I blew up

[Irishonly]

I have been a strong advocate of defeating proposition 8. Not only is it illegal, it is immoral and wrong.

I also am active in my church. I belong to the Disciples of Christ which is the "sister" to the United Church of Christ although we are a much smaller denomination. As with any church we have neocons to progressives and it's not unusual for our church to have a wide difference of opinions. I have always tried not to talk politics while I am there. When I feel passionately about something my Irish can kick in and my pastor tells me I can scare the crap out of the little old ladies because they are very used to the soft spoken me.

I scared a few, including our resident neocon libertarian. He made a mistake by spewing all of the lies shown in the commercials and I let him have it, no hold barred.

The good thing is about fifty people now know that a church will not lose its tax exempt status if a minister for refusing to marry a gay couple. Personally, I think they should but they won't. Our pastors require non members to go through a prenuptial class before they agree to marry them. It's not a money making thing, there is no charge. They also know the education statute they refer to is talking about a teacher reading books in primary grades and that just because something is written doesn't mean it will be followed. My daughter attended the same district from 4th to graduation and never once did she ever have a lesson about King or Chavez. I didn't agree with teachers ignoring the mandates but that's what NCLB did.

Then they got a lesson in ancient Greek history and what normal Bible scholars say about Leviticus. It isn't what neocon ministers say it is. I don't know if I changed any minds or not but several people thanked me because they weren't aware of any churches status.

I also learned something I didn't know although it may be bunk. I was wondering about the churches handing out the yes on 8 signs and I was told they can talk about propositions legally. I think it may be bunk although it seems like neocon churches get by with a lot.

We all have to do what we can. I can't afford to send large donations as I am disabled and on a fixed income. It also stops me from volunteering as much as I want but I can sure talk till I am blue in the face to make sure we are all equal.

[ronnykmarshall]

1. Way to go!

[Irishonly]

2. How are you doing?

You have been on my mind. I loved your wedding pictures and blubbered just like I was in attendance. The joy shown on everyone's faces just made my heart sing. I was so sad to read about your experiences with your cousin(?). I hope everything is better.

Thanks. For too long, too many of us have been silent. It's now way past time for everyone to have equal rights and I hope Californians are wise enough to not fall for the hate rhetoric.

[ronnykmarshall]

3. Things are great ....

Just holding my breath on Prop 8.

[davidinalameda]

4. non-profits can take positions on ballot measures

[Jamastiene]

5. All I can say to you is thank you.

I REALLY like your spirit. Thank you for having the intestinal fortitude to stand up to people. :hug:

Churches have been spouting anti-gay rhetoric for a hum teen years now. They get by with it because most of the leaders we elect LET them get by with it.

The only thing I can think of to counteract our lawless awful poor excuse for government is to open up liberal churches galore and start taking care of our own and pushing our own political beliefs from the pulpit. It wouldn't even matter if the churches were Christian or not...

BUT

If they were Christian, they could do anything they wanted. If anyone in our government or on the right wing side of things said anything, they could break out the long suffering overstated point out that "America is a Christian nation."

Maybe it is time we started fighting fire with fire. We are going to hell in a hand basket anyhow with this crappy government we have. The least we should be doing is taming the fire and training the fire to work for us.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. I disagree with your "should lose their tax exempt status for refusing to marry a gay couple" stand

Religious ceremonies are entirely optional, as far as the law is concerned. There is not -- and thanks to the First Amendment, can never be -- any requirement that people undergo a religious ceremony to be legally married. Under that same First Amendment, it would be unconstitutional to require that religious groups perform their rituals under conditions that violate their religious principles. We cannot require that Catholic priests perform weddings for excommunicants and we cannot require Orthodox rabbis to perform weddings for non-Jews; therefore, we cannot require clergy to perform weddings for same-sex couples if the teachings of their religion consider such unions a moral violation.

[VaYallaDawg]

7. I think Thomas Jefferson is applauding your common sense,

as do I. The religious part of marriage is just that - religious - in other words, really an "add-on" to the actual marriage status. The real crux of the matter is that the minister/officiator/presider/priest/rabbi should be licensed by the state to perform a marriage if she/he is doing so - the religious aspect, if the couple chooses to indulge in that, is strictly optional. And yes, if a couple chooses to be married within a religious setting, then the rules/protocol of that religion should apply. If not, head for the JP.

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. There are two changes in Washington law I would like to see

1: The role of a marriage officiant is to countersign the signatures of the principles being married and the two witnesses. It is, in short, nothing more than a notarial act, specifically the taking of a jurat (an oath.) Therefore, all notaries public licensed by the state should have the authority to officiate a wedding. Notaries in Florida, South Carolina and Maine already have this authority.

2: Strip clergy of their statutory authority to officiate at weddings. Clergy who wish to officiate at a legal wedding (as opposed to a purely ceremonial one with no legal status) may become licensed as a notary public; they may then sign marriage licenses in that capacity rather than by virtue of being a minister.

[Irishonly]

9. What you are reading is pure frustration

I am so tired of all of the exclusion some churches teach and practice. As I said in my post, my pastors require non members to go through a marriage class before they will marry them. My church is old and beautiful. Many people request to be married there.

I sometimes think I will explode about the exclusion. If a pharmacist doesn't believe in birth control he/she/it doesn't have to fill the prescription, in some states. At times I wonder where it is going to stop.

I used to not understand what was wrong with civil unions until I started reading this board. I have never walked in a GLTB's shoes and I cannot understand fully all of their frustrations when straight people say stupid things. I guess it comes down to my belief that we are all on this path of life together and no one should be denied rights given to others be it legal or moral.