The biggest losers last night.

[Chovexani]

Black queers, as usual. Not only did our rights get taken away too, we have the pleasure of dealing with racism out of the LGBT community during the subsequent blame game.

I am not making excuses for black bigots, make no mistake about that. I am not defending the bigotry in the black community--why the fuck should I when I've been hurt by it and have it in my own family. But on this board and others I'm seeing a lot of hateful generalizations being made, and as usual, no acknowledgment that black LGBT were hurt by this too, because this blacks vs. teh gays thing some people love to push never acknowledges our existence. I see no acknowledgment of the many black and brown folks who worked their ass off to fight Prop 8 and the other props. Rev. Wright's much-maligned church? Is for gay rights. As are many black churches--not all blacks are bible-thumping evangelical hatemongers or Nation of Islam types. Black religious minorities are for LGBT rights across the board. Coretta Scott-King was for marriage equality (granted, one of the daughters isn't, but hey there's one in every family). As are Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the CBC and pretty much every major black leader. As to why these folks didn't speak up--I wish they had. I also wish Rosie O'Donnell and a whole lot of white people spoke up too. And brown and yellow and red people too. Maybe I could have still been the maid of honor for a couple of my friends if they had.

You know what else I'm fucking sick of? White LGBT insinuating that black bigotry is somehow worse than white bigotry because "we should know better because of our history". Fuck that noise. Irish people ought to fucking know better because of THEIR history in this country. And Italians. And Mormons, especially. What the fuck is white people's excuse for hating queers, then?

Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. Why black bigots are somehow held to a higher standard than white bigots is beyond me. Oh wait, I know, it's racism.

I know y'all are upset. I'm upset too, like I said, my rights were taken away too. But in the rush to find someone to blame don't resort to trashing the black community. I'm heartbroken that so many blacks voted for Prop 8 but that's because it was a reminder of how much my own people can hate me. It's the same reason why I'm so heartbroken that so many Dems voted for it. Don't tar all blacks with the same brush, though. It's really rubbing salt in the wound for black LGBT.

[AspenRose]

1. Well said.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. When all people are truly free...

Then all people will be truly free. No more excuses for why some cannot be free.

This breeder's heart aches for all of you. Deeply.

[Chovexani]

I love and appreciate you

And all the straight allies. There are a lot of good people here, and I think sometimes we forget that when the troglodytes are flinging shit all over the place.

:hug:

[jonnyblitz]

3. well, the common thread of the bigots of all races,nationalities, etc

seems to be their religion. I blame THAT mostly which doesn't sit well with many. being white, all i can do is respect your perspective because i can never know what it is like to be in your racial shoes. you know i love you. :P :hug:

[Chovexani]

11. I'm beyond livid with the Mormon church

It's those SOBs who are really to blame for all this. They've drawn in a tax-free fortune and hate EVERYONE and use their ill gotten gains to torture the rest of us. Hell according to their "religion" black folks were cursed up till like, the 70s.

When I lived in Arizona my local polling place was a Mormon temple. I felt dirty every time I walked into that creepy joint.

[bliss_eternal]

45. I just learned about this last night....

...but I still don't understand (entirely) their involvement. How the hell did they get involved in something that doesn't involve their state?

Talk about control issues. :eyes:

[rogue emissary]

4. You make an excellent point.

One of the biggest groups that came out and spent millions of dollars for hate was the Mormons. Only a few decades ago the US government considered them a cult. Yet very few poster are pointing the figures at them injecting their money to pass this ballot measure.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. i blame religion. not black nor poor whites but the religion that makes them bigots

[grace0418]

8. I agree. I know people find comfort in religion and there are plenty of people who

actually believe the whole "love God, love your neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged" thing, and I'm fine with that. But far too many religious "leaders" use their influence to take followers down the path of hate and bigotry. I'm tired of people doing hateful things in the name of their god.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. yes,i will be more specific. religious leaders who incite intolerance

and bigotry towards minorities and women.

[Chovexani]

12. Talibornagain religion.

I make a distinction. 'Cause my religion would just love to marry LGBT folks but we're not allowed to by the government.

Freedom of religion my ass.

[Omnibus]

16. Out of curiousity, what religion do you belong to?

Also, if your religion wants to marry LGBT folks, maybe YOUR RELIGION could sue the government for violating their First Amendment rights.

I wonder if something like that has been tried?

