Dental amalgam is largest source of mercury in most adults and Mom's source of infant mercury

[philb]

1. Mercury is the most toxic substance that people commonly are exposed to. The U.S. EPA drinking water standard is 2 parts per billion. Mercury is in the top 3 of toxic exposures affecting large numbers of people. references: (1,4)

2. Dental amalgam is an unstable mixture of 50% liquid mercury with other toxic metals including copper, silver, tin. Since mercury is a gas at room temperature it vaporizes continuously from the amalgam mixture resulting in high levels of mercury in the oral air and saliva, as can be easily measured. Since amalgam is also a mixture of metals in an electrolyte(saliva) this results in galvanic currents that pump mercury and other toxic metals into the gums and oral mucosa, from which it is carried throughout the body by the blood and nerves. (24,27)

3. Dental Amalgam Fillings are the Largest Source of Mercury in most people who have amalgam fillings (2-22) and Daily Mercury Exposure from Amalgam Commonly Exceeds Government Health Standards for Inorganic Mercury(vapor). (4-10,19-21)

4. Medical tests show that those with several amalgam fillings have on average 10 times more mercury in feces and saliva than those without amalgam, and after amalgam replacement levels of mercury in feces and saliva decline approx. 90%, while mercury level in urine declines 75% on average. (19,13-15)

5. Elemental and inorganic mercury are methylated in the body to methyl mercury by bacteria, yeasts, etc. so that amalgam fillings are the largest source of methyl mercury in many people who have amalgams (17,18,13-15)

6. Mercury from amalgam is passed on to fetuses and infants through mother’s blood and milk, and Mother’s dental amalgam fillings are the largest source of mercury in most fetuses and infants prior to mercury containing vaccinations (12,26,21).

7. Dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most children who have amalgam fillings, and mercury level is directly proportional to the number of mercury fillings(11,21). Developmental effects on infants occur at low levels of mercury exposure and many thousands are known to be affected. (25,26,12,)



1. ATSDR/EPA Priority List for 2005: Top 20 Hazardous Substances, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, www.atsdr.cdc.gov/clist.html
2. Mark Richardson, Environmental Health Directorate, Health Canada, Assessment of Mercury Exposure and Risks from Dental Amalgam, 1995, Final Report.
3. World Health Organization(WHO),1991, Environmental Health criteria 118, Inorganic Mercury, WHO, Geneva; http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/medicalwaste/mercurypolpaper/en/print.html
4. (a) Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, U.S. Public Health Service, "Toxicological Profile for Mercury” March, 1999; page 7 & (b)Jan 2003 Media Advisory, New MRLs for toxic substances, MRL:elemental mercury vapor/inhalation/chronic & MRL: methyl mercury/ oral/acute; & www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mrls.html
5. Kingman A, Albertini T, Brown LJ, Mercury concentrations in urine and whole blood associated with amalgam exposure in a US military population., J Dent Res 1998 Mar;77(3):461-71 (population of over 1000 Air Force personnel; found each 10 amalgam surfaces increased mercury in urine by approx. 1 microgram per liter)
6. Dr. P.Kraub & M.Deyhle, Universitat Tubingen- Institut fur Organische Chemie, “Field Study on the Mercury Content of Saliva”, 1997 ; (tests at Tuebingen Univ. Health Clinic of over 20,000 people, amount of mercury in saliva increased on average approx. 1.5 micrograms per day per amalgam filling; 10% had mercury level greater than 100 micrograms; higher mercury levels were correlated with more chronic health conditions) www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/AMALGAM/EN/SCIENCE/tubingen.html
19. Doctors Data Inc.; Fecal Elements Test; P.O.Box 111, West Chicago, Illinois, 60186-0111; http://www.doctorsdata.com/repository.asp?id=43
& Biospectron Lab, LMI, Lennart Mansson International AB, [e-mail]; http://home.swipnet.se/misac/research11.html#biospectrons

Rest of References: www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Link

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZFVM2VRCL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Its-All-Your-Head-Amalgams/dp/0895295504/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202469851&sr=1-1
Dentist Huggins has led the fight to alert the public and health professionals to the dangers of using mercury in the amalgams used to fill teeth. Here he describes his battle with the American Dental Association and the results of his research studies. After explaining mercury toxicity, he describes such conditions as neurological and immunological diseases that can result from this toxicity. His discussion also includes the diagnosis of mercury toxicity and the pros and cons of having mercury amalgam fillings removed. He indicates that there are often no definitive answers in the diagnostic process and that the final proof of mercury toxicity is whether the patient feels better when mercury fillings are removed. A useful if very detailed look at a continuing health controversy. Karen Graves

[trotsky]

12. Hal Huggins = TOTAL FRAUD

He's totally in it for the money. You'd think as much as big pharma gets bashed around here for the profit motive, an equally critical eye would be turned toward these hucksters. No such luck, it seems.

[philb]

21. Actually not; one of most widely acknowledged experts on many issues & his books are among

most widely cited and quoted including by doctors and dentists throughout the world.
Huggins had MS, and cured himself by replacing his amalgam fillings, then went on to cure thousands more of MS and other such chronic
autoimmune conditions caused by mercury. Solving the MS Mystery by H. Huggins, 2002

He lost his licence not because he was not a competant dentist- he was one of the most highly trained and educated, has an MS is Science, does lots of research and publishes in peer-reveiwed journals. He lost his licence due to his speaking out about the millions of people who have had their health harmed by mercury put in their mouths by dentists. The dental establishment did not want dentists speaking out and exposing the liability of dentists for the billions of dollars of health harm that has been caused by amalgm mercury exposure.
The ADA also implemented a policy that no dentist could tell patients that mercury was highly toxic and commonly causes adverse effects in people who have amalgam fillings. Huggins is only one of many of the best and most highly trained dentists in the U.S. who have lost their licences for violating the ADA policy of not telling the public about the toxicity or harm caused by mercury.

But the ADA has now been discreditied on this issue, and several states have not only passed laws stating that dentist are free to talk to patients about mercury toxicity issues, but state law now requires dentists to warn patients about the toxicity and potential harm from amalgam fillings.

Huggins has been fully vindicated on the issues that caused the dental establishment to punish him for speaking out.
The Colorado Legislature even passed a bill making sure it never happens again in Colorado. The State of California had to disband the dental board in that state over similar issues.

Huggins claim that mercury commonly causes chronic autoimmune conditions like MS, Lupus, Thyroiditis, etc. now been confirmed by medical studies and medcial clinical experience. So he's been totally vindicated on this issue, and still is in extreme demand as a speaker at Dental and Medical Conferences in the U.S. and elsewhere.

for example:
Mercury & autoimmune conditions: MS/Lupus/Thyroiditis/Eczema

The following National Library of Medicine abstracted article documents that most autoimmune conditions like Multiple Sclerosis (MS), Lupus (SLE), Thyroiditis, etc. are primarily caused by mercury from dental amalgam, and replacement of dental amalgam brings about cure or significant improvement in the majority of cases. This has similarly been demonstrated in other clinics and studies.

The beneficial effect of amalgam replacement on health in patients with autoimmunity. Prochazkova J, Sterzl I, Kucerova H, Bartova J, Stejskal VD; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Jun;25(3):211-8.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_/25_3/NEL250304A07_Prochazkova_.pdf (this is one of many such)

Results of lymphocyte reactivity measured with MELISA indicate that in vitro reactivity after the replacement of dental amalgam decreased significantly to inorganic mercury, silver, organic mercury and lead.
All 6 patients with MS showed significant improvement in health.

Out of 15 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) 11 (73%) had improvement of health.

Out of 8 patients with autoimmune thyroiditis 6 showed significant improvement in health (75%).

5 patients undergoing amalgam replacement had atopic eczema for which other studies have found more diverse factors in autoimmunity causes. 3 out of 5 of these patients had significant improvement in condition (60%).
Of the patients that did not have evidence of significant improvement, most tested immune reactive to nickel and the autoimmunity measure was not improved at the end of the study. For those whose condition was worse, the autoimmunity measure for nickel was higher at the end of the study- indicating that amalgam replacement did not resolve the source of nickel exposure.

The mechanisms by which mercury causes autoimmune conditions like MS, SLE, autoimmune thyroiditis, rheumatoid arthritis, Parkinson’s, etc. is documented by hundreds of peer-reviewed studies and in thousands of people who have recovered after amalgam filling replacement and detoxification.
http://www.flcv.com/ms.html

Our organization has documented recovery after amalgam replacement of over 60,000 people from over 30 chronic conditions like MS, Lupus, etc. www.flcv.com/hgremove.html

[trotsky]

25. Actually, yes.

These are actual COURT FINDINGS with regards to Huggins. So before you try and bash it as coming from Quackwatch (which is the woo's worst nightmare), it's just listing the info.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/huggins.html

38. Respondent admits that he cannot prove the link between mercury from dental amalgam and disease but believes that he is entitled to rely on his clinical experience which suggests such a link.
...
72. Respondent testified that there are thousands of articles which establish that amalgam causes multiple sclerosis but was unable to give citations "off the top of his head."
...
110. As part of his diagnosis of mercury toxicity, Respondent uses a mercury toxicity questionnaire involving approximately 500 very general questions which are not connected to mercury toxicity and which have no diagnostic value. For example, the questionnaire inquires whether a patient has ever experienced emotional irritability, but this is not a sign or symptom of mercury toxicity.

FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Quackwatch is a fraud. I have caught him distorting the truth more than once. n/t

[trotsky]

46. Sure you have. But that's beside the point anyway.

Don't bash the source; he's just reprinting COURT FINDINGS.

Dispute the facts, if you can.

[philb]

49. I've posted links to Dept of Heath hearing transcriipts of the wacky Quackwatch people you quote

they say obsurd things that are totally not scientific and can't be backed up; all they do is spin, they have no substance.
Their disinformation was discredited by competant Univ. researchers on these issues, and they lost rather embarassingly.
I can post the links again if needed.
They've also gotten into a lot of trouble in court due to their silly statements which they can't support.

[lizerdbits]

51. Sounds like every post of yours

"they say obsurd things that are totally not scientific and can't be backed up; all they do is spin, they have no substance."

Assuming you meant absurd. Wait, wasn't there a "newbie" with similar punctuation, spelling and grammatical errors.......

[trotsky]

55. ADDRESS THE FACTS.

In this case, the Quackwatch website is simply the place where REAL COURT FINDINGS appear. Your hatred and fear of Quackwatch has absolutely nothing to do with this. A real live COURT found your hero Hal to be a complete and total greedy fraud. I'm sorry you've been fooled too.

[cosmik debris]

59. It has become an obsession, compulsion and aberrant behavior.

He has lost touch with reality.

He needs help.

[philb]

62. You are trying to change the subject from what this thread post is about since you

clearly can't find any evidence contrary to the Gov't agency and medical lab findings(but neither your nor quackwatch cites are accurate though this is not relevant to this thread)

What this thread is about:
That dental amalgam is by far the largest source of mercury in people who have several amalgam fillings &
that people with several amalgams have mercury levels approx. 10 times those without
www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

That mom's amalgam is a major source of mercury in the fetus and in infants, whose undeveloped neurological and immune systems are higly susceptable to neurotoxic effects
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html



that those with amalgams due to their extremely high exposures excrete high amounts of mercury into the sewer each day and thus amalgam is by far the largest source of mercury in sewers and sewer sludge,
and thus a major source in rivers, lakes, bays, fish,etc.

That due to outgassing of mercury from sewer sludge in landfills and land spread sludge and high mercury emissions from crematoria,
dental amalgam is a significant source of mercury air emissions and worldwide environmental contamination.
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

Because of these facts, most countries with modern medical systems not controlled by special interest money have banned use of mercury in dentistry and other uses or are in the process of banning or signif. limiting its use.

[trotsky]

103. ADDRESS THE FACTS.

You can't, so you're the one changing the subject and attacking the messenger.

Hal Huggins and the entire anti-amalgam movement is FRAUDULENT. And you can't prove otherwise.

[artist113]

106. Amalgam issue is for real-very dangerous-I experienced it

Mercury in any form under any circumstances is toxic and does not belong in the human body. It is as simple and uncomplicated as that. No need to call people names, get worked up, or anything else. It is the second most toxic substance known to exist on the planet. It should never be touched by people, injected into babies, placed in teeth, or be put into people or any other living thing in any other way unless the goal is to make them sick or to kill them.

After I had my mercury amalgam fillings (those dark metal ones in your teeth) removed a few years ago, I started recovering from a very long unexplained laundry list of health issues. None of these health issues seemed to be related unless you factored in the fact that I had 19 amalgams placed 40 years earlier and still had 11 of them that had not been crowned. Amalgams contain 50% mercury and mine were these huge reservoir looking things in my molars. Edge to edge fillings not just tiny little bits of filling.

I was tested for mercury and other heavy metals before I had my teeth redone. Mercury did not show up in my hair. It did show up very strongly in my urine. As I am no doubt not a good excreter of mercury out of my system that can explain why it didn't show up in my hair. Your system has to excrete the stuff in order to have it be in your hair as that is one of the systems used to excrete it. My system didn't get rid of it on its own. It accumulated all those years all over my body and especially in my brain and various glands. My endocrine system was messed up, I couldn't remember if I had fed the dog or locked the front door, I couldn't sleep, horrible depression, brain fog, speech issues, word finding problems, Rosacea (red and pus filled blotches on my face), early senile cataract surgery at 49, carpal tunnel syndrome, my mineral balance was completely off. Minerals that should be high were low and vice versa. I had restless leg syndrome, horrible night sweats, hot flashes, debilitating intolerance for heat, sneezing violently if chilled even a little bit, eye lids twitched, heart would race sometimes and scare me to death thinking I was going to die, blood sugar levels going up, blood pressure going up, the list goes on.

After amalgam removal and detoxing with agents that remove mercury, my urine mercury levels were nearly non-existent on subsequent testing. My other tests were much closer to being in normal range and in balance too.

Having my amalgams removed and detoxing stored mercury from my body saved my life and gave me my sanity back. Many of the worst of my symptoms have either gone away completely or have improved a great deal. I have hope for the future, don't mind getting older, sleep at night, have less pain overall,and generally feel much better and healthier.

People shouldn't have mercury amalgam placed in their teeth without being fully informed of what it is composed of and the possible damage it could cause. Poor people have no choice as that is all that Medicaid programs will pay for. The rich have always been able to pay for safer materials.

Doing research on orphans in a foreign country who have no one to protect them or stand up for their rights is just plain wrong. Leaving these children with mercury amalgams in their teeth and no information given to them to look out for reactions down the line is just wrong too. Anyone who thinks that amalgams are safe should sign up to be in the next research study. I would imagine it is very hard to find people willing to have mercury placed in their teeth on purpose. But, if you think it is safe, then by all means sign up for a study. Rather the willing than the innocent and uninformed.

Comparing hair samples for mercury toxicity doesn't work. The people who have the most reaction to it don't show it in their hair as it isn't being excreted from their bodies and that is the problem to begin with. So using that as the criteria doesn't work. Test their urine using a challenge test and then see what the results are. Until you see your own results come back marked "very high" levels of mercury, you really can't appreciate what all the fuss is about.

Certainly our medical and dental establishment wouldn't knowingly subject us to toxic substances. Or would they? For some reason they have to continue to defend the use of mercury in medical and dental treatments. I know it is cheap and easy to use but is that reason enough to expose people to it? Not in my book. We have ongoing epidemics of autism, diabetes, heart disease, MS, lupus, Parkinson's, alzheimer's, manic-depression, clinical depression, and yet we keep denying any connection to the second most toxic substance on the planet being used in vaccines and being placed in rather large quantities in people's teeth.

Why the ingrained disconnect? Why the outrageous responses when it is actually rather logical that mercury is probably the culprit? Why? What is there to be gained by continual and constant denial of the obvious? Huge profits for sure. Fending off of law suits probably. Keeping the status quo intact very likely. Job security. Saving face for sure. Not having all these sick people to sell prescription drugs to and losing obscene profits if they suddenly were healthy and not poisoned by mercury any longer.

There is talk about the consequences of the military industrial complex. What about the medical industrial complex? Now those are scary bed fellows. There are dangerous wackos out there, but they are not who you think they are. You keep shooting the messenger. The messenger is just trying to warn you and to save you and your children. Shooting him solves nothing and sets us all back 150 years to when the original dental association refused to use mercury amalgam right after the civil war as they it was very toxic. So, the solution was to disband the dental association and set up a new one that was pro-amalgam and that is what we have today, the American Dental Association, the ADA, those same people who promote the use of mercury in the material that is used to fill the teeth that are located just below your brain.

The ADA has been at it all these years and quite successfully too. They have defamed, accused, sued, put out of business, and had the equivalent of witch trials trying to keep the status quo going strong. You have to admit they are good at what they do, beating down dissenting voices who see the danger in what they are doing and who try to educate the public and government officials.

So, if you are reading this and trying to figure out who is right, the screaming defenders of the indefensible, or the logical, scientific evidence quoting, selfless person who only has your health and safety in mind. It doesn't appear to be a hard choice to me. Do your own research. There is a ton of it out there. So turn the volume down on screaming denials, think about the issues rationally, let it sink in that just perhaps the medical and dental professionals are wrong and misguided, that profits play a big role in everything that is done to us by them, that the ADA is a very major force to deal with and has immense power over dentists and as a lobbying agent in congress.

Remember that the American Medical Association, the AMA, thinks amalgam use is a dental issue and won't touch it and the ADA says the symptoms people exhibit are a medical issue and won't discuss any links to amalgam. Given this wonderful state of affairs is it any wonder the issue has gone on for so many years and is never completely resolved and dealt with. It is simple really. Ban mercury in any and all medical or dental procedures, period, end of story, end of argument. Ban it now, today. Then we will see if some of these epedemics subside. Wouldn't that be marvelous?

[cosmik debris]

107. Do you understand the difference

between anecdotal evidence and experimental data.

There is no experimental data to justify the conclusions you reach from your anecdotal evidence.

It is not there.

Superstition and fear mongering are not evidence.

[lizerdbits]

108. Again I ask

If you are "not a good excreter of mercury" why was it in your urine?

What logical scientific evidence person are you referring to? philb posts the same links over and over that are either 40 years old, don't draw the conclusions he says they do, or claims scientific evidence from surveys or message board posts.

[artist113]

116. To answer the question about mercury being released in urine and not hair

It was in my urine because I took a strong chelator to bring it out of my tissues and that released it into my urine. I then collected my urine for six hours and it was sent to a lab for testing. This was all done through my doctor's office. Collecting urine in this way, one time only after using a strong chelator, creates what is called a challenge test. You can't duplicate this with hair testing as hair grows very slowly, obviously. Mercury doesn't show up in blood tests either as it doesn't remain circulating in the blood very long. It finds places to settle in various tissues where it damages the organs and where it causes a lot of havoc. It also crosses the blood brain barrier quite readily and settles in the brain. It can cross to the fetus via the placenta and damage a baby while it is still in the womb. It is a neurotoxin and a strong one.

Taking the strong chelator is not recommended on a regular basis while one still has amalgams in their teeth as it can bring the metals out of the amalgam and spread them around other parts of the body where they are very likely to settle in. It is only used for this purpose until after amalgams are safely removed without exposing the patient to even more mercury during removal. After removal there are protocols for taking different chelators over a period of several years to remove the stored mercury from the tissues. I did that for three years off and on.

I was also tested for other heavy metals at the same time. I was high in uranium from drinking water that comes down through deposits of granite in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Also told to me by my doctor. I have lived my entire life either drinking the water in Los Angeles which comes down from these mountains, living in these mountains, or living in the river valley where the water flows through on its way to the sea. Pretty hard to avoid drinking uranium it turns out. I was high in aluminum which is in amalgams, deodorants, cookware, etc. Also high in tin another metal that is used in dental amalgam.

I was methodical in getting all the tests done beforehand and then after chelating/detoxing for a number of months. I have before and after blood work, hormone panel, heavy metals and minerals, hair test, all of it. I did a lot of reading, researched doctors and dentists, read about protocols, and knew exactly what I wanted done. It isn't easy to do this while you are mercury toxic. It does so much damage to your ability to think clearly, to follow through, to remember things, to cope with stress, to not just curl up and give up.

Usually, by the time people are as sick as I was, they are not able to work at anything that earns any money and often they can't work at all. These people are too young for social security, don't qualify for welfare, have used up their savings trying to get help with all of the health issues they are suffering from, don't have medical insurance, and are written off at hypochondriacs or neurotics by doctors. They go from specialist to specialist trying to find someone to help them. No one can help them. There are no pills that can overcome the effects of mercury toxicity. You nor anyone else can talk you out of it. It has many manifestations, effects many systems of the body, and causes myriads of unrelated problems. You know how awful you feel yet the tests run by doctors don't show anything specific. I have been tested for brain tumors, inner ear tumors, multiple sclerosis, diabetes, etc., with thankfully negative outcomes but still no help. I had vertigo that nearly brought my whole life and existence to a screeching halt. I wasn't sure I could continue to work or drive a car or sometimes even walk. It went away but the fear and threat of more attacks lasted for decades.

I had to refinance my house to pay for the all the testing, amalgam removal, new crowns in case there was any mercury left underneath the old ones when they were placed, which is not unusual it turns out. You can't tell from x-rays whether there is amalgam left under crowns as part of the base and dentists don't always make notes about things like that in your records, which I got from my previous dentists.

Mercury is just as toxic now as it was 40 years ago. As it was 150 years ago during the civil war. Nothing has changed. Why, if there was valid research 40 years ago that showed, without a doubt, that mercury was damaging people when it was used in amalgams, would that research have to be done over again. It should have stopped the use of amalgam back then. On the spot. Immediately. But it didn't. The research was ignored and amalgam has continued to be used, taught in dental schools, recommended by the ADA, forced on poor children, and not adequately investigated by the FDA and its damage never caught the intellectual curiosity of the medical professionals. They shined it on as someone else's problem and nothing to do with them. It was a dental issue and should be handled by the dental profession.

