, epiglottitis, or generalized sepsis. Now, because of pockets of underimmunization and the spread of so-called “alternative” vaccine schedules, younger pediatricians will be able to learn, first-hand, about a disease they could previously only read about in text books.

Pertussis

Pertussis, or whooping cough, is one vaccine preventable disease that still circulates with high prevalence despite the existence of a good vaccine. In fact, the incidence of pertussis is actually increasing in the U.S. There are several reasons for this, including inadequate vaccination of infants, waning of vaccine-induced immunity in adolescents and adults, and a high frequency of undiagnosed pertussis infection that can lead to spread of disease to susceptible individuals. Another reason is that, although an adolescent/adult version of the vaccine (Tdap) is now recommended and routinely given to children 11 years of age and older to boost their immunity, similar recommendations to vaccinate all adults are usually unheeded by internists and obstetricians. This is a major problem, because infants and children (in whom pertussis can be an extremely severe disease) are infected by adults whose immunity to pertussis has waned. Anecdotally, I can tell you that most of the physicians I’ve spoken to who take care of adults, are not even aware of these recommendations (I’m currently working on a study of knowledge and attitudes of obstetricians about the Tdap vaccine.) Now, add to this the changing attitude of parents concerning vaccines, and we have a dangerous set-up for an even worse scenario with regard to the future of pertussis control in this country. Not surprisingly, it has been shown that when parents refuse or delay the pertussis vaccine for their children, these children have a significantly higher risk of developing pertussis <7>. The danger of an increasing incidence of pertussis is that, while it is an extremely annoying disease for adults, it’s an extremely dangerous one for infants and young children, in whom complications are much more common and include pneumonia, dehydration, encephalopathy, cerebral hemorrhage, and death.

http://www.nycskeptics.org/blog/?p=1078

“Increasing pockets of under-immunized children are occurring throughout the country, due to a growing wave of misinformation about vaccine risks. This puts all children at risk from serious, fully preventable diseases. If your child is not following the recommended schedule of vaccines, please notify the front desk, as this places the other children in the waiting room at risk.”

[winyanstaz]

42. When the doctors themselves do NOT all agree on the safety of vaccines...

it makes it hard for a parent to know.
We need a list of the total amount of chemicals and dead viruses we are sticking in kids during the length of their childhood.
I think most people would be amazed.

[Pavulon]

46. We all agree sudan is fucked up. If you take your baby there

there is a great chance it will die of some disease that it would never get here. I have a problem with the stupid parasites who make these choices, they are turning our system into a third world disaster one stupid call at a time. Want polio, you can get it there. Ever here of smallpox, ever have it? know why, because we eradicated it with vaccines.

Seriously these people need DSS referrals or a ticket to Khartoum.

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. And there should be accompanying pictures of deformed and dead kids so that

parents can make a well-informed decision.

It looks like the UK does something like that on their vaccination info website.


http://www.southstaffordshirepct.nhs.uk/YourHealth/vacImms/photo/polio.asp

[winyanstaz]

81. I have a friend that was born with his arms on backward and twisted....

His arms are like sticks. His mom was given some kind of shots (I forget what) that were given to a lot of moms at the time while he was in the womb.
Not every shot they tell us to have is safe.
I think most parents are just waiting and wanting to know for sure before they gamble on their kids lives.
Just because a parent doesn't rush out and get the flu shot..doesnt mean they don't rush out and get the measle vaccines etc.
It is not that they are against ALL shots.
Just this UNTESTED virus vaccine they are in such a big rush to shove down our throats.
You do know that the drug companies applied for and got a patient for this shot BEFORE it was even known what virus was out there don't you?
How could they have KNOWN two years before?
And why was Bush administration rushing to give the drug companies immunity?
Also I want to know why there are TWO types of virus flu shots out there (google: German troops and government officials get flu shot without the additives) and how do we know which one we are given?
Why did Obama just get a regular flu shot and not this new swine flu one?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Sheeple rush to comply

[Pavulon]

88. Your friend vs half a BILLION from smallpox alone.. Just one disease

this is the end result of your logic. Look to the shithole sudan to see it in practice. If you really want to know CALL THE CDC. They will give you real answers. If you are just spraying a stream of stupidity you should try another approach. That is a massive number, it pales the death from ww2, that is almost two orders of magnitude more than the hiroshima blast.