[Chovexani]

17. I'm Pagan. We're just barely trying to get our own rights.

Hell most people don't even consider us a real religion, up to and including GWB. We only just won the right to have one of our symbols allowed on tombstones of Pagan soldiers, after a long costly fight.

I know a lot of Pagans were fighting against prop 8, there are a LOT of LGBT among us (I would say at least 40%, though that number is purely out of my ass). Problem is we're inherently non-organized (we don't have a central governing body or dogma, by design) so trying to get us together on any issue is like herding cats.

[bliss_eternal]

44. because you are intelligent...

...and can draw lines and see what the source is. You are also a woman of color, and know what it's like on that level, too. Unfortunately, too many get caught up in doing what our media does....blaming the brown people.

[funkybug]

6. Don't forget about those other voters

I've heard countless stories of life-long republicans, knee deep in the evangelical base of conservatism, turning their backs on their party and casting a vote for Obama out of fear of a Palin administration. Hell, this morning I found out my evangelical ex-mother-in-law from Indiana voted for Obama.

When the bible belt turns blue, it only means they saw what we saw in Obama (the promise of hope). But it doesn't mean they put aside their ignorance on other issues.

I'm so sorrowful about this turn of events ... how anything could make me sad today is beyond me, but Prop 8 (and Amendment 2 in Florida) have reminded me that while we've come so far, we've not come far enough. We won the house, we put a fork in racial inequality ... but we still have fears to fight in America.

[Chovexani]

14. I agree, but

I think it's just a little bit naive to think all or even most of the Dems who voted yes on H8 were new converts. This party has a long sorry history with regards to standing up for LGBT rights.

Yes, we're much better than Repukes on the issues, but last night should erase any doubt that Dems are any less bigoted than Repukes.

[Zuiderelle]

7. You are right. I don't see this as a black against GLBT issue, but I do see some who do.

I do see it as ironic that Americans, black, white, latino, whatever, have finally found it right to elect a black man as President, while at the same time voting away GLBT rights.

It's ALL Americans at fault, and more white than black, no doubt. Our rights should not be left to ANYONE's vote.

It's doubly difficult for you, I know, that you get blamed as a black person for what is hurting you as a glbt person. What a fucked up twisted knot this is.

:hug:

I don't blame blacks for this. I blame straight people who don't care, or don't understand, or simply hate us. They come in all colors.

[Chovexani]

21. That is the damn truth.

I blame straight people who don't care, or don't understand, or simply hate us. They come in all colors.

Sing it sister.

[gaspee]

9. I agree

Even though I feel betrayed by the 70/30 yes vote from the AA community. I feel hurt, betrayed and downright disappointed. I feel for my AA brothers and sisters who are maligned in their community and within their own families.

One of the most beautiful souls I have ever met in my life was an ex of mine (we ended on good terms and still are) who is from a deeply religious, African American family in TN. When she came out to her family at 15 years old, she was disowned and put out on the streets. She was suicidal (as I"m sure you can imagine.)

That beautiful soul (and beautiful on the outside) nearly took her own life at 15 years old and I'm thankful she didn't. The world would be a lesser place without her in it.

So you are right, you get it from within and without. I'm sorry. I can't change the betrayal I feel toward AA democrats though. Logically, I know I shouldn't feel quite so betrayed but I do. I will get over it.

What we need to do is work with our AA brothers and sisters to bring change from within the community, though I don't feel the outreach is exactly welcome.

I really don't know what to do about it and I really, really feel for the youngsters who have to deal with coming out to their families and risk alienation from them. LGBT kids are at risk, but kids in certain communities are at the most risk. I wish there was more I could do besides give money to charity.

[bliss_eternal]

46. Excuse me.

Quote:
I can't change the betrayal I feel toward AA democrats though. What we need to do is work with our AA brothers and sisters to bring change from within the community, though I don't feel the outreach is exactly welcome.

So you expect to be rejected by AA's and AA democrats?

Your words spit in the face of every AA democrat that voted against that proposition--whether they are reflected in your polls or not.

Your comments also betray the existence of AA democrats that defend the rights of glbt on this very board. I guess because they weren't polled they don't mean anything to you.

You aren't the only one with "expectations or disappointments."
I would expect my feminist sisters to not buy into divisive arguments, or to broad brush people based on race. I might be inclined to expect feminists to have some compassion and sensitivity when they post on a thread where an african american glbt democrat is expressing her pain.

You've made it quite clear you don't like people slurring your gender or making assumptions about you based on sex. Yet here you are doing just that regarding ethnicity.

