Here is another reason I don't buy that homophobes are disproportionately Gay

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Think about your grandparents generation and how much they do not like gay people. Do you think they were a particularly gay generation? Do we really all have closeted gay grandparents? Was this the gayest generation ever?

Now, think about youngsters today, and how much less homophobic they are. (according to most polls, a large percentage of young people support gay marriage). Is this a particularly heterosexual generation?

This is one of many reasons i don't buy the "homophobe=closeted gay" argument.

Yes some homophobes are gay. I would say the proportion is same as the population. i.e: 1/10th are GLBT




(ok, i am sure some of you have very open minded grandparents but for the most part, this argument stands)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. Yes.

And every violent homophobe I've ever known was also a raging misogynist. For others it's about control and power. Gay people bother them because they are deviating from the rigid gender roles these people feel are crucial for maintaining order.

[SacredCow]

2. Good argument....

Having lived a good portion of my life "pretending" to be straight, I can attest that the ramifications of living a lie can take many, many forms- over-compensation is surely one of those, but overall I'd get on board with the 1 out of 10 estimate. Not enough to cast blanket assumptions, surely.

[LeftCoast]

3. I have to agree with you

I think it makes liberal heterosexuals feel better if they feel it's a 'gay problem' but then, I'm still pretty pissed off about what's going on here so maybe my view is a bit clouded.

[napoleon_in_rags]

4. My grandparents say "those people were always around"

"Back when I was in the Navy, women did that all the time, but they didn't have to make it everybody's business like today."

That kind of thing. In that culture it was all a lot more closeted. Its the obsessive homophobe who is usually gay, and you know it when you meet them. That older generation doesn't obessively TALK about homosexuals, but the obsessive types do. They can't let it go, very emotional about it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. False analogy.

Odds are, yes, a number of our grandparents were closeted gays.

But homophobes are not representative of the general population.

And those who are gay are not "closeted" gays, but gays in denial - and that denial is what prompts them to extremes, up to and including violence against gays.

Some apparent homophobes who speak against gays are using that speech as part of their cover - but the dangerous homophobes are those who are so ashamed of their own "weakness" at entertaining thoughts they hate that they act out violently as a substitute for acting out sexually. People who are comfortable with their own sexuality, whether gay or straight, have no impetus to violent action.

So while gays may be as much as 6 or 7% (numbers still highly disputed, as it includes those never with anyone not of their own sex - 2-3% - to those who switch hit as opportunity and situations change - 12-15%) of the population, they are likely well over 50% of the homophobes.

Unless you can come up with some rationale that homophobia is a genetically transmitted trait rather than a psychological disturbance, then your argument has no merit. As far as I can tell, homophobia is a disorder created by the tension of inner feelings toward members of the same sex straining against societal, usually biblical, condemnations of those feelings.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. your argument is so bad its funny

homophobia and racism are not mental illnesses, they are shared social pathologies. some surroundings encourage them more than others (religious organizations being a big one).

this is as laughable as the "racism is a form of mental illness" debate on a law and order episode.

laughable yet dangerous because it moves the culpability from society and the individual to the gay community.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Do you really think the homophobic in-denial gays are part of the

"gay community"? Do you believe the "gay community" is something separate from society as a whole?

Yes, I DO believe that homophobia, like racism, is a mental disorder. There is no cohesive chain of logic to either of them - the homophobe, like the racist or misogynist, has to make certain mental leaps to come to his opinions which are not supported by reality. How would YOU define a mental disorder?

How does anything I said "move(s) the culpability from society and the individual to the gay community"?

[pnwmom]

25. No, that argument doesn't move the culpability to the gay community.

I think s/he's right -- a person who is in strong denial about his homosexual leanings may be more likely to cover them up -- even to himself -- by strongly adopting an anti-gay stance. But it's the fault of the overall homophobic society that he feels driven to do this -- not the fault of the gay community.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. this is an ass backwards logic. you are saying the person is homophobic cos he is gay

but why then is society homophobic? why are the religions homophobic? why is there so much homophobia in the governmetn? in schools? etc


straight people who are the majority are responsible for the majority of homophobia

[pnwmom]

41. The society is homophobic because historically, most societies have

rejected all major differences -- or deviances -- from the norm. It is one of the way societies (and social institutions) define themselves -- by rejecting people who don't conform. Since the vast majority of people are straight, homosexuals are seen not to conform.