[defendandprotect]

128. Who but you is arguing against smallpox vaccine- or polio vaccine?

While these drug companies should all be regulated and highly controlled

we are basically talking about the many batteries of vaccines which are now

given to children for normal childhood diseases . . .

[Pavulon]

140. Polio WAS a normal childhood disease.

at some point AIDS will be relegated to the same pile as smallpox. Lots of what was normal disease in the early part of the 20th century had been wiped out. wait for it.. by VACCINES created by EVIL companies regulated by the EVIL government.

They are REGULATED.

[defendandprotect]

264. Polio was not the equivalent of mumps, measles, whooping cough ....

In fact, right now cases of mumps are rising again.

We have no idea what the long term effects of these vaccines may be.

Again, natural immunity for newborns from childhood disease is more naturally

obtained from Mother's milk!


I'm sure we all trust the for-profit health care industry --

and corporations everywhere running our government!!

Since when are they "regulated"?????

Serious regulation of the industry was overturned long ago --

And, perhaps, you think evidence of "bad batches" of vaccines are proof of regulation????

Further, as we've come to recognize, these are CARTELS . . . corporate cartels!!!

We need an overturning of that privilege -- and RE-REGULATION -- REAL REGULATION!!!

[winyanstaz]

158. exactly..these people are ranting about all vaccines...

when it is only THIS ONE that people are leary of.

[Pavulon]

162. NO first MMR, then swine flu. seems like teh stupid has mutated into a new strain(nt)

[winyanstaz]

173. and once again...we will spell it out for you SLOOOWLY...

NO ONE is against small pox vaccines..and we are not against vaccines in general.
We are leary of THIS set of shots..and for damned good reason.
I guess you missed where Bayer drug was BUSTED for shipping out shipments of LIVE swine flu viruses? Or the people that are coming down with nurological damages up to being paralized after getting these shots?
I guess you are in such a huff to get everyone to get a shot because you own stock..or sheesh...I think you must be a paid government scare mongering shill pushing for everyone to stick unknown chemicals into their body just on the government's say so.

[Pavulon]

186. Goddamn. You are aware of the internet.. there are two versions

a live virus and dead virus. You take the one that is the best medical fit. I just hate stupidity, there is enough of it.

Got a link to that BAYER story??

[GreenPartyVoter]

90. Oh I understand what you are saying, and I agree. Make sure the resources are

the best possible and strictly regulated, but also give hefty consideration to herd immunity.

Sadly, it is generally through experiences like your friends that people discover there is a problem. My mother miscarried after taking birth control pills back in the 60s which were far stronger than what we have now. And from what I understand they may have been implicated in some birth defects too, although I admit that was hearsay and not from a report.

I think sometimes we just don't know that something needs to be tested because it never occurs to anyone that there will be a problem, such as with birth control pills, or dumping mercury in a fishing ground and assuming that it will be ok to eat the fish because hey, the ocean is huge so it'll just clean things up.

[defendandprotect]

98. And now, we're also learning about the "BAD BATCH" problems .. .!!!!

[ipaint]

100. Which doctors?

The ones that show up on Prison Planet TV like Dr. Blaylock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Blaylock

"zero special expertise in microbiology, immunology and the clinical study of vaccines."

Or the one that faked these results:

"If you want to know where the current ridiculous anti-vaccination scare came from, there's one well known source: Andrew Wakefield. He published a paper in 1998 that claimed there was a link between vaccination and autism that was a popular sensation, and had a dramatic effect.