Ever wonder why polls are so narrowly focused, and only group people based on sex and race? Why any race outside of latin, black and asian is "other"?

Good to see the media's work to keep us all divided is working so well on you. :eyes:

[Beregond2]

13. I hear you.

As a white gay man, it has been particularly difficult to deal with bigotry from blacks, who of all people should be above that. But it is wrong to tar all blacks with that brush, and also to not acknowledge the special pain that causes for black gay people.

[dbackjon]

15. Is it racism to point out that

70% of blacks voted yes, 51% of Latinos, and 47% of whites and Asians voted yes?


There is plenty of blame for the passage of Prop H8 - LDS, evangelicals, complacency by the GLBT community, and yes, deep-seated homophobia in the black community. If we try to sweep it under the carpet, and focus all blame on the LDS, catholics, etc, then it will remain. Only by bringing it to the spotlight can it be worked on.\\


Obviously, we have allies in the 30% of the black community that voted NO. How do we get the other 70% on our side?

[Chovexani]

18. It's not racism to point that out, that's just the facts

It's the commentary around those facts that has been racist. The idea that black bigotry is worse than white bigotry is racist.

Blaming them solely and saying they should know better because we used to be slaves or some other bullshit is not the way to do it, I can guarantee you. We win over that 70% by acknowledging the fact there are a hell of a lot of LGBT of color and recruiting us to reach out to our families and communities. How many No on 8 ads featured blacks and Latin@s? I don't live in Cali so I wasn't subject to the ads first hand but I can't find any on YouTube, and someone else mentioned they only started showing one towards the very end.

From what I've seen and heard the No on 8 group was disorganized as hell and did not really attempt to engage PoC. It pretty much played into the hateful, incorrect stereotypes that a lot of straight blacks have about the LGBT community, that it is entirely made up of well-off white people trying to hitch themselves onto the civil rights struggle and get "special rights". You and I know that is bullshit but when a lot of straight blacks think of "the gays" they don't think of the swishy, so closeted he's damn near asexual choir director at their church, or their auntie who never got married but has had a female "roommate" since they were kids, they think of rich white people on TV and ask themselves why these people feel so persecuted. I would have loved to see more working class LGBT in the ads, LGBT of color and such. I would have loved to see black pastors, MCC pastors who are for marriage equality in those ads. There is a segment of the black community that is just plain lost to Talibornagain madness and who we'll never win over--they're just the Dobson set with more melanin. But the more moderate folks I think could be won over if they could see that it's some of their own people who are suffering from things like Prop 8, and not every LGBT person is rich and white like Ellen. And sad to say it's not white LGBT folks who are going to win them over. Culture wise we can have the most impact. All I can think of is during the McClurkin mess, the Obama campaign's response was to send a white gay pastor to speak to the crowd. That right there told me Obama had no LGBT of color advising him.

I think a big problem is that many black LGBT don't necessarily identify with the LGBT community, and feel like it just doesn't give a shit about us or our issues so some of us don't really feel like dealing with y'all. That's unfortunate and really needs to change. I don't know what the answer is aside from more outreach. But it won't change as long as this kind of crap keeps getting flung around.

[readmoreoften]

28. The LGBT mainstream has tried too hard to win over America by looking "respectable" and "mediagenic"

Those words are bullshit speak for white, rich, and attractive. It is a DISASTROUS concept. The other problem is the very real effects of poverty in the LGBT world.

Why do rich L/G people portray rich, lipsuctioned L/G people to win over upper middle class white people? Because that's the peer group of those who OWN THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION. Poor and working class whites aren't up there on the TV either. In fact average folks of all stripes aren't on TV. Film and video production is cost prohibitive to poor and working class people and the wealthy have never represented our interests LGBT or otherwise. This tactical error has cost us much politically.

Maybe we need to start a grassroots media campaign of diverse LGBT people who've been hurt, not just movie stars and pop culture icons. The revolution will not be televised. Never has, never will be.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chovexani]

20. Are you sorely disappointed with the Mormon community?

They've experienced first hand more discrimination than any other religious group in this country, except Jews. They were literally run out of upstate NY, and murdered across the country. They were forced to give up a cherished belief by the government.

Yet they poured tens of millions of dollars into fighting LGBT rights, not just in California but across the country, wherever there are anti-gay measures, and vote in much higher margins against these initiatives than any other group including blacks. Where is your outrage against them and their "hypocrisy"? Why are they not held to a higher standard?

