Question from straight guy about gay pride parade...

[Harper_is_Bush]

As a preamble to my question let me say that I understand the significance of pride day. I know it has importance on many levels and can be critical to those who may be newly struggling with thier orientation reality.

My question is one of cold politics:

Why do some gays get up on floats and behave in ways that are overtly sexual?

I know the hetro world has overt sexuality going on all the time..everywhere, so it *shouldn't* be a big deal...but gays are attempting to overcome perceptions that stem from misinformation and predjudice...so I think purposely provocative behaviour which is literally put on main street doesn't help.

It's my humble opinion that the sexual parade stuff is harmful to the political cause. I'm really interested to know if I'm wrong and why.

thx.

[marmar]

1. Why should a Gay Pride parade be subject...

the approval or disapproval of straight people? It's not about them.

[Harper_is_Bush]

3. The question is broader than that...

I agree with that you've said.

However, the reality is that a GP parade IS about those people in the sense that it takes place typically (in my city anyway) on a Saturday afternoon right through downtown in front of those people.

The images created by the parade are important - in a cold political light.

[MADem]

7. It's the old "know your PLACE" theme, rearing it;s head

There's often a curious demand by the majority for the minority to define themselves in accordance with the greater group...even if the purpose of the minority celebration, demonstration, or action is not to please the majority, but to celebrate, or make a point within or about their own community, or even to protest.

Remember the 'dirty hippies' of the Vietnam protest era? If ONLY they cut their hair and wore a suit and tie, we'd listen to them, they said. Same with the Black Panthers, or other interest groups.

CONFORM, and we may not love you, but we won't hate you as much! (MAYBE....!)

[msongs]

2. all humans do things that are overtly sexual. nothing special to

see here so move along.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/chinamart.htm

[Kali]

4. If you would just stop acting so .... you know.....

black, it would help your cause. so.....female....so....Jewish....



see where I am going with this? Not saying you are being offensive, but the reasoning can be used so easily to oppress. Stop acting "gay" so the straight assholes will accept you. - but then what does THAT mean?

[Yupster]

5. I don't know?

what does acting gay mean?

All the gay people I know act pretty much just like all the non-gay people I know.

To me wearing S+M getup and spanking each other with leather whips on the street is not acting gay. I think my gay friends and customers would find that behvior just as weird as my straight ones.

[Harper_is_Bush]

9. A majority of gay people..

..don't get up on a moving platform on a weekend afternoon and take a sexually sugestive shower with a g-string on.

That's not "acting gay" to me and my gay friends agree. Of course, they're not representative of all gays.
I've had this discussion before and am not bringing it up lightly.

The opinion that gays should stay at home and keep quiet is going to be used to oppress by those interested in oppression, regardless of anything.
My question is purely political.

[iamjoy]

13. There Is A Difference, I Think

By its very nature, homosexuality is to many people about sex, and that is what makes homosexuals "different" than heterosexuals.

As for acting one way or another, and applying that toward any ethnic group or minority:
* Native American - we have turned many of the stereotyped aspects of their culture into entertainment at sports games.
* Female - women ARE looked down upon for being "noisy" feminists, including by some of their own gender who claim to want equal rights.
* Jewish - imagine the reaction if a group of Hassids (in the long black coats with the hats and "payes" marched down the street holding up biblical passages regarding the dietary laws.
* African American - most of the stereotypes about them simply aren't accurate, so I can't think of what aspects they would display in a parade. If you wish to make the case that homosexuals are not obsessed with sex as many heterosexuals believe, then such displays at a gay pride parade would be no different than an African American proudly "demonstrating" a criminal act, or being a Deadbeat Dad or Welfare Mom.

People are very funny. A good person can accept homosexuals as people, but we have not come far enough that they still don't get icked out by the whole sex thing. These "in your face" with the sexuality displays at Gay Pride parades remind people of the part they would like to forget.

Anyway, some of the loudest voices against Gay Pride displays are also against heterosexual displays of sexuality.

[Harper_is_Bush]

14. Good post. Except for the African American analogy. n/t

[Kali]

16. maybe I wasn't clear.

I think Maddem #4 put it better. I didn't mean acting crazy was gay, I meant the thinking "it would help your cause if you would just behave/conform to what the majority is comfortable with" can be used to keep people down.

Not saying that is what the OP meant, but the thinking can go that way. I agree sometimes outrageous, blatant, in-your-face behavior can be questioned for the political realities (does it help the "cause"?) but my point was the direction the question can take is shut up and know your place if you want to move forward at all - usually this advice comes not from within a movement but from the folks in power.


(just going through this in a small struggle myself - just got told to play nice and basically kiss the asses of some people in a position of power, so that they might ALLOW me to have a spot at the table)

[shenmue]

6. Consider Mardi Gras...

Straight people and gay alike do some pretty weird things there. Same for New Year's, etc. Any big party, you'll see some people acting crazy. It's not like straight people never show off their sexuality.

I think some people have a problem with overt sexuality of any kind.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I understand your point

and I have no answer for you, really. We do hear from some folks that homosexuality is not about sex. I'm going to be interested in hearing opinions of folks in this community.

I have had many gay friends in the past and over the years the ones I formed lasting friendships with were pretty solidly in relationships and I related to that. The ones who were overtly promiscuous, and there were a few, I had less in common with. This was in the 80's and with one exception that group is gone now. They have passed away.

My line of work (I am an art teacher) and my avocation (singing) brought me in contact with lots of gay folks over the years, but lately I just know a few couples. I don't know if that is indicative of changes in the community, or a function of my age.

[IntravenousDemilo]

63. Well.....

No, homosexuality isn't only about sex, but if anyone tries to tell you flatly that it's NOT about sex, period, then they're full of shit. By definition, if homosexuality had no man-to-man or woman-to-woman sexual aspect, it wouldn't be terribly homosexual, would it?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. I have a second response to this

when you say "overtly sexual" do you mean just bumps and grinds and kissing, embracing? Because you can see that on MTV.

But if they are dropping their pants and that kind of thing, then that isn't a good thing to do in a parade, I'd think.

Also, you have to ask what the purpose of the parade is to that community. Are they parading to say 'accept us' or are they just celebrating and getting together? I'd assume the latter is probably true.

[Harper_is_Bush]

11. I've never heard of anyone dropping pants

or "that kind of thing" in a pride parade!
That would get them arrested, gay or not.

I agree the purpose of the parade to the gay community is important.

Maybe I'm wrong to think that the parade has any political intent at all. I thought there was a purpose to having a public parade beyond just celebration.