Research has to be paid for. Somebody with lots of money has to want to find out the truth. You know very well that numbers can be made to say anything you want them to say. That repeating something often enough and loud enough can make it sound like the truth, even if it isn't. Besides who in their right mind would volunteer to be a part of the study. Not me, I can assure you. I feel like I was already part of a study, without my consent, and then the results were just thrown out because someone didn't like the answers they got.

I did my homework. I interviewed dentists who were recommended to me by my doctor, his nurse, etc. They were not supportive of what I knew I had to do to save my life. I did find two dentists in the area who would do what I wanted. One redid the fillings, very slowly and cautiously, doing only one the first time to make sure I didn't have a reaction. The other redid the crowns with new ones that don't contain any metals, are solid porcelain, and removed any remaining amalgam from underneath them. I am metal free, at least as far as my teeth are concerned.

I would do it all again in a heartbeat. I was 58, from a family that lives into their nineties, and I felt like someone in my 80's already. My parents were in the 80's at the time and they had more energy than I did and were generally healthier. I had to have two or three days to recuperate from any activity I did such as driving long distances, working, house keeping chores, shopping, everything. I took six or more naps a day. Even fun stuff was hard on me. I had to meter out activities and not take on too much or I would be bedridden.

The prospect of living into my nineties was not a pleasant idea. I had vowed that at some point when it got too unbearable, that I would find a way to take my life before I got so sick I couldn't pull it off. After I had my teeth done and chelated for a while I started feeling like someone in their 30's or 40's. I had applied for Social Security Disability during all of this but by the time I was interviewed by their doctor I was doing a lot better. My case was denied and I didn't try to appeal it. I would rather be able to work and have control over my own life than live under their restrictive rules.

I am still working part time and most of the time it isn't too hard on me. Between my disability retirement pension (since age 49) and working part time for less than $10 an hour as a care provider for a friend who has cerebral palsy, I make enough to survive. I haven't been able to do any other jobs for years even though I had a good education, had lots of skills, was adaptive to different types of work, and have always been a life long learner with multiple interests. The damage I suffered was so widespread it left me unemployable for any practical purpose.

I am fine now with living into my 90's or even 100's. My aunt died at 99 and a half. Maybe I can beat her record. Some people don't appear to be bothered by amalgams until you find out that they have high blood pressure, are diabetic, have road rage, are terribly impatient, cannot tolerate light or noise, are heat sensitive, sneeze violently with the slightest change in temperature, have manic-depression, clinical depression, poor anger management, social issues, have word finding problems, catch every cold and flu that comes along, come down with every virus, can't get pregnant, can't carry a pregnancy to term, have to take Viagra for ED, get infections all the time, have walking pneumonia twice a year, thyroid disorders, endocrine system disorders, vertigo, hearing losses, visual issues, stomach problems, sleep disturbances, behavior issues, can't remember anything, have allergies, asthma, other lung issues, various cancers, bleeding disorders, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, lupus, Lou Gehrig's or ALS, issues with their intestines, osteoporosis, early senile cataracts, Rosacea, or any number of other problems that are not normal even though we have learned to accept them as normal or part of aging or "what everybody deals with."

Or we accept them as genetic disorders we just have to deal with. They run in our family so we don't even try to figure out why we are suffering from them. They become part of our identity. My lupus, my allergies, my asthma, etc. They define who we are. Sometimes we don't want to let go of them even if someone shows us how to get rid of them. We have been so brainwashed that it is normal to have all these issues that we don't even question why so many of us have so many different health issues.

We have been brainwashed also that there is a pill out there that can fix whatever you've got. Read the list of side effects and you realize that we just add more issues with the pills that we are told will fix what is wrong or at least make it not so noticeable. None of this is normal. None of this should be like this. We have been carefully and skillfully convinced that unhealthy is normal and we just have to accept it as part of living. We are not encouraged to take responsibility for our own health management.

We are not encouraged to be truth seekers. We are not encouraged to question the bestowed wisdom of medical professionals. And when someone tries to inform us we call them a liar, close our minds to what they say, try to shut them down, refuse to believe they might be right, resist accepting the idea that we need to insist upon being told the truth, resist wanting to investigate to find out the truth. It upsets our comfort zones.

It goes against our long held beliefs and asks us to take responsibility for our own well being. It might force us to take action rather than just sit and let other people make our decisions for us. It might even force us to change the way we think, the way we live, what we eat, what we drink, what medical procedures we agree to or not. We couldn't be passive victims anymore if we allowed any truth to seep into our tightly controlled little worlds. We also couldn't sit by and let things continue the way they have been once we know the truth.

Once we know the truth, we inherit the obligation to inform other people so they don't have to suffer needlessly the way we did. It is a thankless job, exhausting, and doesn't provide much in the way of rewards but we have to do it anyway. We have to spread the truth and stop the vicious circle of denial and complacency that perpetuates the continued use of known dangerous substances such as mercury in any medical or dental setting. We no longer identify ourselves by our health issues. We identify ourselves as truth seekers and truth sharers. We are no longer victims. We are advocates. Even when we get beaten down for a spell, we invariably come back and advocate and share the truth some more. It is absolutely essential that the truth be told and that people listen to it. It is primal in some of us to continue doing this especially when the stakes are this high. It is just too important an issue to remain silent.

[cosmik debris]

117. You got ripped off by a con man

Chelation therapy is not approved for use for any condition except extreme heavy metal poisoning as confirmed by blood tests. Any doctor who uses chelation therapy for any purpose other than that is in violation of FDA guidelines.

You were taken to the cleaners by a quack. And judging from your description of your current situation, it didn't do you a lot of good.

Heavy metal toxicity is dose dependent. No one doubts that mercury is toxic, but in very small doses it is not harmful. There is no scientific evidence to support your conclusions.

I am sorry you are having a rough time, but you stand a lot better chance for improvement if you find the real cause and stop blaming phantoms, conspiracies, and superstitions.

[artist113]

132. Ah, the fatal flaw in the argument, blood tests for mercury

As I said previously, mercury doesn't show up in blood tests, so how could you expect to ever show up as mercury toxic. With that requirement in place it follows that no one is mercury toxic and therefore there is no problem. How convenient! Now who put that little gem of a requirement in place? It would be interesting to track it down to its source. What brilliant lawyer or bureaucrat thought that up. It certainly could not have been any reputable scientist who wasn't employed, bought and paid for by a corporation or the ADA. Mercury is toxic at any level. There are no safe levels.

My doctor didn't treat me he only tested me. I read and decided what to do on my own. So I was not taken to the cleaners by a quack. I was an informed consumer who made my own decisions and took my own calculated risks.

And don't even get me started on the FDA. That agency has been completely taken over by former corporate "get rid of any regulation that gets in the way of making huge profits" advocates. Now just what aspect of what they do protects us, consumers and trusting citizens, from being systematically poisoned via approved procedures sanctioned by the FDA? The wolves are guarding the hen houses and this hen is carrying her own shotgun to keep them at bay. I have no trust, no respect, and no faith in the actions of the FDA.

Our president jabbers on about "faith based initiatives" and we end up with federal agencies that are systematically being undermined due to bad faith decisions. Eventually we won't have any faith in them and will be glad to see them go when they are finally disbanded because they don't do what they were intended to do to safeguard the American people. They will be just another expensive useless bureaucratic agency and it will be easy to get everyone on board to shut them down and save the tax payers money. Then who will make all the decisions. If you said the corporations, you would be right.

They do now anyway. Big corporations decide we should be vaccinated, have mercury placed in our teeth, prescribed toxic pills for every little problem we have, have our water fluoridated without our knowledge or consent, drive cars that spew toxic crud out the exhaust. They grow our food with massive amounts of pesticides that kill bugs in small amounts and which accumulate in the soil and in our bodies. They mass produce our food and put non-nutrient additives in it so it will keep on the shelf for five years without spoiling. They decide it is okay to contaminate our lakes and streams and rivers, catch every last fish in the sea, poison our air and waterways with mercury from coal fired power plants, build nuclear power plants that produce radioactive waste that will be here somewhere on the planet FOREVER, and that have the potential to malfunction and kill hundreds of thousands of people now during our lifetimes. Huge corporations can campaing against climate change with multi million dollar ad campaigns. Ad campaigns paid for by profit driven entities are deciding our future and educating the masses on how they should think.

The corporations wrote the energy bill that we all have to live with. They decide which living things are expendable whether it be wildlife, trees, or people. I for one, do not want to be part of their acceptable collateral damage statistics when something goes wrong, and it always does you know. Just in case you are not old enough or aware enough to remember nuclear power plant accidents, asbestos contamination of whole towns, pesticide oversprays of populations some on purpose some by accident, trains carrying tanker cars full of chlorine gas and the likes that spill as they travel right through the middle of our towns and cities. All of these things are done with the blessing of the FDA. As long as the "economy" is good, human suffering on a grand scale is acceptable collateral damage.

We, as a people, as a nation, as compassionate human beings, must insist that the madness stop, now, not 25 years down the road, now. We have to stop being a nation that looks the other way when the economy comes before the health and well being of the people that are supposedly benefiting by the wonderful way of life the economy affords us. If you are sick from continuous exposure to a toxic substance like mercury, the economy is the last thing you are thinking about. People should not be expendable and sacrificed on the altar of profit margins.

Mercury is not safe at any level, even very small doses. Do you think the same logic applies to strychnine, arsenic, lead, or any other poison? Are you willing to sign up for very small doses of mercury every day of your life for 40 years? And then compound the mercury doses with uranium, tin, aluminum, fluoride, lead from old pipes, and all sorts of other toxins, pesticides, chlorine, herbicides, cadmium, car exhaust, factory fumes, defoliants, etc. To say that very small doses of mercury is not harmful is insane and misleading to people who don't understand just how toxic and harmful mercury is. There is scientific evidence to support mercury is horribly poisonous and there always has been. There is hundreds of years of experience with it to know that it kills whatever it comes in contact with. The fact that mercury is poisonous at any level is so well known that it is just part of the public domain of information. It is just conveniently ignored. We are back to the practice of repeating the same thing over and over until we hope that someone starts believing it in spite of it being absolutely untrue.

You are a danger to anyone reading your words. Just what do you get out of this vicious attack style you engage in on here? Are you paid to do this? Do you just hate other people so much you want to see them suffering? Please explain to everyone who reads this just who you are and why you seem to get so much glee out of attacking a 62 year old woman. One who shared her success story, shared her take on the situation, reached out to other people to let them know there might be help to stem the escalation of their multiple health issues. One whose life has turned around. And where in what I said did you materialize the idea that I haven't been helped by all that I did? How can you turn my words around to come up with that conclusion?

I am not the same person I was five years ago. Yes I still have some issues and maybe I always will. But nothing even close to what I was dealing with five years ago. After 40 years of daily toxic levels of exposure to a highly poisonous substance, I would expect that some of the damage is permanent. You can't abuse your body like that for 40 years and walk away unscathed. At least I don't have MS, or lupus, or ALS, or Parkinson's. I am one of the lucky ones to have recuperated to the level that I have. I read the stories of others who are still suffering severely and have no means to fix their situation and who will probably die extended, slow, agonizing deaths from something that is preventable and that never should have been introduced into their bodies in the first place.

Knowingly exposing people to daily doses of a lethal substance is abusive, criminal, and sociopathic at it's core. People who support the practice are guilty by association of the same.

Phantoms, conspiracies, and superstitions. That is rich. I can't even imagine what you mean by phantoms, so I won't even try to address it. Conspiracies are sometimes done in the name of helping people, by people who think they are doing the right thing. They are still conspiracies even if done for all the "right" reasons. If they are knowingly done on purpose, calculated before hand as to just how many might die or suffer with discussions about whether those numbers are acceptable collateral damage, based and sold on lies, misinformation, secret agendas, profit, power, control, then yes, they are conspiracies. There is no place in our health care system for conspiracies. There is no place in any part of our public life for conspiracies. We are supposed to be an open society. We haven't reached that yet and in fact we are going the other direction. We have more secrets, lies, and hidden agendas in our public discourse than ever before. Are we better off for it? I don't think so. And just what part of what I said makes me superstitious?

[cosmik debris]

134. Mercury does show up in blood tests.

That is why the FDA approved chelation therapy for mercury toxicity verified by blood tests.

You have my sympathy. But you need professional help.

[philb]

148. But blood tests are not accurate indications of body burden, as is well known and documented

The average length of time that mercury vapor from dental amalgam lasts in the blood is less than 10 seconds.
(370) Magos L, Clarkson TW, Hudson AR. The effects of dose of elemental mercury and first pass circulation time on organ distribution of inorganic mercury in rats. Biochem Biophys Acta 1989; 991(1):85-9.

The heart pumps the blood all over the body and the mercury vapor crosses cell membranes mostly into a major organ like the brain, heart, lungs, liver kidneys, hormone organs, etc. extremely rapidly and is converted to inorganic mercury where it gets locked up and accumulates in the major organs over time. The mercury in the brain and other major organs has been documented to accumulate in direct proportion to the number of amalgam fillings in the person and with time, with autopsy studies showing that it accumulates to high levels in those with several amalgam fillings. www.flcv.com/amalg6.html

Ethyl and methyl mercury likewise don't last in the blood long, with methyl lasting the longest in the blood but only a month of so on average. So blood only measures very recent acute exposure. Since mercury vapor and ethyl mercury cross the cell membranes more readily, those types of mercury accumulate faster and more in the organs and do more general widespread harm throughout the body.

The accumulation of mercury in all of the major organs is one of the reasons for those with amalgams commonly getting chronic conditions affecting all of the various organs and systems, cardiovascular www.flcv.com/cardio.html
, neurological www.flcv.com/neurohg.html

hormonal/endocrine www.flcv.com/endohg.html



immune/autoimmune www.flcv.com/immunere.html
www.flcv.com/ms.html
Allergic conditions/asthma/etc.
www.flcv.com/inflamhg.html


The fact that blood is not an accurate test for mercury level has been well documented in the literature: www.flcv.com/damspr17.html
the reason is that much of the mercury moved rapidly into the body organs

[cosmik debris]

149. More of you bogus links? Nobody believes you, you are a fraud

There is no point in discussing this with you. I proved that you are a fraud. I don't see any need to continue proving it over and over.

[philb]

152. There are no bogus links; as I've shown and anyone can determine

You have never provided one shread of evidence that anything I've posted is not entirely accurate, and you can't
Because what I posted represents clear scientific consensus, with my main references being the summary document statements of
U.S, Dept of Health, EPA, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, measurements by Municipal Sewer agencies confirmed by EPA, WHO,
and medical lab tests confirmed on their site.

You haven't and can't find a single credible source or credible expert to contradict what I posted and is documented in
www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

[cosmik debris]

155. I caught you red handed posting a fraudulent lab report.

You can pretend it is not true just like you pretend that your other links are true. But it is clear tho see that you are a fraud.

Nobody believes you.

You are excused. You may leave now.

[philb]

150. for similar reasons, hair tests are also not accurate measures of mercury body burden

People are divided into 3 Apoloprotein APOE blood allele types, which greatly affect their ability to excrete mercury and affect who is most affected by mercury toxicity.
www.flcv.com/suscept.html

Type 2s can excrete mercury easily and hair tests for type 2s are directly proportional to body burden and exposure.

But for type 4s, their blood allele type is unable to move mercury out of the cells and it accumulates so these are the ones who primarily get autism and who get Alzheimer's and MS and Parkinson's and Lupus, etc. at fairly early ages.

In general in populations of mercury toxic individuals like autistic kids, the hair level is not indicative of body burden, and the correlation is actually negative. Those with the most body burden have the lowest hair levels. Which is one of the many reasons why the Sechelles mercury study was bogus. It was well known that the measure of exposure used in the study was not valid, so the study was basically a useless exercise though well publicized although all credible experts on mercury knew it was bogus and not valid.
www.flcv.com/seychelr.html

and same for one of the studies cited on one of the other threads that wrongly assumed that hair levels were valid measures of body burden or exposure.
see the above paper on susceptability factors for the documentation

this is well known to doctors who commonly treat mercury related conditions like autism, MS, etc.
but also has been documented in the medical literature.

[cosmik debris]

151. More fraudulent citations?

How many time will you embarrass yourself?

[philb]

153. Since anyone can easily determine that there are no fradulent citations, you embarass yourself

You have never found or documented any bogus or fraudulent references here.
A few of the links in our original study to Government web site have changed over time but most transfer you on to correct site
and I provided the correct link to the only one that did not do this.
All of the documentation is correctly cited in www.flcv.com/damspr1.html which was provided in my original post.

See my response to your post that earlier made this claim.

So all of the cites are to real references that really say what I said they did, and no one has or could provide any evidence to the contrary.


So why do you keep embarassing yourself by making false and inaccurate claims that you can't support.
This is getting old.

[lizerdbits]

154. It is getting old

You were busted with bullshit links and you keep making a complete ass out of yourself. Are you really that stupid or are you mentally ill? When we said you were spamming you accused us of spamming and now when we say you're embarrassing yourself you say we are embarrassing ourselves. It's really sad to see you do this and I hope you get some help.

[cosmik debris]

156. Now that I have proved that you are a fraud

It is really sort of fun to watch you squirm.

Get used to it. from now on, when you post here you will see philb=fraud.

philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud


OOOOO That's fun. Let's do it again.


philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud philb=fraud

[philb]

164. People who claim to have proved fraud when they know they haven't are worse than frauds

You haven't provided a single source or shread of evidence that anything I posted was inaccuarate, so it seems to me that its pretty sick or disfunctional when people claim things without being able to back it up. My main references are Gov't policy statements or summary Gov't statements based on large studies, as we've seen. And all references are easily seen as accurate and cites have been seen as accurate. I would think it should be rather embarassing to you to keep claiming this when we've seen that all of my references are accurate and credible and fully support everything that I claimed.

Again, what is it that in my post you think was not accurate?

that amalgam is largest source of mercury in most people with amalgams is clearly supported and scientific consensus. There is no credible evidence to the contrary.

that people with amalgam get exposures and excrete 10 times more than those without is also fully supported by huncreds of thousands of medical lab tests, summarized on the med. lab web site and lots of other documentation.


that amalgam is the largest source of mercury in sewers is documented by large EPA and Municipal Sewer agencies studies measuring such and accurately referenced.

That amalgam is largest source of mercury in most Moms and largest source in the fetus is fully documeted as well.

So which of these do you not agree with, and why? And which do you think not fully supported by my references.
You haven't supplied a single shread of evidence, yet keep making bogus claims.

[cosmik debris]

168. Give my regards to Mrs. Sample Patient LOL!

philb=fraud

:rofl:

[philb]

165. Doc. people with several amalgams get daily mercury exposure far exceeding Gov't health guidelines

Mercury exposure of most people with fillings was found to exceed government health standards and levels found to cause adverse health effects(see below).

The tolerable daily exposure level for mercury developed in a report for Health Canada is .014 micrograms/kilogram body weight(ug/kg) or approximately 1 ug/day for average adult(2).
The U.S. EPA Health Standard for elemental mercury exposure(vapor) is 0.3 micrograms per cubic meter of air(1).
The U.S. ATSDR health standard(MRL) for mercury vapor is 0.2 ug/ M3 of air, and the MRL for methyl mercury is 0.3 ug/kg body weight/day(4).
For the average adult breathing 20 M3 of air per day, this amounts to an exposure of 4 or 6 ug/day for the 2 elemental mercury standards.
The EPA health guideline for methyl mercury is 0.1 ug/kg body weight per day or 7 ug for the average adult(1). This corresponds to a level of 1 ug/gram in hair which is the EPA reference level for mercury hair test. These limits are much lower for children.

The range of mercury exposure levels found in people with amalgam fillings by
the World Health Organization Scientific Panel on Mercury was 3 to 70 micrograms per day(3), with other medical studies finding up to 500 ug/day in gum chewers or people who grind their teeth(6,11,16,17,18) or some with large numbers of fillings.

The average amount absorbed into the body was above 10 ug/day (ref. 3 18) but exposure levels are much higher since for those who can excrete mercury some is not absorbed but rather excreted into sewers. Due to the high exposure levels to those with mercury amalgams, dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in sewers. www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

Note that the amount of mercury excreted in feces, as opposed to absorbed, is much higher than most of these estimates of mercury absorbed by the body. Daily excretion through feces amounted to from 30 to 190 ug of mercury, being more variable than other paths(7). Other studies had similar findings(9,12,17-19) . Most with several amalgams had daily fecal excretion levels over 50 ug/day.

In a large German study with 20,000 tested subjects at a University Medical Clinic, the average exposure from fillings was over 10 ug/day from saliva alone, and over 50 % of all those with 6 or more amalgam fillings had daily exposure from their saliva exceeding the EPA health guideline(6). Mercury level in saliva was what was measured in the study. People also get significant exposures from breathing their oral air since the level in oral air from vaporizing mercury commonly exceeds the Gov’t OSHA health standard for mercury in work places.

References for everything above: www.flcv.com/amalno1.html

Exposure levels through oral air:

One study that looked at exposure levels from oral estimated a daily average burden of 20 ug from ionized mercury from amalgam fillings absorbed through the lungs(191), while a Norwegian study found the average level in oral air to be 0.8 ug/M3(176). Another study at a Swedish University(335) measured intraoral air mercury levels from fillings of from 20 to 125 ug per day, for persons with from 18 to 82 filling surfaces. Other studies found similar results(83,95), and some individuals have been found to have intraoral air mercury levels above 400 ug/ M3 (319). Most of those whose intraoral air mercury levels were measured exceeded U.S. Gov’t health guidelines for workplace exposure(2).

References: www.flcv.com/amalg6.html

[cosmik debris]

170. It is a fake lab report. Thats all philb=fraud.

You have nothing. You got caught in a lie.

It is fun watching you squirm, but it is too late for excused.

You got busted.

I proved that you are a fraud.

:rofl:

[lizerdbits]

120. You are aware

that pretty much everyone has metals in their system that are toxic in larger dosage because they are naturally occurring in the environment? I hope someone told you that before you refinanced your house.

In your previous post you said the mercury was not in your hair but in your urine because you were a bad mercury excreter. Chelation is usually only done for acute exposures.

