Sexist trans phobic gays

[undergroundpanther]

Some gays are sexists,they talk about"fish" etc. and have a snotty disdain for women and disregard their rights.Some lesbians are so angry at males (part of their reasons are personal and men dominate in this culture I am referring to bigotry besides those issues).
Some gays are trans-phobic.Saying that trans people bring down the gay community and make legit gays look bad.

I dunno about you but when a het sees a drag queen they see a man in a dress,when a het sees a transgender he sees a man in a dress.Hets can't tell the difference because they are ignorant.
Should drag queens be shunned by the gay community because they make the gay community appear tranny friendly to hets? Should drag queens be forced to act like men and give up the sequins lest they look tranny?

And where do you draw the line on who's a deviant really in the gay community which is already by the hets considered"deviant" by default??
Lets look at the Leather community,is has issues.Some straights like leather is this why leather is never included in who to exclude from the Gay community? It's a question?
Why are they ok they beat up each other for"pleasure".They get off on staging rape,humiliation and abuse.
Transpeople don't hurt other people as their source of"pleasure"(unless they have the leather fetish)
What do you make of the idea that humiliation,whipping, dominance and being a slave to someone constitutes a healthy sexuality?
Hets can be leather is this why a fetish of abuse is OK?
I am asking a question about the perception of deviance not excluding people here.

There are gay people that like "chicken" they can certainly look perverse from the outside het world.

Where do you draw the line over deciding who's bringing down the gay community? Why do you think this kind of bigotry twords people that are harming no one and are not violating others consent is OK in the gay community? I see it from time to time.

For me I draw the line at who's a deviant and who could harm the gay community with those people who excuse the violation of adult CONSENT and pedophilia.These problem people are in the gay and the straight community and they are a menace.
People who rape and go after kids.THEY are dangerous sexual deviants to every community including the hetero community..

Solidarity means to me if you are a sexual minority,and are not seeking minors or forcing sex and are not hetero... you need to stick together to have a voice. By sexual minorities I include bi's,trannies and asexual people..Any community het gay or otherwise to be safe cannot tolerate people who do not respect the rules of consenting adults and who are pedophiles.

The chicken lovers and S/M community and the trannie bigots are the individuals who seem most likely to flirt with these controversial boundaries with their own sexual conduct and it is THEY who have to watch what they do,for it is these people that cause the biggest chance of threatening the gay community with their conduct,

not trannies or bi people..

Just some thoughts here.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Panther, what is a chicken lover??

If it is too racy for a thread, PM me.

Most of your post whooshed over my head because I don't have to deal with these issues every day. But I did once have a gay friend who constantly made comments about women being fishy, etc. Especially if he had even a hint that a straight guy had been on a date or "with" a female he'd pull out all the fish jokes. It was confusing to me because this guy was rather effeminate and totally into, for example, Madonna and Cher.

Gender issues have always been a paradox to me. It's like we are in the stone age with our comprehension of gender. And I'm no better than anyone else in that regard.

[cboy4]

5. I believe a chicken-lover is someone who

is into having sex with young boys :(

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. Ah. I see

I was thinking it was more South Parkish and about having sex with...chickens.

I've led such a sexually prosaic life I'll bow out of this one. I'm boring as hell.

[undergroundpanther]

10. Chicken

is a euphamism for younger men. A chicken lover likes his guys young as he can get them legally.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. I recently had to write a paper on child abuse

and was astonished at the history of the problem. I think here in America we all have this belief that we are one of the top offenders in this area because we are not a people of moderation. But oh my, the global history and global problem with pedophilia is astounding. What is most astounding to me is that for centuries it was not even considered a problem or a crime..just business as usual. It is actually very fascinating reading, how we have come to value children more in the past hundred years or so.

[undergroundpanther]

16. Pedophilia

does not concern what gender the pedophile has or don't have or may be becoming or what gender they are attracted to.

Pedophiles can be straight,bi, gay,trannie,S/M and any religion,class or race The reality is they hurt children and violate consent and get off on it. So all of the pedophiles are pedophiles and endanger kids regardless of sex,gender,orientation,class,what sex they prefer, religion or race all pedophiles are criminals against humanity because they prey upon kids.
Pedophilia is a problem unto itself.The gender race etc of the pedophile is an irrelevant issue..

[apollo56]

2. This is bad taste and the wrong place for a message like this

I am gay and read parts of your posting but this is the wrong place and I don't know where you live but this is not typical and you should keep your opinions to yourself!

[seriousstan]

3. keep your opinions to yourself? Perhaps you should lead by example

This is a forum OF OPINIONS.

Who the fuck made you a mod?

[undergroundpanther]

12. I will speak as I wish dude.

Get over yourself. The gay community has PROBLEMS. Problems with bigots.And I don't know where you are from but I see this shit I discribed plenty in the Gay community.I am a bi tranny FtM and I hear it from bigoted gays..Women and men.

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. ROFLMAO!

You just proved UP's point for him! Good onya!

[mongo]

4. I don't even know how to respond

You seem to be making a case for solidarity for sexual minorities, but then you go on to bash the BDSM community.

For the record I don't know what the hell a "chicken lover" is.

But you seem to be doing exactly the same thing that you are railing against -- bashing a sexual minority you don't prefer or understand.

BDSM is about safe, sane and consentual interations among adults. It is the giving up of control, something that is both arousing and very inimate between two consenting partners.

For some, pain IS pleasure.

Not to mention that the National Leather Association is one of the most INCLUSIVE groups there is:

NLA:Columbus is a pansexual organization dedicated to education and understanding of alternative sexual lifestyles.

While we are primarily a BDSM/Leather group, all interests are welcome.

We are Bisexual, Gay, Heterosexual, Lesbian and Transsexual. We are male, female, couples and leather families. We are all creeds, professions and income brackets. We are what we say and ask that of others.

Our membership requirements are that you be at least 18 years of age and open minded. While something may not be of interest to you, it may very well be for others. While you will never be forced or brow beaten to be something you're not or to do something you are uncomfortable with, there is room for growth in the leather community.

http://www.nlacolumbus.com/about/about.html

[tocqueville]

6. I love chicken... fried n/t

[undergroundpanther]

17. fried chicken

YUM!

Ever use cracked white pepper on it while you fry it.. double yum.
I have a killer recipie if any of you want to try it PM me!

[kweerwolf]

7. I hear you, undergroundpanther

I find the bigotry aimed at transpeople from within the LGBT community to be horrendous.