Am I wrong to think about the perhaps unintended political side of the parade?

[IntravenousDemilo]

64. Ever hear of the TNT Men?

Most years, the "Totally Naked Toronto Men", most if not all of whom are gay, march in the Toronto Pride parade, but not totally nude -- sometimes they wear fig-leaves, sometimes just cock rings, sometimes just sandals (to get around local bylaws against TOTAL nudity, which in any case are a little looser during Pride Week -- I mean, in the gay village around Church and Wellesley, you can see any number of men in leather chaps with their asses hanging out).

The TNT Men used to get hassled, but they've persisted, and now they're pretty much allowed to do (and shake) their thang. If the men had sexier bodies, it might be considered a bit more sexualy charged, but since they mostly haven't, when they go by, it's more like "Oh, that's...um...nice... Next?"

In other words, nudity is no big thing once you get used to it. I'm not about to go traipsing up Yonge street in my altogether, and nor would I if I looked like Brad Pitt, but that's just me. Different strokes...

[niallmac]

12. Doesn't this question spill over into the identity of the Dem Party?

Some are so upset that progressive loonys risk marginalizing the party. Some ask "Should not all Dems behave like suits in order to get their liberal ideas across to a broader audience?"
I think we underestimate the ability of people to tolerate difference when we do that. I think there are lots of straight laced folks who can live life as they feel they should and at the same time look at Dikes on Bikes in a San Francisco Gay Pride parade and say 'Oh My!' and simply continue on with their lives. The Christian Right Nazi's are not any more of a template for straight people than
are most popular gay cliches a common denominator for the entire 'gay community' whatever that is.
Just the way I see it, that's all.

[Sapphocrat]

22. Get back to me...

...when LGBTs get scapegoated again for the next election the Dems lose.

Tolerance (I no longer hope for actual acceptance) is 90% lip service. I think we overestimate the ability of people to "tolerate" diversity, especially amidst their own ranks.

Sure, lots of straight folks can move past the "shock" of Dykes on Bikes (or whatever rattles their mindset) -- as long as it doesn't affect them. Or think it doesn't.

No, the Chistianazis don't represent straight people at large. I just wish a lot of straight people could know how it would feel if everybody else thought they did.

Good catch re "the entire gay community." Why does hardly anyone understand the LGBT "community" is mind-bogglingly diverse?

If we weren't, we wouldn't use acronyms like LGBTQQI -- we would just use the letter "G".

[niallmac]

30. I know. If I had to defend my Polyanna version of the public in court

I'd lose. I am not gay so any attempt on my part to say I 'feel your pain' is BS. I am me however, with gay friends in the grave, gay friends moving the hell away from here because it is so
intolerant. It is not openly intolerant here. It is insidiously intolerant in that syrupy way, in that fabric woven floating in the air constantly kind of way that is designed to slowly, without embarrassing anyone let the gay person feel 'unwelcome' way.

People weren't cooking Semitics in their ovens in 1920's Germany, true, but they weren't in the streets defying the government in the 1930's either. Everyone is focused on their own survival. The thing that can save all of us IMHO in these most dangerous times
is a sense of community. If the Dems can convince the blue collar worker victim of financial corporate apartheid that the discriminated gay will one day be the discriminated white straight guy then we are getting somewhere. It's like a Union. British Air shut down because the kitchen workers walked out. That's the way it's supposed to happen!

I certainly did not mean to sound naive. I am not. Sometimes it's hard not to shit my pants when I see what is happening around here. I do not feel safe either.

[Sapphocrat]

68. You've got a way with words.

"...insidiously intolerant in that syrupy way, in that fabric woven floating in the air..."

How can you think "I feel your pain" would be B.S. coming from you? You may not be the direct target of the anti-gay brigades, but I take it you've got your own parallel issue(s) (besides just being a modern-day liberal) that make you feel unsafe. My feeling is that your understanding is, apart the obviously cerebral, inherent. Your understanding is below the skin.

In other words, you get it. You totally get it.

Thank you for expressing that. I wish everyone understood it as you do.

P.S. You didn't sound naive in your first post, either. :)

[Sapphocrat]

15. You answer a question for me first.

What is this overtly sexual custom of young women exposing their breasts in exchange for a string of beads at Mardi Gras? Is this some sort of mating ritual?

It really makes the heterosexual community look bad, you know. I suppose it may be just a small minority of heterosexuals who engage in this behavior, but these people know they're going to be on the evening news -- and many of them willingly appear in those "Girls Gone Wild" videos sold on late-night infommercials every night of the week.

Is this the kind of image the heterosexual community wants to convey?

This beads-for-breasts thing is just giving the Right more ammunition for the "Katrina was God's punishment to New Orleans" argument. Of course, I don't believe any such thing -- but I'm a lot more liberal and understanding of your straight lifestyle than a lot of gay people are.

In fact, some of my best friends are straight. I don't care what you do behind closed doors (although I admit the thought of male-female sex kinda grosses me out) -- but must you parade your heterosexuality in the streets like that? We already tolerate your public displays of hand-holding and kissing (not to mention that we put up with a growing number of pro-hetero television shows that push the idea that straight sex is perfectly natural -- like "Desperate Housewives," and "Boston Legal"). Why do you have to keep forcing your ways down our throats? I'm afraid your militant heterosexuality is going to blow up in your faces in the very near future.

If you heteros ever expect me to support you politically (I'm thinking, oh, pro-choice here, even though abortion has absolutely no impact on my life, and frankly seems to be just a "wedge issue" that's costing the Democratic party a lot of support), you might think about how you can reign in the more... well, flamboyant heteros in your midst.

Oh, and what's this other annual sex ritual I've heard so much about over the years? Something about Ft. Lauderdale... and spring break...

[Harper_is_Bush]

17. Your analogy is limited

Those women are not out there officially representing any particular group, for one thing.

Secondly, it's a drunken party in a single city conducted mostly at night.

Gay pride parades are across the world in the middle of the afternoon. There is a political element to pride day, no?

[Sapphocrat]

19. So is yours.

You mean you really don't see the double standard? You're not hearing what I hear every day of my life?

OK, we'll play this exchange "straight" (so to speak).

Gay people who ride floats are not out there officially representing any particular group, either. The Mexican-American contingents don't represent the gay-Jew contingents. The lesbian-moms and gay-dads groups don't represent Project Open Hand. Et cetera, et cetera. The only group that represents me is the binational-couples-involuntarily-separated-from-their-foreign-born-lovers group (and there is one).