[artist113]

136. Acute exposures to mercury vs merely long term chronic exposure and chelation

Sure, mercury is one of those naturally occurring elements in the environment but does that mean that people should intentionally go out and mine it in huge quantities, bring it up to the surface, truck it to factories, mix it with other toxic metals and use it to fill cavities in people's teeth? No it doesn't. It is one thing for us to be careful not to be exposed to naturally occurring elements in the environment, but mercury amalgams are not naturally occurring elements in the environment. They are intentional implants into the bodies of unsuspecting human beings, including young children.

Coal fired power plants are intentional structures that spew mercury into the air which falls to earth and contaminates our lakes and streams and then washes out to sea and contaminates all the creatures in the sea to the point that it isn't safe to eat big predator fish. Fish don't excrete mercury from their systems at all, ever, so they just accumulate it and it builds in quantity as it goes up the food chain until we catch some big salmon or marlin or shark or whatever and then we ingest it. But, would these same fish have ever had so much mercury in their systems if we hadn't intentionally and knowingly, as a society either nationally or globally, burned coal and released the mercury into the air in the first place? No.

People often die very soon after acute exposures to mercury as it is so poisonous. That is a completely different issue and has to be addressed differently. You want to hope and pray that never happens to you or anyone you know or love or even a stranger for that matter. Not something you would ever wish on any living thing.

Chronic long term exposure merely makes you live a half life existence for decades. You are not dead but you certainly aren't fully alive either. People who suffer from mercury toxicity are cheated out of many of the activities, experiences, and pleasures of life. If you think about it, chelating for long term exposure makes a lot of sense as there is a chance you might actually save someone from years of suffering and an early death. But, first you have to assess where the exposure is coming from. Chelating while someone still has amalgams makes no sense since the chelating agent will drag the mercury out of the amalgams and distribute it around to other locations and then it will store and accumulate in tissues. So, you have to get rid of the amalgams first before chelating. Then you have a good chance of recovery or at least improvement.

Better yet, don't have amalgams placed in the first place. Don't take a chance. Just say no. Then you will only have to deal with exposure from other sources and hopefully your system will have a chance at excreting these occasional assaults.

[lizerdbits]

142. I have amalgam fillings

and I won't be duped by anyone who tells me I'm being poisoned by them if I ever have serious health problems. Sorry you spent all that money.

[philb]

158. I can guarantee you have high mercury exposure and high acculations in brain, heart, and all major

organs. And that your health has been adversely affected. Some are just affected more than others, depending on susceptability factors like immune reactivity and blood allele type (APOE 2,3 or 4) which determines who is affected most.

But even if you are type 2 blood allele type and excrete mercury well, you are accumulating large amounts of mercury in your organs which is well documented in the medical literature.

See the Dental Organization study by Kingman in first post that measured mercury level in 1000 military people. No exceptions,
all who had amalgam had high exposures and excreted high levels of mercury directly proportionate to the number of fillings.
And the autopsy studies I've provide links to document that the levels in major organs accumulate to high levels over time, though to higher levels in APOE type 4s.

If we were to do some medical tests, I can assure you that advere effects would be found. Mercury is extremely cytotoxic and neurotoxic and immunotoxic and endocrine disrupter. Your exposure is likely more than 10 micrograms per day easily measurable by ordering the doctorsdata fecal mercury test www.doctorsdata.com
Want to bet on the results? I would be willing if such is legal?
(even if you had only 1 microgram that is billions of atoms of mercury and every atom will do significant harm to any brain or nerve or other type of cell that it comes in contact with, extreme cytotoxicity) (and you have lots in your brain, which may be why you seem to be having a hard time understanding these issues)

Likewise if you were to do a chelation challenge test I would be willing to bet on high body burden proven.
same lab but urine test, chelator like DMSA or DMPS or etc.

There have been millions of such tests done by medical labs and the results are consistent, as seen on the medical lab site I gave the URL to.
if you have several amalgams, you have levels approx 10 times my levels. We can both be tested and compare results. I've had lots of tests before and after removal. As the studied I've cited indicate, after amalgam replacement levels in saliva and feces decline about 90 % pretty rapidly.
www.flcv.com/damspr1.html
see studies on change in levels after replacement

as I've also noted before BW was totally disabled by mercury toxicity, as diagnosed by his GP and Neurologist, who happens to be the one of the most prestegious in the country. and he has totally recovered after amalgam replacement. That's also been documented for over 60,000 others that we are aware of
www.flcv.com/hgremove.html
lots of these are peer-reviewed studies and all are documented.
Here are some from FDA,etc. likewise You can see most people who replace amalgam have significant health improvements for most conditions:
www.flcv.com/hgrecovp.html

[lizerdbits]

159. DO NOT OFFER MEDICAL TESTING

You are not a doctor. I do not currently have health problems, and certainly no symptoms of mercury toxicity and if I did I'd see a real doctor. Neither do my parents and grandmothers who have had fillings for decades. I'm not giving you any money or buying shit from your site. Get lost.

[cosmik debris]

160. LOL! philb=fraud LOL!

:rofl:

[artist113]

171. I am sorry you are so hard headed, not sorry I spent the money.

Somehow I don't completely believe that. If you or a loved one were faced with a situation where no one could solve your/their health issues. Where you had gone to every specialist out there, been tested, and no one knows what to do for you or your loved one. If this was your child going through this and the suffering went on for years with no relief. Where she, your child, developed new agonizing symptoms on top of an already long list of debilitating symptoms. If all you could do was just watch her suffer. I think you would consider the removal of the amalgam fillings in her teeth. In a heartbeat. You couldn't watch your child suffer knowing there was a chance that simply replacing her fillings might bring her relief from terrible health issues. You would do chelation therapy too.

You would try anything to save her. And you would do anything to save yourself too. And, you would refinance your house to do it, if that is what it took. It is called being a parent and/or having a will to live, whichever fits the situation.

[lizerdbits]

174. I am not hard headed, I go by evidence

What you are describing is grasping at straws when there is no diagnosis. If you were certain that your fillings were the problem then you probably did feel better after they were removed- it's called the placebo effect. Please keep in mind the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence.

[cosmik debris]

175. You're just jealous

You don't get to be the soulless attack dog like trotsky :)

Keep practicing and you may graduate to devilish dingo, wicked wolf of some other canine reference. :)

[lizerdbits]

176. *sniffle*

I try but I'm so inadequate. :cry:

[artist113]

180. Only because you never actually responded to the issue

Answer the question both of you, or all of you who so adamantly oppose the idea that mercury in amalgams is detrimental to health. I would like to hear from all of you. Would you really watch your child suffer rather than have their amalgams removed? This is the real test. Answer the question. Don't sidestep, get sarcastic, or get cute. Tell us what you would do.

P.S. I like devilish dingo. I will have to remember that one. Thanks.

[cosmik debris]

182. I would seek out two (2) pediatricians

Board Certified pediatricians, members of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

I would certainly NEVER put my child through a life threatening procedure like chelation based on the word of one doctor who takes a very unpopular stand on a controversial issue.

And I would NEVER mortgage my home until I had heard both sides of the story from professionals who are well qualified and accredited in their field.

I would also seek out specialists such as endocrinologists, neurologists, or hematologists.

Chelation can be fatal. It should NEVER be done without a doctor's close supervision.

[artist113]

185. Good answer and good advice, back to the main question.

What if, after seeing all these specialists, board certified
pediatricians, etc., they all just shook their heads and said,
"I don't know what is wrong. I have no answer for you. 
She will just have to live with it.  Good luck and God
bless."  Or they said she had some progressive disorder
that could kill her eventually and they can't do anything
about it.  She is still sick and getting sicker.  You have
spent months, maybe years trying to get appointments with
specialists, getting referrals, testing, MRI's, CT Scans,
traveling all over the country, spending thousands of dollars,
getting the brush off, being treated as a neurotic, obsessing
parent. And she is still suffering.  New issues and problems
keep cropping up.  You track down another specialist. 

What if she couldn't ride her bike anymore, or dance, or ski,
or swim because of dizziness, was put into special ed because
she couldn't keep up in school, couldn't play in the sun
because it made her head hurt and she felt like she was going
to pass out, she couldn't sleep at night because of restless
leg syndrome (and night sweats and a sensation like a blow
torch on her legs), her eyelids twitched and make reading
difficult, what if her memory just gets worse and worse, her
speech is affected and her word finding ability, she starts
not wanting to go anyplace or be around people because she
doesn't have the energy or feel up to it, her face is red and
has pus filled blotches out on her cheeks and nose (another
reason to not want to go out into society), she has no energy
and is tired all the time, she is depressed, and she lives in
dread of having malignant melanoma reappear as either a new
occurrence or a secondary occurrence to the first occurrence. 

And nobody offered any help or hope.  Oh, they might offer
anti-depressants, bottles of antivert and scopalamine patches
(for the vertigo), metrogel and tetracycline (for her face),
valium to calm her and to try to take when the vertigo
threatens (impossible to do at that point however, as
everything is wanting to come up not go down), dilantin for
undiagnosed epilepsy but what the hey, it might help with the
vertigo, naprosyn for the headaches and other aches and pains,
and if she is much older, hormones such as PremPro, that cause
terrifying blood clots in addition to the other menopausal
symptoms.  

None of these measures cure anything.  Some of them just add
more issues.  Some of them destroy the liver, or the kidneys,
or cause problems with the stomach or the intestines.  Some of
them require constant monitoring, are habit forming, make you
sleep all the time, etc.  But that is okay, they are the
solutions offered, so just be grateful, go home, stop
complaining, and pop your pills.

Would you now make arrangements to have her amalgams removed
safely, if this was what she had to look forward to for the
rest of her life?

And regarding chelation or detoxing.  There are some safer
forms of detoxing that do not use strong chemicals.  How about
those?

[cosmik debris]

186. That's an unrealistic hypothetical

I have no reason to believe that you tried all those things with no results.

And an appeal to emotion is not going to make your case.

When philb started posting his bullshit here a couple of weeks ago I read his side of the story and I read the opposing side of the story. It didn't take long to realize that philb is a fraud. The anti-vaccination crowd is a fraud. The anti-amalgam crowd is a fraud.

If you had gotten accurate advice from accredited professionals, the subject of chelation would have never entered your mind.

[artist113]

204. Actually, just the opposite is true in my case.

Actually, just the opposite is true in my case.

Yes, and I would just possibly be dead or in a nursing home
right now instead of sitting here writing on internet
discussion boards.  I was aging so rapidly that I was in
effect dying of old age at 58 with no history of being a
fragile or sickly child, no smoking, or excessive drinking
ever, or drug use, or jobs in dangerous industries, or living
near a nuclear power plant, or devastating auto accidents in
my past.  I always enjoyed strenuous sports such as ice
skating and downhill skiing in my earlier years, always
worked, and loved to travel.  Things started going downhill
for my health in my early twenties right after my mouth was
filled with mercury amalgam fillings when I was 19.

My doctor at the time I had my teeth redone, an accredited
internist-cardiologist, and his nurse practitioner offered IV
chelation therapy.  I chose not to do it.  I chose less harsh
methods and alternated with different ones and took breaks
between to give myself a chance to regroup from any ill
effects.  The nurse practitioner was having her teeth redone
at the same time and we compared notes.

What I wrote isn't hypothetical by the way, it is what I have
experienced (no special ed but can't do jobs that involve
memory, typing, hot environments, being in the sun, or a
stressful, fast paced environment), all of it!  I also can't
sing anymore, play the piano or the guitar anymore (carpal
tunnel syndrome that never qualified for surgery based on
testing, but none-the-less destroyed my ability to work and do
many of the things that I always loved doing), sit comfortably
in most chairs (tail bone pain), sleep in most beds due to
pain in my back, or travel easily (bad knees, bad back, pain
in my foot, heat intolerance, exhaustion, etc.). The quality,
diversity, and richness of my life has been nearly destroyed
by all these issues.

In the past I have seen a cardiologist, ophthalmologists,
ratina specialist, neurologists, gynecologists, internists,
orthopedic specialist, oncologists, endocrinologist,
dermatologists, gastroenterologist, allergist, urologist, many
dentists, alternative medicine, ear nose and throat,
psychologists, chiropractors, physical therapists, and the
usual GP's, nurses, clinics, and three University medical
systems:  UCLA, UC San Francisco, and UC Irvine. 

I have had an MRI, a CT scan, many x-rays, numerous blood
tests, nerve induction tests, muscle tests, scope down my
throat because of persistent hoarseness which followed several
years of severe allergic bronchitis type coughing that would
go on for months at a time (haven't had it now for two or
three years since amalgam removal and detoxing).

Yes, you are right, emotional appeals will not work with you. 
Cold, hard, un-emotional science is all that matters.  I was a
Guinea Pig for that system long enough.  Give me some of that
good, old fashioned, anecdotal evidence.  I stopped being a
victim of a clueless system when I took control of my own
destiny.

There still has to be some reason why all of you wig out over
this.  For the life of me, I cannot imagine why anyone would
love and defend the use of mercury in anything.  Why would you
do that?  What possesses otherwise seemingly intelligent
people to do that?  There is more to this, then just comparing
both sides of the argument and coming up with "the
anti-mercury crowd are all frauds" rant.  That is a
pretty harsh stance for the casual observer to take.  

I don't consider myself a casual observer, so my stance comes
from a long succession of events that I personally
experienced.  Yours (I address the rather vocal group of you)
comes from some casual, uninvolved, supposedly no conflict of
interest, no monetary interest involved, no professional image
to uphold or defend, just happened upon the post, position.  

You thought you would read everything about this issue and
then take an aggressive, defiant, name calling, accusatory,
take no prisoners, character assassination, vilifying, shout
down the other side range war attitude.  I ask again, why? 
Now, just why would all of you be on the site all the time,
not even seeming to have jobs that you need to be doing,
reading all of this, screaming and yelling in text messages at
people you don't know and never met.  There is something else
going on here.

The very idea that anybody can defend the use of a derivative
of mercury in vaccinations that are given to tiny newborns is
beyond comprehension.  Babies, that weigh only five or six
pounds, are subjected to toxic injections, not pills, but
injections directly into their blood streams.  The scare
tactics that are involved in getting parents to agree to it
are reprehensible.  Then, to insist that it is just
coincidence that many of these children just happen to end up
with autism around the age of two after being bombarded for
those first two years with literally dozens of vaccinations. 
Coincidence, my Aunt Fannie.  We vaccinate babies with
dangerous compounds for some diseases that run their course in
a few days and have virtually no history of fatalities.  Why
do we do that and not question it?  Now we are vaccinating
young teenage girls for a sexually transmitted virus, HPV.

The original quacks were the dentists who wanted to use
mercury or quicksilver or quacksilver from Germany because it
was easy to use and cheap.  That is where the term came from.
Everybody knew it was toxic.  Everybody knew it shouldn't be
used to fill teeth.  They did it anyway and they have
continued to do it to this day.  Somebody came up with some
bogus safe level of exposure to shut up nay-sayers, they
prosecuted anybody who questioned the idea, took their
licenses, put them out of business (which is what happened to
Hal Huggins in Colorado) and scared everybody else into not
opening their mouths with threats of the same thing happening
to them. The amalgam mafia would be an apt description.

Amalgam is being phased out thankfully.  Enough people have
finally stood up and said no.  It will go quietly into the
night.  They will try to make it look like it is their idea. 
They will promote cosmetic driven procedures that involve
removing the ugly dark fillings, which seems to be a
completely acceptable reason to replace amalgams.  If you've
got plenty of money to feed your vanity, go for it, everybody
is fine with that.  But don't ever say you want them removed
because of any even remote chance of health concerns related
to having them.  That makes you dangerous. Crazy. You might
get convicted of something for that. Vanity good - health
concerns bad. What a screwed up value system we seem to
encourage.  Looking around me, am I surprised?  No.

Hypocrites!  Dentists will be holding their collective breaths
for years hoping they aren't taken to court for using it and
damaging people.  I have considered taking them to court
myself.  Somebody needs to do it.  Luckily for them, most of
us that have been so terribly damaged aren't up to it and we
don't have the resources.  The ADA will be shut down and
replaced with something run by rational people.  Hooray!  The
former California dental association (or whatever its name was
before) was shut down you know.  More states will follow.  It
is happening, finally. 

My current dentist is around 60, is counting the months until
he can retire (has to get his kids through college first) and
suffers from horrific migraine headaches.  My other dentist,
who redid all my crowns, has a huge concave shaped scar on his
arm from where a malignant melanoma was removed.  My previous
dentist dropped dead at 54 from a heart attack as I recall and
he had been high energy, had a thriving, highly organized,
large staff and office space practice, and was the picture of
good health and success.  His wife was left to run the
practice to support herself.  Another former dentist quit
dentistry and was doing plumbing from what I heard. They say
that dentists have the highest level of suicide of any group
of professionals.  Now why would being a dentist make you want
to commit suicide?  Maybe, being around all that mercury? 
That could do it I think. 

Good luck and God bless.  

[lizerdbits]

184. No I wouldn't have them removed

Unless there was real evidence that they were the source of a problem, which certainly hasn't been demonstrated here. If I had kids I would take them to real doctors to find the true source of the problem, assuming they had fillings before they were on their own (I didn't get one until I was mid-20's). If they were adults I wouldn't chip in for filling removal since that has not been demonstrated to cause problems but I would help as much as I financially could to find the real source of their suffering, physical or psychiatric.

[trotsky]

124. I am very sorry that you have been exploited by others.

I am also very sorry that you do not understand the issues, but instead are caught up in massive distrust and fear.

[artist113]

140. Understanding the issues

I understand the issues just fine. I have not been exploited except by the ADA who knowingly advocated for the placement of mercury into my body and the FDA who supported the idea. And of course, my very nice dentist, aren't they always such nice people, who placed all those fillings years ago. So yes I have massive distrust on a cosmic level. With very good reason.

I am not fearful either. I am educated about the reality of the situation we live with, aware of what is happening, and determined to protect myself. If I can educate someone else along the way, then at least what I have gone through will not be totally in vain.

How do you justify your position? What great service are you doing for humanity sitting at your computer shredding people with your words? Attempting to scare off people who say it like it is. I guess I actually hope someone in some concrete and glass tower is paying all of you handsomely for your efforts. Otherwise you are just mean spirited people who enjoy knowing others are suffering. Hum. Those aren't really very good choices are they?

It would seem your collective souls are in peril no matter how you slice it. I am sorry for you. And, I am sorry for anyone who listens to you and decides not to take this issue seriously as the true danger and menace it is. What a service you have done for those people! What a humanitarian effort you have accomplished. Please put it on your resumes the next time you are out searching for meaningful, society improving, humane employment.

I am sure there is some huge corporate conglomerate out there who would be glad to add any of you to their global empire. Maybe you could be in charge of their environmental impact department. Maybe you already are. Oops, that huge global conglomerate won't have an environmental impact department, because they don't give a rat's behind about the environmental impact of what they do. Their soul purpose is to make great gobs of money. People, wild life, the environment in general, the planet's health are all on their own. You can always work in the PR and marketing department I guess. Always room for one more soulless attack dog there.

[trotsky]

146. The service I am providing

is trying to keep people thinking CRITICALLY instead of fearfully, primitively, and emotionally. No corporation owns me; I only wish Merck would throw a few bucks my way. I speak for science and truth, instead of personal profit like all the hucksters who have sold you "treatments."

Proud to be a "soulless attack dog" because science SAVES LIVES. Fear takes them.

[artist113]

172. Not everything good can be proven by science.

Not everything that works can be proven by science. People try something, like herbs or chelation, it helps them, they tell someone else, it helps them. The word is spread, people get better. No science, no huge multi million dollar research grants. Just people doing what they have always done, listening to each other and trying what has worked for others. We just do it on the internet now instead of over the back fence. If people start getting sick from it or dying, the word gets out, then nobody uses it anymore. Bad news travels faster than good news. Everything is transparent, results are out there, the good and the bad.

There is no money in natural remedies for big drug companies. You can't patent natural remedies. Huge drug companies hate natural remedies and the people that offer them for sale. They hate the competition by substances that don't kill thousands of people every year, that don't cost a fortune, that are available without a prescription, that they can't patent.

When people get sick or die from some of the highly touted and marketed prescription drugs, or from unproven treatments, or incompetent doctors, it can take a long time for the news to get out. The cases are settled out of court or records are sealed, gag orders are in place. No transparency. But, the drugs are still marketed, given to doctors as samples, not removed from the shelf by the FDA. The doctors keep practicing for years and everybody on the inside knows they are killing people. Too much big money involved to remove a dangerous, truly toxic substance, or a dangerous doctor. Everybody has to stick together. It could be them next.

Nothing wrong with science. It is how it is manipulated and used for greed that is wrong. If scientists could be truly independent, not subsidized by huge companies like Merck who have a vested interest in the outcome of the research, science would fare much better. Fix the system, if you want to fix something. That is what is broken, not natural remedies, alternative therapies, and people who try to explain about the dangers of mercury and other heavy metals.

I think maybe you have been kicked pretty hard by somebody or something or you feel you were taken in by a "huckster" and you have a chip the size of Mt. McKinley on your shoulder. We are not the enemy. Buyer beware is still an important maxim. As with everything, there is good stuff out there and bad stuff out there. That is the beauty of the internet, you can search and read and get many different angles and insights and then hopefully make your own decision. But when someone just sets out to silence some of the input, it doesn't help anybody. Give people credit for having some brains and let them sort out all the information. You are just making a distraction and a lot of noise and chasing people away from a possible source of a variety of information they might use to make an informed decision. Add something positive to the discussion instead of the noise, if you really want to inform people and help them make good decisions.

[trotsky]

173. By definition....

if it REALLY WORKS, it can be proven by science. Fear, superstition, and hucksters lurk everywhere else.

What about the people who make money by selling you these "natural remedies"? If you're going to distrust someone simply because there's a profit motive at work, then you need to apply that distrust EQUALLY and not cherry-pick based on fear and ignorance.

I think maybe you have been kicked pretty hard by somebody or something or you feel you were taken in by a "huckster" and you have a chip the size of Mt. McKinley on your shoulder.

