Sleep Aberration May Play Role in Near-Death Experience

[varkam]

Medpage Today
April 10, 2006
Michael Smith
Sleep Aberration May Play Role in Near-Death Experience

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LEXINGTON, Ky, April 10 - So-called near-death experiences -- the widely reported sensations, in times of peril, of floating above the body, seeing a white light, and having a sensation of peace -- may be related to poorly regulated arousal systems in the brain, according to researchers here.

In a case-control study, people who reported near-death experiences were more likely than controls to also report elements of an aberration of the wake-sleep cycle known as REM intrusion, said neurologist Kevin Nelson, M.D., of the University of Kentucky.

<snip>

The study found:

* Overall, 60% of the cases recalled one or more element of REM intrusion, compared with 24% of the controls. The difference was statistically significant at P<0.001.
* 42% of the cases but only 7% of controls answered yes to the question: "Just before falling asleep or just after awakening, have you ever seen things, objects or people that others cannot see?" The difference was statistically significant at P<0.0001.
* 36% of the cases but only 7% of controls answered yes to the question: "Just before falling asleep or just after awakening, have you ever heard sounds, music or voices that other people cannot hear?" The difference was statistically significant at P<0.001.
* 46% of the cases but only 13% of controls answered yes to the question: "Have you ever awakened and found that you were unable to move or felt paralyzed?" Again, the difference was statistically significant at P<0.001.


<Snip>...

[MuseRider]

1. Sounds like the hypnogogic state

in Narcolepsy. Interesting.

[sam sarrha]

7. hypnagogic is related to sleep, a Delta Rhythm.. unconsciousness, that

would not apply because the people are conscious.. i had a NDE.. i was very consciousness, although my body had suffocated and ceased to breathe, i noticed that before i hauled ass at the speed of light through the tunnel.. and was told to go back because i had things to do yet.. and when i returned i was not breathing.. it took a lot of effort to take that first breath.. which did not do a lot of good due to the amount of carbon monoxide in the air.. my coming back saved 5 other people.

perhaps a Theta rhythm .. definitely not an Alpha, been there.. that was not it.

[varkam]

9. Ever hear of hypnagogic hallucinations?

They're actually a crossover between the same arousal systems.

[sam sarrha]

10. Placebo is a hallucination... one mans hallucination is another's enlightenment

i am really tired of science being used as a weapon against alternate perceptions.

so is a Shaman just the victim of a big ass'd Latin word...

is a vision quest by a person a futile primitive attempt to have a Hypnagogic moment..??

my mother ..hell our whole family is Clairvoyant.. did she have a hypnagogic event when she told my best friend his car was dangerous and told him the part, he agreed and said he would fix it in 2 days.. she said if he didn't it would flip over and kill him, the 3rd day it flipped over and killed him. i guess my friend had a bad hypnogogic day.

there is a very god book called 'Destructive Emotions' narrated by Daniel Goleman. available either at amazon or http://www.snowlionpub.com

it is about a discovery made by leaders in the field of neuro science during an annual week long round table discussion of Western Psychologists, Neuroscientists and philosophers and Buddhist Scholars including the Dalai Lama.

*....if upon investigation we find that there is reason and proof for a point, then we should accept it. However, a clear distinction should be made between is 'not found' by science and what is found to be nonexistent by science...

...the more we pursue material improvement, ignoring the contentment that comes from inner growth, the faster ethical values will disappear from our communities. Then we will all experience unhappiness in the long run, for when there is not place for justice and honesty in peoples hearts, the weak are the first to suffer. And the resentments resulting from such inequity ultimately effect everyone adversely....

in a nutshell what was discovered in the meeting was that from the very beginning of the science of psychology psychology there was not control group. essentially invalidating much of the fundamental basis of that science. a study was done of some fundamental concepts of psychology using monks that had decades of practice in meditation and some that had decades of solo Retreats.. where they meditated 24/7 for years at a time, these guys learn lucid dream techniques and even meditate in their dreams..

Meditation is a method of 'Training the Mind'.. the results were fascinating, they disproved some conventional beliefs about Reflexes and consciousness. it is a very interesting book..

there isn't just one path and everybody else is wrong, unless you want to enslave people and control what they think and believe.. especially if it works better than what you are selling or making a lot of money off of.

[varkam]

11. My life is a lie

I study psychology....oh my god...you mean it's all invalid? Wow, I guess I should go on a "vision quest".