I am not saying "the person is homophobic cos he is gay." I am saying that a person who is gay or leans that way, and is living in a homophobic society, may feel a good deal of internal conflict. In denying his own homosexuality he may feel the need to line up strongly with those who most vociferously oppose it. That doesn't mean that all vehement opponents of homosexuality are driven by this motive. Some are just hateful people, others are driven by fear of the unknown.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. again your logic is circular

The roots of homophobia do not lie in internalized homophobia. It cannot because if there was no hatred of gays from society, an individual gay person could not have internalized any hatred. Just as straight people cannot suffer internalized heterophobia, since heterophobia doesn't exist. Homophobia exists largely because of misogyny and rigid gender roles. There are other theories as to why homophobia exists, but its certainly doesn't and indeed cannot have its roots in internalized homophobia.

[pnwmom]

46. I didn't say that homophobia exists because of internalized homophobia.

I said it exists because social institutions tend to try to stamp out differences among its members, and gay people have been perceived as different.

An individual gay person who is anxious to be accepted by his society MAY react to the conflict between society's homophobia and his homosexuality by siding with the oppressive society -- and taking an especially negative position against homosexuality -- in an effort to deny his own conflicted feelings.

He is unconsciously identifying with the oppressor. I'm sure you've heard of that phenomenon.

[Zuiderelle]

7. Where the hell did you come up with your 50%? That's insane.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. from his ass. its real data though.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Just a guess from personal observations. Obviously, there are no

statistics on "are you a homophobe because you are in denial about your own gay tendencies?".

What is so insane about that guess? Are you one of those who believes that everyone who does not embrace gays MUST be a homophobe, which would include close to 50% of the population, thereby making my guess reflect 25% of the population as a whole?

Know what? Gays are a tiny fraction of the population. Homophobes are also a tiny fraction of the population. The vast majority of the population is neither gay nor bi, and the vast majority of them don't really care one way or the other. Not everyone who opposes equal marriage is a homophobe - most are simply traditionalists, and most of them do support civil unions and equal rights.

Now, being a Pelosi fan, THAT's insane.

[closeupready]

14. While most people are not actively bi, most people have been bi or had bi experiences

at some point in their lives. Further, most people can recognize a same-sex individual as "hot" or sexually attractive without being personally attracted to that person. For example, as a gay man, I recognize Scarlett Johanson's sex appeal, even though she does absolutely nothing for me.

So depending upon what our definition of bi is, I have always argued that most people are, in fact, bi. Far more than 50%.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Yeah, depending on definition.

I think the unspoken secret of most straights is that they had a gay/bi experience at some point - well over 50%. By my definition, bi is someone who continues to switch up after that experimental phase, when most people have made a decision one way or another. I think there is a lot more choice involved than current dogma allows for - that only a very small percentage is locked into the gay or straight life by predisposition.

[closeupready]

17. That's an interesting point. Lionness, the threadstarter, said on another thread

and forgive me for quoting out of context, Lionness, that, for example, in India and their community, there is an understood notion that men will mess around with other men (their friends, etc.), and it's not sex, it's "masti". (Latin and arab culture have similar ideas.)

While I would never impose my judgment on those who think like that, I would (as a Westerner) make an objective observation that same-sex sexual activity is taking place and conclude that the parties are either gay or bi, if we are using commonly understood Western ideas about what is meant by the term "bi" or "gay".

People who claim to be hetero but are actually bi also like to play around with words in order to rationalize why their bisexuality is really just a different form of heterosexuality, but in fact, if you have same-sex desires and attractions, you are at least bi, and even if you are married, you may also be gay.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. yes as a matter of fact i do believe if you believe gays are less than heterosexuals in any way

then you are a homophobe.

traditionalist is code word for a bigot.

[Zuiderelle]

47. Gays are not "a tiny fraction" of the population. We are a significant fraction.

How on earth do you consider 1/10th or even 1/20th to be "tiny?" 1/1000th would be tiny.

Being evil is insane, if you want to stoop to making fun of user names. :eyes:

[DarkTirade]

27. 40% of all statistics are made up.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i think 90% of stats w,out a source are made up. nt

[bdf]

16. On edit, entire content deleted

Just realized after I posted to check which forum the thread was in.

[pnwmom]

26. You are correct to distinguish between closeted gays and gays in denial.

It is possible to be in the closet with regard to the outside world and yet accept and act on your own homosexuality.

For example, my father was closeted until the early 80's -- but he wasn't in denial (to himself), and he didn't teach us to be homophobic. Quite the opposite.

[closeupready]

9. I don't think homophobe=gay, but I do think homophobe=bisexual man/woman embarrased of

their same-sex feelings and desires. It CAN also mean closeted gay man/woman.