Unfortunately, you're completely wrong about that. I've never been taken advantage of, because I have educated myself and I don't let fear guide my decisions.

I'll refrain from casting aspersions as to why you think the way you do. I'm obviously not "enlightened" or "open-minded" enough to judge people.

[cosmik debris]

141. trotsky, you soulless attack dog, you!

Aren't you ashamed of your self for rejecting this superstition and pseudo science?

:rofl:

[varkam]

113. Pot? There's a kettle on the phone for you...

:rofl:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

68. The facts.... let me see, Hg is one of the most potent if not the most

potent neurotoxin known to man. I have read Toxic Metal Syndrome (required reading for docs joining the American Naturopathic Association if memory serves), I have read It's All In Your Head, and if there are people who don't understand the dangers posed by dental amalgams in this day and age I fear they never will. Hg will not be a problem for all, but for the ones it does, well I feel for them.

1: Environ Res. 2008 Feb;106(2):178-84. Epub 2007 Sep 21.Click here to read Links
Tissue uptake of mercury is changed during the course of a common viral infection in mice.
Frisk P, Molin Y, Ilbäck NG.

Research in Metal Biology, Rudbeck Laboratory, Uppsala University, S-751 85, Uppsala, Sweden.

Mercury (Hg) has been shown to have immunotoxic effects and to influence the severity of infection. However, the impact of infection on the normal Hg homeostasis in different target organs involved in the disease process has not been studied. In this study, Hg was measured through inductively coupled plasma-mass spectrometry (ICP-MS) in the intestine, serum, liver, and brain on days 3, 6, and 9 of coxsackievirus B3 (CVB3) infection in female Balb/c mice. The severity of the infection was assessed from clinical signs of disease and the number of virus particles in infected organs. CVB3 and gene expression of metallothionein 1 (MT1) was measured by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR). Gene expression of MT1 increased and peaked on day 3 in the brain (93%, p<0.01) and liver (19-fold, p<0.01) and on day 6 in the intestine (seven-fold, p<0.01).

This peak in MT1 in the liver and brain corresponded to the peak in virus numbers in these tissues. Hg in the intestine and serum tended to decrease on all days of infection. The maximum decrease, in comparison with non-infected mice, occurred in the intestine (78%, p<0.001) on day 9 and in serum (50%, p<0.05) on day 6. However, in the brain, Hg increased by 52% (p<0.05) on day 6. Hg went unchanged in the liver. An infection-induced increase of Hg in the brain but unchanged level in the liver may be due to the peak of virus replication and an associated infection-induced expression of MT1. Moreover, the decrease of Hg in serum and the intestine but a concomitant intestinal increase in MT1 on day 6 may reflect a flux and increased retention of Hg to infected organs such as the brain. The pathophysiological interpretation of these preliminary findings requires further research.

PMID: 17888900

[trotsky]

102. I'm sorry you don't understand.

EVERYTHING in this world is toxic. It depends on the dosage and method of exposure. Mercury has ALWAYS been part of our environment, and our bodies have the ability to excrete it. This alarmist raving bullshit is so totally wasted when people can't understand just a tiny bit of chemistry or physiology. "Oh my, we have evidence showing mercury is harmful. THEREFORE every bit of mercury everywhere is gonna kill us!! AIEEEE!!!1!1!!one!!!"

[HysteryDiagnosis]

119. And if you have a weak form of metallothionein??

READ AND UNDERSTAND

1: Sci Total Environ. 2007 Oct 15;385(1-3):37-47. Epub 2007 Aug 22.Click here to read Links
Glutathione-S-transferase polymorphism, metallothionein expression, and mercury levels among students in Austria.
Gundacker C, Komarnicki G, Jagiello P, Gencikova A, Dahmen N, Wittmann KJ, Gencik M.

Medical University of Vienna, Center for Public Health, Dept. of Ecotoxicology, Waehringer Strasse 10, A-1090 Vienna, Austria. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Detoxification is an essential process in all living organisms. Humans accumulate heavy metals primarily as a result of lifestyle and environmental contamination. However, not all humans experience the estimated individual exposure. This suggests the presence of genetic regulatory mechanisms. OBJECTIVE: In order to identify genetic factors underlying the inter-individual variance in detoxification capacity for the heavy metal mercury, 192 students were investigated.

We focused on the relationship between polymorphisms in glutathione-S-transferase (GST) genes and mercury concentrations in blood, urine, and hair. The correlation between blood mercury levels, GSTT1 and GSTM1 polymorphism, and gene expression of certain metallothionein subgroups (MT1, MT3) was evaluated in a further group of students (N=30). METHODS: Mercury levels in acid digested samples were measured by cold vapor AAS. Genotyping of the GSTT1 and GSTM1-gene deletion polymorphism was performed by means of PCR. Gene expression of several MT genes was analyzed in lymphocytes from fresh peripheral blood by semiquantitative RT-PCR.

RESULTS: The following was noted: a) hair mercury concentrations are significantly increased in persons with the double deleted genotype (GSTT1-/- and GSTM1-/-) as compared to persons with the intact genotype, and b) MT1X expression is higher in persons with the intact genotype (GSTT1+/+ and GSTM1+/+). CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that the epistatic effect of the GSTT1 and the GSTM1 deletion polymorphism is a risk factor for increased susceptibility to mercury exposure. The relationship between MT gene expression and GST gene polymorphisms needs further investigation. If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms it would have important implications on the overall metal detoxification capability of the human organism.

PMID: 17716707

[cosmik debris]

121. I understand that your citation is NOT conclusive.

Did you see the statement "...needs further investigation." and "If MT expression depends on GST polymorphisms..." (Pay special attention to the first word in that sentence--IF)

Any conclusion based on this study is premature at best.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

122. If Biff had a skiff we could all

go sailing... what I said was, www.hriptc.org treats people with a weak form of the protein metallothionein SUCCESSFULLY.

It took the Brits 50 years to put citrus on their sailing vessels after seeing the native Americans cure scurvy with pine needle tea. They get the duh award and so do others who are still waiting for "further investigation".


http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm

>>At Dr. Rimland's request, we carried out a small outcome study about 6 months ago which measured the impact of MT-Promotion for 46 patients. I presented the results at a D.A.N. "Think Tank" at which Dr. Amy Holmes' outcome results for MT-Promotion were presented by Stephanie Cave. There is no doubt that autism outcomes are far better at the Pfeiffer Center since MT-Promotion. Our group of 46 patients ranged from ages 3 to 18. A few of the families were unable to achieve compliance & a couple others gave up after a couple of days. More than 85% of the 41 families that achieved compliance reported impressive gains in cognition, speech, and socialization. More than 20% reported irritability and sleep problems, usually coincident with improved cognition or speech. Only 10% of the compliant families reported zero progress.

We found the greatest improvements were obtained with younger children, including a significant number whose autism was rapidly disappearing. However, our data showed definite (but slower) improvement in the autistic teenagers. A few examples: A mother from New Hampshire reported that her mute 17 year old daughter began speaking after 6 weeks of MT Promotion. A 13 year old girl from Virginia began talking after the first month. A 4 year old in Illinois who could only say a few words.... began speaking in complex sentences after 5 days of MT-Promotion. A socially isolated 7 yr old son of a doctor became very friendly & communicative during the first month. We now have many dozens of such outcomes.<<

[cosmik debris]

123. Just like philb

You use a survey of parents of sick children as a substitute for scientifically valid data.

It is pathetic, non-scientific, superstition.

[varkam]

109. Did they use ethyl or methyl mercury?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[philb]

2. Thousands of tests at med. labs- those with amalgams have 10 times more Hg exposure than those w/o

Hundreds of thousands of tests for mercury level in urine, saliva, feces are done each year by medical labs. The medical lab tests have found that the average leve of mercury in the saliva and feces of those with amalgam fillings is approximately 10 times that of the average person with no mercury amalgam fillings(which are 50% mercury).

The following labs have documented this, and you can find the documentation on the doctorsdata lab web site, one of largest in U.S. for such tests, by clicking on the following URL.

19. Doctors Data Inc.; Fecal Elements Test; P.O.Box 111, West Chicago, Illinois, 60186-0111; http://www.doctorsdata.com/repository.asp?id=43
& Biospectron Lab, LMI, Lennart Mansson International AB, [e-mail]; http://home.swipnet.se/misac/research11.html#biospectrons

other labs have found similar, and the same for the many medical studies in the medical literature
www.flcv.com/damspr1.html


The saliva and feces of children with amalgams have approximately 10 times the level of mercury as children without<140,141>, and much higher levels in saliva after chewing.
references: www.flcv.com/fetaln.html

[restlessnative77]

35. look debris head, doctors data are quaks too

here are the results,
It may not be
What you want to see
but the truth will be accepted as self evident

[philb]

69. Extremely high levels of mercury in gums, oral mucosa of people with amalgam fillings-cause effects

Having dissimilar metals in the teeth(e.g.-amalgam, or gold and mercury, or stainless steel and mercury) causes galvanic action, electrical currents, and much higher mercury vapor levels and levels in oral tissues. (1-11,30) The amount of mercury released into saliva has been found by large studies to be about 1.5 to 1.9 micrograms per liter for each additional amalgam filling (26). The amount of mercury released by a gold alloy bridge over amalgam over a 10 year period was measured to be approx. 101 milligrams(mg)(60% of total) or 30 micrograms(ug) per day(7), and other studies have found similar results( 4). Average mercury levels in gum tissue near amalgam fillings are about 200 ppm, and are the result of flow of mercury into the mucous membrane because of galvanic currents with the mucous membrane serving as cathode and amalgam metals as anode(1-4). Concentrations of mercury in oral mucosa for a population of patients with 6 or more amalgam fillings taken during oral surgery were 20 times the level of controls(14), and levels in root tips of 41 ppm(5). Amalgam also releases significant amounts of silver, tin, and copper which also have toxic effects, with organic tin compounds formed in the body being even more neurotoxic than inorganic mercury. Amalgam containing zinc produced higher galvanic currents(3b).

Mercury and other metals accumulate in the oral cavity in fibroblasts, macrophages, and multinuclear giant cells of connective tissue, in blood vessel walls, along nerve sheath fibres, in basement-membranes of mucosal epithelium, striated muscle fibres, along collagen bundles and elastic tissue, in acini of salivary glands, and in tooth roots and jaw bones(5,11). Such mercury including that in the commonly formed amalgam tattoos moves to other parts of the body over time in significant amounts and more rapidly than the other metals. Macrophages remove mercury by phagocytosis and the mercury moves to other parts of the body through the blood and along nerves(5). Most dentists seem to be not aware of the main source of amalgam tattoos, oral galvanism, where electric currents caused by mixed metals in the mouth take the metals into the gums and oral mucosa, accumulating at the base of teeth with large fillings or metal crowns over amalgam base(1-5). Such metals are documented to cause local and systemic lesions and health effects, which usually recover after removal of the amalgam tattoo by surgery(5fghi). The high levels of accumulated mercury also are dispersed to other parts of the body.

Mercury levels are often over 1000 ppm near a gold cap on an amalgam filling due to higher currents when gold is in contact with amalgam (8,9c,11,12,13). Similar levels as high as 5000 ppm have been found by German oral surgeons in jaw bone under large fillings or gold crowns(37). These levels are among the highest levels ever measured in tissues of living organisms, exceeding the highest levels found in chronically exposed chloralkali workers, those who died in Minamata, or animals that died from mercury poisoning(29). The FDA Action Level for mercury in fish or food is 1 ppm. Warnings are given at 0.5 ppm, and the EPA health criterion level is 0.3 ppm.
Some of the oral effects of mercury that have been documented include gingivitis, oral lesions, pain and discomfort, burning mouth, "metal mouth", chronic inflammatory response, leukoplakia, lichen planus, autoimmune response, oral cancer, trigeminal neuralgia, allergic reactions, etc.(4,5,9a,11,15,19,22,23,25,26,30-35)

Peer-reviewed references: www.flcv.com/galv.html
www.flcv.com/periodon.html

[cosmik debris]

70. philb = Capitan Ahab

Mercury = Moby Dick.

[philb]

74. Dental amalgam documented to be largest source of methyl mercury in most with amalgam,also toxic

The public is being widely warned of the dangers of methyl mercury from fish. But they haven't been warned that their amalgam fillings can be as large a source of methyl mercury as fish, higher in many. Since other forms of mercury are converted to methyl mercury in the mouth and intestines by oral bacteria, and in intestines by bacteria, yeast, other methyl donars.
Those with amalgam have on average 10 times as much mercury exposure than those without, and mercury vapor is like methyl mercury extremely toxic, but most people are not aware that methyl mercury measured in people in some studies can be from either fish or dental amalgam.

Studies and clinical tests have found amalgam to be the largest source of methyl mercury in most people (506,220,79,386,550).
References: www.flcv.com/cardio.html


Mercury levels in saliva and feces usually decline after amalgam replacement between 80 to 95% (10,11,18-20,FS 8). Studies document that amalgam is the number one source of both inorganic and organic mercury in most people who have amalgams. It has been documented that inorganic mercury is methylated to methyl mercury in the mouth and intestines by bacteria, yeast, and other methyl donors(21,22.23).
References: www.flcv.com/damspr12.html


Metal crowns have been usually placed over an amalgam base which gives even more galvanic currents and mercury exposure than amalgam fillings. This is warned against by the largest amalgam manufacturer and many Government health agencies, along with other common practices regarding amalgam commonly ignored by dentists in the U.S.
References: www.flcv.com/damspr12.html
www.flcv.com/amalg6.html
(over 3000 peer-reviewed references documenting harm from mercury)

[cosmik debris]

76. This is clearly obsessive compulsive behavior.

You are out of touch with reality.

You need help.

A person with obsessive-compulsive disorder have either obsessions, or compulsions, or both. The obsessions and/or compulsions are strong enough to cause significant distress in their employment, schoolwork, or personal and social relationships. This includes: anankastic neurosis, obsessional neurosis and obsessive-compulsive neurosis

The person has obsessions or compulsions, or both.

Obsessions. The patient must have all of:

Recurring, persisting thoughts, impulses or images inappropriately intrude into
awareness and cause marked distress or anxiety.

These ideas are not just excessive worries about ordinary problems.

The person tries to ignore or suppress these ideas or to neutralize them by thoughts
or behavior.

There is insight that these ideas are a product of the patient's own mind.


Compulsions. The person must have all of:

The person feels the need to repeat physical behaviors (checking the stove to be sure it is off, hand washing) or mental behaviors (counting things, silently repeating words).

These behaviors occur as a response to an obsession or in accordance with strictly applied rules.

The aim of these behaviors is to reduce or eliminate distress or to prevent something that is dreaded.

These behaviors are either not realistically related to the events they are supposed to
counteract or they are clearly excessive for that purpose.
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/obsessive_compulsive_disorder.htm

That is YOU they are describing! ( I can play Dr. Google too!)

[varkam]

111. I didn't know you were a psychologist!

:rofl:

[cosmik debris]

115. It is fun to play Doctor Google.!

You can play too!

[philb]

166. "Modern" high copper mercuryamalgams cause much higher exposure than the old "silver" fillings

This is one reason that those with several amalgams these days get exposures approx. 10 times higher on average than those without, as previously documented by the medical lab site summary data for reference levels and other peer-reviewed studies cited. www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

Studies have consistently found modern high copper non gamma two amalgams have greater release of mercury vapor than conventional silver amalgams (21-23,25).
Recent studies have concluded that because of the high mercury release levels of modern amalgams, mercury poisoning from amalgam fillings is widespread throughout the population"(17,22,18,6). & www.flcv.com/damspr3.html

Due to such widespread high exposures the average person with several amalgam fillings has approx. 10 times higher mercury exposure than those without amalgam(1b), and excretes approx. 30 micrograms into the sewer each day, making dental amalgam the largest source of mercury in sewers.

The high levels in sewers and sewer sludge result in amalgam being a significant source of mercury in water bodies and fish, and also a significant source of air emissions from out gassing sewer sludge and crematoria (1c).

References: www.flcv.com/amalno1.html
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

ps: regarding googling; we've already established that most of my references come from searching the National Health Institute National Library of Medicine Medline www.nlm.nih.gov
plus Government Agency summary policy statements and government studies from D.O.H. and EPA and ORNL, etc.
Anyone who wants can confirm this and find the study abstracts there. Go to Gov. web sites for theirs.

[Demeter]

3. Any Correlation Between Mother's Fillings and Autism?

Or the introduction of amalgam in dental practice and autism?

[philb]

4. Mom's fillings are major mercury source in fetus and Mom's breast milk signif. source in infants

Based on animal studies using rats, sheep, and monkeys as well as human studies, mercury from amalgam in the blood of pregnant women crosses the placenta and appears in amniotic fluid and fetal blood, liver, and pituitary gland within 2 days of placement <10,14,15, 34-36,43-47,60,/54>. Studies have found a significant correlation between number of amalgam fillings of the mother and the level of mercury in the fetus, infants, and young children<10,14,15,34-40>, and also with the level in mother's milk <10,38-42>. Breast milk has been found to increase the bioavailability of inorganic mercury, which was found to be excreted to milk from blood at a higher level than organic mercury(41,44,61). The main mechanism of transfer was found to be binding to albumin(45). For non-occupationally exposed populations and populations without high fish consumption, these studies found dental amalgams appear to be the main source of mercury in breast milk and the fetus, but significant levels of methyl mercury are also often found in breast milk <43,44,46,54,61>. U.S. ATSDR staff<62> indicate that under normal circumstances mercury in mother’s milk should be under 1.7 ug/L, and 3.5 ug/L appears to be an adequate screening level for health risk. They indicate that there is evidence that contaminated breast milk is a source of potential risk to infants. An Italian study indicates that a commonly used mercury tolerance level for human milk is 4 ppb(43).

Mercury is often stored in breast milk and the fetus at much higher levels than that in the mother <10,36,38-46,60,61/54>. Milk from mothers with 7 or more fillings was found to have levels of mercury approximately 10 times that of amalgam free mothers. The milk sampled ranged from 0.2 to 57 ug/L. In a population of German women, the concentration of mercury in early breast milk ranged from 0.2 to 20.3 ug/L. After 2 months laction the level had declined and was 0.1 to 11.7 ug/L<64>. A Japanese study found that the average mercury level in samples tested increased 60% between 1980 and 1990<47b>. The study found that prenatal Hg exposure is correlated with lower scores in neurodevelopmental screening, but more so in the linguistic pathway(47b). The level of mercury in umbilical cord blood, meconium, and placenta is usually higher than that in mother's blood<43- 47>.

Meconium(first stool) level appears to be the most reliable indicator of fetal mercury exposure and often has significant levels when there are low levels in mother’s blood and cord blood(46c). The level of maternal blood or hair mercury is significantly correlated with mercury level in meconium and in nursing infants , so maternal tests can be easily used as a screen for developmental dangers<43-47,127>. But fetal levels can be significant when there are low levels in maternal blood(46c).

peer-reviewed medical study references:
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html

[philb]

5. Mercury and toxic metals documented major factors in autism, and Mom's amalgams major part of this

Plus the fetal mercury exposure of highly neurotoxic substance to undeveloped neurological system and other stystems of the body have been documented to cause major damage to the developing systems, which have both neurological effects on future of infant but also cause problems in development of enzymatic and hormonal systems and their future function.
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html

Natioanl Academy of Sciences found that in the 1990s 50% of pregnancies in the U.S. resulted in birth defects or significant developmental conditions such as autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, mood or anxiety disorders, eczema, muscular distrophy, astham, other chronic respiratory conditions, etc.
Toxic prenatal and neonatal exposures have been documented to be the main cause of most of these developmental conditons.
Toxic metals like mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium, aluminum, nickel, antimony, etc. are documented to be the largest factor among the toxic exposures. Mercury, lead, and arsenic are the top 3 and 7 of the top 10 toxics found to be affecting large numbers of people are toxic metals according to EPA and U.S. DOH (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry)

www.flcv.com/tmlbn.html
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html


Mom's who have RH factor different from their fetus/infant also have been getting a RhoGam shot which has high mercury levels.
Infants whose mother's received RhoGam shots have been found to have a much higher incidence of autism than those who don't get RhoGam shots.
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html

[trotsky]

13. Absolutely none.

No credible evidence whatsoever. None of what philb posts has been verified or is relevant.

[philb]

18. My main references are major Gov't agency findings and medical lab findings, with URLs given

to the site where anyone can confirm what I've said.
There can be no doubt here, what I said represents the consensus of the U.S. Gov't agency in charge of this issue, the World Health Organization, other country Gov't Health agencies(most European countries have banned amalgam use or are in the process of banning or limiting its use, likewise Japan for reasons I've given), all medical labs, all credible researchers and doctors, etc.

You can't find one single credible source to the contrary. Put up or stop spamming.

[trotsky]

20. No, Bernie/BernieJr, you are simply once again just obfuscating and equivocating.

But I do have to laugh at YOU leveling a charge of "spamming." :rofl:

[philb]

50. You are only one spamming; you can't find a single credible source contrary to what I've posted

As usual, you have no substance, just silly stuff.
I can't ever seeing evidence of a rational argument or credible source that backs up what you say.
Can you find a credible source to contrary of what I posted? I know you can't, so I guess we'll see more sillyness.

[lizerdbits]

52. You are the silliness

We've been debunking you for months but you're too clueless.

[philb]

63. You can't debunk any of this and haven't- here's more doc. on high air emissions due to amalgam

Due to the high levels of mercury exposure to people with amalgam, they excrete huge amounts into the sewers each day, approx. 30 micrograms per person per day, resulting in high levels in sewers and sewer sludge- approx. 3 parts per million in sewer sludge.