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper's impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire "herd immunity" from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated. Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

Now for some shocking news — it looks like the data may have been faked.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children's conditions.
However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children's ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/anti-vax_study_a_case_of_scien.php


Snake oil sales men and women.

[defendandprotect]

131. The ones you're basically ignoring -- including the many studies which have been done ...

which should connections between vaccines and autism.

There is a universe of exploration to be done on the vaccines already being given

to children -- and we had better begin that exploration soon because the cases are

piling up everywhere the vaccines go!!

Pharmaceutical companies are corporations -- for profit corporations -- and are not

above defrauding government.

[ipaint]

141. Oh please, one link to a study? n/t

[Pavulon]

145. Link to ONE STUDY from a US university or FDA, CDC, or other

finding that reports this link and correlates any ingredient to autism. I see a doctor in the back of Car and Driver , two actually, one sells pheremone get laid juice, the other pecker pills. Both have an MD after their names. Can i link their studies?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

234. I'd also like to see your "studies"

If they're as worthless as the "science" you've shown in the past to defend yourself, then I'm wasting my breath.

[defendandprotect]

265. I'd suggest anyone interested should resurrect an old threatd or hit google . ..

[EvolveOrConvolve]

291. I can find the same bullshit studies you've produced before

None of which come close to meeting the minimum requirements to match your claims.

[HuckleB]

259. Me TOO!

Please show us these studies! THANKS!

[defendandprotect]

266. Let me suggest that if you're truly interested ...

in what the other side has to say on vaccines and the numerous studies

you'd already have the info --

try google --

[HuckleB]

268. So you can't cite one?

[defendandprotect]

273. Try Congress ...

there are many studies over decades which support the connections between

vaccines and autism --

or, go to the archives here --

[HuckleB]

278. So you can't cite one?

Not one?

[Freddie Stubbs]

138. Then the mother should simply take her children to one of the doctors who does not agree

Problem solved!

[HuckleB]

267. That's like arguing that scientists don't agree that humans have affected climate.

Please.

[mzmolly]

111. Not if the "other children" are vaccinated.

Unless of course you haven't much confidence in vaccines?

[tammywammy]

177. Infants could have not reached the age to even be vaccinated.

They could catch a disease from an older child who's parents chose to not vaccinate them and are sick.

[mzmolly]

195. Or they could catch a disease from a vaccinated child, or an adult

who's not up to date on boosters.

It's mythical to presume that everyone who's been vaccinated is immune to XYZ. There is http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/3/455">scientific data showing that vaccination rates as high as 97% often fail to protect. Who do we blame in that case?

[LynneSin]

55. I'd like to know how this woman knows her son got Autism from the vaccine

Mind you, I'm not really heavy into the whole vaccine argument although most stuff I've ready made a very weak connection between autism and vaccines. I mean here's the thing - something like 99.9% of all children are going to receive vaccinations AND some of them are going to be Austic Children. How can anyone assume it's the vaccination. I mean 99.9% of those kids will also eat strained veggies in their lifetime too - should we blame Autism on that. And 99.9% of those kids are going to have a really messy diaper at least once, should we make the connection there too? And 99.9% of those kids will probably be given a binky in their lifetime - can we attribute that to Autism?

I just don't get it.

[Barack_America]

75. Autism is often first noticed around the time kids get vaccinated.

So for people with poor skills in logic, they must be related.

Personally, I think autism causes kids to get vaccinated.

Why not? There's just as much support in the scientific literature for my position as there is the opposite.

