An acquaintance of mine was arrested over the weekend...

[SacredCow]

for cruising in a local park restroom. He and 2 other fellows were carted off to jail for the usual obscenity and crimes against nature charges, and one guy had battery tacked on to the list. Nothing new for this park- there were probably hundreds of arrests there last year; it's THE cruise location in that area of town.

For the life of me, I don't understand WHY so many gay men are wired to behave this way. My friend is attractive and has a great personality. But the bottom line is that he likes it quick and anonymous- something I can't pass judgement about. But for the luvva all that's holy- log on to one of the THOUSANDS of websites that are geared for just that purpose and set something up that won't get you arrested and publicly ridiculed!

Perhaps some get a thrill out of the potential for getting caught? This is one thing about the gay (male) community that I just have never understood. If someone can enlighten me, please do so!

[MuseRider]

1. Can't help you.

I wonder why men also troll the net for children to meet for sex. You got me, I do not get it at all.

[SacredCow]

3. Well, if KIDS are involved...

then it's an entirely new level of sickening! But then again the gay community doesn't have a monopoly on that (despite what the fundies say)- there seems to be a proportional amount of straight men trolling the internet for young girls (judging by the "to catch a predator" shows).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. i hate when people confuse these two issues. trolling for men and trolling for children

are categorically not the same things and to use one as an example of another is reasserting the image of gay men as pedophiles

i know you mean well but these are not the same thing.

[MuseRider]

32. I did not imply they were the same

at least I did not mean to. I was just commenting that there were other things that were hard to understand as well. I would NEVER put the two together. Never ever, it was just a comment of something else I did not understand.

[SacredCow]

34. I think it was just the juxtaposition of the two...

I have to admit that I bristled at the initial read-through, but blew it off knowing with relative certainty that it wasn't your point (hence, my response).

[MuseRider]

36. I hate when I say something

and it sounds a different way, especially in this forum where I would want to die if I hurt anyone.

All I meant was that I did not understand those two things in regard to the risk taking involved not to equate them.

Thanks for answering, I was a freaked when I came back and saw those two responses!

[SacredCow]

37. No worries....

I've read enough of your posts to know that there was no malicious intent. But yeah- I hate that, too! Sometimes I'll write out something that makes perfect sense to me, but when someone else reads it, it goes in a completely different direction! Then, I'll read it again, and be horrified about how it was taken...

Such is teh internets! :hi:

[MuseRider]

38. Thanks

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. i object to even equating the two in terms of risk

one is a risk to a child

another is a risk an adult takes for themselves.


on edit: i understand you meant well but everytime there is a thread about gay public sex invariably someone comments about the children. meanwhile no one brings up kids when its trashy straight peopel having sex on the long island rail road.

[SacredCow]

40. Child predators come in all forms...

since there are more hetero people, naturally, I believe that there are probably more hetero child molesters due to the law of proportions.

But really- that's all just getting too academic for me. ANYONE (gay/straight, male/female) that harms a child is not too highly regarded in my book.

As for this topic, I mentioned downthread that this restroom is right next to a playground where children are usually present. And that's the angle that most of the local fundies take- "teh gays have picked this spot because it's close to our children... they want to molest and/or recruit our children... etc..." For that reason alone, I really do wish those who wanted to practice cruising would find another spot. Or go to NOLA and hit the baths...

[MuseRider]

46. Lioness

Please. I did not in any way equate them and the fact that I brought them up together had no ill intentions at all. When speaking of risky behavior that is one of the first things I think of. Would it have been better if I had used a different post when mentioning risky behavior?

I do not mean to challenge you, I totally and completely understand what you are saying but I find myself feeling terribly embarrassed by this when you know and I know that there was no ill will. Of course they are not the same thing. I had no idea anyone would ever think that so I did learn something here but please. Gay public sex is no different than straight public sex, and they have nothing to do with preying on children, it is a totally different deal.

OK, now I keep going when I should stop and just shut the fuck up but this really has me upset. I think I will go for a bit and think about thinking harder before I post and where I might just be better off reading.