Spare me your fucking outrage. Yes, if you think the black community is somehow more morally accountable than whites, you're a goddamn racist, no matter how many black friends you have and no matter how much you've worked for civil rights, Miss Millie. "Don't you people know what we've done for you" is racist, and I will call you on it all day long. Be angry, but be angry at bigotry, not at a race or community of people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. no, not disapointed in mormons largely because of lowered expectations

and because i dont support mormon rights.


but i do support rights that traditionally are considered rights that help the black community (ex: affirmative action, low income housing, welfare, lower prison terms, removing racial prejucide from sentencing, etc) some of these rights are unfairly considered black rights and some are not. either way, i dont think its racist to hold black people as accountable to my rights as i am to theirs.

i also think indians in india are homophobic. they need to grow up. this doesnt make me anti-indian.

[Chovexani]

23. I think you're misunderstanding me

I'm not saying its racist to call black folks out on homophobia--quite the contrary. Again, I've sort of done that my whole life just by existing. I think black bigots need to grow up too.

What I've got a problem with is the idea that black bigots are somehow worse than every other shade of bigot because blacks have a larger moral obligation than whites, that our burden is somehow greater than every other group's. I'm sorry but that is bullshit and to me it is a cop out for whites to not deal with their own homophobia. That mentality also leads to some of the crap I've seen stated in the wake of last night, like on one site a white lesbian saying we should put slavery to a vote to "teach them a lesson". No one seems to feel the need to call out other entire communities like that.

Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry, it does not matter where it comes from, it all sucks, it's all painful and terrible and needs to be fought against. Race isn't the problem anyway, it's hateful religious beliefs that's the common factor in all this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. ahh i see. yeah, i agree.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chovexani]

29. Go piss up a fucking rope, Miss Millie.

Read my goddamn post. I am not defending black bigotry. Let me write that in caps since you can't seem to be able to fucking read properly. I AM NOT DEFENDING BLACK BIGOTRY. Do I have to bust out crayons and draw it for you? NOT. DEFENDING. BLACK. BIGOTRY.

And no, I'm not comparing apples and oranges, and the fact that you think I am tells me you have even less of a clue about Mormons than you do about black folks. "Mormon" is not just a religion, it's an entire culture and way of life. I lived in Arizona for 2 1/2 years down the street from a Mormon temple, and worked with a lot of Mormons and ex-Mormons. No, it's not a racial identity--but it's the closest thing to one that you can possibly get without involving pigmentation. They have their own jargon and language, hell they even have their own foods. They're extremely xenophobic and insular. Living in a Mormon community as a non-Mormon is a lot like a Westerner living in Japan.

They're also overwhelmingly white and socially conservative, by design. Where is your fucking outrage at them, Miss Millie? Hell they're white, they're your people, why aren't you jumping on them the way you're jumping on blacks. Because you haven't "done so much for those people"? Huh.

Religious extremism is the problem, not black people, not white people, not yellow and red people. I'm not sure how much more I can say this before y'all understand this. Liberal religious people of every color fought this thing. Talibornagains of every color supported it. I also find this "we've done so much for you people" Miss Millieism to be laughable anyway, considering how lilywhite the majority of LGBT organizations are and just how many white LGBTs I've heard wondering why anti-racism, anti-sexism and anti-classism should be a part of the movement because "those aren't our concerns". That is not the case on DU but I have seen that mentality at work all over the damn place among people who--surprise surprise--"ought to know better".

[bliss_eternal]

52. With all due respect....

...I'm not at all sure where you are getting the information that the "black community" are the one's writing hate into the CA constitution. When did the black community alone initiate these hateful legislations?

Am I imagining things, or are those in CA government primarily "not black." Of the CA senators and governors I'm aware of, they support equality (Maxine Waters comes to mind).

I seem to recall it was a born again, caucasian president from Texas that held a press conference to share his desire to write hate into the US consititution, in an effort to appeal to his evangelical base of supporters. Individual states decided to follow suit.

There would not be an Alan Keyes, a Colin Powell or a Condeleeza Rice if all blacks believed and voted exactly the same way. Nor would there be a Reverend Al Sharpton, who has made a concentrated effort to educate other religious blacks that this is a civil rights issue, nothing more or less.

It is certainly your right to see all blacks in one way. But how is that any different than what you are accusing an entire culture of? You are human in that you have fallen for the ploy of the powers that be--to keep people divided, based on superficial differences. If all the minorities are fighting over their piece of the pie, no one's paying attention while those in power fuck everyone over. The great fear is that all minorities will join together, and those in power will become the minority.

