Police escort Christians out of Castro (San Francisco: November 14, 2008)

[Duncan Grant]

I was reading the on-line version of a local gay paper and found this article. It's a provocative story and well worth the read. :hi:

Police escort Christians out of Castro

About 13 Christian young people who had gone to 18th and Castro streets Friday night, November 14, had to be escorted out of the neighborhood by police after dozens of angry people confronted and surrounded them.

The Castro has been a gathering spot over the past couple of weekends for people rallying against the passage of Proposition 8, but there apparently hadn't been any large protests in the neighborhood that night.

Missy Huff, a 21-year-old with Promised Land Fellowship, said she and about 13 other young people gathered at the intersection to play guitar, sing, and worship, something she said they've done at other times over the past three years.

Huff said they were singing "Amazing Grace" and "Oh, the Blood of Jesus" and hadn't said anything when two men – one whom she took to be a member of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence – approached them and "started getting pretty upset."

More at: The Bay Area Reporter Online

[Taverner]

1. Evangelists: STAY THE FUCK OUT OF CASTRO

IF they wanted your kind of "salvation" they would have stayed home on the farm

[davidinalameda]

3. nice attitude

so people aren't free to go wherever they want in this country?

using your "logic", gay people should stay out of areas where they aren't necessarily welcome because if they do go somewhere are assaulted, then it would be their fault for going there, right?

people should have ignored them; they weren't doing anything except for standing there

I hope the police arrest the thugs who accosted them

you know that the homphobes are using this incident against the LGBT community

the Castro does not belong to any one group, just like no other area belongs to just one group

ignore these people and they'll go away

[Duncan Grant]

6. Why were they in the Castro proselytizing?

As for the "thugs" (your words) who accosted them: From what I read in the article, the "Christians" lied. Yes, they lied.

All that hysteria about men trying to pull down the pants of "Christian" men? A lie.

Those "thugs" have done more for our civil rights than any cheerleader for Jesus ever will -- and we all know it.

I say, good for the thugs for having the good sense to protect our neighborhood and community from these proselytizing heretics (whose only intention is to harm us spiritually and psychologically).

[davidinalameda]

19. protect OUR neighborhood?

http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3497

you sound a lot like those people who claim that they need to protect THEIR kids, marriages, homes, etc from US

a man attacked a 21 year old girl-that's protecting the neighborhood?

that's assault and battery

someone said that he was going to kill one of these people

how is that protecting the neighborhood?

that is making the case for every right winger out there that says that we don't deserve the same rights-members of OUR community can't behave like civilized human beings

anyone who defends mob violence is equally as disgusting as these THUGS

[Duncan Grant]

26. When gays revoke the civil rights of xtians and then provoke them in their churches, we'll talk.

Yes, I'll continue to defend the actions of these "thugs". When OUR community is no longer under attack from the most powerful institutions on the planet -- THEN you can climb up on your white horse and pass judgment on those who reject xtian hypocrisy.

Maybe you could invite your church in Alameda to come to the Castro and ask these arrogant proselytizing THUGS to leave our neighborhood in peace? It seems to be a very xtian thing to do -- allying with gay people, instead of provoking them.

[davidinalameda]

29. MY minister spoke at the Prop 8 rally last Saturday

HER wife and their kid was there

what allying crap? we're on the front lines-as gay Christians, we get attacked from both the bible thumpers AND the Gay community

get off your high horse

when you act like the thugs who would deny us our right by denying others, you sink down to their level

[Duncan Grant]

30. You're defending xtian provocation of LGBT people in their own neighborhood.

You may think I'm your "thug" but I'm starting to think you're their "collaborator". (That "thug" thing is so easy for you to throw around, I thought I'd see how much mileage we can now get out of "collaborator"...)

Why don't you ask your minister to come to the Castro and confront these arrogant fucks who are provoking gay people? I'm sure she'll be happy to ask them to leave us in peace and never come back. And if we're lucky, she'll have enough influence to make it work.

But you and I both know they won't respect her, either. Will they?

I'm going to ask you to back down now from your sanctimonious grandstanding and remember who you're talking to. If you want to alienate me (your gay neighbor and old DU ally and supporter) so be it. I hope it's worth it.

[davidinalameda]

31. what the hell is "xian" anyway

I don't give a happy fuck who I alienate on here; I figure I'm still on lots of people's ignore lists after I defended Obama during the primaries

I think that many of the posters in this forum are still bitter that hill lost and that Barack "McClurkin" Obama won

I stand up for the rights of minorities, as these "xians" are, and am now "sanctimonious grandstanding" because they were treated in a way no one should be treated

I guess that you forget that WE as gays and lesbians would get the same treatment, if not worse, if we go to certain neighborhoods across this country and you and others seem to think that it makes the treatment of these "xians" okay

You're no better than gay bashers when you approve of this kind of behavior

[Duncan Grant]

33. Now I'm no better than a gay basher? You couldn't be more confused.

I won't defend xtians who come into the streets where I live only to provoke my friends and allies (the ones they just disenfranchised from their civil rights). As I said above, when gays remove the rights of fundys/evangelicals and then go into their churches to provoke them -- then we'll talk.