Studies by Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Gov't regulatory agencies have found that soil bacteria methylate the mercury in sewer sludge in landfills or landspread areas to methyl mercury, and that vaporizing elemental mercury vapor(since mercury is gas at room temperature if given enough time) and outgassing methyl mercury produces high mercury emissions from such sites. see references:

(22) (a) Lindberg, S.G., et al.Oak Ridge National Laboratory, 2001. Methylated mercury species in municipal waste landfill gas sampled in Florida, USA. Atmospheric Environment 35(Aug):4011-15.; & Lindberg, S.G. et al, Airborne Emissions of mercury from municipal solid waste: measurements from 3 Florida landfills, JAWMA, 2002 ; & (b)Janet Raloff, Landfill gas found to have high levels of highly toxic dimethyl form of mercury. Science News July 7, 2001; Vol. 160, No.1; & Study Says Landfill Bacteria Worsen Mercury Pollution, Solid Waste Report, Vol. 32 No. 28 July 12, 2001 Page 217; &(c) U.S. EPA, Air Emissions of landfill gas pollutants at Fresh Kills Landfill, Staten Island, NJ, December 1995, NTIS Order number PB97-500508INC 04/20/2001 ;
(23) (a)Methyl Mercury Contamination and Emission to the Atmosphere from Soil Amended with Municipal Sewage Sludge, Anthony Carpi et al, U.S. Dept. of Energy Oak Ridge National Lab(ORNL), Journal Environ. Quality 26:1650-1655 (1997); & ORNL, Sunlight-mediated Emission of Elemental Mercury from Soil Amended with Sewerage Sludge, Env Sci & Tech, 31(7):2085-91; &Press Release: ORNL finds green plants fertilized by sewer sludge emit organic and inorganic mercury, www.ornl.gov/Press_Releases/archive/mr19960117 01.html; & (b) National Research Council, NAS, Biosolids Applied to Land: Advancing Standards and Practices , www.nap.edu.; & (c) Maine Toxics Action Center, Toxic sludge: threatening farm lands and public health, Oct 2001. www.toxicsaction.org/tacsludgereport10_30_01.pdf; & Genetic Analysis of Drinking Water www.toxicsaction.org/tacsludgereport10_30_01.pdf;
(24) High mercury levels in rain throughout U.S., www.flcv.com/rainhg.html

Likewise(snipped from what I've posted URL for),
Additionally cremation of those with amalgam fillings adds to air emissions and deposition onto land and lakes. A study in Switzerland found that in that small country, cremation released over 65 kilograms of mercury per year as emissions, often exceeding site air mercury standards(9), while another Swiss study found mercury levels during cremation of a person with amalgam fillings as high as 200 micrograms per cubic meter(considerably higher than U.S. mercury standards). The amount of mercury in the mouth of a person with fillings was on average 2.5 grams, enough to contaminate 5 ten acre lakes to the extent there would be dangerous levels in fish(2,20). A Japanese study estimated mercury emissions from a small crematorium there as 26 grams per day(10). A study in Sweden found significant occupational and environmental exposures at crematoria, and since the requirement to install selenium filters mercury emission levels in crematoria have been reduced 85%(11). For the 70% of people in Britain who die and end up with their bodies being cremated, the mercury escapes into the atmosphere and contaminates waterways, soil, wildlife and food. Crematoria now contribute 16% of all the mercury released by industry and power plants in Britain(32), with levels projected to soon exceed emissions by power/industrial plants(32b). The 440,000 people cremated in Britain every year are estimated to discharge 1300kg of mercury(12) A study of assessing hair mercury in a group of staff at some of the 238 British crematoriums found that the groups hair mercury were significantly greater than that of controls(12). Government guidance calls on them to introduce new flue cleaning measures to help achieve a statutory target of a 50 per cent reduction by 2012.
references:
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

[cosmik debris]

64. Why are you so obsessed with this?

You do realize, I hope, that you are beginning to look even more loony than your first impression.

Obsessive behavior is not normal. You need to reconsider your behavior. You need to have an outsider counsel you about overdoing this type of thing. Honestly, you appear to be going off the deep end. Get a grip. Please!

[philb]

77. B.W. was totally disabled by mercury from dental amalgam, likewise most of our coordinators

B.W. has been a mercury researcher for over 25 years, much of it at work on clean air/emissions/environmental externality issues; was somewhat famous, pretty widely quoted, served on federal scientific advisory committees before becoming disabled 12 years ago and turning his focus to mercury from amalgam when tests showed he was extremely mercury toxic and the main source was dental amalgam.

He was told he appeared to have early stage MS and told going blind by 2 opthamologists from Fuch's Disease. However being a researcher he did some searches of National Library of Medicine Medline and Science Citation Index, etc. and found that mercury is a significant factor in most chronic health conditions, inclduing the ones he had.
He was diagnosed with chronic fatigue, balance problems, muscle wasting, peripheral neuropathy, parasthesis(numbness in the extremities), difficulty walking, Fuch's Disease, memory problems, etc. He had to give up playing sports and coaching (his soccer travel team won the North Florida championship and his teams had several undefeated league seasons). He had difficulty walking and almost had to give up driving, limited driving, and lots of other things.
But after determining that amalgam commonly causes all of his problems he had his amalgams replaced and did some detox and all conditions significantly improved over time, now completely recovered and playing sports again, competitive again with much younger players, he won some intramural trophies in several sports in college, individual in tennis and table tennis, and some team sports.
played on work softball team recently at age much more than others in the league, and batted close to .500 (once played semipro)

After amalgam replacement, not only did his other conditions improve but rather than going blind his eyes improved greatly, to the extent he no longer wears glasses for the first time in 30 years. Not only the Fuch's but other conditions that had caused need for glasses improved.

Most of our patient support organization's volunteer coordinators in the other states and some other countries who work with people with chronic mercury related health conditions likewise are people who were disabled by mercury and recovered after amalgam replacement- many of them had MS, but also many CFS, Chron's, FM, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.

B.W. is now reserch director for our organization, and we keep up a very large web site of documentation related to exposure levels from amalgam, mechanisms by which mercury is documented to cause over 30 chronic health conditions (www.flcv.com/indexa.html
and compilation of documentation on thousands we have experience with who've recovered from all of these chronic conditions after amalgam replacement along with thousands documented by peer-reviewed studies who've recovered from disability or chronic conditions after amalgam replacement. www.flcv.com/hgremove.html
www.flcv.com/hgrecovp.html
(our coordinators and Newsletters have more such cases, some of them have websites)

I also had adverse effects from vaccines and other toxics (ADD,anxiety)though I never had many amalgams and had the ones I had replaced early, and have been similarly treated by detox. and no longer ADD. B.W. and I share this computer and he helps with posts on topics such as this thread. He's paying for my college and grad school so I help with chores and computer work and info searches since I've had more computer courses than he.
B.W. is one of the most quoted researchers on mercury issues by researchers, dentists, doctors, etc., has had his papers translated by university researchers into several languages, posted on university web sites, used in some med school courses, writes for medical newsletters, coauthored book with MD on mercury effects and detox, etc.

[cosmik debris]

78. That doesn't explain you obsessive compulsive behavior

Why have you abandoned reality to crusade against mercury with your "Dr. Google/cut and paste" arguments repeated ad infinitum?

Don't you realize that you are clearly showing symptoms of mental illness?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[philb]

82. The evidence is clear; no credible experts disagree, no evidence to contrary; so

what does that say about you who keep posting without presenting doc. to back up your bogus claims.

The presented documentation is from the U.S. Gov't Health Agencies dealing with this issue
EPA, Dept of Health(ATSDR)(4), Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Association of Municipal Sewer Associations, World Health Oganization,
and thousands of tests by medical labs, with summary results quoted posted on the medical lab web site.

(4) Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, U.S. Public Health Service, Toxicological Profile for Mercury , 1999; & Jan 2003 Media Advisory, New MRLs for toxic substances, MRL:elemental mercury vapor/inhalation/chronic & MRL: methyl mercury/ oral/acute; & www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mrls.html (posted in original post)

Where is your comparable evidence to the contrary?
Or even one credible reference or credible expert who disagrees?

[lizerdbits]

84. We have gone over and over this with you

YOU NEED HELP! You are just making yourself look more and more disturbed. Please seek counseling.

[philb]

87. You have it backwards; I post facts supported by credible sources;you continually post with no basis

or evidence supporting your claims. Why do you continue to do this, when its clear to everyone that what I posted is supported
by all of the U.S. and Canadian Health agencies and World Health Organization and thousands of medical tests summarized on the medical lab web site. Since what I posted is clearly factual, with not one credible reference or credible expert opinion posted by you to the contrary, why do you continue to post unsupported spam?

I've explained why we post, but how do you explain your continual posts that have no credible content?
Seems either compulsive or perhaps someone with special interest reason rather than desire to educate.

[lizerdbits]

88. You're accusing us of your own behavior

You spam and say we are, you have a compulsion to post the same crap over and over and now you call us compulsive. You have a special interest due to who you work for and now you accuse us of having a special interest. Pretty sad Bernie.

[cosmik debris]

89. Nobody believes you.

When You behave too much like a nutter, people believe your information is nutty.

If you want to be believed, be reasonable. Stop acting like a child throwing a tantrum.

[Warpy]

30. Nope

But the antivax hysterics are still convinced mercury makes kids autistic.

Autism levels would be dropping now since more and more people are either forced to forgo dental care for lack of insurance or, if they're insured, opting for composite fillings that aren't as unsightly as the old amalgam fillings.

Plus, the incidence of dental caries in women of childbearing age has plummeted since fluoride was introduced into water supplies in the past several decades.

The fluoride isn't to blame because autism rates are the same for people drinking fluoridated city water and unfluoridated well water.

So we're back to Square 1. Autism is a congenital disease, meaning it is present at birth. It's turning out to be a more complex disease than simple central nervous system dysfunction. Unfortunately, it's unnoticed until the child is old enough to be receiving vaccinations, so the antivax crowd will still be howling their paranoia to freaked out and guilty parents, blaming them for their child's illness by blaming it on trying to protect them from other, more deadly illnesses.

[restlessnative77]

38. genes, genes, genes

yes that's convenient, and how do you explain this huge increase in children who ride the short bus to school, ??Something has damaged them, and while you dispute the links between toxcicity and neurological disease, you have no suggetions as to what does cause it, except, oh yes, genes, ofcoarse, and while you spit your venom, and call people quacks, those "quacks" are the only ones willing to do any real research, hmmmm, I wonder why that is,
Do you have mercury amalgams?

[restlessnative77]

37. it comes out in breast milk

there was a husband/wife dentist team who had a child with autism and actually tried to file lawsuit,, I am still not sure how you get a bottle of shit with a skull and crossbones on it and believe it is safe,but they were taught that once it is implanted it is stable, which is ridiculous, but they believe their professor and we believe our doctors, until we have reason to question, this is fully the fault of the FDA and ADA, and at this point in time ,he fault of any dentist who STILL uses amalgam, there is no excuse,
Some scientists believe that the digestive process can protect you from alot, so the mercury and animal DNA that is directly injected is a big problem because it bypasses that function,
Everyone is different, thus the convenient gene theory!lol
If you breast feed , you will feed your mercury load to your baby, to what extent? I guess depends on your excretion rate? and how long you breastfeed, I would like to say that I also think many of the flavor enhancers our fantastic FDA approves are screwing our brains up too

[jimshoes]

6. I've always wondered about that

I remember as a youngster watching the dentist mix up the paste that he would use for the fillings. At the time no one had a clue as to its toxicity I guess. I wonder what percentage of Americans have mercury glop all through their teeth.

[philb]

10. The majority, and mercury has been found to be major factor in most chronic health problems

www.flcv.com/amalg6.html
www.flcv.com/indexa.html

Mercury is extremely cytotoxic(kills cells it comes in contact with)
neurotoxic(kills or damages brain and nerve cells)
immunotoxic(damages the immune system and commonly causes autoimmune conditions like MS, Lupus, eczema, thyroiditis, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.)
endocrine(hormonal) disrupter
affects fertility and IQ of children exposed

mercury vapor from amalgam readily crosses the blood brain barrier and cell membranes, and stays in the blood on average less than 10 seconds before crossing into cells in a major body organ like brain, heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, where it kills or damages many cells, causing many chronic conditions. (Magos,Clarkson et al, 1989)

Mercury vapor has been documented to cause harm at lower levels of exposure than other forms of mercury like methyl mercury(fish) and ethyl mercury(vaccines), but all of these mercury forms are extremely toxic and cause major harm to cells/organs (Gov't health limits for mercury vapor are thus lower than for other mercury forms- see previous MRL cites)
www.flcv.com/damspr13.html

1 microgram of mercury contains billions of atoms of atoms, and cells cannot defend themselves from this extremely toxic substance, so billions of cells are killed or significantly damaged by 1 microgram of exposure.

Those with several amalgams get approx. 30 micrograms per day exposure since EPA and the Municipal Sewer Agencies have documented that the average person with amalgams excretes into the sewer each day approx. 30 micrograms of mercury. EPA and the Municipal Sewer Asscociation have found that dental amalgam is by far the largest source of mercury in sewers throughout the U.S., and that all sewers thus have high/dangerous levels of mercury. (on average 3 parts per million mercury in sewer sludge- compare to health standards) Also they have found that the dental amalgam is thus a major source of mercury in water bodies and fish, with over 33% of all U.S. water bodies having levels of mercury so high that fish consumption warnings have been issued.
Likewise dental amalgam has been found to be a major source of air mercury emissions, from outgassing from sewer sludge (Oak Ridge National Laboratory) and from crematoria (which are finally starting to be regulated and having trouble being permitted).
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

[MikeDuffy]

7. I don't understand in 2) "Since mercury is a gas at room temperature..."

At standard pressures the boiling point of mercury is 356.58 degrees celsius, according to Wikipedia. Could you clarify this point for me? Perhaps there is some sublimation at room temperature/normal body temperature?

[TZ]

9. Don't bother

This whole thread is pesudoscience, bullshit and fear mongering. The percentage of dentists that believe this tripe is very small.
Philb makes his living "curing" people with chronic diseasses (after convinincing them they are sick in the first place probably) by yanking out their teeth or by administering illegal and unethical tests on the children of naive parents.
This is modern day snake oil.All his sources are bullshit too. No legit science is thi thread. Just a con artist
This is philb:

[philb]

14. Your spamming again; but my sources are mainly medical labs and Gov't agency supported

There is consensus on these issues. No credible researcher, doctor, or Gov't agency person disagrees with what I posted.
Show indication there is one such expert or that any reference is is not legitimate and valid.
You can't. Why do you keep spamming and posting silly stuff with no credible support for your claims??

Does anyone here believe they can find any credible evidence that anything I posted here is inaccurate, if so what?

[lizerdbits]

15. YOU are spamming

I have amalgam fillings and I'm fine. So do my parents who are in good health in their 60's. So does my sister who has two perfectly normal children that she breast fed. I'm sure my grandmothers and great aunt in their 80's all have them too.

[philb]

17. Only one spamming is you, as usual. I'm quoting medical labs & Gov't agencies and giving URLs

Since you have no evidence to the contrary and all credible sources and experts support what I posted,
you resort to silly stuff and spam as usual

Specifically what do you disagree with in my original post. I'm aware that it represents consensus of medical labs, scientists, doctors, Gov't agencies, etc. Note the major publication on this issue of the U.S. Dept. of Health and World Health Organization are among the sources that I cited in my original post as supporting what I said. I simply quoted them.
There is no credible source to the contrary. Quote us one if you think there is. Rather than this silly spam again.

I don't think you are accomplishing anything with your silly stuff except making yourself look bad.
Anyone looking at the thread can easily see that my sources are credible and well documented. I even give URLs to Gov't web sites and medical labs that support what I say. You can't provide anything to the contrary.
Put up or stop spamming.

[lizerdbits]

27. You are the one who looks like an idiot as many of us have noted

You post links to natural cures sites, parent surveys, and message board posts that you claim are equivalent peer reviewed scientific journals. The real peer reviewed studies you cite draw different conclusions that you claim, indicating to me that you are unable to comprehend them. We have debunked your bullshit over and over but your beliefs are religion- facts won't change them.

If I was spamming I'd be posting bullshit, not calling you on yours. Get some mental help and an understanding of the scientific method.

[philb]

56. But why would anyone care about the opinion of someone with no credible experience in these issues

How many autistic kids have you tested or looked at the test results for?

Its thousands for us regarding seeing the test results and interacting with the families, doctors treating them.

How many of these kids have you cured? We've been involved in interacting with many hundreds cured or signif. improved and back in school, etc. And its clear that we've read a lot more of the research than you, I can post links of analyses of thousands of articles we've read over the years.

[lizerdbits]

58. We don't need to see your links again

to message boards, natural cure sites, and journal articles that don't actually support what you're saying. Yawn.

[TZ]

75. You think I LOOK BAD? Oh thats priceless.

You ought to ask Trotsky, Warpy, Lizerdbits,Orrex, Cosmik Debris, and many others about that. That might be the most freakin hilariously stupid thing you've said all the time.
As for curing kids...You can't cure people who aren't sick, you fraud. Fish oil salesman. Look that up someday.
You are the spammer by the way. BTW have you ever heard about "projection"? Its a psychological term that you fit to a tee Mr. Coyote.
Don't light a match anyone. This stink might be explosive....
:rofl:

[philb]

81. You guys only spam and act silly; here's more real medical study doc. on cardio conditions/Hg

The number of amalgam surfaces has a statistically significant correlation to blood plasma mercury level (17,22,23,49,79,89,133, 211) . As is known from autopsy studies for those with chronic mercury exposure such as amalgam fillings, in addition to accumulating in the brain, CNS, and hormone glands, mercury also bioaccumulates in the heart(59,85,205,348) and levels are directly proportional to the number of fillings. Significant levels are able to cross the blood brain barrier, placenta, and also cellular membranes into major organs such as the heart since the oxidation rate of Hg0 though relatively fast is slower than the time required by pumped blood to reach these organs(290,370). Thus the level in the brain and heart is higher after exposure to Hg vapor than for other forms(360,370).

It is unknown to what extent cardiovascular effects of mercury are due to direct cardiac toxicity or to indirect toxicity caused by effects on the neural control of cardiac function (276). The researchers believe that mercury promotes heart disease in several ways: mercury promotes free radical generation; it inactivates the body's natural antioxidant glutathione; and it binds with selenium thus making it unavailable as an antioxidant and component of glutathione peroxidase; it also affects All these mechanisms would lead to an increased level of lipid peroxidation and subsequent heart disease. The researchers also point out that earlier studies have discovered a clear correlation between the number of amalgam tooth fillings and the risk of heart attack.

Mercury binds to hemoglobin oxygen binding sites in the red blood cells thus reducing oxygen carrying capacity(232,35) and adversely affects the vascular response to norepinephrine and potassium. Mercury’s effect on pituitary gland vasopressin is a factor in high blood pressure(35,201). Mercury also increases cytosolic free calcium levels in lymphocytes in a concentration-dependant manner causing influx from the extracellular medium(270c), and blocks entry of calcium ions into the cytoplasm (16,17,21,33,35,333), and at 100 ppb can destroy the membrane of red blood cells(35,22,17,270c) and damage blood vessels- reducing blood supply to the tissues (34,202,306). Amalgam fillings have been found to be related to higher blood pressure, hemoglobin irregularities, tachycardia, chest pains, etc. (201,202,205,212,222,306,310,35,59). Mercury also accumulates in the heart and damages myocardial and heart valves (Turpayev,in (35) & 59,201,205,306,351,370).
Mercury has been found to be a cause of atherosclerosis, hypertension, and tachycardia in children and adults(539,59,201, 205,306,308,538,539,35) and heart attacks in adults(59,201,310).

(details on the mechanisms in review paper referenced below, all peer-reviewed studies)

There are extensive documented cases (many thousands) where removal of amalgam fillings led to cure or significant improvement of serious health problems such as tachycardia and heart problems (205,35,59,94,115,212,222,232,233,271,306,310) ,blood and circulatory conditions (212,222,232,233,271,523,35,95).

Details on studies documenting the mechanisms of such causality in: www.flcv.com/cardio.html

[varkam]

114. I like puppies.

They are cute.

[cosmik debris]

118. I have posted 3000 links

proving that puppies are evul! They are all peer-reviewed journals and government agency reports.

You have failed to disprove any of those reports. Here is my evidence:

[Warpy]

99. Funny, I don't have any amalgam fillings any more

and my lupus has gotten WORSE, not better.

Therefore, mercury in dental amalgam is protective against many of the physical symptoms of lupus.

The logic is indisputable. What is true in my case has simply got to be true in all cases. Mercury in fillings is GOOD for you.

:evilgrin:

[varkam]

110. I rub mercury all over my body every morning.

It helps me stay robust and healthy!

[TZ]

73. EVERYTHING YOU POST IS INACCURATE!! I worked at NIH, remember dolt?

Your degree is in Internet Idiocy. And nazi experimentation FDA unapproved testing on children. You don't even understand basic chemistry. But your answer to every scientific question is LA LALALAALALALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
I would LOVE to see you explain yourself to an FDA panel (something my coworkers have to do on a regular basis because we do LEGITIMATE RESEARCH). That would be awesomely funny.
For the last time, NONE OF YOUR STATEMENTS is supported by the FDA, NIH, NIAID, CDC, WHO,AMA, ADA ect.

One last word for you:QUACK!!!
If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck.......

[restlessnative77]

32. pseudo

actually, you should be happy to know that the number of dentists who use use amalgam is diminishing every day, why??? because they cannot show any science that proves, or even suggests that this kind of dentistry is safe, and why do you think that is, because mercury is very bad, M'Kay kids, so just say no to mercury amalgams, so you're wrong, your mad dentists are becoming extinct, they just won't admit the truth because they don't want a class action lawsuit, but don't worry about them because the FDA has their back, not yours, unless ofcoarse your one of them,,lol

[lizerdbits]

43. philb registered under a new name?

With the prose of a teenager.

[cosmik debris]

44. And a sixth grade sense of humor.

He won't be around long enough to matter.

[lizerdbits]

45. Yeah, I almost alerted

but the kid is too entertaining, it's probably past 'her' bedtime anyway.

[cosmik debris]

47. when "she" grows up and discovers the political forums

someone will make mincemeat out of her. And that will be the end.

[philb]

66. A new survey of dentists in U.S finds 50% no longer use amalgam due to the obvious health impacts on

both patients and dental staff.