Why don't I complain about Log Cabin Republicans being allowed to march? They don't represent me, and that's certainly not the image of gay people I want conveyed to the rest of the world.

It's whoever you choose to focus on that will form the basis of who or what represents LGBT people. You're buying into what you see on TV.

Secondly, it's a party (not all drunken, as the clean-and-sober crowd is a much larger faction of the LGBT community than you could ever know) -- and we're not there to win your approval.

No, it's not in a single city -- but if you want to start quantifying things, we could go well beyond Mardi Gras in New Orleans and Spring Break in Ft. Lauderdale. Let's start with drunken frat parties that go on every night, in every city, and are very visible to the rest of us (especially when yet another pledge dies during hazing).

Gay pride parades are across the world in the middle of the afternoon -- and so are Billy Graham revivals, for that matter, the likes of which happen a lot more often than once a year. So? What difference does the time of day make?

Certainly there's a political element to pride day -- if you as an observer choose to notice it. I invite you to visit the after-parade booths and listen to the after-parade speakers, instead of focusing on the sensationalistic.

Your turn.

[Harper_is_Bush]

20. I didn't provide an analogy.

I'm sorry this isn't formatted well, I've put some of your comments in quotes and responded...

"You mean you really don't see the double standard?"

Yes, I see it.

"It's whoever you choose to focus on that will form the basis of who or what represents LGBT people. You're buying into what you see on TV."

I'm not buying into anything. I'm telling you that many people have very limited exposure to gay people, and the parade is a big part of that limited exposure. And to them the parade is a political act by the gay community.

"No, it's not in a single city -- but if you want to start quantifying things, we could go well beyond Mardi Gras in New Orleans and Spring Break in Ft. Lauderdale. Let's start with drunken frat parties that go on every night, in every city, and are very visible to the rest of us (especially when yet another pledge dies during hazing)."

None of those are seen as a political act by other Americans/Canadians.

"So? What difference does the time of day make?"

The audience.

"Certainly there's a political element to pride day -- if you as an observer choose to notice it. I invite you to visit the after-parade booths and listen to the after-parade speakers, instead of focusing on the sensationalistic."

I have, often, thankyou.
The reality though is that the majority of the population will not. All they will see is the sensationalistic....the guy under a showerhead in the g-string rubbing his thighs and sticking out his tounge at them.

[Sapphocrat]

23. OK, you didn't make an analogy.

And I'm not going to play this game with you all night -- I'm tired beyond words of having to explain, defend, justify, and validate anything any other gay person does, as if s/he represented the entire "community" (of which there is none, any more than there is a single "straight community").

You see what you want to see, and you perceive it as you will perceive it.

Just two more questions for you:

Why does the time of day bother you so much? It sounds as if we should only come out under cover of darkness, so as not to offend anyone.

Why does this issue interest you so much? Are you worried about LGBTs dragging the Dem party down before the next election or something? Usually the old "Why do you have to flaunt your sexuality?" question comes up more frequently around election time.

P.S. Drunken frat parties may not be seen as a political act -- but they certainly cause me to worry about the mindset of the college students of today, who will be running my world tomorrow.

On edit: Stupid typo.

[Harper_is_Bush]

40. The time of day is significant because

you mentioned Mardis Gras as an equal to the parade in terms of overt sexuality, and I made the point that Mardis Gras is at night.

Seeing people being very sexually suggestive is not something I think my 5 year old is ready for, for example. How many 5 year olds are at Mardis Gras in the evening? I really don't know. I do know that many get the opportunity to see gay pride parades, often inadvertantly.

"Why does this issue interest you so much? Are you worried about LGBTs dragging the Dem party down before the next election or something?"

Hardly. It feels like you're being overly hostile towards me, and I see no reason for it.
Do you feel that I should not ask a question about the gay pride parade or express an opinion about it?

[IntravenousDemilo]

66. Mardi Gras is a full-day celebration, not just at night.

Have you seen pictures of the Mardi Gras Parade in Rio, for instance? The one that happens during the day? Those people are practically naked -- no prudes, they -- and I'll bet a great many of them are straight.

[Sapphocrat]

67. Grow a skin.

You, an alleged heterosexual, walk into a LGBT forum and ask a classic "When did you stop beating your wife?"-style question -- i.e., "Why do some gays get up on floats and behave in ways that are overtly sexual?" -- and when you get well-thought-out answers you don't seem to want (what do you want? for all of us to agree with you that gay people should curb whatever it is you perceive as "overtly sexual" behavior?), you argue with the very people whose opinions you are soliciting.

Everyone here -- including me -- has answered your question with thought and respect, regardless of how offensively you put it. You may not see it as offensive; I do. The way you frame your questions is patently judgmental; right out of the gate, we're "overtly sexual" and "provocative." Now you're back to "overt sexuality," plus "sexually suggestive." You're stuck in "overt," "provocative," and "suggestive" overdrive, and, after reading the rest of your posts here, the only conclusion I can come to is that you are offended by same-sex behavior, period.

If you can't see how I came to that conclusion, then you've got blinders on -- or you don't have any close LGBT friends or family you feel comfortable with, or truly accept (as oppose to "tolerate").

As for being "overly hostile" toward you, you're reading something into it that simply isn't there. Believe me, you haven't seen "hostile" out of me; if you had, you'd know the difference, immediately. Maybe you just don't care for my attitude, which is up-front and pull-no-punches. I can't afford to play polite word games with anybody who (seems to) ask a genuine question about the LGBT community.

Maybe you prefer the polite approach. That's unfortunate. The upshot is: You can't ask such a "provocative" question (and, believe me, it is "provocative," in the truest sense of "provoking"), then cry when somebody calls you on your own crystal-clear prejudice (your mind was already made up that behavior at LGBT parades is "overtly sexual," which to you is inappropriate) that was formed long before you ever asked your initial question.

In my first response to you, I gave you credit for being able to recognize what you were doing by using pointed humor. Don't insult my intelligence by playing dumb, and then try to shift focus onto some stunningly trivial (and incorrect) argument about how the time of day has anything to do with it.

So, gay people offend you? Don't bring your five-year-old near us then. But to imply, very clearly, that children in general may be damaged by the sight of a (gasp!) naked ass also suggests, just as clearly, that we really need to keep any physical display of sexuality behind closed doors.

Frankly, I don't think you give kids much credit. You're the one flustered by dirty dancing on parade floats; maybe what upsets you is that you're the one who's going to have to explain anything "unseemly" to your kid.