My grandmother's sister (my great-aunt) once told me that there were a few bachelor's among my grandfather's family. Meaning, gay. So it's not like gayness was invented by US or by young people. Gays and lesbians have always existed, and older people dealt with it differently than people today do.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. why? most people i run into aside from the GLBT community are somewhat homophobic

does it mean that 50% of the population is bi?

[closeupready]

12. In a word, yes. Most people are bisexual.

probably 60-70%. having said that, not all bisexuals are homophobic, but when you do encounter a homophobe, they are most likely to be a bisexually oriented individual with internalized hatred for their own homosexual attractions.

[Der Blaue Engel]

18. Not all homosexuals are biphobic and not all DUers are asshats

But some are. x(

[closeupready]

19. A claim was stated, observations were solicited here. If we

can not have an open discussion amongst friends where people can express differences of opinion without having to walk on eggshells, then just let me know, and I'll move on, thanks.

By the way, it's not just me - I've had PM discussions with other gay-friendly members recently who are surprised at the unfriendly tone here in GLBT.

Or am I totally missing the point of your post?

[Der Blaue Engel]

20. And I stated my opinion

which is that your stated opinion contained an unpleasant tinge of bigotry.

That is in fact the essence of a difference of opinion. I don't see any shells. :shrug:

[closeupready]

21. Could be, I don't know, If you were offended, I apologize.

Your opinion seems to be a singular one, so perhaps you are being too sensitive, and reading "asshat" type messages in posts where they don't exist? :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. no i read that as well in your message as well. i didnt jump on you because frankly i know you and

like you


my problem with all these arguments is everyone eventually ends up shifting the blame to the GLBT community. the blame belongs squarely in a homophobic society created in parts by misogyny, religion, stringent gender roles etc. it is not isolated to larry craig. most of us have dealt with homophobia in our churches, school, parents and bosses. are all these people gay? or bi? no. but a lot of them are invested in keeping homophobia alive and well in society

[Der Blaue Engel]

23. I think a better conclusion to draw than "homophobes are closet cases" is

that homophobia causes closet cases. That's all we can say about it. Drawing any conclusion about the orientation of most or even some homophobes based on the behavior of a few outed homophobes is inherently flawed and inherently homo- or biphobic, whether one intends it that way or not.

And I am making equally flawed assumptions when I assert that one may be an asshat simply because they make an statement that some may perceive as asshatery, which was kinda my point. ;)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i disagree. very small part of society is bi.

[closeupready]

34. I could certainly be wrong, but even if we just look at Kinsey's stats,

the part of society which is, in some form or another, bi is definitely not very small.

And actually, I wasn't even basing my claim on Kinsey, but rather on my own observations.

Please don't think I'm being deliberately obtuse, but how are you defining 'bi'?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. yes but there is difference between bisexuality and occasiionally

having had a sex dream that involved another person of the same gender.

[closeupready]

36. Okay, so what about these guys doing masti?

Are they bi? In the world in which I grew up, they would most certainly be bi. And some people I knew from back then would say they are in fact gay.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. i woudl say those are mostly closeted gay men. not bisexual really

but living as bisexual. some are bi. but not very many.

people can fuck whomever, its not that hard. its arousal, love and attraction that determines sexual orientation/

[closeupready]

38. To some extent we are talking past each other, because

the idea that people can fuck whoever is not one that is native to the culture I grew up in. (not flaming you on that) Or I don't know, maybe I'm just weird, because that idea was new to me when I got to college (that men could have sex with other men and not be gay), because I always thought if you had sex with another man even once, you were gay. I learned it from somewhere, so I have to think that I'm not the only one who thought/thinks that way. Who knows. I'm just glad it's Friday. :rofl:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. if you aren't going away for the weekend, you should come meet us on sunday

:P

[pnwmom]

42. Kinsey's stats are worthless, since it was an entirely self-selected study.

I'm sure you can find much more reliable stats these days.

[pnwmom]

28. Umm, well, "bachelor" doesn't equal "gay."

Although there have always been some men who were both.

Yes, I know that gay people have always existed. My father was one of them. But his bachelor uncle wasn't -- he was just stuck out on a farm and never found a woman who wanted to be stuck out there with him.

[closeupready]

33. True but sorry for not indicating I was reading between the lines, on a family level.

You know, like when your significant other says "no" but you know they mean "yes" and you come here and post it, and people go, "wait! no ALWAYS means no! Unless Webster's Unabridged is wrong, and who are YOU to doubt Webster's Unabridged?!" :rofl: Well, when she spoke of bachelor's, she meant gay.