[ipaint]

79. She doesn't know.

"There is not enough room to discuss the origins of that myth here (stay tuned for a future entry on that voluminous subject), but suffice it to say that there really is no controversy among respected scientists and physicians. If you follow an evidence-based approach to medical decision making, there is no conclusion to draw other than that absolutely no such link exists. As for the issue of the vaccine preservative thimerosal being a cause of autism, again the data do not demonstrate any evidence of a link. On a multitude of levels there is ample reason to reject any link between thimerosal and autism:

1. All of the legitimate studies to date have failed to demonstrate any link. That’s a pretty good reason right there:
* Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
* Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
* Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom
Does Not Support a Causal Association
* Safety of Thimerosal Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases


2. The apparent increase in autism cases has continued even after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines.
* Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
* Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
* Pervasive Developmental Disorders is Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations


3. Finally, and a usually neglected part of the story, the kind of mercury contained in thimerosal (ethylmercury) is very different from the kind produced by industrial pollution, and that ends up in the fish you eat (methylmercury). While methylmercury becomes concentrated in the body’s tissues (most importantly the brain) and thus remains for prolonged periods, ethylmercury is much more rapidly eliminated, and is therefore much less readily stored by the body. Recent studies have demonstrated just how different the pharmacokinetic properties of these two types of mercury are in the bodies of infants. This is important when we consider the US EPA “reference dose” (RfD) for mercury. This is the upper level daily amount, over a lifetime, of a substance that is considered safe to the most sensitive individuals in a population. The RfD for mercury set by the EPA is 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. Many people who believe the thimerosal-autism link point to the fact that, before thimerosal was removed from vaccines, some infants received a total daily dose of mercury from vaccines that came close to or exceeded the EPA’s RfD for mercury. Keep in mind, however, that the RfD was based on long-term, life-time daily exposures, not one time or even multiple time exposures. Also, as a safety factor the RfD was set 10 times higher than the actual estimated safe level. But most importantly, the RfD for mercury is based on data for methylmercury, not ethylmercury. That is, all the assumptions about the hypothetical dangers of exceeding the RfD for mercury, on potentially a few occasions, are based on an RfD for the wrong kind of mercury. As discussed above, the data on the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury suggests a very different, and far less concerning picture for thimerosal in vaccines."

http://rationaleyes.org/2008/03/17/as-the-world-turns-into-irrational-fearmongers/

This is an older blog of the doctor I link to above. Links to all the studies are in the blog.

[defendandprotect]

137. No . . . we have an autism epidemic . . .

that isn't something that occurs from DNA links --

You should read the stories of parents -- this is always happening AS the child gets
the vaccines. That's the instant/immediate change in the child's behavior, wellness.

Huge increases in autism -- wherever the vaccines go.

Mercury in the vaccines was one cause -- there remained trace amounts of mercury in
the vaccines even after it was removed. PLUS they didn't junk the original vaccines...
continued to use them!

The FDA admitted that they really don't know -- but they continued on with the mercury!

You're comparing strained vegetables and diarrhea with mercury in vaccines?

Vaccines are toxic, in themselves!!

Any parent gets this -- and every new parent these days has immense concerns re this issue!

[ipaint]

142. Links to scientific studies proving your claims??? n/t

[uppityperson]

283. "very new parent these days has immense concerns re this issue!"? Wrong

Only some, only some.

[defendandprotect]

72. This is corporate/Monsanto-FDA "medicine" at work . . .

money and fear -- and doctors who are too well trained in the rubrics of chemical medicine...

and too frightened to buck the system.

[Pavulon]

77. Hey, you ever get smallpox? Polio? (graphic)

ever wonder why. This person is a corpse within hours of this photo. This is the result of this stupid vaccine trend.

[vadawg]

119. the anti vaxxers would have you believe all this child needs is vitamin D

only fucking idiots would ever think this...

[defendandprotect]

149. Yeah, because what idiot would believe in something natural . . . Wow!!

You know where a newborn gets natural immunities -- ?

From its mother, thru breast feeding.

Patriarchal medicine has not encouraged breast feeding --

Who's "stupid" . . . ??



:eyes:

[Pavulon]

159. Umm did you take any formal science at any level. even 10 grade

chemistry would do. do you think a vaccine is unnatural. It is not created from dark matter.

