Alternative Vaccination Schedule

[Celebration]

Anyone read his book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1DAPYLS5Z9FO2/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog

Well, my Alternative Vaccine Schedule is the answer Larry King is looking for. The three main worries that connect vaccines with autism involve mercury, the measles component of the MMR vaccine, and vaccine chemical overload when too many shots are given at once. My vaccine approach circumvents all three worries and allows parents to fully vaccinate their children in the safest manner possible. Keep in mind that science hasn’t proven that any of these worries are even warranted. Yet, every parent with a young baby is concerned nonetheless. So here’s how my vaccine schedule addresses these issues:

First, mercury has been taken out of all vaccines as of 2002, except for some brands of the flu shot. As long as a parent knows to make sure their baby gets a mercury-free flu shot, this particular toxic metal isn’t a risk anymore.

Second, the measles component of the MMR vaccine can be delayed until age 3 years or later. Next to the mercury worry, this live virus vaccine (given at age 1) has come under the most fire. Because autism seems to occur or become most apparent between age 1 and 3 years, my vaccine schedule doesn’t give the measles vaccine until AFTER that age. Once a baby’s neurological system has matured for a few years, and normal language and social development are in place by age three, autism would be extremely unlikely to then be triggered by a measles vaccine given at that later age.

Third, many parents worry about overloading a baby’s little system with so many vaccine chemicals and germ ingredients in the large groups of vaccines given at 2, 4 and 6 months of age. Why not spread those vaccines out? Give 2 shots at a time instead of the recommended 6. Spread the shots out over several years instead of bunching them all together in the first 18 months. Give the most important vaccines first, and follow up with the less critical ones later on. My Alternative Vaccine Schedule does just that.

The child in this particular court case unfortunately had all of these three elements against her. In the interview with Larry King, the parents stated their daughter got 9 vaccines all at once at her 19-month checkup. The mother began to explain how they had skipped vaccines at 12 months (but she didn’t get to finish her statement), and so had to catch up with more shots at 19 months. If she got 9 vaccines at that age, this means that she received the MMR, DTaP, Polio, HIB, and probably Chickenpox vaccines all at one time. Normally these would be spaced out and given in 1 or 2 dose groups at 12 months, 15 months, and 18 months. But this child got 6 months worth of vaccines all at once. Plus, there was a significant amount of mercury in these vaccines back then.

[katty]

1. thx for this! my friend is having a baby

[Warpy]

2. This seems reasonable, but it's still taking a risk

because measles, mumps and rubella aren't benign illnesses that all children will survive. In addition, they can be transmitted to adults whose immunity has worn off and they're much more serious diseases in adults.

Know that you're risking not only your kid's life but the lives of people around him/her if you delay the immunizations.

By the way, how's that drastic reduction in autism cases coming along since thimerosal has been removed from vaccines? Didn't happen? Woops.

[Celebration]

3. As I understand it

There may be some obvious problems with that study. In any case, thank goodness, we don't have to worry about thimerosal anymore.

Gosh it is a wonder I made it through childhood without an MMR and a chickenpox vaccine!

[Warpy]

7. I almost died from measles

which spread to my brain and put me into a coma for a week. One of my friends did die from it.

People who are too young to remember this stuff are the biggest suckers for the antivax crowd.

[trotsky]

9. Just pop a couple of Tylenol and quarantine the kid, Warpy.

No big deal! :sarcasm:

[Tumbulu]

12. Oh my goodness, how horrible!

And what a terrible fright for your entire family.

[dropkickpa]

14. I almost died from chickenpox in spring 1987

Damn skippy I got Dropkid vaxed.

[kestrel91316]

4. Obvously somebody is lying to us about removal of the thimerosol.....

:sarcasm:

[mzmolly]

5. He's just another person at the mercy of the misinformation campaign is all.

Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines

http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t3

[Tumbulu]

11. Aren't adults who never got these illnesses supposed to get boosters?

Those of us that got them don't need boosters, just the one who got vaccines. The 40 year olds and younger crowd. I was told that you need a booster every 18 years. Aren't the adults supposed to be taking care of themselves?

[Warpy]

13. They are, and it's essential to get boosters for a lot of things

even if they never had the illness. Tetanus, pertussis and diphtheria are three.

I had pertussis as an adult, caught it from a coworker with an unvaccinated kid. I was miserable for 8 months. Kids take up to two years to recover from it and it kills infants and young toddlers. Get the booster. You don't want the disease, trust me.