[pnwmom]

40. No need to be sorry. I didn't think you were trying to give offense,

and I understand your point.

[jonmiller74]

24. A cite to enlight.

Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?.
Adams, Henry E.; Wright, Lester W.; Lohr, Bethany A.
Journal of Abnormal Psychology. 1996 Aug Vol 105(3) 440-445

The follow is my opinion only,

Homophobia like any phobia stems from an irrational fear of something, most heterosexual unfamiliar with homosexual will have apprehension towards them the way many people are apprehensive around people different from themselves. Where homophobia and racist differ is the level of irrational fear and hatred they have for their target. I think homophobes fear that arousal we all feel towards sex, I'm a Kinsey 94 but have found myself aroused by straight porn when the performers really seem to be enjoying the sex, this is why it is often said homophobes are closet cases, not to say they are closeted homosexuals but to say the are closeted "Sexuals", afraid of their sexuality in general.

Again only my opinion.

[TheWraith]

44. That's not what people are saying.

What's being invoked is the denial principle: that the angriest, shrillest voices are usually the ones most obsessed with the thing they claim to loathe. Nobody contends that anyone who's homophobic is gay. But it certainly rings true that a disproportionate number of anti-gay crusaders are at the very least driven by their own urges. It applies in other cases, as well: the "family values" pastor cheating on his wife, etc, etc. There was a true story a couple years back about an evangelical who would loudly and publicly preach about the evils of homosexuality and pedophilia. Naturally, he was later arrested for soliciting sex from a 14-year old boy.

Nobody says it's all of them. But the denial principle has held true all through history, such that Shakespeare famously described it as the lady protesting too much.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. prove disproportionality. just because you remember 10 anti gay gay bigots

doesnt mean its disproportionate.

[David Zephyr]

49. I agree and make the same point below.

It's the over-the-top homophobia, the obsession with it that seems more and more to be a sign of trying to control one's self, to repress an identity they hate and fear. I've seen too much in my long life to know that these men are desperately trying to defeat what they fear and know is within them. They also wrongly figure that all other straight men are equally filled with hate for gay men.

Homophobia in women generally seems far less common, far less intense and many times has more to do with fears of losing one's husband or boyfriend, especially if she suspects (many times rightfully so) that he may indeed be gay. That's a whole other dynamic.

But the vicious and obsessed hatred and fear of homosexuality is not really common among most men and when it appears, that being the rabid type, I have found that these individuals are usually homosexual and have known it most all of their life.

[David Zephyr]

48. I don't think that your point and the other contradict each other.

Cultural and historical bias against homosexuals by older generations is clearly there as you point out.

But even those that grew up back then rarely had overtly homophobic tendencies. I'm speaking of people who are obsessed with homosexuals and who hate them. Even older folks who grew up long before the word "gay" was even in our popular language and who had phobias about homosexuals still weren't in the dark. They knew about it, but didn't talk much about it.

There has been a lot of anecdotal and now real research that shows a relationship between overt and hostile homophobia with repression of one's own homosexuality.

When a young man stabs to death a transvestite and has to stab her over and over and over again, he's not killing someone, he's dealing with his own self-revulsion.

I like to say here from time to time that homophobes are homosexuals because it stimulates thought, but also because it's a statement rooted in a growing amount of evidence. Moreover, if young men hear this, learn this, then they will also become aware of those among them that are overtly concerned with homosexuality. My experience is that 95% of all straight men are so damned confident in who they are and their orientation with women that they really on a grand scale could care less about gay guys.

There was a very well done documentary narrated by Gore Vidal called "The Middlesex" and it dealt with this very issue.

lionesspriyanka, if you haven't seen the documentary, I hope you can.

When I speak of homophobia as I did above, I am speaking exclusively about over the top homophobia within men, not women and not men who can on occasions joke around on the subject. Just men who are really paranoid and angry with homosexuals.

[closeupready]

50. While I recognize there are differences of opinion here, I agree 100% with you, David.

And not to pull rank on anyone here, but I know this not just from scientific data and studies and so forth, but from my own experience AS A MAN. "So what does that mean?" you may wonder - well, in the same way as, for example, women say they favor a woman's right to choose due to, among other reasons, the fact that only women can get pregnant and understand the issue through that prism, so it is with knowing implicitly over the course of a lifetime all the vocal homophobes who - it is/was obvious - are closeted homosexuals struggling with their own sexuality. Not saying ALL homophobes are homosexuals, and I guess I should add bisexuals (as I argued above) to those who struggle with their homosexual feelings, but I'm not just saying that because it sounds good.