So, I was talking with the older gentleman from the south about marriage equaltiy.

[glowing]

It has spanned two nights now. At first he was completely against it and thought it was wrong. He actually said something about judges and ruling from the bench. I had explained it as best I could to this gentleman.. I said the idea of our govt is checks and balances.. the judges ultimate dept is to rule whether or not they believe the laws are constituional or not. Making a difference between marriages of heterosexuals and homosexuals would be unconstitutional because it is creating a different set of rules for a society that is supposed to hold up equality.

Then I explained that for me, a 29yr old woman, I didn't have a problem with two men marrying or two women marrying, and I would teach my children that it is fine and its ok. I said think about it this way, I have always gone to school with children of all different colors.. it wasn't weird or odd or abnormal; it was just another fact of life. We learned to judge people by who they were and how they treated people. So, if I don't think that marriage between two men is wrong or two women is wrong, and my children aren't taught that it is wrong, then it just becomes a norm of society, right?

So, he thought about it over the course of the night and the day. Today he asked me again about it. His new concern was the children of these couples. He said that this one lesbian woman that he knew had a child and the child was kinda "weird". Most children I know are weird.. or go thru a period of time trying to figure out who they are.. just life in general... but I said, all in all, a family that provides love, guidance, and a family structure isn't going to ruin a child. AND a family that understands what it means to be so untolerated in society is more likely to allow a child to explore who they are within the context of safe means. Again, I went to school with a girl who had two moms.. It was odd at first only because it was new, but she was a cool kid, and her moms were parents like anyone else's parents... So, for me it was something that wasn't scary. Its something my children won't be scared of. AND eventually, though it may be a while before society is ever 100% tolerant of anything, marriage equality will be so normal that it will be an afterthought.

I think I changed the old man's mind a bit. Made him realize that people my age are NOT staying up late at night worrying about what may be going on in one of our friends bedrooms... AND certainly, I don't think it changes the marriage I have to my husband. I think I reduced his fear and "huh" factor... Perhaps I've made him understand that marriage equality isn't something to crusade against. Hey, maybe he'll even vote for Obama now? Who knows.

[annabanana]

1. This is the kind of conversation that

can change the world. The less "strange" it seems, the less threatening it is..

[BlooInBloo]

2. I betcha a brazillion bucks you didn't change his mind one iota....

Wonderful effort tho - not your fault.

[glowing]

4. I think I made him look at things with a different set of eyes.. and in a way

someone has never aproached the subject with him before. He wasn't a dumb guy, just older and from the south and from a time when it just wasn't done or done in his view.

[jberryhill]

13. Maybe not. People can only change their own minds, though

...and there is nothing wrong with helping them do that without calling them names.

Changing your own mind is usually a process, not a moment.

Think about a long-held belief that you changed, and how you reached that point.

[glowing]

19. I think I changed his mind about being afraid of it. I think I gave him a perspective

and a view point that people my age and younger don't perceive as a threat. AND if I'm the future and its something that doesn't hurt me, my marriage, my values, my faith, or anything at all, then why is he fighting against it so hard... I had to correct him as well and explain that gay doesn't mean choice... People his age just hid it and denied it and became family men or women because it was so taboo.. So, people are age are getting better at just being more comfortable in their own skin.. Hopefully, as time goes on, telling one's parents won't be some kind of confession that causes a mother to weep and a father to hang his head in shame.

[rosesaylavee]

3. I bet the conversation is not over.

But I applaud you talking to him about it - letting him explore his fear of the unknown with you, a safe person he can relate to.

This is exactly how hearts and minds are turned and prejudice is reduced, then diminished and eventually defeated.

:applause:

[glowing]

5. Well, I'm at work at a hotel.. I'm not sure he'll be staying again tomorrow.

Some people have the ability to listen and converse and ask questions... I didn't treat him like he was a bigot, and he didn't scream and use profanities... I think for him he is trying to understand a world that is working faster and faster and changing a lot... and why it is changing. Someone with a brain that you don't scream at is able to understand better.

[glowing]

23. You are soo right.. now, I'm talking about policy, wars, and Bush's grandfather

that tried to take over the us... that's a nice little goodie many don't know.. LOL.. I might make the man a democrat yet.

[rosesaylavee]

24. Very very cool!

It's amazing what doesn't get out to the sheeples. You are good!

[Poseidan]

6. actually, all marriages are non-legal

Marriage is a religious establishment. None of them should be under government jurisdiction. If Christian marriage is only between a man and woman, the Christian church should only marry men and women. If the government forces the Christian church to marry men and men, it has violated the Constitutional rights of the Christian church.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Rhythm]

9. The minute the US government started giving certain special rights to 'married' folks,

'marriage' in this country ceased to be a purely religious institution. As long as people possessing a legal marriage license are able to obtain 'survivor benefits' from the Social Security Administration, or to inherit one another's property without taxation (among other things... there are something like 1000 separate rights that are different for 'married people' that this applies to), then the institution of 'marriage' must, by the 'equal protection' clause of the 14th Amendment, be open to ALL.

Nobody said that there is a RIGHT to be 'married' in a church, and no one is trying to force ANY church to hold wedding ceremonies for those who do not share their doctrinal views. However, a church is not the only place that one can be legally married. Indeed, if that was the case, it would leave atheists in quite a lurch, wouldn't it?

Also, as far as whether, per your example, same-gender marriage is against the Christian faith, that is open to interpretation, and varies by denomination. The United Church of Christ, the Metropolitan Community Church, the UU, as well as many churches within the Episcopal Church celebrate Holy Matrimony with their parishioners both gay and straight. There may be others, but i know for a fact that the above mentioned are all 'welcoming congregations'.