[defendandprotect]

164. Are you saying newborns don't gain immunities from breastfeeding?

Or are you simply pro-corporate and pro-for profit vaccines?

[Pavulon]

172. Immunity to swine flu, smallpox, or polio?

i know exactly how that works, and know that none of those antibodies are in breast-milk right now. Because mom has not built antibodies yet. HIV WILL transmit through breastmilk as well, alive and well.

You are in over your head.

[vadawg]

184. rofl, i was wondering where the breast milk thing was going

[defendandprotect]

269. When did breastfeeding stop?

Wake up!

So will rocket fuel be present in breast milk in 37 states . . .

that's because corporations and our government do their jobs so well!!!

At the time of the polio epidemic, no one was breastfeeding in America.

It was already formula drive.

No -- corporations and their corruption is way over our heads in America and

it's time to stop and truly investigate what's going on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. Patriarchal medicine IS encouraging breast feeding right now

it has over the last at least thirty years. Next...

By the way, an OD of Vit D will KILL YOU...

[defendandprotect]

270. Right ... after decades and more of destroying that natural art . . . for formula . ..

and its profits worldwide.

And, we've had a return to breastfeeding not because of government and not because

of patriarchal medicine -- but because of the women's movement.

See: Women, Our Bodies, Ourselves --

Male medicine is based on their usual MO . . . slash and burn, attack and destroy.

Unfortunately, what it mainly destroys is nature and humanity!



Where did I mention Vitamin D?

[defendandprotect]

146. Why don't you show us some more fear-mongering photos . . . probably we can't take it???

Again, only YOU are talking about smallpox and polio vaccines --

we do know there were tremendous problems with even the POLIO vaccine --

Perhaps even more tremendous than we can imagine . . . if we ever begin to

sufficiently explore how the African polio vaccines were contaminated ...

possibly causing HIV/AIDS.

Possibly now being linked to cancer?

What we ARE talking about right now are the senseless batteries of vaccines

given to children for normal childhood diseases. In fact, if we had more breast

feeding of children they would probably have more natural immunity from their mother's.

So -- we eliminated breast feeding? And what did we get?

Substituting corporate-chemical medicine for Mother Nature is never going to work.

What we need to do is stop doing stupid things as part of government/corporate police . . .

like polluting the environment -- ending atomic warfare -- adopting healthier living

conditions.

[Robb]

152. So now the polio vaccines caused AIDS? nt

[defendandprotect]

167. The polio vaccines in Africa . . .

were cultivated in monkey glands . . .

and it is believed that monkey viruses crossed the line --

creating HIV/AIDS in Africa --

Additionally, there are connections now being developed to cancer.

Try google --

[Robb]

176. The Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people,

...under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner.

We're through the looking glass, here, people...

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. Given the first case of human HIV goes well before the Polio vaccine was

deployed... try again.

http://www.avert.org/origin-aids-hiv.htm

Or maybe I am off in my history of science but the Polio Vaccine was NOT deployed in 1931

[Pavulon]

154. Did you just say polio vax caused aids?

that is just breath taking. wow.

[defendandprotect]

171. They are now questioning connections to cancer, as well --

The polio vaccines in Africa . . .

were cultivated in monkey glands . . .

and it is believed that monkey viruses crossed the line --

creating HIV/AIDS in Africa --

Additionally, there are connections now being developed to cancer.

Try google -

[Pavulon]

189. Try JAMA, Journal (whatever)

the internet can breed stupid. Medical journals and government findings from western medicine are generally harder to read but have less bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. Once again the first cases of HIV were believed to have occurred in 1931

http://www.avert.org/origin-aids-hiv.htm

Try again.

Oh and Cancer has been in the medical literature for literally thousands of years. In fact the word TUMOR is ancient in its etymology and meaning.

Who knew, the Polio vaccine is thousands of years old.