Not only has mercury been documented to be a signif, factor in many chronic health conditions, but also dental staff get high occupational exposures and have been documented to have lots of health effects- neurological, immune, reproductive

Dental staff who deal with mercury (dentists, nurse, hygenist) get exposures from their work comparable to the amount one gets who has several amalagm fillings(which I've shown is high)

Hygenist get high exposures from polishing the teeth since it causes extremely high outgassing from the amalgam fillings of mercury vapor. As likewise does chewing food or hot beverages or EMP from appliances (www.flcv.com/galv.html)

Lots of peer-reviewed studies with lots of test have documented the increased adverse health effects of dental staff due to their occupational exposure- www.flcv.com/dental.html

part of the reason 50% in U.S. no longer will place amalgam fillings, most dentists in modern countries less controlled by special interest lobbies don't, Japan dental schools don't even teach how to place amalgam anymore, many European coutries have banned use of amalgam or are in process of doing so; others limit its use and require warnings;
several states in the U.S now require dentists to warn their patients that mercury is toxic and causes adverse health effects

[philb]

11. Elemental mercury is a liquid at room temperature but the vapor pressure is such that its continuous

continuously vaporizing at room temperature, unless contained in a sealed glass container (it will go through plastic).
That is why when a thermometer is broken in a school or public building, the building is immediately evacuated.

There have been lots of studies documenting the continuous vaporizing of mercury from dental amalgam, which I've referenced before.
So much vaporizes so fast that the level of mercury in the oral air of those with amalgams is above the Gov't health guideline for mercury in occupational spaces. This is documented in medical studies that I've previously cited, but also has made the headlines of newspapers in places like Chicago- where an EPA field rep investigating high mercury levels in homes a couple of years ago put his Jerome mercury probe in his mouth and demonstrated that the level of mercury in his mouth was more than that of the homes, so the homes must be safe. However, all he demonstrated was his ignorence of how toxic mercury is, since that level of exposure has been well documented to cause harm. The story made headlines in many papers throughout the country. Our Illinois coordinator supplied me with some of them.

But vaporizing isn't the only source of mercury from amalgams in people. As any engineer, plumber, electrician,etc. knows- when you have mixed metals in an electrolyte you get galvanic currents generated. Amalgam is mixed metals and likewise metal crowns. So they generate electric currents in the teeth that take mercury and other metals into the body, depositing high levels in the gums and oral mucosa, these are called amalgam tattoos and most with metal crowns over amalgam or big amalgam fillings can see the dark grey/blue deposits in the gums at the base of the teeth. These galvanic currents can be measured by going to Radio Shack and getting an ampmeter/voltmerer that measures in microamps. Put probes to tooth and mouth palate and see the high potential, currents.
The levels of mercury in these oral areas of those with amalgams is extremely high, and the blood and nerves transmit it on to the brain and other parts of the body.
www.flcv.com/galv.html

Also those with mercury amalgam fillings in the mouth or metal crowns, have electric currents generated in their teeth from EMF of appliances and computers, which takes the mercury/metals into the body. This has been also well documented. This is probably one of the reasons for the higher levels of cancer and chronic conditions documented in those exposed to EMF, for those with metals in the mouth they are documented to get higher levels deposited in the oral areas, and the metals are documented to cause the conditions in question. www.flcv.com/galv.html

[RC]

8. This whole thread is bovine manure and the following quote is pure bull shit.

"Dental amalgam is an unstable mixture of 50% liquid mercury with other toxic metals including copper, silver, tin. Since mercury is a gas at room temperature it vaporizes continuously from the amalgam mixture resulting in high levels of mercury in the oral air and saliva, as can be easily measured. Since amalgam is also a mixture of metals in an electrolyte(saliva) this results in galvanic currents that pump mercury and other toxic metals into the gums and oral mucosa, from which it is carried throughout the body by the blood and nerves. (24,27)"

Dental amalgam is quite stable. I have some in my mouth now from when I was a teenager and I am now well over 60.

[philb]

16. You don't know what you are talking about; look at the medical lab URL and references posted

Doctors Data Inc.; Fecal Elements Test; P.O.Box 111, West Chicago, Illinois, 60186-0111; http://www.doctorsdata.com/repository.asp?id=43

(I know you have good intentions but you've been badly misinformed by deliberate disinfomation put out by special interest groups like the ADA, etc. but they have been discredited on this issue and others in court and Gov't hearings. As seen in my references- Gov't agency findings are among my main refernces on this)

This shows that those with amalgams tested have 10 times more mercury exposure than those without amalgams, which obviously means the amalgam is unstable and goes into the body. This is also confirmed by hundreds of thousand of tests by lots of medical labs
and hundreds of peer-reviewed studies.
There is scientific consensus on the fact and no credible experts or researchers disagree with this.

If you measure the amount of mercury in your mouth now, you will find that the level is much less(at least 50% less than before). This has been done in lots of people, in lots of tests, and lots of medical studies have done this. One is study at Texas A&M that is the first group of references that I gave URL for. But all of the many thousands of studies in the med. literature agree on this. There are none to the contrary. Amalgam is extremely unstable, with mercury vapor continuously vaporizing off, resulting in high levels of mercury in saliva and feces of all of the millions who've been tested at medical labs,
and as a test of your saliva or feces at the DoctorsData Lab referenced above would show. Do the test, then you'll likely decide to get them replaced.


Here's a study funded by the Gov't agency regulating dentistry of a large populaton of miliatary people, that confirms this also(from my orig.posted refs.)
5. Kingman A, Albertini T, Brown LJ, Mercury concentrations in urine and whole blood associated with amalgam exposure in a US military population., J Dent Res 1998 Mar;77(3):461-71
it found that dental amalgam was largest source of mercury in the population (population of over 1000 Air Force personnel; found each 10 amalgam surfaces increased mercury in urine by approx. 1 microgram per liter)
while this study only measured mercury in urine, the majority of the daily mercury exposure is excreted through feces.

As previously documented, EPA and the Municipal Sewer Agencies have confirmed this by measuring the amount of mercury in the sewers of homes of people with amalgam fillings. They found the average was over 30 micrograms per day per person with amalgam fillings.
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html
which is in the same range as the medical labs find in feces and urine tests in the millions of such test they've done.

There is no controversy here, the medical labs and experts and Gov't agencies all agree.

The World Health Organization and U.S. Dept. of Health (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry) are among the original sources that I cited for this. Their main document on mercury exposure states that dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury exposure in people who have amalgam fillings, the thousands of medical lab tests also confirm this.
www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

[restlessnative77]

39. decades in the making, you're 60, congrats

I guess you believe that human beings are like wax sculptures, I'll tell you what, you go ahead and believe the ADA and I am going to believe the toxicologists, ( who are real researchers) Just because you are 60 doesn't mean you haven't been damaged or compromozed in some way, also remember mercury has cumulative affects, so mabey this is decades in the making, we have reached the saturation point, 60 with amalgams and proud of it! well good luck

[cosmik debris]

19. Just like all other con men, frauds and quacks, you use a little

truth to sell a big bunch of lies. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a faker and a con man. You have no integrity. You prey on the emotional vulnerability of the parents of sick children. You are an anathema to the medical profession.

Please stop hurting children, please!

[trotsky]

23. This is better.

[GoneOffShore]

29. Hooray - finally an answer to philb.

This should be posted every time he spams the board.
:rofl:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cosmik debris]

41. We've been refuting his posts for weeks

You just showed up and you think you've seen it all. As I expected, you are too lazy to read the whole story, you just want to carp and criticize. I suspect you won't be here long.

[philb]

83. You have never refuted any post; you claim but don't provide credible evidence; post one

credible study or expert opinion that casts doubt on the fact that amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most who have amalgam fillings,and Mom's amalgams are a major source of mercury in fetus and infants, the original post here.

You can't. And I've supplied references supporting it from EPA, U.S. Dept. of Health, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Health Canada,
World Health Organization, and thousands of tests by medical labs- with summary results posted on their web site.
What do you have to cast doubt on any of these sources?

[cosmik debris]

86. You are destroying your own credibility

By acting like a child throwing a tantrum. Grow up, get over it, and stop posting the same crap over and over.

[philb]

24. Another spammer shows up; you can't find a single credible source contrary to what I posted

My main sources are the primary U.S. Gov't agency and World Health agency publications on this issue. With cites and URLs provided.
Along with medical lab rederences and URLs to their web sites where anyone can confirm what I said.

You can't find a single credible source to the contrary so you post BS as usual.
If you can find a single credible source that is contrary to my post facts, please provide it and educate us.

Or what fact that I've quoted do you challenge and why?

[cosmik debris]

26. You are sick, get help.

stop preying on the vulnerable. You only want to feed your ego at the expense of sick children. That's pathetic for you and the children.

Please stop for the sake of the children.

[philb]

57. EPA and Municipal Sewer Agency documentation complelety support the medical lab findings

so its clear you don't have a case. Why do you go on when the facts are clear and there is clear consensus among scientists, Gov't agencies, etc. on this issue. I posted link to these Gov't agency and sewer district studies but you seem to never look at the evidence before posting.

They show that the average person with amalgam excretes at least 30 micrograms per day into sewers, resulting in dental amalgam being by far the largest source of mercury in sewers all over the U.S. And similarly higher than for those without amalgam like the hundreds of thousands of medical lab tests document; those with amalgams approx. 10 times more exposure than those without.
Also the municipal sewer agencies measurements find that the mercury from dental amalgam due to the extremely high exposures that those with amalgam get and the extremely high excretions into sewers results in high levels of mercury into rivers, lakes, bays, and fish.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Mercury Sourcebook: a Guide to Help Your Community Identify and
Reduce Releases of Elemental Mercury. Section III, Mercury Use: Dentists, p249-292.
www.epa.gov/grtlakes/bnsdocs/hgsbook/index.html; & Wisconsin Mercury Sourcebook: Dentists www.glrppr.org/contacts/fullrecord.cfm?sectordocid=1153;
(b) Association of Metropolitan Sewerage Agencies(AMSA), Evaluation of Domestic Sources of Mercury , Aug 2000, http://www.in.gov/idem/rules/progress/water/wpcb03130/mercurylibrary/26quesandhgrefs.pdf
; & (c) Doctors Data Inc.; Fecal Elements Test; P.O.Box 111, West Chicago, Illinois, 60186-0111; http://www.doctorsdata.com/repository.asp?id=43
(14) Association of Metropolitan Sewerage Agencies(AMSA)/U.S. EPA, Mercury Source Control Program Evaluation, Larry Walker Associates, Final Report, March 2002, www.in.gov/idem/rules/progress/water/wpcb03130/mercurylibrary/26quesandhgrefs.pdf; & http://archive.nacwa.org/pubs/cleanwater/august00/mercury.cfm
(b) AMSA, Mercury Source Control/Pollution Prevention, http://city.palo-alto.ca.us/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=3745
Metropolitan Council Environmental Services, p5,
http://www.metrocouncil.org/environment/PollutionPrevention/MCES_VMRA.pdf

more: www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

[cosmik debris]

60. Can't you see the pattern?

You are repeating yourself as if you think it will make a difference.

Your behavior is not normal.

You are obsessing over this.

You are compulsively posting the same old shit over and over.

You seem totally detached from reality.

You need help.

[restlessnative77]

33. cosmic debris has debris in his head and it's atomic weight is 200.59

what's your stake in all this? So far you have offered no information all you do is say nay,,

[cosmik debris]

36. Have you even bothered to read both sides of this issue?

Or will you just settle for one side of the story like philb?

[philb]

48. All of the credible evidence is one one side, all medical studies, all Gov't agency statements, all

EPA, Municipal Sewer Agency, and Oak Ridge National Laboratory studies, etc.

You haven't supplied a single credible reference to counter a single thing that I've posted.

[cosmik debris]

53. You need help

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=30981&mesg_id=31408

[cosmik debris]

22. Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome

Your behavior bears a remarkable resemblance to the behavior described as Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome. Especially in respect to the fact that your ego is so closely involved in finding the cure for these sick children.

I really think you need to get help before anymore children are hurt by your quackery.

[chicagomd]

28. My God you are blind.

Your "expert" admitted in court to fraudulently making claims you are using for evidence.

What the hell is wrong with you?

[philb]

54. Your post doesn't seem to be relevant to this thread; what are you talking about?

No expert that I've quoted here has been in court and I'm quoting mainly Gov't agency statements and gov't agency studies and medical lab results.
I don't depend on expert statements regarding things like the average level of mercury in people with and without amalgams or such.
Thats a matter of medical lab measurements by millions of tests
and measurements by EPA and municipal sewer agencies.

www.flcv.com/damspr1.html
www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

[Tumbulu]

61. my two cents

I was always sickly, as a child, as an adult. I had lots of cavities, too. My big claim to fame was having them all done without Novocaine because Novocaine made me sick. I had many root canals without any anesthesia. Sickly but tough.

When I came back from W. Africa in the Peace Corps I had internal parasites and was really ill for years until I could get medical insurance and finally have a correct diagnosis and treatment. But still I got every cold three times and every flue twice.

In the early 80's I read a lot about the whole mercury thing in the fillings and decided that maybe my feeble health could be improved by replacing them with gold fillings.

Without insurance it took me 2 years working with a good dentist who loved to work with gold to replace all that amalgam. He replaced a quadrant of fillings every 6 months. That is as fast as I could do it with my finances and time.

Well, guess what? I did get stronger and sick far less often and my current dentist loves the beautiful gold fillings. She says that they last way longer than the other metals as well. She told me that she switched to composites maybe 10 years ago, something like that.

So, before you all jump up and down about how great mercury is in your mouth, here is my story. Would I do it again? Yes, I think that it was a good investment as gold fillings last a lifetime vs 20-30 years on average for other materials. Now, however, small cavities are filled with composites.

I bet if you had a few cavities it would make little difference. But I have a gold mine in my mouth. I think when a person has lots of dental work it can make a difference. This is my completely subjective opinion. I know of no one else in the world who did this. Although I have sat next to dentists on airplanes who go on and on about how superior gold fillings are to everything else and how smart I was to do this. Of course they may all wish for such a good business, replacing old fillings with gold ones. Especially without any anesthetic.

[philb]

65. Thousands have been documented recovered from 30 chronic health conditions after amalgam replacemen

Because of mercury's impact on accumulating in all major organs directly proportional to the number of amalgam fillings and the neurological, cardiovascular, endocrine, immune, and reproductive effects of mercury over time, mercury is a significant factor in virtually all chronic health conditions. The mechanisms by which mercury from dental amalgam cause over 30 chronic health conditions have been well documented by thousands of peer-reviewed studies in the medical literature.
www.flcv.com/amalg6.html
www.flcv.com/indexa.html

And likewise most people with any of these chronic conditions recover after amalgam replacement and mercury detox- again as has been documented by lots of peer-reviewed studies and clinical cases
We have documentation on over 60,000 such cases here:
www.flcv.com/hgremove.html
and lots more in our files and Newsletters

an example of one peer-reviewed study that those with autoimmune conditions are often due to mercury and recover after replacement

The beneficial effect of amalgam replacement on health in patients with autoimmunity. Prochazkova J, Sterzl I, Kucerova H, Bartova J, Stejskal VD; Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Jun;25(3):211-8.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_/25_3/NEL250304A07_Prochazkova_.pdf

Results of lymphocyte reactivity measured with MELISA indicate that in vitro reactivity after the replacement of dental amalgam decreased significantly to inorganic mercury, silver, organic mercury and lead.
All 6 patients with MS showed significant improvement in health.

Out of 15 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) 11 (73%) had improvement of health.

Out of 8 patients with autoimmune thyroiditis 6 showed significant improvement in health (75%).

5 patients undergoing amalgam replacement had atopic eczema for which other studies have found more diverse factors in autoimmunity causes. 3 out of 5 of these patients had significant improvement in condition (60%).
Of the patients that did not have evidence of significant improvement, most tested immune reactive to nickel and the autoimmunity measure was not improved at the end of the study. For those whose condition was worse, the autoimmunity measure for nickel was higher at the end of the study- indicating that amalgam replacement did not resolve the source of nickel exposure.

The mechanisms by which mercury causes autoimmune conditions like MS, SLE, autoimmune thyroiditis, rheumatoid arthritis, Parkinson’s, etc. is documented by hundreds of peer-reviewed studies and in thousands of people who have recovered after amalgam filling replacement and detoxification.
http://www.flcv.com/ms.html

[chicagomd]

90. Nice story,

And completely irrelevant to my post.

Philb's sources have been discredited over and over again both in the scientific sphere as well as the legal one, not to mention so many times on this message board that most of us just giggle when we see his posts.

As he predictably ignores in his response to me, the dentist who is main proponent of removing mercury fillings has had his license stripped. Huggins is a complete fraud, except in the eye's of "true believers" here like philb.

[Tumbulu]

133. I am sorry if I posted my story in the wrong place.

[varkam]

67. Time for magical medical fun time with Dr. Google!

I swear, your references get better every time I see them! This time, instead of citing actual journal articles, you're citing other pages that you've written that don't even exist! Pure jeanyuss!

[philb]

71. Mercury commonly causes AI conditions MS, lupus, CFS, RA, chron's,etc. through 2 main ways- AI & Im

Mercury causes release of inflammatory cytokines such as Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha(TNFa) and Interleukin-4 (47), which will be documented to be factors in the chronic inflammatory conditions discussed here, including asthma, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, Scleroderma, celiac and chron’s disease, etc. Studies have demonstrated that low concentrations of mercury(HgCl2,ie, 10(-9)-10(-15) M) significantly enhanced chemiluminescence, as well as stimulated H2O2 production by polymorphonuclear leukocytes(137). These studies clearly demonstrate the ability of extremely low levels of HgCl2 not only to suppress various PMN leukocyte functions involved in host defense, but also to stimulate reactive oxygen metabolism(137,95). In vivo, these HgCl2 effects would not only compromise host defense but also promote tissue injury via the local production of reactive oxygen metabolites. This has been demonstrated increase effects of factors in cardiovascular disease and neurological disease. Melatonin, vitamin E, and vitamin C have been found to counter these adverse effects(95a).

HgCl2 induces a protein kinase C-dependent Ca2+ influx through L-type calcium channels(65acd). The calcium/calcineurin-dependent pathway and protein kinase C activation are both implicated in HgCl2-induced IL-4 gene expression; and HgCl2 can activate directly protein kinase C, which is one of the main intracellular targets for HgCl2. Inorganic mercury exposure results in T cell polyclonal activation and the expansion of pathogenic autoreactive anti-class II Th2 cells . These cells produce interleukin (IL)-4 and induce a B cell polyclonal activation that is responsible for autoimmune disease. These effects of HgCl2 appear to be independent of antigen-specific recognition.

Na(+),K(+)-ATPase is a transmembrane protein that transports sodium and potassium ions across cell membranes during an activity cycle that uses the energy released by ATP hydrolysis. Mercury is documented to inhibit Na(+),K(+)-ATPase function at very low levels of exposure(94,65). Studies have found that in asthma, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, Scleroderma, celiac/chron’s/IBS, and eczema cases there was a reduction in serum magnesium and red blood cell(RBC) membrane Na(+)-K+ ATPase activity and an elevation in plasma serum digoxin (87-90,65). The activity of some free-radical scavenging enzymes, concentration of glutathione decreased significantly, while the concentration of serum lipid peroxidation products and nitric oxide increased. The inhibition of Na+-K+ ATPase can contribute to increase in intracellular calcium and decrease in magnesium, which can result in 1) defective neurotransmitter transport mechanism, 2) neuronal degeneration and apoptosis, 3) mitochondrial dysfunction, 4) defective golgi body function and protein processing dysfunction. It is documented that mercury is a common cause of these conditions (22,30,29,47-50,65,87-90,95,96,98,28,etc.)
Studies have also found mercury and lead cause autoantibodies to neuronal proteins and neurofilaments, (18,79ag,80,82). The thymus gland plays a significant part in the establishment of the immune system and lymphatic system from the 12th week of gestation until puberty. Inhibition of thymus function can thus affect proper development of the immune and lymphatic systems. Lymphocyte differentiation, maturation and peripheral functions are affected by the thymic protein hormone thymulin. Mercury at very low concentrations has been seen to impair some lymphocytic functions causing subclinical manifestations in exposed workers. Animal studies have shown mercury significantly inhibits thymulin production at very low micromolar levels of exposure(131). The metal allergens mercuric chloride and nickel sulfate were found to stimulate DNA synthesis of both immature and mature thymocytes at low levels of exposure, so chronic exposure can have long term effects(132). Nickel in stainless steel braces and crowns is a source of reactivity and autoimmunity along with gold and palladium in crowns(32bc,16-18) Also, micromolar levels of mercuric ions specifically blocked synthesis of ribosomal RNA, causing fibrillarin relocation from the nucleolus to the nucleoplasm in epithelial cells as a consequence of the blockade of ribosomal RNA synthesis(133,81e). This appears to be a factor in deregulation of basic cellular events and in autoimmunity caused by mercury. There were specific immunotoxic and biochemical alterations in lymphoid organs of mice treated at the lower doses of mercury. The immunological defects were consistent with altered T-cell function as evidenced by decreases in both T-cell mitogen and mixed leukocyte responses. Mercury caused increased immunoreactivity for glial fibrillary protein at 1 nanamole (0.2 ppb) concentration, and microglial response at even lower levels(134). There was a particular association between the T-cell defects and inhibition of thymic pyruvate kinase, the rate-limiting enzyme for glycolysis(135). Pyruvate and glycolysis problems are often seen in mercury toxic children being treated for autism(136).

Peer-reviewed references:
www.flcv.com/inflamhg.html

[cosmik debris]

72. Obsessive behavior is not healthy.

[philb]

79. We're reseachers and patient suport org coordinators- is scientiic research obsessive?

Is discussing practices that are documented to have caused major harm to millions a waste of time?
Is your continual posting with no substitive information not obsessive, but our posting of Gov't agency documentation and statements, Medical Lab documentation, medical study documentation obsessive?