Look - I'm not saying that science has the cure-all for every one of the questions that we're asking. I'm not saying it's impossible that people have ESP, etc. What I am saying is that there is no systematic body of evidence to support such a conclusion. If all that you're basing the conclusion on is anecdotal evidence, then I am really, truly not impressed. I bet I could tell the future, too. I'm sure if I made enough predictions about what would occur tomorrow, I would eventually be correct: You see? I can tell the future!

In all seriousness, maybe certain people are clairvoyant, have ESP, can read people's minds, etc. I've never seen anything that would support that conclusion, however. I'm sure that's probably because "I don't want to believe" or "My mind is not open enough" or whatever.

And about dreams...there's an interesting problem when talking about lucid dreaming, meditating in your dreams, etc. Can we really have dreams that are lucid? I mean, I think I've had one once - but was it really a lucid dream, or did I dream a lucid dream, so to speak? In other words, did I have a dream where part of the dream was that I had the impression I was in control of the events? Hard to tell.

[sam sarrha]

13. i didnt say it was all invalid.. you are not interested in my sourse, and

you are jumping to your own conclusions.

concversation over, but it was sort of interesting

[varkam]

14. The same could be said for yourself n/t

[sam sarrha]

2. i really have no faith in studies like this..if the had an NDE it precludes

any of the control subjects experiences..

what fundamental christian group did that study.. i just cant believe this study was not a creation to prove some bible thumpers preconceived dogma...how were the cotrols selected/frome where, were they peers/and age matched/religious compatible...

the telling statement is.. 'it's intuitive to neurologists..' so these neurologists have some psychic absolute pre knowledge before hand to draw from.. before the study, to draw their conclusions

sounds like crap to me.. i have done some research and every researcher i knew who wanted to stay on the payroll rigged the study or ignored info to the contrary... this is called 'the blind eye of science'.. and it pays the bills

[varkam]

3. Huh?

I take this study to mean that there is a possible, purely material explanation for the "immaterial" experience of seeing a white light or angels or whatever. What dogma is this chasing after?

Also, I believe the authors address the limitations, stating that it merely provides a testable hypothesis - IOW, more investigation is needed.

[sam sarrha]

5. the "Control" is the key here.. taken from 'staff' at the hospital.. that

is totally inappropriate. all science minded people whos rational judgement is at risk of being invalidated by higher ups in the same workspace.

i so not accept that NDE's explain anything.. they are just a phenomena, which some day may point to something wonderful. and a very interesting one anyway if not.

i have had an NDE. it totally changed my life. i did not try to explain it or explain it away, and i was a scientist at the time.

you may remember a product called,...'No Pest strip', a piece of yellow plastic you took out of a sealed foil package, and put in a folded wood grained fold open box with holes in it, that you hung in the house to kill bugs and your children... my research took that off the market, i studied 'PURE' research. i did not know about 'Corporate' research. i was told by a friend to go hide out for a couple of years because i pissed off some very bad people.

i was supposed to keep 2 record books, one with the data and one to spin the data into... to prove the product worked like they said it did. they put all my data in a little plywood shack out in an orchard and set it on fire in the middle of the night in a rural area.. because you have to hand in the lab books whether or not you finish the tests.. being that it was a pesticide study.

if you dont think that science has a 'Blind Eye' to the truth when it comes to making money.. then why are all those bad drugs out there killing so many people, Strattera killed over 300 last year.. some were suicides but most were sudden just drop dead where you stand, children 12 years old killing themselves taking an ADD drug..?? i was given that crap without any testing, i just took it to make others happy, i have Aspergers Syndrome.. i do have a tendency to be literal and blunt. but crap like that pisses me off.

http://www.laleva.org/eng/2006/01/eli_lillys_and_christopher_gillbergs_failed_experiment_with_strattera.html

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/04/26.php

http://www.ritalindeath.com/strattera-suicide.htm

http://www.ritalindeath.com/strattera.htm

my NDE set me on a journey... i studied all kinds groups and religious practices, i had an OBE doing Pranayama.. i 'apparently' astral projected in an ethereal crystal like body into a blazing white light..saw the burning bush.., i asked how to end the anger i festered with over my wife running off with a drug dealer and 2 hookers with our son.. hiding him from me with cocaine and heroin addicts while she was in jail.. :banghead: a voice like a bell replied and said...'Then Love her', i mumbled 'yea but', the voice replied 'but Nothing.!! Love her'.. that is when i realized it was the burning bush.. and i was arguing with it... i was totally consumed with fear for my son and hatred for her for what she was doing to him..
i them blessed her twice every time i habitually cursed her, upon waking and before sleep i prayed for her/their deliverance form her situation, and for protection until she accepted the offer. and i placed her in protective blue and golden spheres that were mirrored to reflect evil. after about a month of intensive prayer.. actually meditation, i cater to no religion. i received a letter telling me she had moved back to her mothers house and was going to school.. and i could see our son any time i wanted to, and gave me her phone number to talk to our son.