And how about that congregation of yours? Any chance all of you could show up to ask these people to leave the Castro alone? Or will they doubt your christianity because you're still gay? With friends like that...

Or maybe you could just ask them to proselytize at your gay-affirming church? (But we don't want to talk about that, do we? Better they bang their tambourines in the Castro and leave your church alone.)

Please feel free to print this thread out and show it to your minister. I would love to hear what her actions/responses will be to the harassment of LGBT people by christians in the Castro. That is if she's as brave as the thugs who defended the gay people who live here.

[Duncan Grant]

37. Say dwickham, I did some additional research. You're going to hate this (but please read anyway):

20 Nov 2008, 3:44pm
Places Politics Religion: California Queer Rights Religious Extremism
by Mike Tidmus

Those Christians in the Castro

By now you’ve probably heard or read about the Friday Night Massacre of Christians in the Castro that allegedly took place last Friday evening in San Francisco. It’s a given that anytime the leading homo-sex-obsessed dim bulbs of the radical religious right jump on the same story and start yammering about an incident involving peaceful Christians set upon upon by an angry mob of militant homosexuals there is bound to something completely fishy in their account of what actually took place.

According to self-professed ex-gay, ex-addict, ex-con James Hartline, who recently tried to pin the California wildfires on gay people, Sodom Has Resurrected: Video of Horrible Gay Assault Against Christians. Professional homophobe and gay porn aficionado Peter LaBarbera, of Americans for Truth about Homosexuality, true to form, also wants a steaming wad of that hot, homo-hating action: ‘H8ing’ the Christians: Video Shows Aftermath of Homosexual Mob Attack on Christians in San Francisco’s Castro District.

And these ‘mo-haters aren’t alone. Via Joe. My. God, we learn that veteran anti-gay-rally-organizer Lou Engel has christened the incident, The Elijah-Jezebel Showdown. Now that’s Christianist melodrama on a Cecil B DeMille scale! Joe has a video segment from Engel’s yammerings that features one of the Castro crusaders who, with tears in her eyes, alleges she and the others were violently attacked in the Castro.

As for the whole peaceful Christian myth, Joe points to Engel’s involvement with Joel’s Army, an extremist militant fringe group of Dominionists that wants to bring the United States of America under the Christianist equivalent of Islamic Sharia law. Under their rule, gay people and other sex criminals would be stoned to death in the public square.

http://www.miketidmus.com/blog/2008/11/20/christians-in-the-castro/

About those “Peaceful Christians” In the Castro
Jim Burroway
November 19th, 2008

I think it’s safe to say that Joe.My.God was at least as alarmed as I was over news reports of a so-called “Christian” group being escorted out of the Castro by a heavy protective police contingent.

Well Joe.My.God has learned that at least one of those so-called “Christians” is associated with Lou Engle, who is a pastor in the Christian Dominionist group Joel’s Army. She appeared with Engle in Kansas City to call for a “mass exodus from the demonic influence of the Castro.” Engle described the confrontation os “a confrontation of the Spirit” and called on God to “turn back this evil that is rising” in the fight against “the powers of darkness.”

Christian Dominionism is a harder-core, more violent offshoot of Christian Reconstructionism. Christian Reconstructionists are on record as calling for the biblical punishment of stoning for gays and lesbians.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has identified Joel’s Army as a potentially violent Dominionist group which believes that the United States “should be governed by conservative Christians and a conservative Christian interpretation of biblical law.” Engle was a lead organizer of ”The Call” at San Diego’s Qualcomm Stadium just before the election.
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/11/19/6768

S.F. Gays Practiced Peaceful Defense against Violent Theocrats
Posted November 20th, 2008 by Michael Airhart

After the passage by antigay Californians of antifamily Proposition 8, peaceful rallies for gay equality and the freedom to marry were held in more than 300 U.S. cities.

Religious rightists ignored the peace, unfortunately, and looked for excuses to portray themselves as victims of those who lost the freedom to marry.

Antigay activists pointed to one incident (on video), in which protesters in San Francisco’s Castro district pushed antigay “Christians” out of the neighborhood, accompanied by a heavy police escort. Antigay activists’ complaint: Castro homosexuals are intolerant and inhospitable to peaceful Christian believers.

Ex-gay advocate Warren Throckmorton was among those who pandered to religious-right victimology and baselessly alluded to gay violence. (Throckmorton did, in fairness, acknowledge the hard feelings of those who unsuccessfully defended California’s freedom to marry from people like Throckmorton.

As facts emerge, however, the fairy tale of innocent Christians and intolerant gay people is being not only refuted but reversed.

http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/sf-gays-practiced-peaceful-defense-against-violent-theocrats/

You can apologize for equating me with gay bashers at your convenience. I won't hold my breath...

[readmoreoften]

55. Holy shit, it's JOEL'S ARMY? The violent terrorist organization who think ASHCROFT is liberal?

Seriously, one preacher in this group kicks elderly people in the stomach to get the demons out of them. They advocate the violent overthrow of their enemies, including the mainstream Assembly of God members.

Little old lady, my ass.

[readmoreoften]

47. You stand up for the rights of minorities? What? Like the Klan and the Dominionists?

And by the way you broad brush LGBT DUers when you say that we are resentful because "hil lost". How many fucking times do we have to have polls proving that most LGBT DUers supported KUCINICH? Another subtle attempt to disrupt by painting LGBT people as "bigots".