The thing that scares me is that you seem to have an awfully narrow definition of what is "overtly sexual" behavior. You cannot honestly tell me that you have ever seen a gay man giving a blow job on a float, or a lesbian demonstrating the use of a strap-on. In fact, you said yourself, "I've never heard of anyone dropping pants or 'that kind of thing' in a pride parade!" So now that we've established that you have never witnessed explicit sexual activity at Pride, what it is you find so inappropriate?

What you do witness is nothing worse than the same gyrations you'd see in a dance scene on any primetime TV show. The problem is, you're seeing "Will and Grace," but you're perceiving it as "Queer As Folk."

Of course, I'm stumbling around in the dark here, with no help from you; you have not yet defined what is "overtly sexual" in your eyes. "Overtly sexual" to me would be the examples I just gave above. To you, the sight of two women engaged in an open-mouth kiss might be too much to handle.

In any case, your question is not "purely political." It is purely judgmental, frought with preconceived notions about what is and what is not "appropriate."

And don't bother to quote a question to you if you're not going to answer it:

"Why does this issue interest you so much? Are you worried about LGBTs dragging the Dem party down before the next election or something?"

Hardly. It feels like you're being overly hostile towards me, and I see no reason for it.
Do you feel that I should not ask a question about the gay pride parade or express an opinion about it?

Don't turn it back on me. I'll extend the courtesy you didn't extend me, and answer your question: Yes, you have the right to ask any question you want, and express any opinion you want. But it's disingenuous to pretend that your questions are free of prejudice and judgment -- and then make me out as the big, bad bully who's being "hostile" for no reason. Dancing around direct questions and crying "victim" doesn't foster the sort of open dialogue I thought you were asking for.

So, again, why does this issue interest you so much? Are you afraid we're going to do it in the streets and scare the horses? Are you afraid that we'll scar your kid for life?

Fine, you have every right to worry about what your five-year-old sees. What you don't have the right to do is expect other people to conform to your notions of proper conduct in order to "protect" your child. If you don't like what your kid is seeing on TV, turn off the TV. If you don't like what your kid is seeing on the Internet, turn off the computer. Protecting your child from perceived bogeymen is your job; you're the dad, you make the rules for your child.

But you don't make them for us.

If it's not paternal instinct driving your questions, then what is it? I could see you caring if you were gay, and trying to hash out the issue inside yourself, but you say you're straight -- so why do you care?

You say you are "interested in oppression." In what way? If you want to fight oppression, then terrific -- keep talking. But in your own way, whether you see it or not (and I think by now you do), you are contributing to oppression, by walking in here with preconceived ideas about gay people, and expecting us not to recognize bias when we see it.

Fella, we're experts on bias and oppression.

After realizing you're Canadian, it dawned on me that you can't be that concerned about any effect gay people have on the Democratic party itself. We may be the "sleeping giant" at your doorstep, but nothing that happens in the U.S. has so great an impact on Canadian politics that what goes on during Pride in San Francisco, or Chicago, or Sioux City, Iowa, will have any effect on whether your prime minister is Harper, Martin, or a box of rocks. If you're so concerned about oppression, I would think you would take a much greater interest in your own Native American tribes (for just one example), as LGBT Canadians are (for the moment) light-years ahead of U.S. LGBTs in terms of rights. When it comes to social issues, Canada doesn't give a damn what the U.S. does. (And thank goodness for that!)

And if you still think I'm being hostile, re-read Harvey Korman's comments in post #57. Yes, the reaction is "hair-trigger" -- and Harvey explains exactly why.

[skipos]

18. The difference is heterosexuality is 100%

accepted in the U.S. and homosexuality isn't (yet). Personally, I'd like to see that change. If the people who participate in pride marches are participating because they hope it will bring acceptance, then they should behave in whatever way they think facilitates that. If they are doing it just to have fun and enjoy themselves, then they should behave in whatever way they think facilitates that.

[RedXIII]

34. yeah i would like to ...

see it change to because recently last valentines day a vietnamese restaurant had a sign announcing a contest for couples but only thing is it had to be opposite gender,now that's discrimination.




BTW what does it mean "bandwidth exceeded" when it appears where the picture supposed to be?

[MountainLaurel]

39. Amen, Sapph

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[BR_Parkway]

61. Couldn't agree more Saph and wonder how many parades Harper has

actually been to and been personally offended by?

Harper, lumping all of anyone into one 'group' is offensive. To put it in terms you might understand:

Imagine if I went into the African American room and asked if 'those people' thought that it helped them policially for all those single moms to go on shows like Springer trying to find out who their babies's daddy's were. Or the Middle Eastern/Muslim room and asked if 'those people' thought it helped their cause politically for jihadist to be running around blowing shit up.

The simple fact is that the sensational gets the attention. But they are the minority - and as long as they aren't hurting other people, I will fully support them being who they want to be - to do any less on my part is to cripple my entire political belief in freedom.

My partner and I marching in a pride parade wouldn't even get noticed. But the sensational isn't representative of any community as a whole.

[IntravenousDemilo]

65. Which brings me to female toplessness...

Many years ago here in Canada, it was ruled unconstitutional to prohibit women from being topless anywhere men were allowed to, whether it be at a beach, or even walking down the street. I haven't noticed many women taking undue advantage of their new freedom. We don't have hordes of half-naked ladies milling about in public -- not that we have hordes of half-naked men or anything, especially during the winter. The sky didn't fall. In fact, for reasons of modesty and because like it or not, breasts are a sexually charged part of the body for most men, most women wouldn't dream of walking around topless, but it's good that they have the right not to be arrested if they decide to do so. There's a certain amount of self-regulation involved in any person's life. Just because it's legal to drink alcohol, that doesn't mean I'm going to polish off a bottle of scotch if I don't like it -- which I don't. But I should be able to drink it if I want to.

Come visit us. We'd love to have you. You'll have lots of fun!

[foreigncorrespondent]

21. I cannot believe you have brought...

...this CRAP right into our own laps. Do you like starting flame wars?

This kind of crap has been brought up many times on DU, right in GD and the lounge.

Seems there are quite a few heterosexuals who say they understand the meaning of what pride is all about, all the while questioning the ethics of a few (and it is a few) who truly like to party.

Americans truly are wrapped up in the dirty side of everything. Here in Australia we have MidSumma festival (gay Melbourne festival) and Mardi Gras (Gay Pride in Sydney) which get a lot more raunchy than anything you could ever imagine. Yet we do not face this kind of questioning from the heterosexuals here. And to me that says a lot.

You are focusing on one part of pride and forgetting the rest. You also forget that the people on the floats are only representing a small part of the much larger LGBTIQQ community.