[tavalon]

2. Bingo

And that's the truth for some Hets too. We all have certain things that are extra erotic triggers. They are different for everyone. I have friends who thrill to that possibility of getting caught. I would rather chew on cyanide. But some of my erotic triggers would likely make you run out of the room screaming. Viva la difference! That said, I'm fairly sure getting arrested didn't add to this person's thrill and I'm sorry for them that this happened.

[SacredCow]

15. That's where I'm leaning...

but the bigger question is why one would choose to go to a park where the chances are really, REALLY good that there will be undercover police officers present? I had a friend who pulled into that park to make a phone call (an unpleasant phone call to his ex wife, so he didn't want to be driving) and the cops swarmed him because he was a single man sitting in a parked car on the phone!

There's risk, and then there's a reasonable chance!!! I think I'd find another place....

[mitchtv]

41. That used to be how Gay men met

"meeting in smokey places, hiding in shadowy corners" It is also easy to round them up when a DA is running for re-election. Why does it still exist? hard to say other than "because it's there"

[MonkeyFunk]

59. It exists because men like to fuck

if there were places where attractive, willing women were giving it away with no strings, the place would be crawling with straight men. It's not a gay thing - it's a man thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. A member of our local peace group got nabbed about 6 months ago

It was his third arrest. That carries a mandatory prison sentence.

It was so sad. We all saw him on the news.

One of our members is a couselor and she said she has never understood this either and after working with many men who have it, she thinks it is just a very powerful addiction.

The TV station did a rather extensive report and an "expert" they interviewed compared it to teens having sex in cars. I'm not sure I go along with that. Teens have nowhere else to go but grown men (our friend at least) have a place where they live.

[SacredCow]

14. It's pretty much a regular news story around here...

particularly this one park. It very often seems to be the married men that get caught there, seeking something that their wives presumably won't give them.

I agree that the "teens having sex in a car" comparison is bogus. An adult presumably either has a place to go, or can rent a cheap hotel room. And as long as no money is changing hands, the risk of getting arrested isn't there. There has to be some thrill associated with the risk.

[Mountainman]

5. I hope this doesn't sound like something I shouldn't have said but,

some thing I never understood about some gay men was why they did some of the things they did. Why were there gay bath houses? Why were there no non gay bath houses? I think the bath houses were places to go to have sex with people you didn't know. Not being gay I don't have experience with them so I don't know what they were like. It always seemed really strange and didn't do much to put gays in a good light with straight people.

Another thing that got to me was this. When I lived in Los Angeles in the 80's a lot of us went to nude beaches and we always made sure we were not overtly sexual so the public's perception of nude beaches was to not connect nudity with sex yet the gay beaches were known for the sex that went on there.

Was I just in the dark then or what?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. because to have non gay bathhouses you would need the cooperation of women

and you wouldnt have that

[SacredCow]

9. Having lived my life on both sides of the fence, so to speak...

the notion of a non-gay bath house is utter fantasy... I just can't imagine any way that would work.

There are no bath houses where I live, but New Orleans is a short drive and there are at least 2 (maybe more if you get a little more loose with the definition). I know people that go on a regular basis, and again- I just don't get the draw. It sounds decidedly awful and creepy to me.

but live and let live....

[Mountainman]

10. Well there were swinger parties so maybe they were a similar thing.

I was invited to a swinger's party in LA once and went just out of curiosity. I could not be as "open" as some of the people there. They seemed just as strange to me as the bath houses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. well there you go. thats the nongay bathhouse straight person equivalent

i think women feel comfortable at these things because they go with their SO and know most of the people there.

[SacredCow]

12. There was a good documentary about swingers some time back...

I believe it was titled "The Lifestyle: Group Sex in the Suburbs" and it was pretty interesting. There is a certain amount of... ummm... graphic footage of senior citizens engaged in activity, though, so if that makes you queasy- be forewarned. It's easy to find- I believe Netflix has it.

It was a great documentary, as I felt it to be very unbiased. There was no subtext of "look at these freaks" or alternately, any promotion of their lifestyle. It covered couples who had been engaging for decades and remained as close as ever, to couples who tried it and discovered that it wasn't for them.