Unfortunately, sometimes we act like other minorities who, when we start to win our rights, want to slam the door behind us rather than help hold it open for others. We tell ourselves that trans rights aren't our fight and we want to rest on our laurels and congratulate ourselves that we made it this far. I suppose that's part of human nature ... but I would hope that we could overcome that part of our nature to be truly accepting.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. Okay, I said I was bowing out but I lied

because I do have a bit of experience in my life with transgendered folks, all male to female. And I find myself gravitating towards them because they have known such pain. One I met at church in choir and two were parents of kids I teach. I don't want to say I pity them, because to me pity is a negative emotion. But I always go out of my way to be friendly because I feel so much empathy. Yet I have never experienced anything like this personally. Well, I am a very large lady. Maybe that is why. But then I am always going around smiling and saying hello to obvious Muslims in the grocery store because I'm afraid they get a lot of dirty looks and comments.

I'm kind of dippy that way, I guess.

But I cannot begin to even imagine the courage it takes to change gender and remain in your present life. I don't understand the gender urge, but it sure as hell must be strong for people to go through what they go through.

[cboy4]

11. If keep up all this lying, you're going to have to

switch to the GOP! :rofl: :bounce:

[undergroundpanther]

15. You are not dippy.

I am trying to transition and it is expensive and painful.

I am saving up for chest surgery and I am heavy too. I know both ends of it.

Being born the wrong gender hurts. I was born female and I am transitioning to male. And what really gets me is this I am not a male het,in woman body.Gay guys make passes at me and think I am a guy it is so hard to tell them I lack a penis.Mine is fake. Then sometimes wghat hurts most of all is they do not excuse themselves they say something that hurtsd they insult my manhood as if I was a second class human being because I am not born a male physically..If they only understood how painful it is.

I do not feel attraction to natural bornn women the same way as I do guys. I can see the beauty in women and appreciate it .I relate to gay women well, I can hang out with them and feel tender emotions to them(especially if they are gay ortrannie too (I do help all trannies out with adjusting to feminine ways because I was there once so I can help in a way men can't and tranny men help in a way I can't. Such is the nature of transpeople we need help from both genders in different ways. My partner is male and he has helped me immensly in passing,and my MtF freinds and FtM freinds help too.. I have done makeovers for transpeople,dress shopping ,translating mens sizes to womens sizes and vice versa. Because even tho I hate my female body becausae it feels wriong for me I undertand what tranny women go through being in the wrong bodies because I am.Male to Female trannies tend to need more help passing sometimes and they are in grave danger from homophobics.)I am attracted to transpeople and gender benders more than any other kind of people because they are kindred to me they understand the dispair that can drive you to suicide..And I have attempted.

One lady (MtF)I know she is so beautiful, taller than me and she passes in every way except her hight.I would date her if she asked me to (my partner and I have an open relationshoip of ten years)but she desires men and I have no penis and can't afford one and it may be too dangerous physicallyt to get one and it would never function like a real penis anyway.She has said she wishes I had the equipment because she thinks I am handsome.
When she said that I was so touched but I also wanted to kill myself at the same time. I hugged her and held back tears. We are freinds tho.Most people will never realize how painful this is and awkward and lonely. Except for straights who fall for gays or gays who fall for straights and realize it can never be.


Alot of people will never understand how deeply gender dysphoria hurts transpeople. And gender dysporia sometimes has physical cause. My mom took male hormones to dry up her breasts a few years after she had my sister, soon after that she was preganat with me.my doc believes this gave me a male brain in a female body.
so I call myself bi because gender is not important concerning whom I feel is beautiful or handsome.Sexually on a phsical level alone,however I am not attracted to many people at all..To me attraction is not really a physical thing.

And when I hear persecuted people gays bashing trannies I feel anger.When I hear the fish jokes it hurts because I carry the female stigmata because of my body..I will never be a real man to some of these bigots..And I can't be a real woman I am too manly and I don't fit in there . And this situation hurts me like you cannot imagine.
Then of course there the hets.Ballbreaker,Dyke,(and I am not a dyke)het men seeing me as a rival and uppity woman(while I have this chest)They hoot at me on the street.
Dykes repulsed that I would reject womanhood,and mystified I don't feel hot for them.
Gay men freaking out that they were attracted to a "fish" or resenting I look like a guy but I am not one Reeaally..
Straights freaking out when I tell them the truth..
I will not even get into my feline transformation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002441727_catman16.html

People on DU had a ball humiliating me over wanting to be a feline person before..(tattoos whiskers ect like Cat man but in my own way) I no longer go to the lounge because of them.I have seen too many bullies and too many enablers pretending humiliatinfg is"fun"
It hurt to be made fun of so much for being different,creative and seeing beauty differently.It hurts to exist.



Can you imagine if you want to live a life as who you ARE you end up threatening everyone and society and the whole fgame of"normal"just by existing?

It never ends.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Panther, what strikes me in your narrative

(aside from the pain and frustration) is how gender and sexual desire don't appear to be related. That is eye opening to me.

Gender is so entrenched into our lives that many languages have male and female nouns.

The cat man didn't bother me, really. My kids have a lot of friends with full body tats so I'm used to the body as an art object. He looked rather nice as a cat. I hope he is physically comfortable. We humans are amazing creatures.

[undergroundpanther]

13. I hope so too

But certain things like the violation of consent of an adult or child sexually and pedophilia can DESTROY any kind of community it touches..These offenders can destroy hetero communities even churches, and bridge clubs, not just gay communities.Rapists sex offenders and pedophiles are criminals against humanity and they need to be excluded under no uncertain terms IF we want a safe sexually accepting community for people.We need to who know how to respect others boundaries and respect each others freedoms to be who they are all at the same time.A sex offender who violates others sexually cannot be trusted to do this in a healthy way and so they must be excluded I don't care what orientation or gender they are. rapists and pedophiles violate trust,boundaries and abuse power,they harm people,traumatize them and scar them sometimes for life.They cannot be trusted.

[foreigncorrespondent]

19. undergroundpanther...

...I understand what you are saying. And in a lot of ways I agree with you. I think I will address your concerns one at a time...

Some gays are sexists,they talk about"fish" etc. and have a snotty disdain for women and disregard their rights.Some lesbians are so angry at males (part of their reasons are personal and men dominate in this culture I am referring to bigotry besides those issues).
Some gays are trans-phobic.Saying that trans people bring down the gay community and make legit gays look bad.

To me, those gay men who are nothing more than misogynist pigs make the community look bad.

To me, those lesbians who are nothing but male bashers make the community look bad.

To me, those gay men and lesbians who are transphobic make the community look bad.

To me, those gay men, lesbians and transgenders who go around arguing that bi's have a choice and can claim heterosexual privilege make the community look bad.

And those bi's who claim the gay community is not accepting of them make the community look bad.