You say you understand what pride is all about? I don't believe you. If you did you would realize it is a release for us. And we all release in different ways.

[Sapphocrat]

24. Ya know, if I'd had any sense...

...I wouldn't have even bothered with this all over again. I should have just cited half a dozen old threads where this has been hashed out, ad nauseam.

If it goes on much longer, perhaps I'll do that, and save my energy for more pressing matters.

[foreigncorrespondent]

25. LOL!

Yeah! I guess lumbering every single person in a community into one group is a favorite pass time for some. :shrug:

I will go through my old bookmarks and see if I have any of those old threads tucked away that I can post links too as well.

[kweerwolf]

27. LOL ... Maybe we need a "pink primer"

That way we could post it here for the straight folks to read so we don't have to go through the same old issues again and again.

I really think there are a few straight folks around here that are trying to understand ... but we see so many of the same questions come up over and over.

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. kweerwolf!!!

I just love you, dude!!! :)

I think the pink primer would work very well. LOL

[kweerwolf]

29. Awwww, you're gonna make me blush!

:loveya: right back at ya, foreigncorrespondent!

Who knows ... maybe in my spare time this week I'll start a list of "How to talk to an LGBT person - without coming across like a raging homophobe" and post it for input.

Heck, we might even get something worth publishing and I'll be glad to split the profits with you! :D

[foreigncorrespondent]

32. That's a great idea!!!!

We gotta do something. It seems every year we gotta go through the same set of questions at least once, usually a little more often though.

[Ian David]

37. Why do you hate freedom? n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

41. No I don't like starting flame wars...

I'm being polite and respectful and can only hope others are the same to me.

I did not claim to know what pride is "all about". I expressed some understanding of it in my topic post I believe, and you can certainly correct me if I was wrong on that point.

I am not judging or "questioning ethics". If it came accross that way, I apologize.

If you re-read my topic post I was pretty clearly making a point that I believe sexual displays in the pride parade hurt the political cause for gays.
You can disagree or agree, but please don't assume I'm denegrating homosexuals or calling those behaving in a sexual way on floats unethical, because that's not the case.

[foreigncorrespondent]

45. Uh-huh!

If this is what you call being respectful towards a group of people, I would love to see what you think is disrespectful!

Your own words:

Why do some gays get up on floats and behave in ways that are overtly sexual?

It's my humble opinion that the sexual parade stuff is harmful to the political cause.

Stop raining on a parade because a few have fun in a way you don't agree with.

It doesn't matter if a parade is political or not. The point is, if you are going to tune into just those few instead of looking at the bigger picture, then you aren't as gay friendly as you try to make yourself out to be.

[Harper_is_Bush]

46. Well then you tell me what the reality is, please...

Are some gays NOT standing up on floats and behaving in ways that are "overtly sexual"?

And if that's the case, then can it not be fairly be described as
"sexual parade stuff"?

How is my perception of reality and a legitimate opinion about that being disrespectful?????

My purpose in this topic was not to look at the "bigger picture". I purposely was focussing on this one aspect of the parade, and asking some specific questions thereof.

I don't feel like I'm being disrespectful or hostile, yet I'm getting both directed at me.

[Harper_is_Bush]

47. post in wrong spot...

[kweerwolf]

49. I'm not so sure you're getting hostility ...

... but you are arousing a good deal of suspicion.

We do, on occasion, get straight folks who come in here to stir things up. Sometimes they are just bored and coming in here to "make fun of the queers." Other times they have an agenda to get LGBT folks to say something that can be trotted out to other less progressive sites so they can say, "Look! Even the fags hate pride parades (or drag queens ... or guys in leather ... or (fill in your pet peeve).

You do seem to be terribly interested in the "overtly sexual" and the "sexual parade stuff."

It makes me wonder just how many go-go boys in g-strings shaking their money makers or how many topless 'dykes on bikes' it takes to make a parade "overtly sexual"? Do you have a specific number in mind? Does a float featuring three scantilly clad go-go boys, a couple of guys in buttless leather chaps and three or four topless lesbians kissing make the entire parade "overtly sexual"? Should there be a quota on what percentages of guys can wear revealing "pussy pants" ro how many lesbians can kiss each other per hour?

Granted, I live in the rather conservative Midwest, but in every pride parade I've ever seen (and I'd estimate I've seen close to 30) the participants who you might call "overtly sexual" are a very slim minority. Heck, even the '93 March on Washington with its 1 million or so participants had a very tiny minority who were "overtly sexual" unless you count marchers holding hands or kissing in front of the anti-gay protesters for shock value.

You are focusing on a tiny fraction of people and it seems more like you have got your information on pride parades from the propaganda put out by the right wing that only shows the most outrageous examples. And by coming back again and again to focus on that tiny fraction, it does raise suspicions of what your intentions are in returning to the same subject time and again.

[foreigncorrespondent]

50. Oh please!!!

Yes there are SOME people doing raunchy things on floats and in the audience at pride parades. But that action does not mean the entire queer community is BAD. Nor does it mean that the parade can be termed a sexual parade.

When you begin looking at the bigger picture I will get off your back. You haven't been looking at the bigger picture. You were and continue to remain focused on one part of pride parade.

I'm sorry, mate but you are being disrespectful, and the sooner you realize that the better off we all might be.

[mitchtv]

51. you know , I know you are not trying to offend

Then you can ask me if I give a rat's ass what a bunch of breeders think of me or my community- It is a party, and sure there are good-lookers half dressed. So what? they will give us nothing anyway so , enjoy yourself. This kind for reminds me of the so called moderates who say "such and such makes Dems look bad".
"To thine own self be true"

[kweerwolf]

26. For what it's worth, here's my take ...

Most of straight society (and I do mean most, since even here on DU there is subtle and not-so-subtle homophobia) sees us as outcasts. As outcasts, that gives us the freedom to do whatever we want to do, thereby thumbing our noses at the breeders in the process.

If you ask ever person at a Pride parade why they are acting and/or dressing provocatively, you'll get as many different answers as there are people. Some do it to shock. Some do it to celebrate. Some do it to get noticed. Some do it just because when you're 22 and have a bubble butt and six-pack abs, it's fun to show them off.

Frankly, I don't think it matters how we act or dress because even if we showed up dressed in suits and marching in unison someone would say, "Look at that faggot with the slightly askew tie!" and somehow connect that with what evil abominations we are.

The LGBT community is extremely diverse. We run the gamut from straight-laced Log Cabin Republicans to apolitical twinkies, from butch Dykes on Bikes to drag queens, from muscular gym bunnies to flabby "bears." The thing I like about the LGBT community is that our diversity is right out there in front for everyone to see.