Should patient support organizations working with thousands of people with cronic conditions cease operating and leave everyone's health up to the Pharm industry- who haven't cured many people's conditions and whose info is often rather on the questionable side, with Pharm prescriptions being the 3rd leading cause of hospitalizations and deaths, and with many thousands of significant adverse effects reported to FDA.

[cosmik debris]

80. If your stuff was valid...

Posting it once or twice would be normal. Posting it 4 or 5 times would be strident. Posting it 6 or 7 time is excessive. Posting the same BS as many times as you have is definitely a sign of mental illness. Even if your posts are true, your behavior is throughly unreasonable. Your obsession is accomplishing nothing except to convince people that you lack mental stability. Your compulsion to re-post the same links over and over just make people question your credibility.

In short, you are acting like a nutter. No matter what you say, if you act like a nutter, no one will believe you.

[salvorhardin]

85. So it's not just vaccinations you're against?

You pretty much oppose all of modern pharmacology?

[philb]

91. We are with a patient support organization interacting with thousands of patients with chronic healt

health problems caused by exposure to mercury and other toxics. We have researchers who not only supply us information but do research for Gov't agencies and have many years of research experience in issues like this. We have coordinators in most states and several foreign countries who interact with patients and provide information on doctors and dentists with experience and successful experience at dealing with their conditions,
we interact with doctors and dentists at medical and dental conferences and otherwise who are treating people with conditions of interest. We also provide information on tests and summaries of research on causes and treatments /cures of their conditions from the medical literture, as posted on our web sites.

Over a period of many years in their work or on the side our researchers have searched the Science Citation Index and National Library of Medicine for most of the thousands of studies that have been done on issues related to the conditions and toxic exposure effects that we deal with. We also interact with other Univ. researchers and med. school researchers who are doing research in these areas.

Our primary concern is health effects of mercury and similar toxic metals. But in doing research on the conditions of the patients we interact with, we look at all options for treatment success and are generally knowledgable of experience of most options for dealing with chronic health problems. We are supportive of patients using whatever treatment for their condition is most likely to be beneficial to their health. But from our extensive experience in following patients with chronic conditions, avoidance of toxic exposures and detoxification of toxic body burdens is generally helpful with most chronic conditions, and as previously documented has led to recovery by many thousands of people from many types of chronic health problems.
www.flcv.com/hgremove.html
etc. As noted before, I mostly get my doc. for support from our website; but occasionally do searches also)
(our researchers have researched other toxic exposures than toxic metals, but that is separate from our organization's goals)

[salvorhardin]

95. Why do you think the majority of medical professionals and scientists disagree with you?

Why do you think the majority of medical professionals and scientists disagree with you (and your organization)?

I just looked at your resume on file at the FDA and while you have an impressive record of fighting for the consumer and the environment in Florida, neither your educational background or work experience is in the field of medicine or medical research. So why do you think the consensus scientific opinion differs from your own?

[varkam]

98. Hey salvor!

Hadn't seen you around in a minute - hope all is well. :hi:

[philb]

130. Scientific consensus clearly supports what I posted here. Show me evidence otherwise

My primary references are consensus documents by the U.S., Canadian, and World Health Organization health organizations

EPA
U.S. Dept. of Health Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry Agency Consensus Document on Mercury, see ref.
Health Canada
World Health Organization
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

along with documentation from the web site of
DoctorsData Lab

I gave references and links in some cases where available

So if there are scientist or scientific organizations or Gov't agency information that disagree with me,
what are they? we're not aware of any that disagree and we've been doing research in this area for many years. Our researchers are among the most cited sources on such things. But their sources always include Gov't agency doc. and other peer-reviewed sources, nothing based on opinion. And as you note, we do intervene in Gov't hearings and such sometime, but we also consistently make our case and have never been discredited. As I could confirm with cases. And transcripts.

[cosmik debris]

131. Your References are BOGUS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=31319&mesg_id=31494

Your credibility has been shot to shit.

[salvorhardin]

169. That's odd... The EPA, CDC and FDA do not seem to share your opinion

Mercury is used in dentistry in dental amalgam. Dental amalgam is a direct filling material used in restoring teeth. It is made up of approximately 40-50% mercury, 25% silver and 25-35% a mixture of copper, zinc and tin. Amalgam use is declining because the incidence of dental decay is decreasing and because improved substitute materials are now available for certain applications. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that, at present, there is scant evidence that the health of the vast majority of people with dental amalgam is compromised, nor that removing amalgam fillings has a beneficial effect on health. More information is available at: http://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/factsheets/amalgam.htm
Source: http://www.epa.gov/mercury/exposure.htm

In September 2006, an advisory panel to the FDA reviewed FDA’s research and heard presentations from the public about the benefits and risks of mercury and amalgam. This was a combined panel of the Dental Products Panel from FDA’s Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH), and the Peripheral and Central Nervous System Drugs Advisory Committee from FDA’s Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (CDER).

The panel generally agreed that there is no evidence that dental amalgams cause health problems in the majority of the population. However, the panel did raise concerns about the lack of knowledge concerning the effects of dental amalgam on specific groups, including pregnant women, small children, and people who are especially sensitive to mercury.
Source: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html

[varkam]

112. Again with the references!

Some are not even in english, some are from books, others are irrelevant to what you're citing it for, and most are over a decade old! Did you write this crap for a college course and are just recycling it here?

[Book Lover]

92. I have started alerting on philb's posts and I hope other skeptics do too

By posting so much (mis)information about your pet cause, you are providing medical advice and, dangerous or benign, that is against DU rules. If the mods disagree with me, well, I've been thinking about leaving DU anyway.

[philb]

93. What misinformation is posted here? Primary refs. Gov't agencies & med labs

there has been no credible evidence provided by anyone of any statement inaccuracy. I don't know what alerting is, but all of the clear misinformation here that I've seen is by the spammers who post silly stuff with no evidence cited to support their statements.
I don't think there is any credible expert in the world who disagrees with the original post here; in years of research we've never seen any such evidence, nor evidence that there are experts who disagree with the Gov't agency references and medical lab test results that I posted in support of my statement.

Do you have such evidence? Haven't noticed you before but what do you disagree with? And why?

[cosmik debris]

97. What is your goal in posting in this forum?

If you goal is to sway our opinion, you failed. Whether you believe it or not, your arguments are not credible.

If your goal is to annoy, you succeeded. Whether you believe it or not, your style of argument is quite abrasive.

Whatever your goal is, you should reconsider your methods and try a different approach.

[philb]

100. My goal is public education. Everything I posted here is fact supported by credible doc. & Gov't A

gency information. You saying my post was not accurate without explaining what and why doesn't change reality. As noted before my main sources are Gov't agency statements that are summary documents of lots of Gov't research correctly cited and summary info from medical lab tests on their web site. But also supported by hundreds more (cited) peer-reviewed studies. In reviewing many thousands of peer-reviewed studies, we've never seen a credible study with documentation to the contrary. The only thing we've seen to the contrary were the Quackwatch group statements and when this was debated between we and they in Dept. of Health Hearing we won and they were embarassed(as I can document by URL of hearing transcript). And I haven't seen anyone on this thread post one, though I've asked if you could do so.
So it seems to me that either you don't read posts and documentation, or your don't have enough science and experience to be able to evaluate the validity of evidence and post a credible case, or you have some special reason for saying what you say irregardless of what you believe.

I truly don't understand what you are trying to do so educate me. No one has told me anything that I've posted that they specifically disagree with and why, that I've noticed. Or anything that they specifically think is inaccurate. Since I made all As in my science and logic courses and our researchers have strong science backgrounds with 2 PhDs and an MD, I think we can understand if you can make a case.
But if no one can say specifically what they think is inaccurate and why, I can only assume some kind of game is being played here.

[cosmik debris]

101. You have failed in your goal.

When both sides of the evidence are examined, your evidence is inadequate. Your links do not support your claims.

Every time someone posts evidence in contradiction to yours, you ignore it. Then you claim that no one has contradicted you.

You are obsessed with this behavior of posting and reposting. It has become an unhealthy compulsion for you. It destroyed your credibility and made you a laughing stock.

If your goal was education, you can't achieve that by the means you have chosen.

Here are some examples of your failure:

Your first link in the OP proves that Mercury is toxic. No one denies that. But intelligent people know that toxicity is dependent on dose and transport mechanism. You don't give information on dose and transport mechanism. Therefore your link is pointless. It is a red herring. You can quit posting that link.

Your second link deals only with mercury in the health care environment, not amalgam fillings. It is also a red herring. You can stop posting that one too.

Your third link deals only with inhaled mercury vapor concentrations. You have not established that such concentrations exist. Therefore your third link is also a red herring with no relevance.

Your fourth link says: "The fact that mercury is taken up in its various binding forms does not, of course, mean that it is subsequently absorbed by the body." That casts considerable doubt on your claims. It also says: "Reaction routes of this type do not, of course, apply to microscopically detectable fragments of amalgam fillings. These pass almost unchanged through the gastro-intestinal tract." That casts further doubt.

Your next link is a lab report (that has obviously been tampered with) from a single patient . It has LAB#: F000000-0000-0 and client number 12345. Even if it is accurate, it is anecdotal evidence and has no value. Furthermore, the discussion is not attributed to anyone whose credentials might be checked. The whole thing is worthless.

Your sixth link is to an article which makes claims but provides no support for those claims. But it only takes a moment to discover that this person is trying to sell his services based on the unsupported evidence he presents.

YOUR FIRST SIX LINKS ARE BULLSHIT. How does that serve your goal of education when you post utter BULLSHIT?

[trotsky]

104. Game, set, and MATCH.

You kicked some major ass, cd.

[cosmik debris]

105. It doesn't matter

He will still claim that no one has proved him wrong, that he has never been contradicted, and that everything I said is wrong.

But when I saw that he was using a lab report from ONE 73 year old woman (with patient #12345) as evidence for a wider problem, I had to say something.

[lizerdbits]

129. Well you were right

same bullshit and he refuses to admit it.

[philb]

162. Not true; you are the one exposed as making bogus claims; all references are real and credible-

represent scientific consensus as stated by my primary references which are the official policy statement of the U.S Gov't
DOH and Health Canada and World Health Organization,
plus confirmed similarly by big studies by EPA and the Assoc. of Municipal Sewer Agencies by measuring how much is excreted daily into sewers by those with amalgam fillings and those without. They found that those with several amaglams excrete daily into sewers huge levels- approx. 30 micrograms per day, which results in all sewers having high levels of mercury and dental amalgam being by far the largest source of mercury in sewers- plus dumping large amounts of mercury into water bodies and thus into fish. over 30 % of U.S lakes, rivers, bays have high levels of mercury and fish consumption warnings. www.flcv.com/damspr2f.html

Due to these high exposure levels in people and high levels in sewers, most modern countries whose systems aren't controlled by special interest have banned use of amalgam in dentistry or are in the process of doing so or phasing it out or placing limits on its use. www.flcv.com/amalg6.html

And even in the U.S. where the Pharmaceuticals mostly control the medical system and Gov't agencies, over 50% of dentists no longer use amalgam due to the high exposures that dental staff get and the well documented adverse health effects that are common among dental staff. www.flcv.com/dental.html

Its well documented that when a hygeinist polishes amalgams both she and the patient get high levels of mercury vapor exposure, and similar when people with amalgam chew food or drink hot drinks. Mercury vapor is given off continuously by amaglams since elemental mercury will all vaporize over time at room temperature, plus the mixed metals in ones mouth causes galvanic currents that pump extremely high levels of mercury into the gums and oral mucosa, that is then transfered by the blood and nerves to the brain and other parts of the body. www.flcv.com/galv.html

This is why people with amalgams have a lot more oral problems including autoimmune conditions like oral lichen planus and causing oral cancers. www.flcv.com/periodon.html

See any thing inaccurate about any of this? Got any problems with any of the several thousand peer-reviewed studies cited in these links? We've spent many years reading all these papers and compiling this documentation. Its also been reviewed by other researchers and dentists and doctors and others, who commonly cite our info. Since its a reliable, handy, accurate source of what information is available on most topics related to mercury in the medical literature.

If you find a problem, I promise we'll update our info with any credible info you provide, asap.
Our info is continuously updated over time as we find new info or people make suggestions or point out typos or whatever and time provides. Since the exposures are so high, and so many people are adversely affected, we have lots of people coming to us daily regarding where to get info on how to best deal with their issues.
and we have lots of thank you notes from people helped which is what makes all the volunter time worthwhile.

[lizerdbits]

163. You were the one busted you are a FRAUD!

He already went through your links and you are too mentally ill or stupid to see it.

[cosmik debris]

167. So, tell us, is Mrs. Sample Patient recovering well? n/t

:rofl:

philb=fraud

:rofl:

[cosmik debris]

128. GOTCHA! CAUGHT RED HANDED And you have no answer!

Your dishonesty is obvious now. It is time for you to go. We can all see through your fakery.

Bye Bye Bernie.

[GoneOffShore]

94. Don't leave

Just keep alerting the posts.

I've been watching the nonsense posted and just can't believe the lack of rigor exhibited.

Dangerous bullshit 24/7.

[Warpy]

96. Skeptics, health professionals, and those of us

who are old enough to remember friends who died from those "usual childhood diseases" should all alert on this BS.

It's not just ignorant, it's potentially dangerous. New parents tend to be afraid of everything, all too aware of how fragile and dependent an infant is. There have already been outbreaks of these diseases again among kids who are unvaccinated in areas where schools don't require them. It would be tragic to have these easily preventable diseases come back because of the hysteria of a few ignorant ranters.

[philb]

125. All of my origial post is documented by credible science, and represents scientific consensus

All of the major Gov't Health bodies in the developed world agree and their consensus statement that dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most people with amalgams was quoted,
U.S. Dept. of Health , EPA, World Health Organization, and the Association of Municipal Sewer Agencies all have confirmed this,

in addition to many thousands of medical lab tests.

No one has produced a single credible source to the contrary or an indication that any credible organization or expert disagrees with this.

What is it that you guys don't agree with? And why? Please tell us.

Rather than continuing to make unsubstanted claims, I wish you guys would please produce a single credible source of evidence to the contrary.

[cosmik debris]

126. Waiting for an answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=31319&mesg_id=31494

Tell me how posting bullshit helps your goal of public education.

[philb]

135. There is nothing in that post that proves that we've ever deliberately tried to mislead anyone

or that the statement that I made isn't supported by the majority of credible evidence in the literature
Neither 101 or post 100 that it responded to have any links so I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Since the review studies that I sometimes cite have over 3000 peer reviewed studies plus some additional cites or links thrown in for additional information, I can't say that you can't find a minor problem in one of the references or links, since links change over time, and sometimes the wrong link might be accidently cited. But I'm certain none of us have deliberately tried to mislead anyone, and I'm also sure that the majority of evidence supports the statement that I was making. We do sometime include studies that we know aren't perfect if they deal with the issue in question and have relevant information on the topic. Unfortunately there are a lot of imperfect studies out there. But we don't cite ones that we know are misleading or wrong, without noting such and don't state anything unless we believe that the consensus of evidence cited clearly supports the statement.

It appears to me that you are just trying to divert attention from the science and the real issues here. We could go back and discuss miscellaneous stuff about past posts if we had enough time. But I'd rather just cut to the chase and respond directly to what it is that you disagree with and why.

I'm not aware of a single Gov't agency or credible expert or organization or credible study or etc. that disagrees with what I posted, and I've not seen any credible statement or evidence that contradicts what I posted.

Please explain what it is that you disagree with and the evidence that it was inaccurate.
if you would do that we can cut to the chase and stop wasting time.


Do you disagree that amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most people with amalgams?
if so why ATSDR & WHO and DD could be so wrong?

Do you disagree that amalgam is the largest source of mercury in sewers?
If so, what is wrong with the EPA and Municipal Sewer Agency studies documenting this.

Do you disagree that amalgam is a major source of mercury in water bodies and fish?
If so, what is wrong with MSA and EPA studies documenting this?

Do you disagree that Mom's amalgams are a major source of mercury in the fetus and in infants?
If so, what's wrong with the peer-review studies documenting it and the medical lab tests that were used?
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html

Which of these do you disagree with and why? Be specific, lets cut to the chase.

[cosmik debris]

138. You posted a link to a fake lab report!

That is plenty of evidence of your dishonesty.

You posted links that do not support your position.

That is ample evidence that you are disingenuous.

You posted links that are totally irrelevant.

That is sufficient evidence that you are blowing smoke.

Your credibility has been shot to shit.

You can't change the subject. You got BUSTED!

[philb]

144. Here is the correct link for the WHO report; you will find my cite is accurate

INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMME ON CHEMICAL SAFETY
ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH CRITERIA 118
INORGANIC MERCURY
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc118.htm

[Warpy]

127. How many times do you want us to jump through those hoops?

We've already debunked you sufficiently and repeatedly.

Go away.

[philb]

137. See post 135; you can't provide credible evidence contrary to any of origanal post or #135

I challenge you to provide a single Gov't finding or credible study or Medical Lab tests or credible expert opinion contrary to what I posted there.

Why do you keep claiming to have debunked the Gov't agency findings and Medical lab tests posted on their web site that are my primary references, when you haven't posted a single credible bit of information to the contrary?

If you can do so, please do it and then if I can't debunk what you say I'll concede on that point. You have't provided anything yet however.

[cosmik debris]

139. We don't need to refute bogus links.

When you post obvious bullshit there is no need to search google. They are BOGUS! You can't defend them. The lab report is obviously a fake, and even if it is real it is only anecdotal. The six links you provided do more damage to your case. They do not support your position.

You got BUSTED!

[philb]

143. There are no bogus links; I checked them; You are just trying to divert attention from clear facts

I looked; none of the links are bogus; some of the Gov't agency links have changed
but 2 of them take you to the new site after a small delay. The review paper this comes from was done in the past when the links were different. The references are whats important, not the links but most of the links work. and by posting a few of the references, I wasn't saying that the ones I listed were all of the evidence supporting my statements. I only listed a few for convience but to not take up too much space. For the rest I gave a URL: www.flcv.com/damspr1.html

The World Health Organization reference is to a 2000 page summary report from 1991 and that link has changed since we did our review paper. But the references are all correct and correctly sited. You can check all of the references if you want to.
I can try to find a new link or you can, but the report is available. Or was last time we checked. The statement in it is still valid, per WHO.

The Kingman study of the large military population was funded by National Institute of Dental Research and the cite is accurate. You can find the abstract in Medline. It found like the others that amalgam is the largest source of mercury in people with amalgam.

The links aren't whats important, the Gov't agency reports cited are what is important, the links were just provided for convenience as long as they work.

The cited Summary Report on mercury of the Dept. of Health (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry) is the official U.S. Gov't source for this issue and says exactly what I stated, amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most people who have amalgams, on page 5 or 7 of the report.

The World Health Organization summary report on mercury states the same thing and is quoted by lots of people. Sorry the link has been changed by WHO or perhaps we picked up the wrong one from their web site. We have the document. You can confirm the cite accuracy however if you like. Here is the correct link, you will find that my cite is accurate:
INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMME ON CHEMICAL SAFETY ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH CRITERIA 118 INORGANIC MERCURY
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc118.htm

The cite to Doctors Data web site which documents that of the thousands tested there those with amalgam have 10 times as much exposure as those without is to the medical lab website per the URL I gave. That seems to be correct.
It has reference level(averages) for both those with amalgam and for those without, with additional medical study info that also supports their reference levels.

Likewise the link to the Swedish medical lab seems to work, though they don't have the same kind ofsummary info on their web site as doctorsdata lab. But they do have supportive documentation on their site as well.
They also have contact info and I've talked to them and gotten their reference levels, you can too. If you order their test it comes with reference levels which are readily available.

All of the cites and references are accurate and state exactly what I said. There are no bogus references, but apparently some old links have been changed by the agencies. We don't have any contol over that, but the links are only provided for convenience, as long as they are unchanged. The references are what is important, and most of the most important links still work.

The statements on the post are accurate and the references are correct, lots of Gov't agency summary statements, medical lab data, peer-reviewed studies. Both the sited references and the links are accurate and document what was stated in my review document that I posted the link for: www.flcv.com/damspr1.html
Actually a lot more than I posted is supported as well.

I'm confident that neither you nor anyone else here will be able to find any credible evidence or source to the contrary.
We are very familiar with the info and know its correct.
If you can find a problem, I'll be glad to admit. But you can't and no one can.

[cosmik debris]

145. You continue to make a fool of yourself.

The lab report is an obvious fake. It is indefensible.

The WHO site is real but it does not deal with amalgam fillings.

All six of the sites are bogus for the reasons I outlined.

You are a faker and a fraud.

You are excused, you may leave now.

[Evoman]

147. Stop. Please.

You're embarrasing yourself.

Your links do not support your position. Your ignorance of chemisty is obvious.

[philb]

157. Obviously you are wrong; the references are Gov't agency findings and Medical lab test results

posted on the Med Lab site. And the links which are provided for convenience also are what I said.
There are no bogus references and or bogus links.
Our Chemistry understanding is very advanced, as anyone reading the papers could easily see- post grad level, find a problem with anything that indicates poor understanding of chemistry. Don't think you can.

the references for my original post are in damspr1.html
as I posted. I challenge you to find a bogus reference or link in my source document.

Its you who embarass yourself by making a clearly inaccurate statement, without being able to support what you say.
You can provide no credible source or reference that contradicts what the Gov't agency statments say

That amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most who have amalgam fillings

The the average exposure and level excreted in those with amalgams is approx. 10 times the average in those without

That dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in sewers and sewer sludge and a major source in water bodies and fish

That dental amalgam is the largest source of mercury in most Moms, and that the mercury in Mom's rapidly is transfered across the placento to the fetus and respresents the largest source of mercury in the fetus, commonly causing harm,
and also is major source of mercury in Mom's milk which is a major source of mercury in infants.
www.flcv.com/fetaln.html


This was all documented and correctly referenced in my origianl post.
All references were correct. One link to a Government site was not up to date but was correctly provided.

Which reference in my source document provided do you think is inaccurate, not credible, or misleading?
I don't think you can find any. I know no one has so far. What I posted represents clear scientific consensus,
with no credible sources or evidence available to the contrary.