Nice broad brush. By the way Nazis are a minority too, in case your worried about their feelings getting hurt. You have the most serious case of Stockholm syndrome I've ever seen.

[ronnykmarshall]

62. If you're a thug .... I'm right next to you!!

POWER TO THE TUGS!!!!

[keepCAblue]

8. No, they won't go away...

They have been coming to the Castro every week to pass their judgement on gays and lesbians. These are the same people who would have voted yes on 8. GLBTs were (and still are) feeling outrage at christianists for the harm they have done to our families and relationships on the the night of the 14th. To have the very people who worked so hard to strip away the civil rights of GLBTs come into their own backyard, literally, and begin preaching against the sins of homosexuality was the icing on the cake. BRAVO for the good folks of the Castro for standing up to these outsiders and hypocrites and banning them from their own neighborhood. It is analogous to having people from another state come into CA to take away our rights. Ignoring the out-of-staters didn't do any good either.

[davidinalameda]

25. let them come

why should anyone be afraid of what they have to say-have a discussion with them and prove them wrong

show them that we are just as human as they are-they are more afraid of us than we are of them and what happens, we prove their fears right by attacking them

violence against anyone doesn't solve anything; it just makes more problems and reinforces stereotypes

they are standing on a street corner, not in a voting booth

BIG difference

[donco6]

53. Seriously, dwickham, I've tried talking to these types.

It's as pointless as arguing in the Israel forum. They're not interested in listening to reason . . . they have GOD on their side. And it's a moral obligation for them to stand firm in their beliefs. They're not going to "have a conversation" with anyone. They're there to convert, period.

Not that anyone should ever be physically attacked, but they're just following the same tactics as Westboro Baptist and egging people on to do something foolish so they can be recorded and sued. It's pathetic really.

[readmoreoften]

9. So should they be able to sing a song called "Burn in hell homos" too?

Or is it all about the tone?

If they come into our ghetto and attack our ghetto, they get the violence of the ghetto unleashed upon them.

[davidinalameda]

16. yes they should

just like have the right to go protest in front of any church that we want

[keepCAblue]

17. Oh what a different spin it would get, if a group of skinheads or kkk...

went into a watts or south los angeles 'hood and began preaching and railing against blacks.

the blacks would likely stomp the hell out of the racists and I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the skins or klan agitators.

[readmoreoften]

20. I think I have a right to make them feel so scared of teh gay that they run for the police.

They can yell all they want, but they have no right to be protected from the verbal consequences of their speech including being berated and backed into a dark alley with 100 gay people telling them to STFU.

There is no law that says I need to be nice to bigots and assholes. They scream in my face all the time. Where is the free speech of people in the Castro? Why do I have to silently and stoicly endure harassment?

[davidinalameda]

24. but there are laws that prohibit you from attacking people

speech is one thing; physically attacking someone is another

[readmoreoften]

28. The article doesn't say anything about a physical attack.

It said they were surrounded by people angered by their behavior. Nothing about a physical attack in the article. I've never seen a group of gay people physically attack evangelicals. I do know for a fact that evangelicals attack us. A friend of mine (butch lesbian) was almost beat to death in public in front of a nightclub for standing up for a random straight girl. The crowd of good Christian boys knocked out the bouncer and almost beat my friend to death. This was on a very public street. She was beat into the hospital. Her girlfriend was on top of her body pleading for her life.

I've never seen a crowd of LGBT ever do anything except get in the faces of these bigots and ridicule them. They WISH we'd physically attack them. That's their wet dream. Until then, they'll just pretend that they're threatened.

[davidinalameda]

32. the article does mention a physical attack

Then, Huff said an unidentified man picked up one of the group's Bibles and started walking away with it. Huff said she and her team were holding hands in a circle and continuing to sing "Amazing Grace" when Christine Cloud, 21, stepped out of the circle and asked the man to please return the Bible.

The man hit Cloud over the head with the Bible, shoved her to the ground, and started kicking her legs, Huff said. A couple people from the crowd pulled the man off Cloud, she said

and someone threw a cup of coffee, there was a dispute per the article whether or not it was iced or hot, on one of the evangelicals

and as for your friend, did they ask the attackers their religion or are you just assuming they were Christians?

real Christians don't go beating up people

and these evangelicals are so misguided that I feel sorry for them-they don't follow Jesus' commandments to love God and love their neighbors

but what pisses me off the most is that people who don't know better, or refuse to be educated, take these people as real Christians

they are either ignorant of the fact or ignore the fact that the opposition to Prop 8 had the support of many many MANY Christians, and not just GLBT Christians

the banner that hung from my church was purchased by a straight couple and they purchased bumper stickers, buttons and signs for the entire congregation

Prop 8 would have hurt them but it would have hurt people they love and they did it out of love

[readmoreoften]

38. I agree, it's a bad politics to beat someone with their Bible. But "Real Christians"=load of crap.

I hate this "Real Christian" crap. So, they're "real Christians" when they sing songs in the street but they're "fake Christians" when they beat us up? Maybe the person who literalized the Bible-beating isn't a "real gay" maybe he's just confused. Hell, he could be a straight ally for all we know. They're Christians. They may not be followers of the liberal Jesus, but they pretty much own the concept in the US and that's not the LGBT communities fault and we need not authenticate their relationship to the Lord Jesus when we call them out on their shit.