I found their attitude towards bisexuality kind of strange. They were all for female on female action- thought it was natural, as women were the "loving and nurturing sex." But they were totally and vehemently against bi men, saying that if someone in their group confessed to being bi, he'd be kicked out in all haste. I'm no expert on human sexuality, but I'd think that to be involved with a group of both sexes one would have to be toward the middle of the Kinsey scale. I am not sure that a total heterosexual man would be OK with having another man in the room while he does his thing.

[Mountainman]

13. At the one swinger party I went to, the one female that was attractive to me

was there because her boy friend needed someone to trade for some other guy's female escort. We didn't have sex and spent the night talking about how weird this seemed to both of us.

[mitchtv]

42. There was the Sutro Baths in SF

then I guess Plato's retreat in NYC( missed that one)

[jumptheshadow]

48. LOL

Before AIDS, there was once a NYC landmark...

Look up Plato's Retreat on Wikipedia. For some reason the link isn't working.

[xchrom]

54. we had and have hetero sex clubs in ny sf and la..

and we had them back in the day -- the late 70s and 80s.

[mikelgb]

8. I belive it is the constant supression of the urges when growing up that leads to desperation

If one could have brought home a boyfriend from the club and had all the normal teen experiences without having to hide it...

Also, there is a fetish for public places among some... homo and hetero ... lord knows there is enough 'glory hole' porn and fiction to last a lifetime

[SacredCow]

16. I lean more to the latter....

but I rarely if ever hear of this happening to heterosexual couples. Do the police just wink and look the other way if it's a hetero couple having sex in the bushes? Or is this a phenomenon more specific to gay men?

I've never heard of this happening to a female couple, for the record. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen it firsthand.

[mikelgb]

19. I'm sure there is that too...

if it's a teen hetero couple, cop will look the other way because he did the same thing when he was that age so...

but if those nasty homos are....

yeah....

I don't crave public sex but I don't find it too objectionable either... certainly don't think it should be a crime as long as it is consensual. If people are caught they should be told to move along, "go get a room"...

[izquierdista]

17. Millions of years of evolution

Evolution has hardwired cruising, or in biological terms "searching for a mate", into every species on the planet. Humans are not the only species to have developed furtive ways of looking for a mate, it is present in other social animals. Low status monkeys have to get their sex on the sly, out of the view of the alpha male, and they risk getting punished if they are caught. The only crime against nature going on is the criminal stupidity of law enforcement, thinking they can enforce against natural behaviors. The only thing they should be doing is asking people to take it somewhere else.

Like a lot of "crimes", the perpetrator underestimates the risk of getting caught, or ignores it entirely because he is fixated on the reward. Risk of getting caught does provide a bit of an adrenaline rush, and if one gets addicted to the rush, their behavior will become riskier and riskier until they finally go one step too far.

[SacredCow]

18. There's a lot of sense in that...

Taking it to a strictly biological level- I hadn't really considered it on that plane.

Thanks!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. to be quite honest, there is no single answer to this

its a complex answer that involves male biology, sociological and cultural condition of males and masculinity, a simple "just because they can", and the thrill of getting caught

if straight women were just as open to this, straight males would be cruising in parks too

[SacredCow]

21. Thanks, Pri... I guess I wasn't expecting a "2+2=4" kind of answer...

to quote Oscar Wilde, "The truth is rarely pure and never simple..."

When I was wrestling with coming out, my therapist said that my logical, inquisitive, and obsessive approach to everything was going to make my life in the world of gay men interesting. She suggested that gay men would very often make decisions that defy logic and reason to serve their short term needs, consequences be damned. She felt that my analytical nature would at first seem to be a hindrance to me in this new life, but that in the long term it would help me avoid some of the more common pitfalls.

I'd say she was about half right, given everything that's come down the pipe this past year... Despite my best efforts, I still end up involved with some form of drama or other...

[Zuiderelle]

22. You're correct. Gay men are no more into anonymous sex than straight men.

It's just easier for them to find willing partners, since their partners are other men.

I always find it interesting that straight people point to (those) gay men and say, "See? They have anonymous sex with each other. Gay is bad." Why don't they look at gay women and say "See? They are no different than straight women. Relationships seem to be infinitely more important to them than sex. Gay is good." (generalities aside)

There's crossover on all sides, there are straight and gay women who enjoy anonymous sex (though I've never met any). I guess the issue with gay men is that they have more opportunities, so the ones who do enjoy it are more obvious and stand out.