[mzmolly]

6. Thanks IJM. I've heard good things about Dr. Bob Sears book.

:hi:

[trotsky]

8. "vaccine chemical overload when too many shots are given at once"

Totally unsupported statement. Many anti-vaxers state it, or imply it. That children get "too many" vaccines at once. Yet not one of them has ever come close to demonstrating WHY this is the case. You know why? Because there's simply no evidence whatsoever that it's true.

The Dr. Spock website (known of course far and wide as being part of TEH EVUL GLOBAL CONSPIRACY TO KILL CHILDREN!!!11!) has a nice, brief writeup:
http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5170,00.html

Parents often are concerned that because their babies are so small, their immune systems won't be able to handle many germs or vaccines. The fact is that medical experts estimate the immune system can recognize and effectively combat hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of different organisms.

Viruses and bacteria are everywhere. In the air, in food, in water. Babies routinely scratch themselves with their growing fingernails, introducing thousands of LIVE, DEADLY critters directly into their bloodstream. The fearmongers don't give our bodies nearly enough credit - which is odd considering just how many of them are supposedly into "natural" treatments and letting the body heal itself.

Of course getting the "natural" disease can put FAR more stress on the immune system than ANY vaccine, as evidenced by the large numbers of secondary infections and ailments from the diseases we immunize against. Again from the Dr. Spock site:

On the other hand, some natural infections can weaken your child's immune system; I have seen this happen many times. A particularly striking example of how one infection can make a child more likely to develop another is the risk of serious strep infections with chickenpox. Children with chickenpox are more likely to become infected with dangerous (flesh-eating) strep bacteria than other children. This complication of chickenpox may cause severe disability or even be fatal. Similarly, children with measles are more likely to develop ear infections, pneumonia, encephalitis, and tuberculosis.

Bottom line is, parents are taking a HUGE risk by either not vaccinating, or waiting to vaccinate. A much greater risk than vaccination itself.

[Celebration]

10. I have an idea

Let's get it over all at once and give them all in one injection before babies leave the hospital. Maybe we shouldn't even release them to their parents until they have at least the first injection for everything. The booster can come ASAP.

If we can safely vaccinate for nine different things at one time, why not just put them all together? Surely their immune systems could handle it!! In any case, I don't know of any studies that says there is any danger in that. It has to be fine.

[trotsky]

16. Please.

You have no interest in learning the science, only bashing the medical profession, the scientific establishment, and vaccines. It's very sad.

[Celebration]

38. So,

Is Dr. Judy Van De Water bashing the medical profession, the scientific establishment, and vaccines also?

You know, the immunologists that thinks it is a good idea not to have too many vaccines at once?

Horrors!

[trotsky]

39. Wonderful non-sequitir.

You really don't like losing, do you?

[LeftishBrit]

18. There would be a danger there, but not the one you're implying

Vaccination just doesn't work against certain illnesses if given too young. Same with natural immunity. My dad got measles at the age of six months, and then got it again at the age of 4 or 5, because the first time he'd been too young to develop an immunity. Vaccination schedules are chosen with an eye to effectiveness as well as safety.

[cosmik debris]

19. Do you mean that these things are decided by qualified

professionals based on science, instead of being decided by internet posters based on fear. What kind of a silly system is that?

[trotsky]

22. Don't forget the anecdotal evidence!

I witnessed it, so it's scientific! I swear!

[Celebration]

26. in any case

There are immunologists that are starting to question giving multiple doses of vaccines at the same time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=33543&mesg_id=33741

[Tumbulu]

15. Have you had any children that reacted to a vaccination?

I know of no mom who plans anything for three days after an inoculation as they are big deals for most babies and children. Stuff in the air is not at all the same as an injection of a pathogen or virus. Come on now!

Even my vet will only give two shots maximum at a time. Then we wait a month or two.

Dr Sears is a major advocate of Attachment Parenting. I believe that his advice is being given to the parents who keep the babies and children at home, and should not be taken out of context.

Why not let the body recover from each new inoculation if they are not in public childcare? This is hardly controversial.

My cousins (five RN's and one Pediatrician) all spread the vaccines out on their children. I think that the schedule that is recommended is mostly about children in day care centers (where the risks may certainly be much greater ) and not about stay at home children.

[trotsky]

17. Let's see...

Two kids, all scheduled vaccinations, the worst reaction was a mild fever which we treated with infant Tylenol. Of course I'm not going to extend my experience to everyone - that would be ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE - but you are setting yourself up as more educated than an immunologist. Are you?

Stuff in the air is not at all the same as an injection of a pathogen or virus. Come on now!

You are absolutely correct. The stuff in the air and the environment is far, far deadlier.