The straight community is just as diverse, too, but you don't see them going out of their way to celebrate divorced moms with two kids, dads who got remarried to young trophy wives during a midlife crisis, couples who are involved in swingers clubs, or anything else that deviates from the standard cookie-cutter "man, wife, 2.3 kids, and an SUV in front of a house with a white picket fence" model.

Sure there are elements of the LGBT community that can make me cringe with their antics (probably in the same way that Britny Spears' 52-hour Vegas wedding made all those folks raving about "the sanctity of marriage" cringe). But I accept them and don't get all worked up about "the political message" they are sending out.

If someone already doesn't like gays, lesbians, bisexuals or the transgendered, the simple message that we exist is going to piss them off. If someone's on the fence, then he or she can pose a question just like the original poster. They may not like the answer (or may fail to "get it") but let's hope they learn something in the process.

[Harper_is_Bush]

42. Thankyou!

That's an excellent answer.

Your "take" is worth something, fer sure.

[kansasblue]

31. Harper_is_Bush, this is an argument even with in the gay...

community. Not everyone likes to see guys in leather jocks walking down the street, or even naked.

Check with the proponents for there reasons for supporting it. Include me as one that feels it's inappropriate to parade down a public street that way.

[Harper_is_Bush]

43. Thanks.

It certainly appears like it's a contentious issue which has been knocked about before.

I've touched a nerve unintentionally.

[Meldread]

33. I'm going to assume you are ignorant.

I haven't had the chance to read any of the other posts in this thread, but I am just going to go off the basis that you are an ignorant person. It is okay to be ignorant, so I am going to shed some light on what you are seeing so that you might understand.

When you see a gay pride parade it isn't your typical parade. In fact the parade is a very small part of the actual event. It is more similar to Mardi Gras but with more purpose. It is a day of celebrating sexuality - our sexuality. It does have a political undertone, yes, but it is not about being political - a pride parade should not be confused with a pride march.

What you are seeing in a pride parade is a celebration of all the aspects of queer culture (which is much broader than simple gay culture - queer is an inclusive term to encompass many sexual and gender minorities) and a celebration of its diversity. There may be some elements of a pride march within the pride parade but it is not the same, as it is a celebration - and I stress that it is a celebration.

However, yes to an outsider a pride march and a pride parade is easily confused. Especially as pride marches are also held around the same time in certain cities in which gays are less accepted. Still, they are two very different events and yes pride parades evolved from pride marches, hence the political undertones.

Is a pride parade representative of the majority of LGBT people at large? Well, almost any LGBT person can find a representative in the parade - and I would argue that many other groups would as well. However, it is not a representation of our daily lives - we do not dress up like that every single day and head out to work. This should be obvious enough to most straight folks who use common sense, but more often than not they take the celebration as negative.

It is very much like Mardi Gras, it is the only time of year for many in the queer community that we can feel as if we aren't in the minority. That we can get together in large groups and just have a good time. Thus, it upsets us when straight folks take such celebrations out of context trying to paint it as if it is how we act on a daily basis. It is a party, a celebration, a time of self-expression in a culture which seeks to oppress us and a culture in which we find ourselves greatly marginalized.

It is a time for celebrating queer culture, queer remembrance and queer identity. Many straight people also participate in the celebration as everyone is welcome too. You must understand that we spend 364 days of the year oppressed under heterosexual tyranny and we get a single day of the year to just 'go wild' and throw everything to the wind.

I am sure it is very difficult to understand as a heterosexual person. You cannot spend five minutes without looking at something which flaunts your sexual identity. I open almost any newspaper across America and I find straight couples making wedding announcements, and yet I find my own people excluded from that - not just from legal marriage but from social recognition.

I turn on the television and even if I watch a program on a channel... say... Animal Planet or hell even the Cartoon Network, I am certain to find commercials which advertise and pander to heterosexual people. It isn't always overtly sexual, no. It is often subtle, a small hug, the holding of hands, a smile between two lovers - all things that many people in the LGBT community cannot do in public for fear of being if not physically, most certainly emotionally harmed.

You go about your daily life emendated in your heterosexual imagery. You are so wrapped up in your sexuality that you have become immunized to its so flaunting display. You don't even realize it is there anymore. A wedding ring. Mention of being married, children, husband, wife... all of that we are not allowed to have. All of that point you out as being heterosexual, all of it points to the fact that you are straight and that we are not like you. That we are the "others", not included in your words, your television shows, your lives, your newspapers, your advertisements, or your world.

...and it is your world for 364 days a year. It is our world for a single day. Think about it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. Well put

your description reminded me of how I teach children about the concept of culture, that it is so embedded in our lives we don't even notice it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

44. Do you agree or disagree with my opinion...

that the overt over-the-top sexuality of the parade hurts the political efferts of homosexuals?

BTW, you can get married where I live. And be parents to children.

"You must understand that we spend 364 days of the year oppressed under heterosexual tyranny and we get a single day of the year to just 'go wild' and throw everything to the wind."

Perhaps some of that going "wild" contributes to the continued tyranny. That is my point. You can agree or disagree, but don't pretend I'm the enemy.

[Meldread]

55. I disagree.

I don't see why anyone should be ashamed. Why is sexuality something to be ashamed of or to be hidden? Are you saying that, because the queer community is not fully accepted by heterosexual society that we should conform to what makes heterosexuals comfortable? By that logic most gay people would have to stop having sex.

Are you saying we should live our lives as if we are constantly running a campaign for President, never to take a single hour out of a single day to enjoy the short lives that we have? (Lives, made even shorter by the stress of heterosexual oppression and the constant threat of physical violence, even murder?)

[xchrom]

35. so what? we should dress in our sunday best and choir robes?

we're{and always have been} damned if we do and damned if we don't in the straight world.

but really -- what do you think a gay pride parade should be about if not the very thing that makes you straight people behave so irrationally about us?

you don't persecute us because we have fabulous fashion sense -- you persecute us because women dance provocatively with women, men kiss men, etc.

so if we don't show you that what you fear is beautiful, sexy, joyous, wonderful -- then there it stays in the dark still retaining the false appearance that there is something wrong.

gay pride parades galvanizes, energizes, electrifies, unites a community that all too often has had to hide away to keep you all from killing us.

so we stopped -- and we've started to show the thing that makes you nuts -- and you know what? -- we're still making head way in the civil rights arena -- think that might be because we show ourselves so provocatively to the world? -- i do.