Unfortunately those who face discrimination are not immune to actually discriminating in return. It is a sad world we live in.

Not all of us fall under anything from the above. I know many people who do not discriminate against any particular person or group. But alas I do know many (right here on DU as well) who do fall into one or more of the sections above. And we as a community really do need to fix our own hypocrisies if we want to be seen a legitimate to the larger world community.

Should drag queens be shunned by the gay community because they make the gay community appear tranny friendly to hets? Should drag queens be forced to act like men and give up the sequins lest they look tranny?

Absolutely not! We are meant to be a big tent community. Many of us right here complain about how the Dem's are meant to be a big tent, yet do not include us. We ridicule the Dem's for being more repuke like each day. Isn't it about time we stopped being more heterosexual like and began to show our true diversity for the greatness it truly is?

And where do you draw the line on who's a deviant really in the gay community which is already by the hets considered"deviant" by default??

We shouldn't be drawing a line period. As I said above, we are meant to be a big tent community, let's start showing we are exactly that.

Lets look at the Leather community,is has issues.Some straights like leather is this why leather is never included in who to exclude from the Gay community? It's a question? Why are they ok they beat up each other for"pleasure".They get off on staging rape,humiliation and abuse. Transpeople don't hurt other people as their source of"pleasure"(unless they have the leather fetish) What do you make of the idea that humiliation,whipping, dominance and being a slave to someone constitutes a healthy sexuality?

Careful you are showing your own prejudice here. And it won't wash if you want to make a legitimate point.

Everyone has some sort of fetish. It is wrong to deny it. And that fetish doesn't have to be a sexual fetish either.

As for being healthier. Believe it or not BD-SM can actually bring a couple closer together. It releases a lot of stuff between the couple that might not otherwise happen. Not everything is vanilla. And showing a distaste for it like you have shows you are falling into the same trap as those you show displeasure in for being transphobic.

But alas this is the LGBTIQQ community we are talking about. The very same community that can't pull it's own act together to properly fight those who hate us.

All good points though, UP. I do agree with what you are saying. I see it a lot myself.

[undergroundpanther]

21. my issue

...I understand what you are saying. And in a lot of ways I agree with you. I think I will address your concerns one at a time...



Unfortunately those who face discrimination are not immune to actually discriminating in return. It is a sad world we live in.

Not all of us fall under anything from the above. I know many people who do not discriminate against any particular person or group. But alas I do know many (right here on DU as well) who do fall into one or more of the sections above. And we as a community really do need to fix our own hypocrisies if we want to be seen a legitimate to the larger world community.

What should be excluded from the Gay community?

I think bullies(bigots) ,pedophiles,rapists, the violators of consent and abusers of power need to be confronted and excluded.
I think it should be open season on shunning these corrupting criminals in every community.. including ours.
If you notice I said NOTHING about gender,identity ,race, sex or consensual fetish.

Should drag queens be shunned by the gay community because they make the gay community appear tyranny friendly to hets? Should drag queens be forced to act like men and give up the sequins lest they look tranny?

Absolutely not! We are meant to be a big tent community. Many of us right here complain about how the Dem's are meant to be a big tent, yet do not include us. We ridicule the Dem's for being more repuke like each day. Isn't it about time we stopped being more heterosexual like and began to show our true diversity for the greatness it truly is?

Hell yes. Mrrowrr!

And where do you draw the line on who's a deviant really in the gay community which is already by the hets considered"deviant" by default??

We shouldn't be drawing a line period. As I said above, we are meant to be a big tent community, let's start showing we are exactly that.

But we need to draw a line somewhere,for the well being of the humanity of this community for our own safety, for the protection of the vulnerable members of the community and for the ethics and dare I say it,the morality of the gay movement.
Bullies rapists and pedophiles are not gay they are criminals.

Lets look at the Leather community,is has issues.Some straights like leather is this why leather is never included in who to exclude from the Gay community? It's a question? Why are they ok they beat up each other for"pleasure".They get off on staging rape,humiliation and abuse. Trans people don't hurt other people as their source of"pleasure"(unless they have the leather fetish) What do you make of the idea that humiliation,whipping, dominance and being a slave to someone constitutes a healthy sexuality?

Careful you are showing your own prejudice here. And it won't wash if you want to make a legitimate point.

Let me explain my POV further than ,I was not clear as to what my issues are. The issues I have with the Leather community are the issues I have with the human community at large,just with a particular observation.

All throughout this country some people have faced sexual abuse as kids or in bad relationships.It has made them vulnerable.
The process of abuse sometimes in a victim's mental make up creates a process of seeking Retraumatization.This is not healthy in fact it is dangerous.Alot of people don't know about this. The leather community needs to be able to recognize this problem.
Read more about what re tramatization is about in abused people.

Endogenous opiate reward systems very likely contribute to the establishment of conditioned procedural memory in trauma. Researchers have known for decades that exposure to overwhelming trauma in combat often results in a sustained period of analgesia. Soldiers wounded in battle frequently require much lower doses of morphine than in other types of incidental injury (Beecher, 1946). Stress-induced analgesia is a well-documented phenomenon in many forms of traumatic stress (van der Kolk, Greenberg, Orr & Pittman, 1989). Release of endorphins at the time of acute stress has a distinct survival benefit. An animal ministering to his wounds due to pain at the time of aggressive, life-threatening injury would suffer significant compromise of his defensive capabilities. Endorphins also persist during freeze/immobility, rendering the animal analgesic in the face of the injury from the attack. This also has potential survival value, since the persistence of immobility in the face of painful injury might serve to end the predator�s attack behavior. In the event of lack of completion of the freeze/immobility response, however, persistent recurrent dissociation with associated endophinergic reward might well potentiate the kindled trauma reflex. Endorphinergic influences might also contribute to the phenomenon of compulsive trauma reenactment (van der Kolk, 1989).
http://www.trauma-pages.com/scaer-2001.htm


http://www.sidran.org/anna.html

This issue of endorphins is accurate I have PSTD and I used to cut myself to control symptoms,and I re traumatized too I can numb my body very well.
It took me alot of therapy to see how my past was playing over and over.
If I had been in an S/M situation at the wrong time in my recovery I may not be alive today.

There are Sadists who are ignorant of the dangers of re traumatizing someone with PSTD or Dissociation.They need to learn about this problem so victims do not retraumatize..and endanger themselves.The leather community has to learn about traumas and certain disorders that put people in danger beyond the consenting dangers of S/M.
And there are..also
Sadists with no sense of ethics who exploit this sad side effect of child abuse and bad relationships found in traumatized people in the name of"pushing boundaries"and pumping endorphins and pressuring for things outside of the "scene agreements" while sub-missives who are in altered states or having flashbacks and are hardly in a state to disagree.Pushy tops who ignore safe words until things get out of hand exist.