[Tumbulu]

20. Immunologists now claim that antigens sufficient to cause an immune response

can simply be inhaled or eaten?

I am completely unaware of this. Why are the standard vaccines injected then?

I was under the impression that the respiratory system and the digestive system protected the body against most antigens. And that in order to elicit a response suitable for protection against future infections or to protect the body from certain toxins via the immune system (tetanus and pertussis toxins for instance) that the antigens had to get past these barriers and make it into the blood stream either through muscle tissue (IM) or under the dermal layer at least.

And I would like to know what is the big problem with anecdotal evidence on these boards.

Direct observation is a cornerstone of science. First one observes a cause and effect and then one investigates it through experimentation. But without noticing things, where would we be? Brain dead like W?

[trotsky]

21. I think you're missing the point.

antigens sufficient to cause an immune response can simply be inhaled or eaten?

You bet. See Flumist. But my point was concerning the ACTUAL diseases. You know, the real, live, and quite virulent polio virus as opposed to the weakened one in a vaccine. Surely you know the difference between a DEADLY, WILD virus and one that has been cultured in, for instance, eggs, so as to impair its ability to replicate in the human body? If you had to choose between exposing your child to polio in a poorly-sanitized swimming pool and polio in a vaccine, which would you pick?

Still going to insist your knowledge (coupled with a wonderful bit of anecdotal evidence) counters that of people who have studied pathogens and the immune system for years?

And I would like to know what is the big problem with anecdotal evidence on these boards.

A very simple and brief explanation.
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/anecdotal.html

[Tumbulu]

23. I am now completely confused

What are we talking about on this post?

I thought it was about Dr Sears recommending an infant and baby vaccination schedule that was spaced out a bit over time so that each vaccine was given separately. Not more than one shot at a time. So, let's see, the DTaP at one visit, then the polio at the next, then boosters of each, then on and on.

I was under the impression that each of these were shots, either IM or ID. Is this no longer correct?

I have never heard of exposure without infection granting any immunity to anything. I am only aware of an immune response generated by the actual illness or by a successful vaccine (usually with a booster or boosters periodically). This is the point of vaccination, isn't it? To allow the body to produce antibodies against a pathogen without having to endure and survive the actual disease?

I have never read anything in Dr Sears' books that suggest vaccines should not be given. Have you?

I made a point in my first post that many people have children who do have reactions to vaccines that are hard for a parent to handle (fevers, irritability, etc). For parents of these children spacing the vaccines out over time seems sensible to me and also was sensible to these cousins of mine in the medical profession. However, none of these children were in day care.

Perhaps the vaccination schedule is quite important for babies and toddlers in public day care situations as they are indeed exposed to more pathogens.

Dr Sears' advice is given to those for whom attachment parenting has been practiced. These babies and children not in public day care.

Please refrain from insulting me.

[trotsky]

24. Sorry you've having problems following the discussion.

Let me try and recap.

1) Thread starts with a simple cut-n-paste of a book description on Amazon which references the completely and utterly unsupported (by facts and evidence, at least) belief that somehow "too many" vaccines are given at once.

2) I respond by pointing this out, and providing a link to a well-known and well-respected pediatric care site indicating otherwise.

3) You respond with a non-sequitir, asking if I've never seen a reaction to a vaccination. You also claim that "Stuff in the air is not at all the same as an injection of a pathogen or virus." Another non-sequitir comes with the Dr. Sears reference. My link came from the Dr. Spock site.

4) I ask if you are presenting yourself as more knowledgeable than a trained immunologist on this topic, and try to subtly point out that with your comment about "stuff in the air" being different, you are overlooking the fact that deadly diseases have historically been transmitted via the air or water or environment. That's why those diseases were contagious!

5) You missed my subtle point and instead attack the false assertion you think I made, that vaccines can be inhaled or eaten. Then you bring up the non-sequitir about anecdotal evidence.

6) I point out that there actually IS a vaccine (Flumist) that works through inhalation. I should have also pointed out the ORAL polio vaccination as another example. I present a link that briefly summarizes the problems with using anecdotal evidence to make an argument.

7) You respond that you're confused, and then use most of the post to demonstrate that, again bringing up the wrong pediatric doctor as well as putting words in my mouth.

And you think you've been insulted. :eyes:

[Celebration]

25. and another expert opinion

This time from an immunologist--

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

It's difficult to draw any clear lessons from the case of Hannah Poling, other than the dire need for more research. One plausible conclusion is that pediatricians should avoid giving small children a large number of vaccines at once, even if they are thimerosal-free. Young children have an immature immune system that's ill-equipped to handle an overload, says Dr. Judy Van de Water, an immunologist who works with Pessah at U.C. Davis. "Some vaccines, such as those aimed at viral infections, are designed to ramp up the immune system at warp speed," she says. "They are designed to mimic the infection. So you can imagine getting nine at one time, how sick you could be." In addition, she says, there's some evidence, that children who develop autism may have immune systems that are particularly slow to mature.