there are powers that be, that do not want people to know that they can change the world thru contemplation or prayer, meditation or just good vibes.. the fact that prayer has been proved to work in medicine is not actually proof that prayer is the only process that works, prayer is only a subset of mental activities that work.. many work much better. but the 'Blind Eye' of Science will ignore them... because of the Golden Rule....which is 'The Guy with the Gold makes the Rules' i have done some research on affirmations and they work much better than prayer.. i got results in an average of 16 days.. the system isn't based on a gOD granting grace.. it is a process simply of the way the world works. the Dalai Lama said, 'A negativite thought contenues and increases exponentually until replaced by positive thought, however the positive thought must be cultivated.' be careful of what you think.. why else does the Media, and rush and savage and the rest try to keep everybody encasesd in negativity.

why do these people try to constantly put down something with such a wonderful message.. i have been there, i was told 'Not Now'.. but in a way that indicated i had things to acheive first.. i was then smapped back into my body at light speed, like letting go of a very large rubber band and hitting your thumb..i was a scientist. it is real. i have had friends that told me details of their NDE's that can not be addressed by they posit in that study. it is a bogus study to invalidate a very important moment in many peoples life, and anything they may tell others that might deliver goodness to this tired and battered world and the hopeless people in it.

[varkam]

8. Okay...

I appreciate your response, but I guess I'm just unclear on a few things. First...who gets to make money off of discovering that NDEs are a malfunctioning of an arousal system in the brain? I doubt anyone will market a pill, as I don't think that NDEs are necessarily classified as a disorder or a disease.

Moreover, regarding the study itself, I don't think it was intended to draw any absolute conclusive results:

Dr. Nelson and colleagues cautioned that the study was retrospective and based on questionnaires, but it presents what he called a "testable hypothesis" that could be examined in a range of clinical circumstances.

So it's not that they were saying that the study has no methodological flaws or generalizability concerns - in fact they're hoping for more research to be done on the subject.

But, I think you're greatest concern is with the possibility of a neuropsychological explanation for NDEs. Are you saying that it would become meaningless if it didn't have a spiritual explanation? With all due respect, it seems to me that you're discounting the data that's available because of your beliefs - which I'm sure as you know, is a no-no as a scientist. Vision is a wonderful and awe-inspiring thing. Now that we have a neuropsychological explanation for how we see things, does that make it less wondrous? I guess it would make it less mysterious for sure, which might be part of the wonder for some.

And suppose for a moment that we live in a completely material universe - no souls, no Gods, no afterlife. Would your experience give your life any less meaning? You'd still be doing the same things and still have the same history. You just might be wrong about some of your beliefs. We all are from time to time, I know I've fell for a few doozys in my time. But is that where meaning comes from? Being right?

[sam sarrha]

12. not all is done for money, i am cautioning that some do this to protect

their own beliefs because they feel if there is another effective method theirs is threatened, even if they are equally effective

the conclusion that is being 'begged' is that NDE's are not real.. it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.. this is how people make a name for themselves in an industry that is myopic and and wants to keep things that way.. my fear is that the dialog seems ot indicate that this study is is to stroke those with grants with an obsession to disprove mysticism.....

Testable Hypothesis..???????!!! the real test here is if the event causes positive permanent changes in an individual and/or group. the question that follows is does a disbelief in NDE's create a positive and lasting effect in its dis-believes

i have no fear in what they prove neurologically..other than the methodology used is valid and that they actually understand the details and causes...which no one does. my concern is that the purpose is to prove us wrong and invalidate alternate perspectives that do have measurable effects... if you dont think there is a fundamentalist movement to disprove anything not supported by and that actually threatens mainstream religion then you are in a hypnagogid dream yourself.

and these People cant get a 'Control Group' for this.. first you have to have a group of psycho analyzed patients with a variety of background variables. then you have to kill them and bring them back.. and to cover all the options you have to kill them in a variety of methods.. this turd isn't going to fly.. i feel that it is possible some guy is just trying to get a grant from the 700 club

i am not trying to be right, i am standing up and trying to tell you this really cant be done short of wiring a patient to a PET scan and against the odds of that happening and its cost, it wont happen.. the point is that i was a dedicated scientist and i have Experienced ASC's ..Altered States of Consciousness.. both are real. there is more than enough data to prove NDE's are real.. why dont they try to prove they are real, and not sleep apnia. i dont personally feel a need to prove anything..i took a job to help juveniles in a lock up prison by teaching them meditation, every kid i taught to meditate was paroled in 60 days.. i lost my job.. and was told not to do that any more.. i did science and discovered a dangerous product and lost my job.. is that some kind of phenomena.. if not it is certainly curious.