[defendandprotect]

271. We have a cancer epidemic -- now 1 in 3 Americans have cancer . . .!!!

and you're comparing that to ancient scattered cases?

Not all tumors, either, are cancerous . . . as we all know.

The polio epidemic could be linked to the stopping of breast cancer --

there are many other connections, as well.

But the connections are certainly to corporate-for profit-chemical medicine --

[Euromutt]

313. That's because we're living long enough to get all those cancers

For example, if you're a man your seventies or eighties, prostate cancer is practically just a matter of time. But even fifty years ago (let alone a hundred), most men didn't live long enough to get prostate cancer. The fact that they do now is attributable in no small part to vaccines and antibiotics.

[ipaint]

136. At what point will some of these anti vax "doctors"

decide to do the right thing and get the studies done to back up their claims. Because until then you aren't being skeptical or critically using your brain or acting in a non sheeple way.
Dogma is not science, questions aren't proof and suspicions aren't evidence.
Especially when your vocal indulgence in this proven nonsense will lead to increased disease and death among children.

Suspect something? There is no stopping these anti-vax specialists from proving their claims. They are certainly making enough money off of unproven fearmongering to finance any and all studies needed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. Hmmm I see you survived polio and smallpox and the mumps

and rubeolla...

Lucky you...

[mzmolly]

94. Wow, they really care about the children involved eh?

:eyes:

[Barack_America]

156. All of those newborns in the waiting room...

...vunerable to whooping cough and polio.

Hell yes they care about the kids.

[mzmolly]

160. Polio has been erradicated in the western hemisphere,

last time I checked? And unless every adult in that waiting room/working in the office, has had the new adult pertussis booster, you're point is moot.

[Barack_America]

169. What do think happens when people stop vaccinating their kids?

These disease come back.

And whooping cough is actually already on the rise:
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090329/NEWS/903305032?Title=Cases-of-Whooping-Cough-on-the-Rise-With-Infants-Most-at-Risk

Q. Why have the number of cases been on the rise?

A. We think that is because adults are acting as a reservoir for (the disease). And the number of susceptible children is growing because parents are being misled by scientifically unsupported claims that vaccines are dangerous and are choosing not to have their children vaccinated. I know they think they are doing what is right for their children, but they are wrong. They are putting their own children and others at risk of getting preventable diseases.

[mzmolly]

190. We have higher than ever vaccine compliance rates in the US.

http://in.reuters.com/article/healthNewsMolt/idINCOL47185220080904?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

"Child vaccination rates hit record levels" ~ Reuters ~ Sep 5, 2008

The notion that parents are increasingly refusing to vaccinate is false and it's perpetuated in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Also as I've said, unless you demand that every adult have every booster ever required, not seeing children who are not fully vaccinated is hypocritical.

[Barack_America]

201. Actually opting out is on the rise.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/2/

As a medical student I am required to stay current on all of my adult boosters or else I cannot attend school. I find it to be a very wise policy.

[mzmolly]

205. On the rise? From 1 - 2 % in "some" areas?

This wired article is quite simply, Merck propaganda. For example, we supposedly eradicated Polio with much lower compliance rates than we have today 60% - 80% nationwide. Yet we're to panic about a 1% increase (likely coincidental) in non-compliance?

I have many issues with the article and it's claims, but I'm not going to address all of them today. ;)

[defendandprotect]

175. Now a resurgence of mumps . . .

there are no guarantees that we will NOT see a resurgence in polio --

Viruses mutate -- and that's what scientists have been warning us of in last

decades re our efforts to combat nature. When you do, the failure is often

even greater.

Again -- natural immunities are passed onto newborns from Mother's milk --

all of which has been discouraged by patriarchal medicine --

and chemical-corporate investments in formula all over the world!!

Much of it now being shown to be inferior to breastmilk -- but also harmful to children.