The people who beat up the lesbian I know were likely influenced by Christian ideology being Texan fratboys. If that's not good enough, another friend had his eye cut open while he was beaten into the hospital by Christians who prayed over him during the beating and recited Bible verses in Dallas. Another young man in Austin was taken to an apartment under the guise of a sexual encounter and forced by three fascists (one was actually a member of the Nazi party) to sodomize himself with various objects while they recited Bible verses and called him a demon. This was covered by the University of Texas paper, but not in the general news. I do not believe they were punished.

I do know that the ARA (Anti-Racist Action), a group of very athletic anti-fascists who are skilled in the martial arts confronted the attackers in the second case and physically challenged them. While I don't think it's a politically bright idea to beat stupid hate-carolers over the heads with their own Bibles, the decline of the physical presence of the Klan, Nazis, and White Christian separatist groups is due in good part to the actual physical challenge the ARA demands.

To put it simply: part of the intimidation and recruitment tactics of hate groups that threaten (including Christian ones) is their appearance of physical strength. When the ARA leaves them bloody and looking weak, their ability to recruit disenfranchised working class youth plummets and that's saved many LGBT lives. So in the case of the ARA, I support what they do wholeheartedly. A lot of these men and women are straight and white and yet some have died fighting fascism in the US and Europe in the name of their LGBT, African American, Jewish, and Latino/a brothers and sisters. I will never, never speak ill of them.

But this whining, passive aggressive tactic is harder to battle. It's excellent rhetoric they've got going there. Christians are always the victims. They're pre-victims. It doesn't matter if we ignore them, because they consider our very existence a threat to their children and their 'way of life.' If we even so much as argue with them in the streets, we're "crazed." And, of course, if someone hits them over the head with a Bible it's a Violent Anti-Christian Apocalypse. Meanwhile, liberal Christians complain that they're not "really Christians" and that we need to be sensitive.

Yes, not all Christians are bad. Many are even standing with us. But the whole theological "who is a real Christian" is not the responsibility of non-Christians. Non-Christians are not obligated to "learn about Christianity" so we can tell real Christians from fake Christians. That's the responsibility of progressive Christians. It's not our duty to keep the torch alive for the Christian religion.

I don't feel sorry for these people. They are not poor mislead souls. How many LGBT kids do they drive to suicide? I feel for progressive Christians and I respect progressive Christians. Y'all have a lot of work to do because they have indeed hijacked the name of your religion. But it's progressive Christianity's job to set the record straight with LGBT folks, not the other way around.

[davidinalameda]

41. being a real Christian is more than actions

or lack of actions

and I disagree with you that it's the job of progressive Christians to set anything straight, your language not mine, with anyone

you have people on here who are just as bad as any conservative Christian when it comes to bashing progressive Christians, and some of the posts on here that do bash Christians would never be allowed to stay if they posters were using the same language against women, blacks, etc but when it comes to Christians, it's fair game

"The people who beat up the lesbian I know were likely influenced by Christian ideology being Texan fratboys" Where the hell do you get that leap of logic?

and what I believe is not passive agressive; if these people think that they're going to get a rise out of someone, they're going to continue to do whatever it is that they're doing; if they realize that people are ignoring them, they'll go away

why do think that Fred Phelps does what he does-people respond to him in the way he wants; he plays people like a drum-he says something hateful and outrageous and people respond

the decline of the Klan and other groups is because they're being sued out of existence not because someone kicked their asses

anyway-you and I have two different views and I'll never accept that answering these kind of people who came to the Castro to sing songs with violence is the answer

it's like saying that if a group of gays went to some neighborhood, then it would be okay for the residents there to beat the crap out of them or kick them out of the neighborhood because it wasn't a gay neighborhood

that's the kind of thinking that lost us Prop 8-no one bothered to reach out to groups like African Americans and Latinos in order to attempt to educate them about our issues

[ohm_moyh_gawd]

44. here to help...

How about getting the aid of SFGMC, or the L/G Chorus, or even the Freedom Band: the next time these people want to come into the Castro to sing their message of "love," run 'em out of town with a choir of booming voices singing show tunes and ABBA. No punches, no bibles flying through the air, just set the fundie fools running down Market Street to the tune of "We Will Rock You."
:headbang:

[readmoreoften]

45. You conveniently ignored the two cases of brutal assaults done in the name of Christianity.

Sorry, Christians are not minority victims or oppressed in any way. If you want to distinguish yourself from those who have hijacked your religion's name, then you should call yourself "Followers of Christ" or "Jesusites" or "Disciples" or maybe you should understand that when people are complaining about Christians they are OBVIOUSLY not complaining about PROGRESSIVE CHRISTIANS, but the VAST MAJORITY of those who call themselves Christian WORLDWIDE. Likewise, the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims are also anti-gay, even though some of those in the Sufi tradition are not. On the other hand, the majority of adherents to Judaism are not anti-gay, although the majority of the small subset of Orthodox Jews are.