[Ian David]

36. Have you seen the crazy straight people at Carnival and Mardi Gras?

Why is it that college girls are constantly "going wild" and showing us their boobs?

And then there's The St. Patrick's Day Parade, where people get so drunk they're actually willing to drink green beer.

Gays have Gay Pride.

Mardi Gras is a White Christian invention that involves getting drunk and showing your boobies in exchange for beeds.

Many countries-- Brazil, Trinidad, etc. have Carnival (the Brazilians make all those other festivities look like a funeral by comparison.)

Every group has their own valve to let off steam.

And the "Family Values" and "Culture of Life" crowd has torture and genocide.

Personally, I'll take showering in a g-string on a parade float over this:

[Harper_is_Bush]

48. I want to apologize ...

... for offending anyone with my questions and opinions in this topic.

It's caused some emotional responses that I didn't anticipate and I don't wish to be the reason that people become upset over things that are so deeply felt.

Signing off in here....regards.

[foreigncorrespondent]

52. Well that apology didn't last did it?

I refuse to respond to the PM you sent me in PM's. I do not consider what I have to say to be a private issue, and as such will be replying to your PM here. The PM I received after you had "apologized" for offending the people ion this thread you have offended. Doesn't that stand for me as well? After all I am and continue to be offended by your words.

Your PM:

Very unfair
From: Harper_is_Bush
Date: Dec-06-05 01:38 PM
In no way did I call the gay community "bad" or term the parade a sexual parade. I referenced the sexual portion of the parade.

Assuch, I do not see how I've been disrespectful. Sorry mate.

Please do not misrepresent me, thankyou.

I never said you did call us bad. I did, but I was also making a point when saying it. I much prefer to just say bad rather than the term you have coined "overtly sexual." So please do not accuse me of doing things I'm not.

Quoting your own words back you seem as how you seem to think you didn't call pride parade a sexual parade:

And if that's the case, can it not be fairly be described as "sexual parade stuff"

Now I suggest you go back over this entire thread, reread every single word written by those of us offended by your OP and continued onslaught of our community. And do not stop reading until you bloody well understand them. Maybe then you will learn exactly how you are being disrespectful!

[Harper_is_Bush]

53. It's unfortunate

That you don't respect what I say privately as private.

I am forced to respond in public, in this topic.

You said:
"Yes there are SOME people doing raunchy things on floats and in the audience at pride parades. But that action does not mean the entire queer community is BAD."

This implies that I have called the queer community bad. Thus my clarification for you in private regarding that.

You said:
"Nor does it mean that the parade can be termed a sexual parade. "

I did not use the term "sexual parade" unto itself, implying that the parade was sexual in it's entirety.
I used the term "sexual parade stuff" referring specifically to the actions of a few on some floats. The word "sexual" is descriptive of the word "stuff", not "parade".

I will assume this selective quoting resulting in a false meaning was a mistake on your part.

regards.

[foreigncorrespondent]

54. Sorry, dude!

You don't get a pass!

If you meant "sexual stuff" then that is what you should have said. But you decided to add parade in with that. Guess what? That gives it an entirely different meaning.

So no selective quoting on my part. Just disrespect on your part.

Have a good day!

[Harper_is_Bush]

59. No, it does not.

It appears you're being purposely dishonest here in order to bait me into defending myself after I've said I was exiting this thread.

"sexual parade" and "sexual parade stuff" have two entirely different meanings.

Just like "stinky hockey equipment" and "stinky hockey" does as well.

If I didn't place the word "parade" into the phrase, then I'm not identifying what form of "stuff" I"m calling "sexual".

For gawdsake, grow up.

NOW I'm done.

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. I am not baiting you into anything.

And don't tell me to grow up. How bloody rude and arrogant of you.

You are the one who has come down here to the LGBT forums for God only knows what. I am a lesbian. I like many others in this thread have told you we have found your words to be offensive. In stead of trying to defend something that you cannot defend (it is all out for everyone to see) why don't you realize that us being queer see a problem with what you have said? You are gripping at straws.

By saying you want to identify what is sexual then why say parade? (That implies you are saying the parade itself is overtly sexual.) Why not say WITH IN the parade? You see? You see how come we find your words offensive?

How about you grow up, mate, and take some damn responsibility for the hurt you have caused!

And please stop bloody well focusing on one thing which happens in a pride parade. There happens to be a lot more positives about pride than the one negative you are constantly harping on about.

On edit: You want something totally disgusting? I found it in rather poor taste that a rather famous POLITICAL couple decided to have a snogging session during the funeral of the pope. Dang a HETEROSEXUAL couple at that!

[Maat]

56. O.K. ... hold on.

Correct me if I am wrong, PFLAGers and GLBT friends, but this is my experience.

I recently took my kid to the Gay Pride Parade in Palm Springs, Ca. In fact, we both were in it as PFLAGers. My friend, President (I'm Vice President) of the local PFLAG in Temecula Valley, took her twin seven-year-old sons.

I never saw anything inappropriate. My nine-year-old loved the beads given too her; everyone there was SO kind and welcoming to us. I asked one young gentleman, after the parade, how to get somewhere. He was very polite, insisting on walking me in the right direction.

My kid thought the costumes were great! She was born on Halloween, and she loves good costumes.

Everyone's private parts were covered ... which is MORE than I can say for the San Diego Charger game on Halloween Weekend.

THERE, at the 'Q,' the cheerleaders were dressed in costumes that would make a sex worker on "E" Street in San Bernardino blush. Picture me trying to explain to Beloved Daughter why the cheerleader/nurse had her breasts hanging out of her white bikini-top - Beloved Daughter knew that nurses typically didn't dress like that. Then there was the "Laura the Tomb-Raider" cheerleader. All this at a supposedly FAMILY event. Ticked this feminist off!

I had the best experience ever at the PS Gay Pride Parade! We decided the Festival was for adults, however, due to some friendly advice.

And many of the parade viewers were couples with children. It was a wonderful family event.

Thoughts?

[Maven]

57. Everyone please stop pouncing on Harper.

I think his question was misguided, but I don't think he was trying to offend.

And Harper, you have to understand this is a very tough time for the American GLBT community right now. 90% of the headlines we read are bad news. For you, they're just headlines. For us, they have real consequences. Members of the general public, mostly ignorant about GLBT people, have grown so callous and arrogant that they think they should be able to vote on the "acceptability" of other people's personal lives. The leaders who are supposed to be on our side are wishy-washy at BEST. So our visibility is essential to withstand this assault. We are up against people who not only want to deny us human rights--they want us to literally disappear. We can't afford to simply "blend in" right now.