This subtle kind of "scene" manipulation of a traumatized person is unsafe, is selfish,it is not mastery,and it really pisses me off. This is where my distaste originates. Vulnerable people's wounds are not to be exploited by people who get off on trauma without a respect of their slaves mental health and life stories. .A real master should not exploit confused abused people's pasts and reactions to it today just because they can. I have seen people abreact in restraints. It's scary..They never came back.I wonder to myself if they are OK or alive. Ignoring an abreaction of trauma can cause a traumatized person with Dissociation or PSTD to be in extreme danger after it is over.They may not go to the psychiatric ward instead they may kill themselves in a confused state. This is what scares the crap out of me about when leather is practiced in the hands of people who are unhealthy and too risky and don't understand or do not care about the REASONS and drives working behind their own desires..


That said..
I don't care if healthy people have a fetish of leather at all, and want to explore pain/pleasure boundaries.The watchword here is a HEALTHY respectful consenting compassionate relationship ,that is what all strive for,even if it hurts.

I understand how endorphins can alter your consciousness. I am quite tattooed so I know. I have leather friends and as far as I can tell they do not go out of their way to re traumatize or violate others boundaries and take advantage of people with trauma histories. That is why I am friends with them.They know I have PSTD and they do not ask to do "scenes" with me because they know it might endanger my mental health and I agree. I have hung out at their club talking leather craft however because I do leather art and I love leather..

But hanging around in the leather community I have also seen the ugly side of it too. And there is an ugly side just like the drag queens calling women fish is ugly. Leather because of what it's all about will always tread a fine line between power,pleasure,pain,consent,abuse and boundaries in relationships.That is the attraction and the danger of it...

Some leather fetishists think they are masters,but they are not. This is because they think if they are wearing leather it means they have this unspoken permission to be a sadistic bully to anyone they think is less dominant than they think themselves are..because Some of these jackasses do this crap until they are "disciplined" by a real master,Until then they go around being assholes to people.Sometimes the real masters need to figure out a way to detect these idiots and dangerous people and discipline these creeps out of the leather community stat.

I have found when you confront these rude jerks when they act out and tell them that they are violating your consent and your boundaries they will use the excuse they thought it was a scene.No "scene" was planned..so that lie and bullshit game does not fly by me.Yet people will try it.


>Everyone has some sort of fetish. It is wrong to deny it. And that fetish >doesn't have to be a sexual fetish either.

I know I look like a cat go figure.I have pictures of felines on every wall.My house is a house of feline.

>As for being healthier. Believe it or not BD-SM can actually bring a >couple closer together. It releases a lot of stuff between the couple that >might not otherwise happen. Not everything is vanilla. And showing a >distaste for it like you have shows you are falling into the same trap as >those you show displeasure in for being transphobic.

I don't have a distaste for healthy leather between people who are not re traumatizing themselves compulsively at all.
I do have a distaste for assholes dressing up in leather and exploiting the leather community and using it as a place to abuse vulnerable people and threaten and act out scenes without consent . And because leather has these scenes and submission and domination and all as part of it's flavor it is very hard for people who are new to leather,not in the community,who are curious or just not assertive yet to speak out against very real violations of their consent.. especially if one of the masters has the hots for an asshole who's making things unsafe for the violated person(s).It gets really unsafe sometimes when politics and love affairs override sanity and safety.Politics and favoritism can make a leather bar not a safe place to play.

>But alas this is the LGBTIQQ community we are talking about. The very same >community that can't pull it's own act together to properly fight those >who hate us.

Yes. I think for the community to be effective and safe it needs to distinguish the real threats to humanity and the gay community ( like bullies, rapists, pedophiles) from bigots from the P.R.game of looking normal to hets and pretending the gay community has no problems,to acceptance of fetishes that are consenting safe and legal and act accordingly ,honestly and fearlessly.Than the gay community will be the envy of all.Because we can do what no other community can we take care of each other and do not tolerate, the abuses of power by intolerable people.

All good points though, UP. I do agree with what you are saying. I see it a lot myself.

Thanks.Take care Ok?

[foreigncorrespondent]

22. Replies...

I think bullies(bigots) ,pedophiles,rapists, the violators of consent and abusers of power need to be confronted and excluded. I think it should be open season on shunning these corrupting criminals in every community.. including ours. If you notice I said NOTHING about gender,identity ,race, sex or consensual fetish.

UP, you need to stop listening to the right wing that all pedophiles are gay. LOL Statistics show us that the majority of pedophiles are straight men. I'm not saying we don't have them. What I am saying is we don't have as many of them to really warrant the worry you are generating. And yes, I do agree they should be banished from our community completely.

Rapists. Again statistics show us that a rapist is more likely to be a straight male than a gay man or lesbian. Again, I am not saying rape doesn't happen in our community, I know better than that. But we don't have the numbers to warrant your concern. And again, any rapist should be banished from our community.

As for bullies they are in every community in every walk of life. Unfortunately their numbers are large, and it is hard to banish a bully from any community.

Bigots on the other hand. They can be shown the light with a lot of teaching, tolerance, and understanding. Especially those in our community. I have made some rethink their views of bisexuals just by talking to them and showing them just how much their words discriminate against a group with in our community.

But we need to draw a line somewhere,for the well being of the humanity of this community for our own safety, for the protection of the vulnerable members of the community and for the ethics and dare I say it,the morality of the gay movement. Bullies rapists and pedophiles are not gay they are criminals.

My answers above still stand.

All throughout this country some people have faced sexual abuse as kids or in bad relationships.

WAIT! Just stop and begin to think for a moment. Not every person in the leather community have been abused. Just like not all lesbians or gay men have been abused.

Not all people with in the leather community are going to take advantage of a survivor. Again you are showing your prejudice.

Also please put a trigger warning in your title. I happen to be a survivor and do not need to read about anything. I don't want or need the triggers when my partner(who is my main source of support is 8,000 miles from me.)

I don't care if healthy people have a fetish of leather at all, and want to explore pain/pleasure boundaries.The watchword here is a HEALTHY respectful consenting compassionate relationship ,that is what all strive for,even if it hurts.

The thing is with BD-SM they will have a trigger word. If the submissive states that trigger word, then the dominant one knows to back off and begin cooling the experience down.

It is actually quite safe. And very safe for survivors to participate in. So long as they do have a loving and trusting partner to work with.