[Fearless]

15. To be fair...

Marriage is non-denominational and perfectly in line with the separation of church and state.

[Tyo]

22. Wait a minute

When have marriages ever not been about inheritance, child custody, property rights, and financial rights and obligations among other things? These are hardly religious issues.

[joeybee12]

7. Good for you...I believe most people aren't hateful, but are really

guided by their background and the time and place they were raised. Most are willing to at least listen, and your kind of conversation really can work wonders. :applause:

[DarkTirade]

10. That, and the idea of a gay marriage is a foreign concept to them, mostly due to said upbringing.

And they can only see the differences that might scare them. Not the underlying similarities that are so obvious to those of us who are more comfortable with the subject.

[Creideiki]

8. In the case of California

You could remind him that the state legislature voted for same-sex marriage two times and each time, the Governator vetoed it because it should be decided by the courts, not the legislature and executive. You don't get to have your cake and eat it, too.

[glowing]

18. I think it will eventually head on to the Supreme Court and they will make it a legal right.

[offog]

11. Good stuff!

That's the way to build tolerance - gentle persuasion. Maybe you didn't change that gentleman's mind, but at least you made him think. I had a similar conversation with a conservative older fellow way back in 1984, in the middle of the AIDS panic. This man, Lloyd, and I were talking about homosexuals, and I told him I was okay with gays. He said "What about AIDS?" I responded by saying "What about sickle-cell anemia?" I explained that this disease hits mostly black people, but that doesn't mean all or most black people carry it. So just because AIDS affects mostly gay people (which seemed to be the case at the time), that doesn't mean all or most gays carry it. I doubt that I changed Lloyd's mind about gays, but I may have made him think twice about the "AIDS excuse" for homophobia.

[glowing]

17. I hated that period of AIDS when it came out and no one knew anything but to be scared.

The instructions they gave us a young children on a grown up idea was frightening... Don't pick up a needle; don't become "blood" sisters/ brothers with anyone; if someone starts bleeding, don't touch them, come get an adult, and let your poor friend bleed to death; be scared of the dentist; be scared of everyone because anyone can become a carrier and they look healthy. AIDS was really handled badly when it first popped onto the scene.

[DeSwiss]

12. That is wonderful!!!

Thank you! - K&R

[bertman]

14. Excellent. Glowing, you have done the world a service. Even if he didn't change his mind

he now has something to think about in a positive way instead of from a totally ignorant, negative perspective.

This whole gay marriage issue is such a crock-of-shit that it makes me dislike Christians and Muslims even more than I did before they started making this a litmus test.

Yep, I said Muslims too, because they're no better than the Christians when it comes to gays being treated as actual human beings.

I have a friend who is a practicing Catholic who is a lesbian, married (in my mind and in the presence of, and with the blessings of, many of our friends), has a daughter she and her wife have raised into a beautiful, intelligent young woman. I am flabbergasted by her religiosity and her adherence to a belief system that has wreaked death and destruction on so many innocents who were harming no one but who violated the rules of the Patriarchical Catholic church.

How did I get off on the church and gays? I don't know, but it seems that the church would be totally supportive of two people who love each other and want to wed.

[glowing]

16. Some people need faith... some people need a place they feel comfortable in

where they can feel spiritually cleansed.. At my work we have an upstart church meeting twice a week... Awesome woman pastor.. and most of the parishoners are gay or lesbian... They are awesome. They sing so loud on Sunday morning that they shake the building... It refreshes me just being around them... I'd like to join their church, but feel a little odd since I work where they heal. I don't want it to feel weird of intrusive if I attend, and I don't want my boss to perceive a bias towards their group.. so, I haven't as of yet.. but I get to listen in on Sunday, and it renews my spirit. The reason I like this church is because the message is more pure, the prayers uplifting, and the healing and "family" binds are real... No hypocrisy.. which is why I've left many churches in the past.

I've always looked at faith and church as a place to refresh, heal, meditate, enjoy the companionship/ family, and eat lot's of old ladies pies and coffee cakes (lol). We all need a spot where we feel safe... and where we can take a moment to refresh; put things in perspective; and lick our wounds that world has lashed upon us.

[OregonBlue]

20. Great story. Next time he brings up the judges thing you might also ask him if he wants

judges deciding what consenting adults do in their bedrooms. Point out that it's a very slippery slope to allow them to rule on what one group of people does behind closed doors. Where does it end?

[glowing]

21. When I was speaking with him the first day.. I said, judges have ruled on the law

before in regards to our constitution.. and you know, I was born into a society where children of all colors go to the same school and can participate in the same activities equally. At one time, there were laws excluding marriages of people of different color, but in college I dated a black man without blinking, without hesitation, and without worry of going to jail for loving someone who happened to have a different color. The more love we create, the less fear and hatred we all face...

[Jamastiene]

25. Flies and honey...

You know the old saying about attracting more flies with honey. It sounds like you understand that concept quite well. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup: :)

[sui generis]

26. realistically it's about property, period.

Nothing else. If you can't define your family unit legally, you can't define your heirs, your next of kin, or how you wish your last will and testament to be executed.

You are a ward of the state, and of your blood relatives. If you can't deed property and assets to your family, then whoever receives it, including your partner of multiple decades and your grown children, will end up paying gift tax and simple income for the value of any assets you bequeath them.

Your cousins several times removed have a greater right to your property and belonging than the person you have lived with your whole life.