science is a valuable tool, but what we see today is not always science, it is a corporate method to maximize profits. the corporations have infiltrated our education system, out hospitals, our food, our religion.. i follow no religion i seek what works, science hay day is long gone.. they used to seek 'cures' and now seek only methods to collect rent with expensive life long treatments, they used to seek effency and now seek profits.. it all started with Ronald Reagan... who knows when this madness will all end..

I just dont trust them is my point, i used my own experience as an example.. i didn't say science was worng only maybe they were wrong-their method/motovation, some of their methods are tho.

NDE's frequently change the person in a positive way permanently for the better, the disbelievers in NDE's dont seem to be changed in a positive way or in any way.. perhaps their disbelief is a symptom of some other negative mental disorder, i will get some of the staff down at the local yoga center for a control group.. :rofl:

[varkam]

15. Where have I said that science is the house on the hill?

I don't think that this paper "disproves" the existence of NDE's - quite the opposite. This paper operates on the assumption that NDEs do, in fact occur. This paper merely lays out a possible explanation from a neurological perspective. Funny things happen when the brain is deprived of oxygen and / or nutrients - not to mention the extreme state of arousal that is typical of stressful situations.

Further, I'm not debating whether or not a methodologically valid or ethical experiment can be conducted on the topic. I'm no expert in experimental design. I merely thought the results of this study were interesting.

And why not try to prove NDEs are real? Well...as I said, the study operated on the assumption that they are real. If by "real" you mean involving some kind of spiritual event - I think that's outside of the realm of science. Surely, as a scientist, you would know that science operates in the realm of things we can see, touch, feel, taste, etc. Objectifiable and quantifiable phenomena - the gods and the spirits are outside of that realm. And why do research on sleep apnea? Because it kills people - pure and simple. People can't take vision quests if they're dead, now can they?

And you mentioned meditation. I'm sure you wouldn't of thought this, but I do think that mindfulness techniques and meditation can be helpful to people. The treatment of choice for people with Borderline Personality Disorder is Dialectical Behavior Therapy - which draws it's theoretical underpinnings from Zen Buddhism and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. A lot of techniques that are taught to BPDers I use myself - they come in handy in daily life.

But I guess this conversation is over, right?

[FM Arouet666]

4. Blind eye of science?

Rigged the study or ignored info to the contrary? Sorry, science does not work in the fashion you describe. I don't offer an opinion either way on the OP article other than it appears to offer a naturalistic explanation for NDE, countering unsubstantiated claims that NDE supports the existence of a supernatural.

Please clarify your post, I am unsure how to comment. Critical of science? Religion? Critical of poorly designed research or critical of the process entirely? Reading your post prompted many ?.

[sam sarrha]

6. See my reply above to Varkam, i beg to differ.. been there done that..

i had to join the peace corps and hide out in Africa for a couple years.. after messing up one of their big money making pesticides.. they dont really care who they hurt.



and corporate research is not necessarily science. some are better than others. see my links in the above post to varkum

so why is Tobacco still killing nearly half a million people every year in this country, and strattera kills over 300 a year and they are giving a literally untested drug to children who are killing themselves at 12 years old.. i took that crap and i know why they kill themselves.. it is evil and the drug is amphetamine like, it is hideous, it takes you to a place of stinking death, the only option is death, everybody else is dead, you have to find a place somewhere away from the rotting corpses to sit and wait for death because there is not life anywhere.

and they want to take the morning after pill off the market after 2 deaths where the 2 people used the product inappropriately. i smell a blind eye in there somewhere

[laruemtt]

16. if you read Dannion Brinkley's books -

he gives accounts of his "death experiences" (yes, he had several). Raymond Moody, author of Life After Life, was skeptical of his claimed abilities to read people's lives following these experiences until he witnessed Dannion tell stranger after stranger personal details of his or her life simply by touching the person's hand. he was initially struck by lightning in 1975 at the age of 25. he had previously had NO psychic abilities. in fact, he was in his own words pretty much a houligan, seeking fistfights wherever he could fine one. has anyone here read any of his books?