I'm sorry if you have had a bad experience that has taken you back to childhood abuse, but remember it doesn't happen to us all. And remember your views are just that, your views, but they still remain prejudice, which is what your OP was complaining about. You can't dish it unless you are willing to receive it. And so long as you continue to dish out a serve of prejudice you cannot expect others to not do the same.

On edit: Forgot to close of a tag

[undergroundpanther]

23. You misunderstood..

I think bullies(bigots) ,pedophiles,rapists, the violators of consent and abusers of power need to be confronted and excluded. I think it should be open season on shunning these corrupting criminals in every community.. including ours. If you notice I said NOTHING about gender,identity ,race, sex or consensual fetish

UP, you need to stop listening to the right wing that all pedophiles are gay.

I NEVER SAID ALL PEDOPHILES ARE GAY Where did I eVER say that??? Some pedophiles prey on boys some on girls some on both.Lets make this clear right now . Queerness is NOT pedophilia .
I KNOW this is a fact . So don't talk down to me.Don't put words in my mouth.If you want to discuss things with me be respectful and I will respond in kind.

And yes, I do agree they should be banished from our community completely.
Agreed!

Rapists. Again statistics show us that a rapist is more likely to be a straight male than a gay man or lesbian. Again, I am not saying rape doesn't happen in our community, I know better than that. But we don't have the numbers to warrant your concern. And again, any rapist should be banished from our community.

Agreed! Rapists can rape men and women or both. Queerness is not about rape.Don't patronize me like I am some fool and put words in my mouth.It's RUDE.

As for bullies they are in every community in every walk of life. Unfortunately their numbers are large, and it is hard to banish a bully from any community.

No it isn't all that hard to stop bullies. It takes some courage tho.. you just stick up for the victims of bullies when a bully is being mean to someone and you are around. You don't by stand or giggle along with the jerk.You refuse to give a bully his culture of"tolerance"and make excuses for bullying you call them on it and do not minimize the victims pain or tell the victim to get over it. Bullies get bored with their games if they can't get what they want and leave on their own.

95 % of bully altercations stop cold when a bystander steps up and defends a victim of a bully.this is because most people don't like to be bullied.

Bigots on the other hand. They can be shown the light with a lot of teaching, tolerance, and understanding. Especially those in our community. I have made some rethink their views of bisexuals just by talking to them and showing them just how much their words discriminate against a group with in our community.

Yes that works for alot of cases. For some it does not.Keep trying,but in cases where persuasion, education and understanding does not help shunning works.



All throughout this country *some* people have faced sexual abuse as kids or in bad relationships.

WAIT! Just stop and begin to think for a moment. Not every person in the leather community have been abused. Just like not all lesbians or gay men have been abused.

I never said that every person in the leather community has been abused ! Please stop putting words in my mouth.I said SOME people, Some is not ALL.
I am Concerned about those who HAVE been abused.I was voicing my concern for THEM because they are part of the gay community too,I am part of the gay community .

Leather gay trans bi lesbian people who are not dealing with trauma don't concern me the same as victims of trauma do.

Not all people with in the leather community are going to take advantage of a survivor. Again you are showing your prejudice.


Again I NEVER said ALL leather people I said SOME. Some is not all.
As for my concern it is not prejudice. Big difference. Could your own prejudice about the issues I am raising about problems in the gay community be making a bigot of you twords me? Wondering?

Also please put a trigger warning in your title. I happen to be a survivor and do not need to read about anything. I don't want or need the triggers when my partner(who is my main source of support is 8,000 miles from me.)

Oh Ok will do. But this proves my point.. You never know WHOM is a survivor. People who recreate"scenes" need to be aware of problems.But be aware that not everyone is as healthy as you in recognizing your triggers and not everyone who has faced trauma has got a handle on their issues and what you think you can do others may not be able to do and they might think they can do it or they can be pressured into it.That is the cause for my concern.

I don't care if healthy people have a fetish of leather at all, and want to explore pain/pleasure boundaries.The watchword here is a HEALTHY respectful consenting compassionate relationship ,that is what all strive for,even if it hurts.

The thing is with BD-SM they will have a trigger word. If the submissive states that trigger word, then the dominant one knows to back off and begin cooling the experience down.

Yes that is what they SHOULD do. In good relationships that is the case. But it does not always go as planned.Not all people are trustworthy.
These types of issues about trust the gay community really needs to be concerned about and not sweep it aside as if it never happens.

It is actually quite safe. And very safe for survivors to participate in. So long as they do have a loving and trusting partner to work with.

Some people do not have loving partners they trust to do stuff with ..they are compulsive because they are not conscious of their issues and so they put themselves at risk inadvertently.

I'm sorry if you have had a bad experience that has taken you back to childhood abuse, but remember it doesn't happen to us all.

Of course not.
I know all people are NOT traumatized. Do you think I am stupid?
I am concerned about vulnerable people who may be taken advantage of.
I am a trauma victim myself and I am honest enough to admit that if I got involved with some things considered normal in the gay community it could have really messed me up.

I am concerned about other GBLTQ people with issues. I have worked with an organization that helps gays with mental illness that did support and advocacy and education on gay issues and mental illness/psych survivor issues. The gay community has been quite bigoted about the
mentally ill/survivor queers in the gay community. I have seen quite a bit of bigotry and hostility ,exclusion twords survivors of abuse,once it was admitted there was a problem .Gay people have been downright hostile to gay people with bipolar,depression schizophrenia etc in the gay community.
And I think this is mean and cruel to us.

Gays are not exempt from the problems facing humanity at large. crime,trauma,mental illness.ect.Because we are all human beings we are vulnerable on some level.
To pretend the gay community is somehow magically immune from having to deal with these issues facing humanity in general is denial and it's foolish..IMO If you don't like this perspective I say here than consider my points and quit putting words in my mouth and calling every issue I raise bigotry..

You can't dish it unless you are willing to receive it. And so long as you continue to dish out a serve of prejudice you cannot expect others to not do the same.

How is me being concerned about others safety, well being ,mental health, safety and vulnerabilities a sign of my evildoer prejudice twords gay people while I am gay myself..I don't get it??
Did you even read what I wrote? Or are you reacting?
I didn't see speaking my thoughts honesty here as dishing out anything.
I am saddened you mistake my concern for my family and raising of issues I see as problems as bigotry.

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. Ok UP...

...you lost me from here:Don't patronize me like I am some fool and put words in my mouth.It's RUDE.

I was giving you a conversation. YOU have now accused me of being rude and patronizing. I'm not. You are the one with the attitude that needs to take a dive. Don't expect me to read the rest of your words, now!

You have from your first post shown such distaste for the leather community it is not funny! You claim transphobia all the while showing your own phobias about the leather community.