There are many good, decent people within the culture that want equality for all. You will never get to see them while you're so focused on those that don't support you.

[bliss_eternal]

49. It's racist to depend on those elements...

...and to take nothing else about the cultures that voted into consideration. Most of today's polls, are racially biased and narrowly focused. They are also archaic, as most guidelines for them were developed when the only people in the usa fit into the categories of black, latino, asian and white. Last I checked, the world was far more diverse than this.

I also believe people are shaped by much more than the color of their skin. I don't know anyone that votes based on what they look like, nor according to culture. There are progressive, caucasians and conservative caucasians and lots of variables in between. So clearly, caucasians don't all have the same beliefs or vote the same way. Yet people continue to insist there's such a thing as a "black" or "latin" vote. Everyone is individual and votes as such.

So is it racist? Yes. I think so, and those that insist upon adhering to such standards--or use them as some sort of gauge to judge, need to think about that, in my opinion.

[readmoreoften]

25. The idea that there are separate categories of "black" and "gay" is racist and homophobic in itself

It's as ridiculous as saying "blacks" and "democrats" or "blacks" and "the elderly." Imagine the absurdity of saying, "You have to understand, we can fight for working class Black folks, but first we have to make sure the elderly can afford medications." Or saying "Let's face it: the majority of elderly people in America are white because the majority of Americans are white. Aging is largely a white issue. Right now, we need to be protecting the rights of Black folks."

The adjectives of "black" "elderly" "female" "gay" "democrat" are not all separate communities. Identifying gay people with upper-middle class white "gayborhoods" is as ridiculous as imagining that elderly people are generally those who live in upper-middle class white 'active lifestyle' communities.

The phenomenon of social conservatives in the Black community voting against the rights of all gay people of all ages and ethnicities is troubling because of the percentages. It really has less to do with "should know better" and more to do with "what is to be done". The question that is not asked nearly enough (in my opinion) by non-black LGBTs is "what can LGBT folks who are not black do as allies of black LGBT folks?" My feeling is that there is some confusion as to whether this question is racist or not in itself. My belief is that the answer lies in non-black (but particularly white) LGBTs asking the question: "what can LGBT folks who are not black do as allies of ALL black folks?"

Last night I was exhilarated but my heart was broken for black LGBT Americans most of all. We're all in this together for real. And we all need each other more than we know to keep these horrible RW fascists in place.

[Chovexani]

31. Yes, yes, yes.

Thank you for posting this. You are probably the first person to ask those questions. And the thing is, hearts and minds can't be won until those questions are asked. So many people don't understand intersectionality it's not even funny.

I said this upthread but this whole conversation really feels like a throwback to the McClurkin debacle for me. LGBT people of color and our straight allies know how to talk to our communities best, because we've grown up in them. In a way we're the perfect ambassadors because we've got a foot in both communities. Getting whites to lecture blacks about tolerance just does not go over well, and could very well alienate people that could potentially be allies. I think where No on 8 made its biggest mistake was not doing enough outreach to communities of color, both LGBT and straight allies. Granted given the level of organizational cluelessness in general with that campaign I'm not sure if that was asking too much. But the ads and nearly all of the people who were front and center were upper middle class whites.

There is a very real misconception that LGBT concerns are not black concerns, because "gays are all rich, privileged white people". Part of that is the fault of black LGBT people not being as out and visible as we chould be, and I accept that--we have a lot of work we need to do internally, and we need to organize better. But at the same time, nearly all the images of LGBT people in the media are rich, privileged white people. I loved Queer as Folk for the campy soap it was, but where were the people of color on that show? (Hell, they barely gave the lesbians screen time half the time) The L Word is even worse, despite one of the major characters being a woman of color. The only time a non-straight black is ever seen on TV is some Oprah scare report or Law & Order episode on down low brothers spreading HIV to innocent straight women.

By not acknowledging intersectionality and demonizing the entire black community as ignorant homophobes, it further renders us invisible, and you play right into the Othering that contributes to said homophobia. Also too often black LGBT people are asked to leave our concerns at the door when fighting for specifically LGBT issues and if we bring up race we're being too sensitive and making mountains out of molehills and "don't you know what we've done for you people" (look right here on this thread, and elsewhere on DU for example). That does not do a whole lot to encourage black LGBT to get involved with the greater LGBT community. Hell, I've identified with the LGBT community as a whole ever since I came out, and have had no problems often being the only black person at a meeting or gathering, but with the posts I've seen today I definitely understand where my more separatist friends are coming from.