[HuckleB]

226. Believe me, they do.

[guitar man]

101. I don't blame the doctors

I don't blame them a bit, but the terminology should be doctors "quit" patients, not "fire" them. The patients pay the doctors, not the other way around, so IMO that would be the more proper way to put it. Just my .02

[defendandprotect]

161. IMO, these doctors eliminate themselves as unworthy of treating patients . . .

However, let's remember that it the move to patriarchal medicine where the incentive

for women to breastfeed children is lost and not encouraged!!!

Breastfeeding is where newborns gain natural immunities to disease thru their mother's.

Not to mention the move to crap forumla's which are shown in every way to be not only

inferior but harmful to babies.

Why trust nature when we have corporate-chemical-medicine?

Of course, our pharmaceutical companies are ALL involved in defrauding government in

Medicare/Medicaid programs -- EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!!

See: Sen. Bernie Sanders

[HuckleB]

222. Good point.

I like that. "Quit." It is better than the term that is used in most offices, which is, of course,
"terminate."

[Ilsa]

166. Two weeks old seems pretty early to be vaxing. My kids' pedi wouldn't

shoot them up until they were at least two months old.

[defendandprotect]

178. One parent who asked for a delay because her child had been ill after

first vaccinations was threatened by her pediatrician with CDC being called!!!

She therefore agreed to the new shots.

Subsequently, her son developed autism.

And, above all, no child should be vaccinated if they are ill.

[foxfeet]

203. OK, now you're just shilling for Big Wacko.

Do you have any links to credible sources for your claims?

[defendandprotect]

287. Where were you --? Go watch the video . .

See this woman testify before Congress -- !!!

Catch up!!

[SidDithers]

292. Give us a link to the video...nt

Sid

[HuckleB]

221. I call baloney on this claim.

[Codeine]

229. Oh bull fucking shit. nt

[HuckleB]

225. Physicians and other health care providers discuss the patient relationship a great deal.

They have taken great pains to develop thought as to when it's time to break the relationship.

Terminating a Patient: Is It Time to Part Ways?
http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20050900/34term.html

When the Patient-Physician Relationship Is Broken
http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2008/09/ccas2-0809.html

These are not easy decisions for professionals to make.

[defendandprotect]

288. We need to break the links between patriarchal medicine and corporate medicine . . .

because as we can see CORPORATE MEDICINE is killing 45,000 Americans every year --

We also need to break the links between medicine "for profit" -- and corporations . . .

and corporate lobby of doctors and government.

EPA reports --
Global Warming reports --
All science has been contaminated and corrupted by corporate power.
Not to mention our "Monsanto-FDA" . . .

[HuckleB]

314. That has nothing to do with what I posted.

[HuckleB]

227. It would be interesting to know the full story of both sides of the initial anecdote.

It's likely that Ms. Echan's story was abbreviated tremendously for the story, and thus we are missing much of the context for the dismissal. And, of course, we don't know the doctor's perspective at all.

This may be of interest to those pondering this matter...

Responding to Parental Refusals of Immunization of Children:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;115/5/1428

[xchrom]

236. as it should be. nt

[Warpy]

289. Doctors bounce noncompliant patients all the time

when they just won't listen to reason when it comes to taking their meds and following up on the treatment the doctor has spent his time devising to help them feel better and live longer.

Parents who endanger their kids and all the other kids around them by not preventing serious illnesses by simple vaccination really need a wake up call. This doctor just delivered one.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

308. I'm thinking this is at least partially due to fear of lawsuit.

If you take your baby to the doctor whose waiting room is filled with kids who aren't vaccinated, your kid could get sick. In this litigious society, I can see an angry parent suing a doctor for providing an unsafe waiting environment for their kids.

Will it hold up in court? Meh. But it could drag on and on and even frivolous lawsuits cost money to fight.

At least now, this doctor can say he did everything he could to provide a safe environment for parents to bring their children to.

[Crunchy Frog]

315. My first ped and I mutually fired each other.

I'm much happier with my much more flexible family practice doc.