In your last post you so much as slammed the entire leather community. Saying ALL of them don't give a shit about someone going through PTSD. Get a grip on reality for one moment and take a look at what you are doing and saying.

You have just bitten the hand that has given you a lot more benefit than you deserved (just go back and take a look at your OP and then your reply to me and see just how damn condescending you have been.) What have I gotten for my time and trouble? You utter rudeness that usually rears its ugly head when someone says something that is in total disagreement to you.

Like I said, and still stand by my words, if you don't want to receive it, then don't bloody well dish it out in the first place.

It is painfully obvious to this survivor that you have experienced some nasty abuse in your time and as yet are to deal with that properly. Perhaps in stead of lashing out at people who are actually listening to you and giving you the time of fucking day you should be trying to get on the road to your own healing.

One part of your last (before this) reply to me I wish to talk about with you for a moment. Show you the exact impression I received from it. Show you just how damn condescending it was. And explain to you why I never broached it in my last response to you.

You said: I don't care if healthy people have a fetish of leather at all, and want to explore pain/pleasure boundaries.

You wanna know what that says to me? It says that because I am abused I am not healthy and hence not able to explore that part of my sexual being. Do you know how damn rude that is? How do you know what I am able to stand as a person? You don't. Just because you have experienced "retraumatization" doesn't mean ALL survivors will. Just because you cannot take a BDSM scene doesn't mean ALL survivors have to miss out because it might affect you.

On top of that you demonized every single top out there, all the while lumbering every single abuse survivor as being mentally defective.

The reason I didn't broach this before was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt. But guess what? You lost that the moment you said I was being rude. How dare you! Go look at your words if you want to see what being rude is all about.

Stop playing the victim, UP, and begin playing the part of a survivor.

On edit: typo

[undergroundpanther]

25. My responses..

>...you lost me from here:Don't patronize me like I am some fool and put >words in my mouth.It's RUDE.I was giving you a conversation. YOU have now >accused me of being rude and patronizing. I'm not. You are the one with >the attitude that needs to take a dive. Don't expect me to read the rest >of your words, now!

Than don't read my words.Fine with me.
Nobody forces you to reply to my posts,but you.
I will say what I need to say and ask what I ask regardless of you or anyone else's reactions to it.This is what having courage with your freedom of speech is all about...

AGAIN..
In my original posts I used the word *SOME* when describing the leather community for a reason.I said _SOME_ people to avoid generalizing with the word _all_ because I did not want to say all people had these issues.. Yet you insisted I said all people do. That offended me because I was being careful about generalizing words and still you accused me of it.You went so far as to ignore what I was actually saying too.

>You have from your first post shown such distaste for the leather >community it is not funny! You claim trans phobia all the while showing >your own phobias about the leather community.

I was not being funny .Nor was I being "distasteful" or "phobic". I was voicing my own CONCERN about how "SOME* people might not be safe or how*some*people get hurt by having their trust and consent disregarded. I am upset and concerned about abuse of power.There have been cases where people have been murdered in an S/M context.That is something that can endanger the GBLTQI community's legitimacy to the unaware ignorant straight vanilla public..If you are concerned about how me voicing my concerns impacts the P.R. of the Gay community in general ..Instead of getting defensive or censoring me like Apollo would do. I suggest we get honest and fix the problems and quit playing games and denying it exists..

I never said _ALL_ people and NEVER made such a generalization at any time in my posts. .

>In your last post you so much as slammed the entire leather community. >Saying ALL of them don't give a shit about someone going through PTSD.

AGAIN I REPEAT...
I never said ALL or the ENTIRE leather community has trauma issues I never said a person cannot heal trauma through Leather ..I said SOME people in the leather community may be ignorant of trauma issues in SOME people, and SOME people are unscrupulous and may take advantage of people in different stages of healing.SOME is not the same word as ALL or Entire.
SOME is a totally different word with a totally different meaning than all , entire or YOU personally.

Why are you so defensive you misread everything I am saying?This is frustrating.
I know what my own intentions are,YOU cannot you can only infer it.So don't try to read my mind ok?.If I am unclear in how I express my intent sometimes it happens.Especially in limited mediums like the web .We all miscommunicate somtimes..The words in my post and my words that you quoted were NOT ever intended to be a "slam" on the entire leather community" ,
Understand me? None of my concerns were directed to you it was not about YOU and your leather situation personally..It was about MY observations .MY questions.


You are reading meanings into my words that I did not even INTEND to say. I think it is your own defensiveness and projections speaking through you that is making these assumptions about my intentions and reading more into my words than what I put there myself,You are projecting your issues into my words this is what is annoying to me here. I know I never intended to "slam the entire leather community" with what I said . Either you have really misread me and we are miscommunicating big time or you are very defensive about the issues I brought up here for some reason unknown to me and you are projecting someone else who was a jackass to you about this issue before, onto me as if I was them.Please stop it.

>You have just bitten the hand that has given you a lot more benefit than >you deserved (just go back and take a look at your OP and then your reply >to me and see just how damn condescending you have been.)

And you think you haven't been condescending Yourself? LOL,
I never asked anything of you here. You chose to respond to me and I responded to you.Simple as that.To me you are just another poster among around 80,000 members here posting their stuff.I want nothing from you.I expect nothing from you. I don't know you as a person..You have nothing to offer me here that another poster can't do too which is reply to me.A conversation online is not anything more than a conversation between strangers.It's an exchange of ideas, questions concerns etc.Easy come easy go.. Lets get real here,You and I are total strangers.

Regardless of all that I am not here to be treated rude by a stranger,I am here to speak my thoughts and listen to other thinkers I find are useful to me or who offer me something because they choose to for their own reasons.That's why *some* people post stuff online. It is frustrating to have my posts misread and words put in my mouth.I don't tolerate such nonsense from strangers or friends.I have very clear boundaries and this sadly offends defensive people without clear boundaries .Especially if the defensive respondent does not know how to have boundaries for them self and reinforce them for them self for some reason .. So,Yes I do bite the hands that cross my boundaries,and play crazy making games especially when they attempt to be a jerk to me and put words in my mouth that I did not say ,are dishonest,defensive and projecting.

>What have I gotten for my time and trouble? You utter rudeness that >usually rears its ugly head when someone says something that is in total >disagreement to you.

I never disagreed with your points really ..in fact I agreed with pretty much everything you said before..I just added my own concerns ,questions and experiences. That is what upset you you took it personally.For some reason don't want me to even talk about MY concerns.You are not responding to my concerns you are being too defensive to even consider it. I am not attacking the leather community at all nor am I attacking you personally about your path to health Understand?