I'm pretty educated on the words of Christ, but it's not up to me to defend your God or your religion against a violent sect which most of its members tend to agree. Progressive Christians are a small--tiny--sect within global Christianity. I am in solidarity with MCC and Soulforce and Dignity and all those wonderful liberal organizations within the Christian church. But when Progressive Christians start complaining about how they are "discriminated" against it reminds me of when white people whine about how black people "discriminate against whites" when they fail to say SOME white people have oppressed people of color and SOME white people were slaveowners. It's a self-obsessed and reactionary gesture.

And the comment about "no one bothered to educate groups like African-Americans and Latinos" is nonsense, not to mention patronizing. Queer people of color have been educating people in their communities as long as white LGBTs have. The reality of the situation is--and I'm sure you don't want to hear this--is that the mainstream church has inculcated discrimination against LGBT people in the black community just as it has among wealthy whites.

I wish all the progressive Christians who complain about LGBT people not qualifying every statement about Christianity were more concerned about proselytizing about "the real Jesus" to the violent, homophobic churches instead of berating the victims of its violence about how discriminatory they are to 'real Christians.'

[davidinalameda]

48. which were what?

where did I say that I as a progressive Christian have discriminated against?

but let me just throw out that anti-Prop 8 protesters attacked an old lady-HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THAT HELP OUR CAUSE?

that just shows the world that those on our side can be thugs just like those on the other side?

people stole pro Prop 8 signs; they defaced signs and vandalized private property

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/south_bay&id=6472609

If I wasn't gay and progressive, I would have to wonder if Prop 8 wasn't so bad if the opponents pulled crap like that

face it-as members of the GLBT community, we have to be better than straights; we have to work harder in order to be equal; we have to be above this petty shit because if we don't, we'll be seen as worse than straights

[Zuiderelle]

49. People who are bigoted enough to blanketly consider us "worse than straights" because of a few of us

will never be convinced by us being "better than straights" no matter how many of us try to act the part. How fucking long do you think we should keep trying that tactic? More than the centuries we've already been trying? What do you think will finally convince them? That we monolithically never act aggressively, never act out in anger even just days after our rights are voted away from us?

I admire these people for standing up against hate. And they did it non-violently. Good for them.

[mitchtv]

52. the little old lady is a LIAR

and an agent provocatuer. She deliberately entered an angry anti crowd with her styrofoam crucifix. A week later after countless interviews she appeared at the Saturday march in a neck brace. Hell I'll give her a dime or quarter for the styrofoam idol. Simply put , the police were not doing their jobs, you don't allow pros and cons to mix during a demo. Oh they sure tried to bust someone for the false assault, but after studing KESQ's tapes came up with zip, nothing nada.

[readmoreoften]

54. Which were: a gang rape and beating a man into the hospital while reading Bible verses.

Guess you didn't read my post.

When a LGBT person Matthew Shepard's a hater then I'll worry about being seen as "worse than straights."

[davidinalameda]

59. and you had gay men torture and kill a little boy in Arkansas about the same time

as Matthew Shepherd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Dirkhising

you see stories of gay men who deliberately infect others with HIV

we do have to be better because other members of our community are just as bad as straights when committing crimes

these people are seen as examples of the GLBT community because we don't have our members out there speaking out loudly enough against their behavior

and then we have the bathhouses which only go to strength the straight community's image of gay men as nothing more than sex fiends

the highest ranking gay man in Congress is more remembered for an escort service being run out of his Washington home instead of any meaningful litigation, and let's not forget how the trans community and its allies attacked Barney Frank for not supporting an inclusive ENDA bill

with that kind of infighting, it's no wonder there no unified face when it comes to attacks like Prop 8

[readmoreoften]

63. Are you really equating unsafe sex with beating LGBT people to death?

1) Are ANY of the crimes you mentioned ideologically motivated hate crimes against heterosexuals for being straight?

Yes gay people commit crime. No shit. Do LGBTs go to straight bars in groups, seduce and sodomize gay men, while quoting The Well of Loneliness or Brokeback Mountain? Yeah, I didn't think so. And what the fuck is bug chasing but the total despair of a tiny minority of people who feel so hopelessly rejected that they've given up on life? It is so, so fucked up for you to compare this to hateful supremacists raping LGBT people. It's like saying Nazi Germany is okay because Jews committed crimes too. Or: why get mad at men who think rape is an okay punishment for women? Don't some women kill their babies? Some fucking champion of the underdog, you are. And, uh, haven't straight men also been convicted of deliberately passing HIV on to women. Yeah, they have.

2) And why are you trying to dredge up the false idea that gay men are pedophiles? Why did you make this a GAY killing, not a murder by men who happened to be gay? HAVE YOU COUNTED ALL THE PEDOPHILE MURDERERS WHO RAPE AND KILL LITTLE GIRLS AS "THE CHILD MURDERERS OF THE STRAIGHT COMMUNITY"? Did you compare the numbers? No, you didn't. And what do sociopath pedophiles of any 'orientation' have to do with the ideologically-motivated rape, torture, and murder of adult LGBT people? Not a fucking thing.