Van de Water worries that current vaccine schedules may be overly aggressive for some children. She suggests that parents who are concerned about vaccine safety ask their pediatricians to give fewer at a time. And, she adds, don't vaccinate a child when he or she is ill.

[trotsky]

27. Do you accept Van de Water as an expert, then?

Can I give you further quotes & research of hers to confirm you agree with her?

[Celebration]

28. Well, do you? n/t

[trotsky]

29. Welcome to 5th grade.

I asked you first. Will you accept her authority on all issues, or only this particular quote you cherry-picked?

[Celebration]

30. I thought your question was fourth grade

So I just picked it up a notch.

Now it has gone to third grade--

"I asked you first."

LOL

[trotsky]

33. As I figured.

Not willing to make that commitment.

[Celebration]

34. Go on and say whatever you want

Or quote her in a new thread that has something to do with the topic that you want to start, if it is not alternative vaccination schedules. I promise to read it.

You didn't even comment on her statement about vaccine schedules. Why not? Why should I answer some demand from you when you just abruptly change the subject from the one at hand? Talk about juvenlile..

If you are going to talk about the genetic nature of autism, which is where I know her research area lies, well OF COURSE we know that autism is genetic. Is that what you were getting at? Who knows? Go on and start a thread on a new topic.

In fact, there is even some question about the particular child in the case and whether her autism might have a connection to her mother's genes.

Autism is not all one disease, and it does not seem to have a single cause. But for sure there is a genetic component to a lot of it.

Of course, I am just guessing at what you were going to say. And you refuse to comment on her thoughts about vaccine schedules. What else is new?

[trotsky]

35. Hehe, glad to make you read up on her work.

She is an expert and is perfectly entitled to her opinion. Other experts disagree with her. The difference here is that she is basing her opinion on particular things she is researching. The attitude in this thread has been "oh, there's just too many". With absolutely no reasoning or facts to back it up. Maybe you can't see a difference - and that's a pity.

[Tumbulu]

31. so what is your issue?

When I took all my immunology courses back in the 70's we were taught that it was important for the body to be able to build up antibodies to the antigen and then at the critical time a booster of antigen was given so as to elicit as long an immune response as possible. Lifelong immunity was the goal, but often boosters every ten years to eighteen years are still needed. In my day it was considered important to allow the body to do its work and not overload it. This is the old school view I suppose. But this is what we were taught.

My old boss who used to run the labs I worked in (hold her PhD in biology) called me a few months ago. Her daughter had a baby and at it's two month check up the doctor wanted to give it all these shots. My friend (who also took all of her immunology coursework in the 70's) told her daughter to never go back to that doctor and to find another one and to only give one shot per visit. She was aghast and said to me over the phone "what is wrong with these people- didn't they ever take an immunology course?!"

So, perhaps you young guys all think multiple inoculations are OK. And maybe they are in many cases. As an adult I was given a huge number of them when I went into the Peace Corps and later when I got visas to go to Asia. And I survived and only got a little woozy from them. However idiotic you think my posts are.

Maybe it is an age thing. It is what I was taught by professors I had great respect for. And for many people of my age it makes sense to be cautious.

As I mentioned in a post above this in not a radical thought however as even my vet will only give two inoculations at a time. But, come to think of it, she is almost my age, so probably this is what she was taught as well.

Why do you feel the need to get so insulting about it all?

[trotsky]

32. If you think I'm insulting,

you must take offense when someone swears near you. Cripes.

"however idiotic you think my posts are"

No, I just didn't think your reading comprehension was all that great on this thread. I went through it all in the summary post which you ignored anyway. Thanks for that.

Obviously you don't want to discuss, only find some reason to take offense and do some insulting of your own. "you young guys". You have no clue how old I am. If I'd wanted to be insulting I guess I could have called you an old fart, huh? :eyes:

[Celebration]

36. Judy Van De Water looks pretty young

http://ffhi.ucdavis.edu/people/medical/judy-van-de-water

This has to do with people actually knowing what they are talking about, rather than age. I would be very suspicious of people on the internet who say that getting vaccines is the same as breathing germs that you encounter every day in the air.

:rofl:

[trotsky]

37. Yeah I'd be suspicious of that too.

Good thing I didn't say it! Do you know someone who did?