[Prism]

26. I hope I don't word this too inartfully

I think part of the outrage you're being unfortunately side-swiped by boils down to one thing. At the end of the day, the gay community voted overwhelmingly for the first African-American President, while the black community overwhelmingly slapped us in the face. It stings.

You have a very good point in that the raw numbers game is the real story here. 70% of the African American community does not come close to the same number of votes 45% of the white population wields. So we all, no matter what communities we belong to, have a lot of work to do. The black community didn't "lose this" for us. Many people of every different color, religion, and ideology participated in stealing away our rights, and losing sight of that fact is unnecessarily hurtful and divisive.

I will say one remark in the GD:P threads that left me wincing and feeling the first stirrings of outrage was when a poster blamed the racism of white GLBTs for why the African-American community rebuked us. The poster discussed how the GLBT movement has ignored AA issues and concerns, and that we somehow deserve blame for our own second class status.

But in my mind, the GLBT community is the smaller population here. We're, what, 4-5% of the population vs. roughly 13% for AAs? Why is the onus on us to reach out and be especially concerned about AA community issues when they have not shown us the same consideration? It would be outrageous for any white person to approach a black individual and say, "You know, if you only cared about white people more, perhaps we would be more supportive of you." While I do agree we must all be mindful that we should be mutually supportive of each other - it's what good Americans do - I feel that much of the attitudes expressed today are placing the burden squarely on GLBT shoulders to be almost Christ-like when they're repeatedly slapped in the face.

In a democracy, the larger community has a moral obligation to ensure the rights of the smaller communities. And yet, with this issue, the sharpness of the double-edged sword of identity politics always seems to put the gay community at fault - no matter what we do, no matter who we support, no matter that we just overwhelmingly affirmed the idea that African-Americans deserve and have the right to reach the highest positions and greatest accomplishments that our nation has to offer.

It's still all somehow our fault.

That's part of the sentiment I'm seeing expressed on DU today, and it's maddening to me.

To be blunt and honest, I really don't want to read a bunch of comments blaming GLBT racism, when African-American homophobia was a stronger and more virulent power in this election.

In short, I'm tired of watching everyone blame the victim. I'm tired of seeing the intimation that we were, more or less, "asking for it".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. this is how i feel almost exactly.

[Chovexani]

32. *You* think it stings?

Try being a queer black woman today. I guarantee it hurts worse than you could ever dream of. Imagine seeing 70% of your own people thinking you should be a second class citizen and not even exist. My own aunt voted Yes on that bullshit, and told me point blank I betrayed "our people" when I threw my lot in with "the gays" and shirked my responsibility to marry a good black man and have good black babies and that I needed Jesus to "make me whole". The kind of shit I have been hearing for 10+ years.

You could never on your worse day even imagine that kind of pain. You say you're tired of people blaming the victim but that's exactly what you're doing with this nonsense. I don't need white people lecturing me about black homophobia when I've suffered from it more than you ever could in your wildest dreams. You've been a victim of black homophobia at the polls, and that's horrible. But I've been a victim of it at the dinner table, at church, and at the family reunion. For my whole life.

No, I don't think Prop 8 passing is the fault of LGBTs, of any race. It's the fault of bigots and homophobes and militant breeders. I've called out posters for saying that crap. But at the same time, don't pretend that the greater LGBT community is not racist. There is a reason our community is so segregated, and why blacks have our own Pride events and such. Many, many LGBT of color do not feel welcome in the big orgs, and community meetings and such, just as a lot of people of color in general don't feel welcome in a lot of the progressive organizations. I have done everything in my power to be visible and fight that kind of thing, but it's unbelievably hard. I can't exactly go to Militant black LGBT woman #2 and say "really, we need to be up in there being heard" when no one cares to listen.

The question y'all need to be asking is not why are so many black people homophobes, that's a real simple answer, it's 99% religion with 1% ingrained cultural shit sprinkled on top. The question you need to be asking is, "how can we aid the black people in our own community in fighting this kind of homophobia?"

That question never gets asked. It's always framed as "blacks vs gays", "why are THEY like that", etc. Always. And that's why we'll never get anywhere.

[Prism]

34. Oppression is not a contest

And that is an impulse and argument I try to resist in discussions about identity politics. We're all in this together. That is partially what is really bothering me today, that the contest for the hierarchy is in full swing. "Oh yeah? Well gay racism is worse than black homophobia!" Not only is it divisive, but it is deeply offensive. It is especially offensive in this election, and it's what has really gotten to me today.