[cosmik debris]

161. LOL! philb=fraud LOL!

:rofl:

[Evoman]

178. Dude...you posted links that have nothing to do with dental amalgams.

And you posted to ONE lab test. Thats really pretty fucking pathetic.

I have a biochemistry degree. I have a biology masters. I have taught various classes of biology for non-science majors. So please believe me when I say that I KNOW when someone is ignorant on the topic of science. And you, my friend, are ignorant.

Quick lessons you need to learn:

1) Not all "peer-reviewed" journals are equal. A journal is only as good as the people "reviewing" it.

2) If a journal is not "peer-reviewed" by credible scientists, then it's not a "peer-reviewed scientific journal".

3) Book reviews or amazon listings are not peer-reviewed journals.

*4) Websites on the internet, no matter how flashy they are, are not good sources unless they are put up by respectable organizations. A respectable organization is not determined by it's name, but by the people in the organization. In many of your cases, you have posted links to frauds and people trying to sell stuff. Again...respectable.

**5) VERY IMPORTANT. PLEASE READ. YOU CAN NOT USE A JOURNAL ARTICLE ON AN UNRELATED TOPIC AS EVIDENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE SIMILAR WORDS, NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE PAPER MAY BE. This is important. If the study is on mercury poisoning in fish, it does not mean you should link to it when posting "evidence" for your anti-vaccine diatribes. So when you post a bunch of great links (and they may be superb) that have nothing to do with what your discussing, it doesn't mean your links or studies are bogus. It means YOU ARE BOGUS. Not that you don't post shitty links...you do. I mean...that lab test. A real doozy, let me tell you. But anyhow, the point still stands. You often post some great studies. Really nice. But those same studies don't a)make the conclusions you think they do b)often contradict you.

Not that I expect you will learn anything from me. Why would you? People smarter than I have tried.

[ConcernedCanuk]

177. I gotta go with artist113 and philb on this one - I only read a little over 100 of the posts

.
.
.

I have my own history on this one, but I'll spare the anecdotal part.

"Dental amalgam has been controversial ever since it was introduced, early in the nineteenth century, because of its mercury content. People of the Napoleonic era knew full well that mercury was poisonous, and the best that anyone has ever claimed about amalgam is that the mercury exposure may be too small to hurt anyone. Over time, though, a great body of evidence has accumulated showing that mercury is release from amalgam in significant quantities, that it spreads around the body, including from mother to fetus, and that the exposure causes physiological harm. A growing number of dentists, physicians, researchers, citizen activists, politicians, and regulators have come to the conclusion that the time has come to consign amalgam to the “dustbin of history.”"

The above quote is from The International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology

The link above is to the page where the .pdf entitled "The Scientific Case Against Mercury Amalgam A review of the scientific evidence demonstrating significant exposure to mercury and resulting physiological harm from dental amalgam." That is where the quote came from.

It is 22 pages long, with over 2 pages of references.

From Page 18



______


I suggest some of the posters read the whole thing before they continue suggesting that there are no dangers in amalgam fittings.

[cosmik debris]

179. Subjective reports from a survey?

Do you really consider that objective scientific data?

You set the bar pretty low!

[trotsky]

181. Do you know *why* amalgam was controversial when it was introduced?

Because mercury is toxic? Nope.
Because "Big Mercury" forced it on everyone? No again.

Seriously, this is the funniest part of this whole anti-amalgam nonsense. The American Society of Dental Surgeons (the organization of professional dentists at the time amalgam was introduced) hated it because it was so easy to use, just about ANYBODY could drill and fill teeth! Their livelihood was at risk! In other words, the scenario roughly 150 years ago would have had crusaders like philb and others on the side of the AMALGAM-USING crowd! The amalgam users were the renegades, bucking the establishment and making dental care affordable to the masses. The amalgam opposition was the establishment! The "big business" that today's anti-amalgamists hate so much.

I just have to laugh. :rofl:

[artist113]

207. Affordable and still very toxic, nothing changes that part.

So the good guys were the ones who wanted to put mercury into
poor people's teeth.  How special.  And the bad guys were the
ones who wanted to deny this wonderful treatment for the poor.
 Just as they are today.  Trying to stop the placement of a
toxin in the mouths of children from poor families.  What
horrible people these must be.  And what an unbelievable
stretch of logic to try to justify something that simply
cannot be justified.  

Well, as one of those poor people who started coming down with
diseases that were not even known of before that time, thanks
a lot for nothing.  As one of the millions whose life was
destroyed by this marvellous treatment, thank you for nothing.
 As someone who has not only personally experienced the
horrors of mercury toxicity, but also read and talked to many
other people who have suffered from it, thank you for nothing
from all of us.  

Just one more thing.  Don't any of you, do any of us, any more
favors. You have done enough damage.

[chicagomd]

183. Here is the thing:

It is not a matter of the people disagreeing with ceritan posters wanting everyone to go out and get their heads filled up with mercury. It is really more a matter of being able to back up statements that you make with more than the crap evidence which is all philb and his little merry band spam all over this forum.

At best his resources are testimonials that taken as a whole still don't amount to squat when it comes to evidence. At worst they are self serving links to websites selling therapies that are harmful, or just simply violate the laws of physics like suggesting mercury exhists as a gas at room temperature.

[artist113]

187. Mercury in any form is toxic to all living things

Mercury in any form is toxic to all living things.

In reading replies to this post I am struck right away by
references to 
safe dosages of Mercury.  There are no safe dosages of
Mercury.  
To even talk about Mercury in the context of dosages is
unscientific and has
nothing to do with medicine.  Dosage implies something that
will heal, such as a medication.  Mercury doesn't heal
anything.  It hurts and kills things.  Mercury is the second
most toxic substance on the planet. So, how can there be such
a thing as a safe "dosage" of the stuff. How can it
be "safely" used to fill people's teeth, put into
children’s
vaccines to kill bacteria, or anything else?   It is put into
the vaccines to kill bacteria, read that carefully, kill
bacteria.  Any chance that enough of something that is used
to kill bacteria just might be able to make you or a small
child really sick?  I think so.

The very notion that some clown somewhere declares there is a 
safe dosage level of it that can used on living beings is
ludicrous.
To buy that idea is delusional.  It is cruel, misleading,
dangerous,
Sociopathic, and narcissistic thinking.  It is commerce using
and promoting a highly poisonous substance, mercury, that
should never have been allowed to be used anywhere near
people or any other living thing.  And they have always known
that.  The governmental regulatory agencies have always known
it too.  Yet, they allow its continued use.  

And just who is it that cares about your health?  None of
these 
guys that promote its use and defend its use, I can assure
you.  
It is toxic at any level and in any form which is all the
science
and truth that you need to know. Using the word dosage in
regards to mercury is just plain misleading.

[cosmik debris]

188. What flavor of kool-ade was that you drank.

If you were right, everyone who came into contact with mercury would suffer. That obviously is not true, so you are obviously full of shit.

There is plenty of evidence that some exposure to mercury is not harmful. There are some forms or compounds of mercury that are less harmful than others.

Your hysteria is no doubt borne of ignorance. That's excusable if it is corrected, but left to fester it is worst than any disease.

[artist113]

189. Everyone who comes into contact with mercury does suffer

Everyone who comes into contact with mercury does suffer. 
Just look at this behavior.  Anyone who writes that stuff.
Swears at people.  Calls them names.  Makes fun of them.  Puts
them down. Belittles them, etc.  All in the name of defending
the use of a highly toxic substance in medical and dental
situations.  Not great traits under any circumstances.  Not
healthy behavior.  Not socially acceptable behavior.  That
person is damaged.  He just doesn't know it.  He thinks he is
normal and undamaged.  While he is the most damaged of us all.
 He willfully advocates for the continuing use of a substance
that damages babies, young children, pregnant women, and men
and women all over the world.  Mental and psychological damage
is caused by a neurotoxin, which is what mercury is. 
Uncontrolled anger, road rage, narcissism, antisocial
behavior, defending the indefensible, gloating over mean
behavior, crazy and inappropriate behavior could all be
symptoms of mercury damage. 

Instead of defending this cruel ongoing behavior, you should
be mad at the perpetrators who have done this.  People who
have knowingly and purposely left other people damaged human
beings only fit to write hate messages on web site discussion
boards. People who have done it on purpose, fully aware of the
damage it could cause, but who did it anyway.

You said it yourself.  There are some forms of mercury that
are less harmful than others.  That is comforting to those of
us who have had massive exposure to the really harmful stuff.
Less harmful.  Listen to yourself.  You are supporting the use
of the stuff that comes in forms that could be labeled
"harmful" and "less harmful."  Your own
words.  That makes it all okay and is comforting to think
about.  

Would you like a harmful dose or a less harmful dose of a
highly poisonous neurotoxin?  Now there is a choice I hope I
never have to make.  Unfortunatley, most of us are not even
given that much choice when it comes to mercury being
introduced into our systems.  It was done and still is without
even telling us.  No choice, no voice, not even the courtesy
of informing us.  Then years of denial and telling us we have
a problem if we don't like what has been done to us.  Years of
being called hypochondriacs. Years of people calling us nuts. 
Years of multiple health issues.  Years of living half lives. 
Then to have to battle officials to get rid of the toxic
substance and to save our lives.  

It is insane, that this is repeated over and over and over
again.  And will continue to be repeated over and over again
until this insanity is finally stopped once and for all.

[lizerdbits]

LMAO

Anyone who disagrees with you must have been exposed to mercury? You're going to become as much of a joke as Bernie. :rofl:

[trotsky]

190. Water is toxic.

At the right dose, you bet your ass it is. So there is a "harmful" amount of water and a "less harmful" amount of water.

Same with salt, vitamins, even oxygen for crying out loud.

Your alarmist ignorant emotional baloney will not fly here. Maybe someday when some facts are on your side you can present an argument rather than just insinuating that criticism of your non-scientific, unsupported opinions is somehow linked to mercury poisoning itself.

[cosmik debris]

191. Your ignorance of chemistry

Is exceeded by your ignorance of biology.

You insist on emotional arguments rather than scientific arguments.

You resort to fear when reason fails you.

Hysteria is NOT the solution.

So, show us the proof of this statement: "Everyone who comes into contact with mercury does suffer." Show us some study that proves that mercury is toxic 100% of the time.

[chicagomd]

192. Everyone who comes into contact with mercury dies.

Then again, everyone who reads DU dies at some point as well, hardly reason to stop posting, imo.

EDIT: Crap, I cannot believe I just kicked this thread. Sorry.

[varkam]

193. I swear, if someone kicks this thread one more time I'm going to inject them with a hypo...

chock full of mercury!

Oh...wait...

:D

[artist113]

194. Mercury is toxic

Mercury is toxic.  To try to equate it with water is pretty
far fetched and desperate.  I never put myself out there as a
scientist or a biologist.  You don't have to be either to know
that a horribly toxic substance such as mercury will damage
everything and everybody it comes in contact with in some way.
 Maybe not overtly that you can see, every time, but it will
damage all living things.  That is what it does.  It is a
horribly toxic substance and should not be used in medical or
dental procedures, ever, even in very small amounts.  This is
not rocket science, gang.  It is common sense.  And, for some
reason, common sense is a really hard concept for some people
to come to terms with.  

To spend millions doing studies trying to prove that adding a
horribly toxic substance to vaccines or using it to fill
people's teeth is perfectly safe is the very definition of
insane.  Toxic is toxic.  We have to have water to live. 
Mercury is not water.  We don't need it to live.  There is no
small measure of it that is good for us, helps us, benefits us
in any way.  It has no redeeming qualities.  NONE, nada, zero,
zilch.  No redeeming qualities.  It is toxic at any level. 
Always has been and always will be no matter how you try to
make it seem otherwise.

It is fantastic that there is actually a pro-mercury lobby out
there with a fan club, a secret handshake, cutesy phrases, and
lots of time on their hands to write scathing posts on
numerous topics here.  That intrigues me.  Don't you have
jobs, lives, other interests?  It almost seems that this is
your job, defending the use of mercury by the medical and
dental professions.  Of all the substances on the planet, why
would you all pick mercury to defend?  You have been planted
here haven't you?  It is mind boggling to think that there are
people out there who will go to these lengths to crush the
reputation of common sense and perpetuate the dissemination of
organized and calculated ignorance. 

[lizerdbits]

196. Well you obviously aren't a scientist or biologist

because then you'd know about dosage, method of delivery, and everything else we've mentioned. If it caused as many problems as you claim it would be evident by now.

Nice ad hominem to end your ramble- we don't have jobs other than being in some secret pro mercury society with a secret handshake. Actually it's called being scientists which you admit you don't know much about. It would be fun to post more in response to this kind of drivel but considering I'm EMPLOYED in the field of science and do things on the weekend I just don't have that kind of time. We have to often have to pick the most egregious bullshit for responses. What are our cutesy phrases? Things like LD50 or other terms used in science that you don't understand so think we made them up? We've been planted here? :rofl: Where is my check from Big Mercury? I could use that for vacation in a few months. :rofl:

As for "crush(ing) the reputation of common sense and perpetuat(ing) the dissemination of organized and calculated ignorance" you seem to be doing a fine job of that all by yourself.

[TZ]

197. Hey scientific moron!

Mercury is NOT the most lethal substance in the world.
Read my post about Botulinum to see about how a MORE TOXIC substance actually helps people in small doses.
Oh btw, I've been exposed to mercury from broken thermometers several times and my IQ is obviously 100X higher than yours. Proof that mercury isn't TEH EVUL!:rofl:

[artist113]

205. What a professional subject heading. It says a lot about you.

Hey scientific moron!  What a professional subject heading. 
It says a lot about you.  Read my lips. <>
<><> <><><> <>
<><><><><><><><><>.
(I am not a scientist.)

Delusional people believe they are smarter than everyone else.
 Intelligence comes in many forms and combinations.  Some much
more usable than others.  Some much more beneficial to the
world at large than others.  

Narcissists live in complete denial that others have feelings,
know anything, deserve anything, or even deserve to be treated
decently. It is all about them.  So they shout and scream,
accuse, belittle, and just continue to wear down their
opponents or victims or whoever else gets in their way.

Sociopaths just hate everybody in general and don't care what
happens to them.  They have no compassion.  That is what makes
them sociopaths.  A complete and total lack of compassion. 
Really scary to observe in action.  

Combine all those wonderful qualities and you can get people
who defend the continued use of mercury in dental and medical
applications.  If they weren't mentally ill, why would they
continue to defend the use of mercury? Hum.

[cosmik debris]

198. Your lack of education has led you to

astounding ignorance.

Unlike some others here, I'm bored trying to educate you. It is a lost cause.

You remind me of something my Father used to say to me when I was a know-it-all adolescent like you: "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?"

[varkam]

199. We will not be stopped until all children have autism.

I didn't know what the have a secret handshake though. Guess I'm out of the loop.

I'm guessing you don't eat fish...ever...do you?

[artist113]

201. I rarely eat fish, been through too much to add more mercury

I rarely eat fish as I have been through too much to chance it. I try to stay away from the large predator fish, especially. I suppose you think that all the talk about fish being high in mercury is bunk too. It would figure, considering your position on mercury amalgam fillings.

If you do nothing else, please watch the following video. Enlightening, to say the least. The ADA, in person, in their own words, before congress, stating that of course they know mercury is toxic, yes the vapors leach out of our teeth, yes we ingest it into our bodies, and yes it is cumulative. The FDA is just not in the business of assessing the damage a substance does to living beings. They are in the business of assessing how a substance is used, period. THeir words, not mine.

So, even though the FDA knows it is toxic to use in filling teeth, it isn't up to them to stop its use. Go figure that one out and justify it, if you can.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iczwyc0baFs>

I wouldn't brag about being a scientist these days. Until scientists can raise themselves above being paid hacks for huge greedy corporations or corrupt government agencies that are fronts for huge greedy corporations, their credibility will remain questionable. It all comes down to money, power, and influence. Who has the most of it. Who wants to spend it to prove a point. Who has the most to gain. Who has the most money to spend to override and deride common sense in order to keep public ignorance the status quo.

[artist113]

202. You are almost there, so not funny even in jest. Sick humor.

Considering autism rates have gone from something like 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 200. And if, making sure that all children have autism was the goal, I guess all the scientists, government agencies, huge fund raising groups that deny the link between mercury and autism (because their funding would be cut off if they said otherwise and their cushy jobs would end) and all other health issues, should be delighted as they have almost reached their goal. They should all be justifiably proud of their achievement.

An organized, defended, take no prisoners campaign to make money even if they damage huge numbers of the citizens of this country and the rest of the world that follows the lead of the United States. What about the millions of vaccines that are going overseas to Africa in the name of humanitarian aide? Do these contain thimerasol? Very likely they do. What does that say about our version of humanitarian aide?

Mercury is used in dental amalgams (50% mercury) those dark silver colored fillings in your teeth. Because it is soft and pliable and easy to use, it holds all the other metals together in what is called an amalgam. It also comes out of coal fired power plants and lands in lakes and rivers and ends up in the ocean where the fish you eat come from. Fish cannot excrete mercury from their systems. It just keeps accumulating and the further up the food chain you go, the more mercury a fish can have. So big predator fish such as salmon, shark, swordfish, tuna, etc., can be loaded with it. Mercury in the form of Thimerasol, was used in vaccines and immunizations for all the many years that the autism rates were exploding and our children's little bodies were being systematically destroyed and their minds were made unable to communicate to the world outside of themselves. It is still used in some vaccines such as for flu. Does your health care professional tell you this? Probably not. How could anyone actually tell you with a straight face that the vaccine they are going to inject into your blood stream contains a derivative of mercury?

Mercury has no business being used in any medical or dental applications.

View the video with the FDA official testifying before congress about mercury in amalgam and what the FDA knows absolutely and why they don't do anything about it. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iczwyc0baFs>

[varkam]

203. Well it's clear you are not a scientist...

nor do you have a sense of humor.

Yes, autism rates have been going up. Though this has been due to increased training, surveilance, and sensitivity on the part of physicians to be aware of autism. In the past, many of these cases would of received diagnoses of mental retardation or developmental disorder not otherwise specified. Also, the diagnostic criteria for what counts as autism spectrum disorders has been broadened significantly - thereby leading to more diagnoses. IOW, the actual incidence of autism has probably remained stable.

Also, there's no compelling evidence that mercury causes autism. None. Seems like every couple of weeks a new study comes out that (surprise!) finds no link. How many more studies will it take for the mercury-militia to abandon their feeble arguments? I'm guessing it's never going to happen, because they've already accepted the hypothesis that mercury causes autism and any contrary evidence can be rationalized away by delusional thinking (e.g. It's all a conspiracy!!!1!).

I'm not going to go into a discussion about doses and LD50s with you, because other posters have tried and it's clear your not interested. You've already decided what is the case and you know that you are right, despite what all those arrogant scientists with their white coats and fancy words might say.

Good luck :hi:

[TZ]

195. No chemical knowledge

Most "toxic" substances can be perfectly safe in small doses.
For example, botulinum toxin is one of the worlds MOST DEADLY toxin in certain doses. But in small amounts it is used in cosmetic surgery, and as therapy for certain diseases. When used in small doses its perfectly safe.
Might want to learn about the concept of LD50. But then, obviously you have NO INTEREST in actual science. This fear tactics.
Another chicken little!

[artist113]

206. Get your perfectly safe doses of highly toxic substances here.

Get your perfectly safe doses of highly toxic substances here.
 Now that is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  How vain do you
have to be to let somebody inject botulinum (or botulism,
whichever) toxin into your face? 

I haven't a clue what the concept of LD50 is.  But, then I
didn't think science dealt in concepts.  I thought it dealt in
provable, repeatable research, and hard facts. A concept is an
idea it seems to me.

I think the concept we really need here is the
"reasonable man" one.  Where if it sounds plausible
to a reasonable man then it probably should be taken
seriously.  Any other reasonable person would say, yes,
mercury is toxic, highly toxic, and therefore it is reasonable
that it shouldn't be used around people.  It is just too
dangerous to risk people being damaged.  

Yet literally millions and millions of people have been
damaged and continue to be damaged.  And, what is the
response?  To call someone like me chicken little.  To try to
destroy the career and reputation of Dr. Hal Huggins.  To
harass the person who posts under the name of philb.  To
insist that the Quackwatch site is anything other than a
highly organized smear campaign to destroy the credibility of
anyone outside the mainstream circle of medicine. 

I am a reasonable person and one of the millions.  I intend to
keep what happened to me from happening to other people.  I
intend to call it like I see it in every forum I can find.  To
share my story, direct people to resources, get people to
think about these things, and yes, to question authority even.
 I want people to question everything, to investigate, to
think for themselves. To stop being sheep at the mercy of the
paid hack with the bell around his neck leading them to the
edge of the cliff. 

Mainstream medicine is not in the health business.  It is in
the illness business.  You can't treat health with
pharmaceuticals.  You can only treat illness with
pharmaceuticals.  So, healthy people are bad for the bottom
line of the illness business.  And if there is something out
there that is making them healthy, well it has to be shut down
as a fraud, a scam, a ripoff.  You gotta bring those sheep
back into the illness fold and keep them dangling over the
edge of the cliff on the verge of dying.  They are only good
patients for the system if they are on the verge of dying. 
Lots of opportunity there.  But for heaven's sake don't let
them get near any non-patentable herbal remedies that might
make them feel better, or cure them, or improve their life. 
Only prescriptions with dubious benefits, dangerous side
effects, flimsy safety trials, poor track records, and over
inflated price tags are allowed.  Have to keep the system
afloat.

We need to rename The Health Care System to The Illness Care
System.  Much more appropriate and descriptive of what
actually goes on.

[artist113]

200. Hear the FDA talk about mercury in fillings - enlightening video

Hear the FDA talk about mercury in fillings - enlightening discussion and horrific. They admit verbally and on camera during a Congressional Hearing that they know that mercury vapor escapes from mercury amalgam fillings while they are in our teeth. They admit that it is ingested into the body. They admit it is cumulative. What they say is that they don't assess how the substance effects us only the way it is used and handled. Please, if you do nothing else, watch this video.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iczwyc0baFs>