Ah, how complex it all is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. i think people forget that long before we know our sexual orientation, we have been 'trained'

as males or females. that training has lasting consequences.

[SacredCow]

24. So I guess we're down to the old adage now....

"men are pigs." :sarcasm:

Seriously, I see your point and it does seem to fit.

I'm a very shy person, by nature, and was NEVER aggressive in the sex/romance arena. Most of my dates were from the advances of the OTHER party. When I was still kidding myself about being straight, I spent a lot of time alone, since women generally don't proposition men all that often. After coming out... Night and day, to say the least. I found myself being hit on all the time, and it was so foreign to me! I would have thought that it would have been good for the self esteem, but.... add some other factors, and it was just trading one set of issues for another...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. random sex doesnt turn men into pigs. by that definition i would be a pig

and i am so not. :hi:

[SacredCow]

26. Heavens, no....

As I've read, you're the Reigning Empress of the Universe... :hug:

The more I ponder it, the more I think that the biological and deep-seated psychological roles are seriously in play for this scenario. IF (big if) i were to try such a thing, who knows? I might get hooked; however, my analytical nature tells me that (given my shyness and other things) it would be an exceedingly awkward thing for me to do. So, that will remain a mystery to me- and I will lose no sleep over it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. lol

by the way, i reign, for all time!

[mitchtv]

43. In my heart I am a pig

but sadly not in reality. LOL

[ccharles000]

28. "I don't understand WHY so many gay men are wired to behave this way"

I disagree I think it is a minority of gay men who act like this.

[SacredCow]

33. Well, I didn't say "Most" or "All" were wired that way... Just many.

I agree that it's probably a minority. But aside from this friend, I've recently learned of a few others that have admitted to going to the same park every so often to get their kicks. I'm not judging anyone- Truly, I just want to understand the motivation, and there's some good, logical thought in this thread (thanks, all!).

Moreover, I'd be willing to bet that more than half of the men that get busted there are deeply-closeted married men. From what I've seen of the various hook-up websites (including Craig's List), at least half of the ads say "Married- must be discreet" or somesuch. Which brings the "repressed" card into play...

[ccharles000]

35. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Occulus]

50. Never been in the gay.com chatrooms, have you?

:silly:

[freestyle]

29. Why don't the police have better things to do?

As to your question, some people are into the thrill of getting caught, but more have internalized hatred so much that they think sex is dirty and shuold be done anonymously and in secret. I'm not sure gay men are wired all that differently, except for the obvious, but we are inundated with a great deal of negativity about who we are. But this case also sounds like another example of law enforcement excercising prejudice in the guise of enforcing the law.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. true

[SacredCow]

31. They're responding to complaints...

When the park in question was originally built, it was fairly out of the way and off the beaten path (and thus, a good choice for that kind of activity). Now, there are subdivisions all around it, and they have upgraded the park to include a lot of pavillions and playgrounds. If I recall correctly (I haven't been to that park in ages), the bathroom where all of the activity goes on is right next to one of the playgrounds, so parents see it going on (perhaps some of them even get hit on) and they issue complaints.

I hear you re the internalized hatred, and perhaps that is one factor of anonymous sex. More of what I don't get is why these guys continue to frequent a park where the chances are better than average that you'll leave in handcuffs and be on the 6 o'clock news. There has to be a draw to the thrill of it.

[mitchtv]

44. My experience is that these things can be defused

without and before police involvement.Posting signs and regular maintenance is cheaper then Police time ( although I think some of them like it)

[Toasterlad]

45. You Don't Have to Believe Sex Is Dirty to Enjoy Anonymous Sex

I will concede that many gay men have internalized homophobia, but I think it is a reach to claim more men who pursue anonymous sex are self-loathing than thrill-seeking.

I'm not into anonymous sex, but it harms absolutely no one when performed between two consenting adults, and it is ludicrous that police resources are being used to try and "stop it", as if that were remotely possible. As for why some men do it while others don't, the answer is a varied as the individuals who do and don't. I don't understand why loving partners enjoy pissing on each other, either, but it's none of my business, so I don't HAVE to understand it. Similarly, unless a couple is fucking right in front of me in a place I intend to be for a while (like a movie theater), how hard is it for me to discreetly check to see if the guy(s) is hot, then be on my way? Why should it ruin my day that I caught two people making love? What a stupid society we live in.