3) What are you numbers on these there crimes, sport? Those three crimes against LGBT people were in two liberal areas of Texas cities (Austin and Dallas) in ONE SUMMER. One man forced to sodomize himself by a gang (with a little help) with objects while being read Bible verses. One lesbian beaten by a gang of men on a public street with the men making comments such as "OMG, what the fuck are you? Are you even a woman?" One gay man baited with a ride home, beaten in the street by two men with a female in the car begging for them to stop while they quoted Bible verses and beat him into the hospital after having torn his eye, blinding him. And if that's not enough for you, the same summer, a cop with a rainbow flag sticker was attacked with baseball bats while off duty and out of uniform.

Show me one city where gay people did this to straight people solely because they were straight?

You do realize that your arguments are similar to white people who claim that organized groups that promote segregation are just "ethnic pride groups" and that African-Americans are not completely innocent because some black guy in New Jersey raped a white woman in 1972. That is some sick, fucked up shit, bro.

Your "concern" for the health of hate-mongering little old ladies from Joel's Army--who are probably lying and who absolutely advocate for the execution of gay people in the streets.

But anyway, now that you've established that you have a low opinion of many of your fellow gay men, how about you exempt us lesbians from being tortured by your cherished Dominionists. As a group, I can't think of any lesbians who have raped and murdered a kid or who deliberately infect one another or straight men with HIV. And if you happen to find one in your search for proving how deserving we all are of abuse, does that mean I don't have the right to self-defense? Because some woman who turned out to be a lesbian did something fucked up somewhere?

Do you also cross picket lines because the bosses are a minority and its not right to 'hurt' a company? Please regale me with your deeply humanitarian ethics... or better yet, don't.

[mrbarber]

65. Damn well said ReadMoreOften.

Hopefully one day dwickham will get over his self loathing.

[readmoreoften]

69. I have honestly never encountered such self-loathing. It's freaking me out.

Seriously, this kind of pro-fundie, pro-bigot bullshit is not usual in the lesbian world. Maybe that's because, as women, there's always the concept of having to justifiably defend ourselves from sexual assault? Or maybe I've just never encountered it personally. Eye-opening.

[davidinalameda]

66. you know what

I'm not wasting my time on you

you're just as bad, if not worse as the haters because you've let them turn you into one

[mrbarber]

67. LOL

Okay skippy, whatever you say.

[readmoreoften]

68. Well you better turn your back on most other LGBT people because I guarantee you 95%

agree with me.

No, I don't love people who rape and sodomize gay men while reading bible verses to them.
No, I don't love people who gang attack lesbians for standing up for sexually assaulted straight women.
No, I don't love people who beat people with baseball bats because they have rainbow stickers on their car.

Yes, I believe in self-defense. And someday I may have to defend your sorry ass from the racists, homophobes, and traditional values coalition when they chain you to a fence and beat you death because they read on the internet that even gay men accuse gay men of being "pedophiles"--so it must be true, right?

They've turned you into a hater too: you hate yourself and you hate your own community. You think you love humanity? You don't. You love the idea of non-violence--even if it means other people have to suffer and die for your pristine, detached, and obsequious thinking.

Do I think it's a good idea to hit bigoted old ladies over the head? No, it's a dumb idea on every level. Is it equivalent to gangs of homophobes beating gay men to death because of their ideology? Not on your life.

[davidinalameda]

71. whatever

you're as hopeless and ignorant as those you choose to hate

[readmoreoften]

72. I'm "ignorant" and a "hater"? You're an apologist for fascists, rapists, and killers

hiding beneath a thin veil of liberal bullshit.

You can't even muster up enough truth in yourself to admit that rape, torture, and murder are wrong.

[davidinalameda]

73. rape torture and murder are wrong

you refuse to admit that violence, no matter who does it, is wrong

self-defense is one thing but attacking people out of anger for what they are saying is another

these people were exercising their constitutional rights of free speech and assembly and they were physically attacked for it

you have consistently defended those who did the attacking

you cannot compare this group of thirteen people to those who killed Matthew Shepherd and the others who have killed members of my community for no reason other than the fact they were who they were

you don't win people over by doing crap like this and stuff like this turns public opinion against the GLBT community

[readmoreoften]

74. Hmm. It's a shame that you think Stonewall was unethical.

<<you refuse to admit that violence, no matter who does it, is wrong>>
<<you have consistently defended those who did the attacking>>

No, I have not consistently "defended" hitting an old lady over the head. Obviously, hitting an old lady over the head is about the dumbest thing you can do.

I have consistently doubted that the incident even happened, knowing that Joel's Army are pathological liars and psychotics who advocate that we be murdered in the street according to biblical law. I have not seen the injuries caused by this "rabid gay", and I do not believe for one second that these pathological liars would hesitate to use such an opportunity, if it existed, to cause a media stir.

However, the foundational liberating event of LGBT people in US history was a violent riot that lasted for days-- and included a mob of LGBT people throwing molotov cocktails at police trapped inside the club. Yes, I refuse to admit that violence "whoever does it" is wrong because I don't believe that Stonewall is wrong. All those cops did was enforce the law as written.