I will say it again...
I am voicing MY concern about *some* people with certain issues who misuse their power... and you take this as a personal attack on you?..??WTF? Why are you so defensive? I asked some tough questions that bothered you BFD. No need to play martyr with me I never asked you for any of that baggage of yours.. LOok From the beginning of this thread..it was YOUR time and your efforts you wasted because you chose to spend it here. That is not MY problem or my fault you wasted your time and your efforts. It is your issue and your responsibility alone,to decide what you do with your own time and efforts.You can choose to waste it here or not. It's not my concern or in my power to control what you decide to do when I put up a post here.
This is a boundary issue in YOU and I am not responsible for your time or effort wa stings. Ignore me I will do likewise,but that does not mean the conversation on this stops on my part because you don't post here.You cannot control what I say here,only what YOU do or say or don't do or say in response.Understand? This is not your thread to control what is discussed here if it is not breaking the rules of conduct of DU..

>Like I said, and still stand by my words, if you don't want to receive it, >then don't bloody well dish it out in the first place.
>It is painfully obvious to this survivor that you have experienced some >nasty abuse in your time and as yet are to deal with that properly. >Perhaps in stead of lashing out at people who are actually listening to >you and giving you the time of fucking day you should be trying to get on > the road to your own healing.


You don't know me, you don't even accurately read my posts so don't pull the mental illness card on me until you know more about me first.I am not "lashing out" at you. You are defensive and you think I am lashing out because you are misreading my words and reading into my words intentions and meanings I never said or even meant to say. You don't know where I am in my own therapy so don't assume I am not healing myself simply because I have clear boundaries and strong feelings or controversial opinions I stand by...I don't pretend to know how healed you are personally so don't play armchair shrink with me OK.I am talking about some problems I have observed among *SOME* in the gay community. My critiques are NOT about you personally..and my critiques are not encompassing every single person in the gay community either..It's MY concern about some problems I have observed in SOME people in MY community...If my concerns don't apply to you than it has NOTHING to do with you personally.Sheesh.
Playing armchair shrink because you are defensive and pissed off at me just makes you look rude to my BTW.And I also stand by my ORIGINAL WORDS in all MY posts (not the rewordings in your replies to me)I stand by the words I am saying now too.And likewise:Don't dish it out and it won't be thrown back on you.

>One part of your last (before this) reply to me I wish to talk about with >you for a moment. Show you the exact impression I received from it. Show >you just how damn condescending it was. And explain to you why I never >broached it in my last response to you.

>You said: I don't care if healthy people have a fetish of leather at all, >and want to explore pain/pleasure boundaries.

>You wanna know what that says to me? It says that because I am abused I am >not healthy and hence not able to explore that part of my sexual being. Do >you know how damn rude that is?

I said NOTHING about YOU or your choices YOU make for YOU.. in that sentence.It wasn't personal.Some people feel safe with S/M and some don't ,for different reasons.Everyone is different. I know some people enjoy leather as you do. Good for YOU.. Explore yourself all you want.I hope you find your happiness there!

Be aware I *never* said to you that you can't explore your own sexuality your own way if it HELPS you heal.

If BSDM HELPS you heal than obviously it is HEALTHY for YOU by default! No problem for YOU. I am aware there are MANY paths to healing. One does not have to take all the paths out there or be pressured into them to heal and explore them self.

You misread me..I said in that sentence if people use BSDM It is fine with me I do not care if they are into it and safe with it and find health that way.It's not my concern what healthy users do. Healthy means people who are not in danger of a mental breakdown from BSDM exploring,people that do not know what they can handle and go too far and get hurt.YOU are not one of those people,good for you.

However *some* people* are not always honest about their own issues,defenses, limits and responsibilities and they get hurt or they go too far and hurt someone else and misread signals.,and it is because they are different than you and lacked self awareness or something..

It is obvious to me that you cannot deal with the reality some people are different than you are on this and have a different POV and different experiences with leather.I seems you are frightened by even the thought that others are unlike yourself who are exploring and could be WOUNDED by BSDM and unscrupulous masters.

You just ignored all my concerns and made pretend it as an attack on you personally. You ignored my concerns and pretended I make generalizations I am not making. Why are you doing this? Don't you realize different people are different from me and from you? Don't you realize my concern is about people who are hurt by what makes you healthy because they are different than you?

>How do you know what I am able to stand as a person? You don't. Just >because you have experienced "retraumatization" doesn't mean ALL survivors >will. Just because you cannot take a BDSM scene doesn't mean ALL survivors >have to miss out because it might affect you.

I agree.
But likewise you do not know what I am like as a person either.Lets be honest here. We are STRANGERS.
Just because you yourself DID NOT experience retraumatization
does not mean others won't or can't. Don't assume things about me because BSDM has been a good experience for you . Yes it is not my bag and I have seen others get hurt by it. This bothered me. It concerned me.This is why I even bring this question up. I don't think that everyone else involved in leather should just be cavalier or paranoid about these issues. It does no good to pretend it cannot happen and go into defensive denial or go the other extreme and deny themselves exploration that might be good for them because of unwarranted fear.There is a way of looking at this issue without denial,defensiveness,assuming generalizations or paranoia you know.

What I am actually suggesting to new people getting into BDSM that they KNOW THEMSELVES somewhat.KNOW their own limits,and what they desire clearly,honestly. I am suggesting the community protect each other and play SAFE. I am suggesting don't trust anyone to know themselves just because they say they are a master or a submissive. SOME people have both desires and issues and negotiating this territory is tricky business if you are a person that has issues, defenses or fears.Everyone is different and self deception can happen at any time..That is what I am saying. How is that offensive?

>On top of that you demonized every single top out there, all the while >lumbering every single abuse survivor as being mentally defective.

I never demonized all tops. I do not see anything wrong with safe BSDM.
I do however resent tops who take advantage of their power with vulnerable people.It happens makes BSDM in SOME situations unsafe.

>The reason I didn't broach this before was simply giving you the benefit >of the doubt. But guess what? You lost that the moment you said I was >being rude. How dare you! Go look at your words if you want to see what >being rude is all about.

Hmm obviously you don't want to see your part in this conversation and blame me.. I'll say it AGAIN..I NEVER said ALL leather people are victims of trauma and ALL leather people are mentally ill !! YOU said that in reply to me pretending that was my wording. This is deceptive,it is called putting words in other peoples mouths. Or it could be a case of not reading my replies adequately because you are defensive . This _IS_ and appears rude..