[closeupready]

47. Female streetwalkers do not lack for customers who buy the anonymous sex they sell.

Why, I wonder, do people find it so incredible that there are many men (gay, bi and confused) who seek free, anonymous sex acts? Men get horny, this is what many of them do in order to relieve sexual tension, esp. when they are unattached. I no more approve of that than I do of streetwalking prostitution, but it's a fact of life, all over the world.

[SacredCow]

51. Hmmmmmmm....

So the straight version of this is prostitution, which is basically anonymous (unless you're David Vitter... :spank: ). I hadn't considered that angle... Good point!

[closeupready]

52. Absolutely. You say that you are shy, so

like myself, that probably means you haven't had much experience with having close relationships with other men. (If you were much like me in my childhood and younger days, that would mean you have had almost no relationships with other people, period. But you don't get into it, so anyway) Therefore, you probably haven't known a sufficient number of men in order to feel comfortable making generalizations about men. At this point in my life, I have had a number of close relationships with other men, and have a significant number of relationships with other men as friends, and so I can comfortably say (knowing that I can defend my statements with at the very least a number of anecdotal cases) that men, gay straight and otherwise, are just generally whores, into having sex with whoever wants to have sex with them. That's a fact of life from which many of us are shielded, but over time, it should be apparent.

anyway, have a good one! :)

[bigscott]

53. LMFAO

this is priceless - thanks for your take - I agree 1000%!! (I would check the guy out first too!)

peace:wow:

[sui generis]

49. As one of the unwired ones

I have to agree. Add to that, your standards have to be pretty low, generally speaking.

But I'm a prude - and I can only say that it's not for me. What is more disturbing are the "vice" officers who are obsessed with it, to the point that they probably aren't above arresting anyone taking a piss.

WE MUST CONTROL YOUR SEX!!!!! That's the dynamic here. People gaming that system from both sides.

[mitchtv]

56. a little bit of BPH, Benign prostate hyperplasia

and you could be in big trouble

[xchrom]

55. i'm 'guilty' of that crime --

but i've never been arrested.

not as a steady diet -- but i do likes me some anonymous.

[and-justice-for-all]

57. If the act is not visable..

Than it is in fact taking place in private and not public.

Whats the hell is this "crimes against nature" bullshit? If I am fucking in a tent, it is just as private as being out of site in the woods.

[MullenBank]

58. Dan Savage

has likely addressed this issue.

Ostensibly "straight" men cruise for anonymous BJ's now and again. Which actor got busted for restroom sex who had Liz Hurley at home? For some it might be about risk but I think it's mostly about getting off. If you want some cok the men's restroom is a good place to start. Men+ cok+ semi-privacy= potential for quick NSA sex. Some restrooms just get a rep for being a good place to cruise. Why? Dunno... just seems to work out that way.

But FWIW, gay men were denied legitimate social space until, say the last 30 years. ALL gay sex EVERYWHERE was illegal so everything had to be furtive- or else. You can see the dance in action if you visit your local adult book store. Just make sure it's one that has "video booths" or a "theatre" in back. Go at the right time and it will be full of men cruising each other. A substantial number of them will be married men who are deeply closeted. Conflicted, they cannot articulate what they want so they cruise mostly with body language. Take a field trip. Dare ya.

[closeupready]

60. Agree with everything you posted.

And interestingly, you'll find almost the exact same pre-Stonewall scene anywhere where homosexual behavior is forbidden and punished. Men need to get off. That's a biological fact of life.

[MullenBank]

61. This guy has an anti-gay "family values"...

public face. Appears to behave a little differently when in private tho. Sad. Sort of.

BTW way I know the tearoom in question (no not for that reason) having lived and worked in the area for several years. The RR is vile-- I wouldn't pull out my unit in that place to pee let alone have it serviced. Cooties. Or worse.

I really think there must be a connection between physical "filth" and the whole process of getting off in a place like that.

http://www.wesh.com/news/16354282/detail.html