That being said, I don't think violence against "little old ladies" is good propaganda. In that sense "it's wrong" (so it's a good thing it probably never happened.) A physical altercation with the male figureheads of the Klan or the Minutemen, on the other hand--so long as the LGBT community won the fight--would absolutely boost our support across the board, humiliate the enemy, and lower its ability to recruit.

For clarification, I also support John Brown and other 19th century slave uprisings, the Zapatistas, and women who escape attackers through violence or stab stalkers to get away. John Brown, from what the Southerners say, killed women and children. The Zapatistas raised arms against a nation who "merely wrote words against them" in the law books.

I'm not a free speech absolutist. I expect that if I walked into a Black neighborhood singing Klan songs and passing out literature that called Black folks "demons", I would absolutely get my ass kicked. Whether that is "right" or "wrong" is trumped by human nature and the logic of human dignity. I don't support it condemn it anymore than I support or condemn wind or rain.

[NMMNG]

70. Actually it's just the reverse

We're not the ones telling gays shut up and to get back under the boot heels of the people who seek endlessly to crush them so we won't hurt their tender religious sensibilities. If you want to play the be the House Homo that's your prerogative. Just don't project your self-loathing onto us. Some of us are sick of playing nice to those who want nothing more than to destroy any way they can.

[Toasterlad]

57. Boo-Fucking-Hoo On a Chocolate-Covered Bible.

You had me at first, then you lost me, with your insistence upon defending the rights of people who gleefully trample the rights of others, your insinuation that Prop 8 passed because of something the GAY COMMUNITY did or did not do (we call that "blaming the victim") and especially your tired christian rhetoric that REAL CHRISTIANS don't hate and abuse gays.

FRED PHELPS IS JUST AS MUCH OF A CHRISTIAN AS YOU ARE. You both believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind. That's all it takes to be a christian. You don't get to separate yourself from them by claiming they're not "true" to christianity. If you don't like them giving christians a much-deserved bad name (are you FAMILIAR with your history?), then do something about it. Where are your "REAL CHRISTIAN" leaders who were speaking out AGAINST Prop 8? I heard some vague support from somewhere or other once during the election, but it was drowned out in an overwhelming christian chorus of hateful bigotry. Despite the many, MANY anti-Prop 8 christians you claim were on "our" side, it seems the vast MAJORITY of devout, loving christians voted for hate and bigotry.

These are YOUR people. These are the people you have aligned yourselves with. You can either admit that your "REAL CHRISTIANS" are a very, very SMALL minority within the church, or you can offer a reasonable explanation for why these many, MANY anti-Prop 8 "REAL CHRISTIANS" are not the ones at the microphones and on TV talking about how gays should have the same rights as all. Why do you let the "fake christians" do all the talking?

No, people should theoretically NOT be physically assaulted - or even verbally harassed - when they're standing on a street corner singing songs. But you know what? We're at fucking WAR. We are at war with the christians - a war that WE DID NOT INITIATE - and for them to come to a street corner in Castro to spread their hateful message SO SOON AFTER THEIR HATEFUL BIGOTRY WAS ACCEPTED AS LAW, is nothing less than a smug, ill-intentioned, hateful ATTACK on gay people. They deserve worse than they got, although they got almost what they wanted...more bad press for the evil homos. So what if it was mostly lies and half-truths.

I do not support violence against ANYBODY, but if you think I'm going to shed a single fucking tear for some poor abused christian fucks who willfully provoked a confrontation in the gay heart of San Francisco, you are out of your Jesus-lovin' mind. And your defense of them HERE and NOW is beyond tacky.

WE ARE AT WAR.

[readmoreoften]

64. No right to self-defense for us, Toasterlad! He doesn't even get upset with murders of LGBT people.

"Everyone commits crime"...

I suppose we're all supposed to be content with being nailed to crosses ourselves--hopefully in one great big display that will rouse the pity of the world. I call bullshit. I'm not a Christian and I'm not going to be content with being martyred for the sins of the world. 51% of this country has no pity for us and very likely never will.

Real progressive Christians make no apologies for Joel's Army. Ever.

[TommyO]

43. Do you believe all of the stories that these anti-gay bigots tell?

[TommyO]

42. We've tried to ignore these assholes

They keep coming back with even more heinous attacks on gay people and our civil rights.

[Duncan Grant]

11. Another example of: "Save me from your followers".

These people are no different from Fred Phelps. The "Amazing Grace" singing-in-circle-of-love shtick is just a more passive approach to the same end: LGBT people are sinners, spiritually bereft and in need of Christian salvation.

Yeah, whatever.

[rasputin5]

2. I wonder if those "christians" are aware that Jesus never said one single word about

homosexuality.

[hvn_nbr_2]

4. Missy Huff? You can't make this stuff up. nt

[LeftCoast]

5. I've seen them there many times

They were so fucking obnoxious.

Imagine any other community tolerating their kind in THEIR neighborhood for so long. Can you picture the KKK being allowed to spill their hatred on a corner like that?

I'm glad they've run them off. Enough of this shit.

[davidinalameda]

21. you're comparing these people to the Klan

how many people have these kids strung up?

[LeftCoast]

34. Hard to say

I do know that there are a lot of homeless kids on the street because these people (or people like them) were there parents. I also know that they are a hate group, so yes, I do compare them to the clan.