And if you are a top and you confuse this discussion with some scene in your mind..to the astute observer you have already made my points about how games of power can confuse *some* people.I am not asking for "discipline" from the likes of ANYONE. So Don't try it.I don't play domination or submission games in my relationships, but I am aware of the dynamics of people who do play these games and how these games SOMETIMES can bleed over into any other non s/m oriented relationships THEY have because of their S/M way of seeing relationships.(like posts online) It's not wrong *some* relate this way,it's just there in*some* people and because of this difference it requires a sort of "translation" to avoid miscommunication..Defenses are another matter altogether.

>Stop playing the victim, UP, and begin playing the part of a survivor.

I am a survivor this is why I am calling you on being rude,because I have the inner strength to ask questions that you are too defensive to discuss honestly I am voicing my concerns. You are putting words in my mouth and not looking at what I am concerned about.Concern and questions however uncomfortable they might be are not an attack. By my observation your behaviors in this discussion .I can see you are no "top".You are trying to "top from the bottom" by this provocation.I have observed in the leather community some tops find this sort of thing offensive.So,if you do not like to be called on your rude behaviors than stop being rude to me and misrepresenting my words because you are defensive and upset about the issues I am raising here..

You are now on ignore.I appears to me you are unable to discuss this issue. Why I dunno.Either way I am done with you.This has been a monumental waste of my time apparently.And I am taking responsibility for it. Consider yourself ignored Your responses will not be responded to. I hope that you someday can understand what is the root of desire and what it means to you,honestly.

Hopefully any other GBLTQI people online who are reading this thread , will not be so defensive from my questions. I hope you all will consider my concerns seriously,and hear my critiques and not read opinions into my posts I never said and do not have.I would hope people don't take what I say personally or as broad generalizations. I would hope this inspires more gay people and leather people,all of the different kinds of people to ask even more and deeper questions about what types of ethics and codes of conduct and the types of relationships they may want for themselves,and each other..I hope readers look inward and observe outward to become stronger in themselves and find boundaries that can help make the community even better for all of us involved in it. It seems growing pains can hurt as communities evolve and begin to further define who they are in ever clearer ways...

If anyone else wishes to look at these issues honestly and decides to not be defensive and read into what I am saying..feel free..I am willing to discuss it..

All the best to everyone..Panther.

[foreigncorrespondent]

27. Oh boy!

And you think you haven't been condescending Yourself?

I just got condescension from YOU.

It is obvious to me that you cannot deal with the reality some people are different than you are on this and have a different POV and different experiences with leather.I seems you are frightened by even the thought that others are unlike yourself who are exploring and could be WOUNDED by BSDM and unscrupulous masters.

Really? Is that so? Is it also obvious to you that you are actually making assumptions on me? Is it also obvious to you that that one paragraph speaks volumes about the victim mentality you have?

Don't assume things about me because BSDM has been a good experience for you

When did I say I was involved in the BDSM scene? My, my, have you merely assumed this because I happen to know what I am talking about?

I have the inner strength to ask questions that you are too defensive to discuss honestly

No, UP, what you have is the ability and rudeness to sit there and call someone dishonest through a computer.

There have been cases where people have been murdered in an S/M context.

Really? Funny how you never hear about it. Links?

I think it is your own defensiveness and projections speaking through you that is making these assumptions about my intentions and reading more into my words than what I put there myself,You are projecting your issues into my words this is what is annoying to me here.

Oh get a grip! I wasn't the one who began a thread speaking about the phobias from with in the community, all the while spewing forth my own phobias, you did. I just happened by and have called you on your own prejudice and from what I can tell, you haven't liked your own prejudice being called on like that.

You are reading meanings into my words that I did not even INTEND to say.

Then why did you say them if you didn't intend to?

Either you have really misread me and we are miscommunicating big time or you are very defensive about the issues I brought up here for some reason unknown to me and you are projecting someone else who was a jackass to you about this issue before, onto me as if I was them.

The only person I see who is in defence mode around here is you. As I said above, you have not liked your own prejudice being called out. You have gone as far as to deny it, by claiming you are worried about the abuse side of things.

and you take this as a personal attack on you?..??WTF? Why are you so defensive?

No! I take you saying I am rude and patronizing as a personal attack. After all, you directed that at me.

What I take issue at here is the fact that you address phobias found with in our community all the while showing your own prejudice towards a community with in our community.

This is a boundary issue in YOU and I am not responsible for your time or effort wa stings.

Don't assume to know my boundaries, please.

Playing armchair shrink because you are defensive and pissed off at me just makes you look rude to my BTW.

Number one: I'm not the one who has been playing armchair shrink here. That is all you, sweetheart.

Number two: Makes me look rude? You really don't see just how offensive your attack on the leather community has been, do you?

If BSDM HELPS you heal than obviously it is HEALTHY for YOU by default!

Again, you have assumed I am into BDSM.

Tell ya what, UP. Next time you go to attack the leather community make a thread just for that. Don't hide the initial attack amongst a load of gibberish you obviously don't believe in.

[undergroundpanther]

26. Back to the orginal question.

What do you think is the best responses to deal with issues of misuse of power, and the conflict of issues that can get some people hurt in the leather community?.(if it does not apply to you it does not apply to you.)

How do you think bigotry (including bigotry twords gays with mental illness who are NOT sex offenders) can be confronted and stopped inside the Gay community? How can a broad reaching solidarity be reinforced when bigots undermine it at the same time? You cannot demand the scapegoated "flavors of gay"(like Transgender,fur,BSDM,ect.)and gays with issues(fat,old,poor,mentally ill,disabled and gay) to shut up and take the scorn of thier peers and be content to be second class outsiders to the gay community this is not fair to them...especially it's unfair if these different people that are excluded are NOT sex offenders, NOT abusing power or NOT abusing trust or being bigots or bullies to other gays.
Gays are people and they have all the diversity,talents,gifts,desires and problems like people everywhere have in general.

So what is currently being done to deal with this kind of stuff in areas where you live? The Het community deals with these same issues because they are HUMAN problems for the most part and too often they do badly..And when that het bigoty ends up killing gay people, you all know where it ends up. I don't want the gay commuunity to rationalize gay scapegoating of it's own(transpeople or mentally ill gays ect).Because who knows who might get hurt down the road, if the het community becaomes more homophobic,irrational and dangerous..

Lastly There is the issue of P.R. it will always be an issue as long as homophobia exists and transgender people and gay people are murdered for being who they are. So how can people deal with that fact,that the world is hostile to us still, and still be able to get honest about bigots who are gay and deal with certain controversial problems in the gay community at the same time without censoring these questions or pretending these issues will just go away if they are ignored or rationalized or because some are unable to look at the questions deeply and tend to side track a discussion because they are defensive among other things?

These are tough questions.
Not easy to answer.
But there has to be a way to look at it.
And deal with it.

Any thoughts?