We all suffer our own pain for who we are. As an African-American GLBTer, your pain and experiences won't be the same as my experiences as a GLBTer from a devoutly Catholic environment. While you feel alienated by a gay movement that is predominantly white, I feel alienated by a gay movement that is largely intolerant of any opinion that veers away from a very strictly delineated ideology. I make no secret I'm not the most progressive individual in the world. Vote for Democrats? Certainly. But I differ from the prevailing views of the community on many different attitudes, political positions, and social framing. Mentioning my beliefs is usually an engraved invitation to being cast out. When people discuss the gay community, I often feel it has nothing to do with me. Where does one go when their views in the community are unwelcome, but neither are they a gay Republican? You usually have to create your own little social and political world, and I think black GLBTers face a similar dilemma.

We have a lot of work ahead of us, and we need to learn how to make inroads into all kinds of communities, racial, religious, and ideological. We do have to figure out where communities intersect, and how our individual and collective strengths can be alchemized into a kind of universal example.

But this morning, being lectured on racism after a community just gave unwavering support for an African-American president? It's a bit much to take, right now.

Tomorrow maybe I'll spend a lot more time wondering how I'm part of the problem. But today, I'm not.

[Chovexani]

35. Read my post. Please.

I am not saying you are part of the problem. Being called out on your privilege is not an "oppression contest", nor is it trying to blame you for anything. It's stating reality. We can't fix problems without knowing what we're dealing with.

If I'm not being clear enough, Pam and someone else on her blog put it better than I ever could. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8013

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8009

[Prism]

43. I do understand what you're saying

I pointed out in an earlier response that a numbers game still means that far more white voters supported the proposition than black voters. That's simply a function of the population numbers. So, no, the black community is not a "special" problem that demands our immediate attention before we achieve equality. We have to be everywhere.

I think you and I are arguing two different concerns. I think, if I've read you correctly, you're concerned that not only were you hit by the defeat of Proposition 8, but you're also a member of the community that is now taking the brunt of recriminations for why it failed. Believe me, I know that sucks, I do. It's similar on my end. Not only do I not have equality, but I live with the knowledge my family and the community I grew up in plays no small part in that. You feel beseiged from all sides.

I think we're on the same page about what our problems are and what we need to do to improve our message.

But let's put it this way. Today, on this specific day, when the gay community turned out in droves to help shatter the barriers of bigotry at the highest levels in our country, it does hurt to find out that our support, sweat, and tears were not returned in kind. Not that we should ever expect anything in return. People should always do the right thing because it is the right thing. But that doesn't mean it doesn't cut when support isn't returned. And to then be told we should have reached out further to a community that was not reaching towards us at all is a bit too much salt in the immediate wound.

Yes, we do need to strategize and come up with better ways to break down boundaries and behave as one big, diverse community. We do have to do a better job. I recognize that.

[freestyle]

36. I cited religion as the #1 reason, and it is.

As someone who is Black, Gay, and with a marriage recognized in only a few states, I know from second class. But, the point I was attempting to make in bringing up the perceived, and sometimes all too real, racism among white GLBT communities is that winning means reaching out to everyone. You may not get them, but you must at least try. No asks for or deserves discrimination. But, if a campaign for GLBT equality ends up looking like a campaign for Abercrombie and Fitch, then someone screwed up big time and we need to make sure it does not happen again. Winning coalitions don't just happen. They take work, and the works begins more than a few months before an election.

[Prism]

40. On this, we're agreed.

[freestyle]

33. Thanks for writing that. Black GLBT people are still ignored.

You wrote, far better than I could I have, what I have been thinking. Thanks.

[Chovexani]

38. I was thinking about you when I wrote that

Sometimes it feels like we're beating our heads against the wall. But I keep doing it cause really what other choice do we have?

One thing I am feeling good about is NY. We just removed the last obstacle to marriage equality in our state, and that is taking back the State Senate from GOP control.

Oh, heh, yeah did I mention our biggest straight ally in the state of NY for marriage equality is a black man by the name of Gov. David Patterson. I would laugh if I didn't feel like crying.

[TechBear_Seattle]

37. I am trying very hard not to be racist

We have an interracial marriage in our own family; I have seen first hand what harm it can do.

That does not make me any less baffled at how a group of people who remain the target of so much discrimination themselves would support discrimination against others, and in such numbers. There truly is a pecking order of second-class citizens, and the Proposition 8 vote shows very clearly who is at the bottom.