[EFerrari]

39. There is likely a great deal of overlap.

Dominionists tend to be white supremacists as well.

[readmoreoften]

46. Southern Poverty Law Center compares them to the Klan as well.

[FreeState]

7. Common sense sometimes escapes people

I was a mormon missionary and we did street contacting but we were not stupid enough to go into an area that we knew we were not welcome in and preach. People have a right to say what ever they want on a public street regarding their faith - however one has to wonder why someone would do such a thing in an area that they know at the time would not be open to their message - they know they are not going to get converts there, makes you wonder why they are there in the first place other than to piss people off.

[Maat]

12. I truly do appreciate your perspective, FreeState.

You can explain to me what many experiences were like.

My husband literally says, "Not interested, thanks," and then shuts the door in the face of the Mormon (or any other) missionary. I can't even imagine what that feels like, door after door. Moreover, how do you do when, deep down, you know that you are gay, and that the head of your church would excommunicate you in a flat second if he knew (or any of the other lesser officials). Like I said, I truly do appreciate your perspective, and send best wishes your way.

[FreeState]

14. Thanks... I have big post Im working on that should be up next week

that explains a lot of what its like to be a gay mormon. I officially left the Church last week - although I am Buddhist now and have considered myself so for nearly 12 years.

I need to edit the post down some because it ended up being so long I fear no one would read it LOL!

[yardwork]

15. I'll read it. I'm looking forward to it.

[bluedawg12]

36. Looking forward to your insights and experiences.

[Maat]

40. I can't wait to read it.

Sorry that this post is late.

We are going on a short trip to Las Vegas next week, but we'll have internet access (Thank the Universe!).

[mrbarber]

10. So the 200 people turned out to be 50....

And all the reported incidents are coming from the mouth of a 21 year old religious zealout who admitted to FASTING so that Prop 8 would pass.

There exaggerating or out and out lying, I have no doubt. They knew exactly what would happen, and are trying to spin it to put the GLBT community in the worse light possible, and to play that "persecution card" they love Oh So much.

[keepCAblue]

13. They are all nothing but a bunch of "Ashley Todds" ...

"Hypocrite" and "liar" don't even begin to describe them...

[readmoreoften]

22. Wealthy white people hysterical about their 'persecution' as a member of the 80% dominant group.

Idiots every one of them.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Strange headline since most LGBTs are Christians

In the early 1960s, Rev. Perry was defrocked as a clergyperson by a Pentecostal denomination because of his homosexuality. He spent the next several years struggling to reconcile his sexuality and his Christian spirituality.

In Part I, Rev. Perry describes the events that preceded the first worship MCC service:

A failed romance.
An attempted suicide.
A reconnection with God.
An unexpected prophecy.
And the birth of a dream…

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_Us&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=662



I am Jewish, but I am fortunate to have several MCCers among my closest and dearest friends.

[readmoreoften]

23. I'm not sure 'most' LGBTs are anything. Considering that China has the largest population.

Maybe 'most' LGBTs in the US are Christian, but, frankly, I'm not even sure about that. Most likely, most LGBTs in Latin America are Catholic. That much I'll concede.

[GreenFiles]

27. GO CASTRO!

Those fundie fools knew what they were doing. However I'm pretty sure they didn't know what they were getting themselves into.


Stay the fuck outta my neighborhood!

[xchrom]

35. this went as it should have. nt

[donco6]

50. What I always think is interesting . . .

. . . is that these fundie types never think to go sing hymns against . . . oh . . . selfishness at a Mall, gluttony at a Food Court, pride at a sporting event. No, they gotta go save the gays. Because, you know, they're like the absolute WORST sinners ever.

Sheesh.

[mitchtv]

51. sorry I missed it

let them go elsewhere.

[Ian David]

56. Big on balls, small on brains. n/t

[RetiredTrotskyite]

58. Yanno...

If these people weren't always up in our business, telling us how to live, maybe there wouldn't have been a problem. If you don't approve of the "gay lifesyle", then stay the HELL out of the Castro!

I aam fed-up with Christians and other fundies trying to shove their nonsense down our throats. If I wanted to be a Christian, I know where the nearest church is. Since it is Sunday and I am not there, it's a fair assumption that Christianity is not for me.

[Jamastiene]

60. The weird thing about this is I cannot even picture it.

As pissed off as we are, we are still a nonviolent group of people for the most part. Even the most ardent post Prop 8 protests have been peaceful.

Those idiots go into a community that even this rural NC dweller knows is an actual gay community and try that shit? Then they claim teh gays attacked them?

This is their new tactic to try to make us look bad?
It didn't work.

It's one thing when your bullshit meter merely goes off and an entirely different thing when it goes off and starts smoking because the bullshit is so deep it shorts the circuitry. Those repairs could become costly.

I guess I'm going to have to start using my electronics knowledge to recalibrate everyone's Bullshit Meters so they can measure bullshit that outlandish without "pegging the needle."

[ronnykmarshall]

61. RIGHT ON!!!

These assholes knew JUST what they were doing. Come into OUR hood while we are hurting like hell and then bitch about it?

Please.

I am SOOOOOOOOO fucking sorry. But The Castro is OUR place.

WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT!!