[Chovexani]

41. Why is it so hard to understand? It's human nature.

It's no different to why a lot of G&L openly hate the B&T and are always trying to throw us under the bus to further their aims. Or why American Indian tribes vote to purge the blacks from their midsts. Or why some Israelis hate Palestinians.

We're a clannish species by nature and are shockingly lacking in empathy when we feel, rightfully or not, like our turf is under attack by the Other. It's sad and disgusting but it's the story of the species. That's the reptilian impulse we fight against everyday when we fight for civil rights, no matter what the rights are or who they're for.

It's a really cynical way of looking at things, granted, but I have yet to be proven wrong. :(

[NorthernSpy]

48. And some people are trying very hard not to be homophobic...

TechBear_Seattle:

We have an interracial marriage in our own family; I have seen first hand what harm it can do.

How about all those straights who point to the "harm" associated with homosexuality as the reason for the homophobia that they claim to be struggling oh-so-valiantly against? You should totally be able to sympathize with them, no?


:eyes:

[TechBear_Seattle]

50. Oh, for crying out loud....

I have seen first hand what harm racism can do. Better?

My mom's cousin married a black man. As far back as I can remember, Henry was welcomed with the same love and respect as every other spouse (and that was a lot.) I still remember being six years old when his family and ours had gone to the beach, and crying because some people were being so mean to him and his children, to my family.

So back off, ok?

[KitchenWitch]

39. I am sorry that my efforts were not enough.

[Chovexani]

42. I know you tried.

Hell I'm sorry my efforts weren't enough. I don't live in Cali but I have family there and I really tried to work on them. My cousin voted no but my aunt voted yes. :(

[Jamastiene]

47. Can we blame the black people who voted against us and

thank the ones who votes for our rights? Is that fair enough? Of course, if we really do that, across the board, race goes out the window anyhow. :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

53. Why not...?

If you also take the time to do the same w/all other cultures involved in this decision, and take into consideration this is broader than just black and white. ;)

Sadly the polls aren't the best reflection of who is voting and based on what. Those that create polls, seem to have a vested interest in keeping society focused on the superficial aspects that make us different, and use it to keep us all divided.

It's sad and unfortunate to see so many buying into all of this, without considering the larger implications.

[roody]

51. It's horrible and discouraging. Trying to look at the long view,

I never dreamed we would be having this conversation in my lifetime (I'm only 55.) Freedom is coming. Higher consciousness is coming. One day soon, humans will look at this denial of civil rights and say, "What were we thinking?" How did MLK put it? The arc of justice is long, but it bends towards justice.

[The Brethren]

54. I believe the true losers last night

were gay people in general. However, after certain events today that were not covered by the news, I think the next group of people who were the losers were the ones who voted for Obama not because of the fact that he is half black and half white, nor that race should even be a factor in this race, but because they believed in him based on his character and his promises. Some of those good people were treated like garbage by both white and black jerks today and this evening. And if that is what going to be the fallout from this election, fine. Then I believe people are going to starting getting back what they give.

I'm a white person of European and Native American descent and I don't care what someone's race or ethnic background is. I give a damn who someone is as a person and how you treat me and my loved ones. I was also brought to stand up against racist b.s. towards people of other colors which I have done. But after last night and then today, I'm not standing up for anyone who doesn't stand up for gay rights and ending discrimination against gay people and women. And I don't care if that person is white or black or effing green with orange spots. Nor am going to put up with any more "white trash" remarks that I've seen and heard in increasing number in public and on the internet. I know that if some made a stupid racist remark like that towards black people they would be jumped all over. Racism and homophobia cross all lines - whites, blacks, Hispanics, Jewish people, etc. I don't respect, nor trust any bigot - and right now, I hope every effing bigot out there ---- black, white, Democratic, repug, etc. gets what they deserve in return - 10 fold!

And in my opinion after recent events I believe both homophobia and racism are going to get a whole lot worse - esp.. since this election, not better. Maybe in time progress will prevail. In the meantime, this election has taught me one very valuable lesson --- to apply an old expression: to stand up for your own. Including the fact if another minority or group of people wants me to stand up for them....they better plan standing up for me and what matters to me. I'm outraged at yesterday and then today on a personal situations because of the election. Scr*w it (excuse my language). Lesson learned. Why should I care and put my money and neck on the line for other people, who view me and others like me, as a 2nd class citizen - more specifically as inferior to them. I'm not tolerating that crap anymore from anyone.