This may help to explain the hair-trigger reaction to your question. You say, "why do some gays get up on floats and behave in ways that are overtly sexual?" To us, it sounds like more of the same: "Why don't all you fags and dykes just dress like you're supposed to, and while you're at it, there's a nice warm place in the closet waiting for you."

The parade is mostly about fun. But it's also an affirmation of our community's strength and diversity. By the way, if you ever actually go to one of the parades in person--something tells me you haven't--you'll notice there are a lot of participants who aren't in thongs. They're pushing strollers, or representing churches, or community centers, or SAGE, or any number of non-overtly-sexual organizations. The only problem is, those people don't make it into the newspapers or the 10-second TV clips. The people in outrageous costumes (or very little clothing at all) do.

I wonder why?

[bigscott]

58. this is really much ado about nothing

When I went to my first Pride parade I thought the bumping and grinding on the floats was "hot". Now, many years later, I think it is there for the "younger" GLBT in the crowd. I would love to see a group of GLBT doctors or lawyers in a parade (and there are these groups) get themselves on TV or in the papers but that is NOT what sells. Unfortunately the "sexual aspect" IS what sells and IS what some "non-GLBT familiar" people associate with homosexuality. Oh Well screw 'em. These are tough times in the GLBT community - and EVERY step forward we have made has been a struggle - but NONE of us will stop pushing our way to the front of the bus!!

[Smarmie Doofus]

73. I give up. Why? n/t

[Maven]

74. Since I assume you're being facetious, i.e., rude

I won't bother to state the obvious.

P.S. Yay, hedonism! :D

[Smarmie Doofus]

75. Didn't mean to sound rude or facetious. Meant to draw ...

you out on your closing point; which seemed to be: the 10 second media clips of gay pride parades feature the unclothed and outrageous 'cause the media ( by it's very nature) deals with the superficial and the sensational ( aka the exceptional) at the expense of the mundane.

If so, I think you're correct but... seems to me that in making this point... you're detracting from the pro-hedonism argument and adding support to the contention of the OP. Which in a general sense I agree with.

Re. "Yay hedonism." That's fine. It just doesn't have anything to do with working for rights for sexual minorities. Except if you count "hedonists" as a sexual minority. In which case, why not let straight people fight that fight? Why append it to the already much maligned, and *poorly understood* "gay agenda"? Further confusion is not what this issue needs, seems to me.

Anyway, this thread is already two weeks old. Time to put it to sleep.

[IntravenousDemilo]

62. You know, it's also for the ladies.

There are a lot of women who attend the Pride parade here in Toronto, and I always hear them ooohhing and aaahhing over the buff bodies and big baskets.

Basically it's done for the same reason there are bright colours and outrageously flashy costumes -- it's visually stimulating, much more than the Shriners driving those funny little cars in St Patrick's day parades.

But it's also cultural.

[freepotter]

69. No harm, no foul, no help...

Harper,

As far as public displays of anything, people who observe them are either going to have their prejudices reinforced, or aren't going to be affected by what they see if they are accepting of others.

In Oklahoma City last year our parade organizers decided to have a "family values" oriented parade. Well, lots of gay families showed up: partners and singles with children, grandparents with grandchildren, partners with pets, aunts and uncles with nieces and nephews, politicians in suits, etc. All very conservative, really. The only scantily clothed people were the teenagers from the GSA clubs, but then, you know teenagers! They're the same from all orientations.

To make a short story even shorter, the news coverage of the event was practically nonexistent; the same as the previous years. Not a single story was told along the lines of "see, they're really a lot like the rest of society." There was not one word of support from the "straight" news community. Not that Oklahoma City parades were ever really raunchy but, the conservative one this past year went unnoticed by the community-at-large. There has been no indication of any lessening of bigotry in Oklahoma since our Pride Parade, and we also got a brand new law signed by our Dem. governor that forbids same-sex marriages, and any arrangement/contract that could be construed to give any benefit of marriage. To answer your question, bigots are bigoted no matter how the object of their hatred behaves, as bigotry by definition is irrational.

[foreigncorrespondent]

70. Exactly!

When we do things they want us to do they don't see or appreciate it anyway!

[election_2004]

71. My perspective, as a gay boy.....

I'm 23/m, gay....

I've never participated in a pride parade, mainly because I believe there are more productive ways to work toward obtaining legal equality.

Now I like male flesh just as much as the next boi...but some of the "gay fetishes" when it comes to dress (leather, thongs, cock rings, etc.) are a little bit "out there," as far as my personal taste goes. But if the people who like those things enjoy having fun in that way, it doesn't bother me one bit.

Personally, I'm rather low-key in most public settings (meaning that my clothing and accessories do not indicate my sexual orientation...for example, I don't wear rainbow jewelry) - - this isn't because I'm ashamed to be queer, but simply because I'm comfortable with my own sense of style.

So yeah, I'm totally down with grinding suggestively with my gay male bros (or even with straight guys) at a party around mainly people my own age, but I prefer not to do it in public. Or if I strip down at a party, it's going to be with other people (both gay and straight) from my age group who like to get drunk and naked.

But I wouldn't put on that kind of show on the public streets during a parade for older generations to witness. Maybe I'm just more modest than many other queer boyz, when it comes to that?

[Smarmie Doofus]

72. What a great question. Somewhere along the line...

very early on , in fact,( probably in the late 70's) the Gay Pride parades stopped being about politics and gay rights and started to be about hedonism vs. puritanism.

Thus the basic issue has been forever confused. I'm primarily interested in political rights, so I generally don't go to gay pride any more since the central message is "hedonism is good; puritanism is bad". This proposition may or may not be true but it is a separate and distinct issue from whether gay people should have rights equivalent to non-gays... which is absolutely true.

Additionally, the conjoining of the two issues has the added deleterious effect of losing support for equal rights of people who might not agree that , for example, "hedonism is better than puritanism", but might agree that sexual minorities should be treated fairly.

Possible solution: hedonists ( of all sexual varieties) march on Fat Tuesday; supporters of equal rights for sexual minorities march on the last weekend in June.

IMHO, your humble opinion is on the money.

[Harper_is_Bush]

81. Very interesting. Thanks. n/t

[Uncle Zoloft]

76. My reply as a gay man

Rio. Carnival. Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

[Tab]

77. I know the bulk of this topic was about 10 days ago

so I'm leaving the thread as is, but since it seems to be resurrecting itself, I would ask that personal attacks and casting aspersions be avoided.

I think the original question was a valid question, and the original answers were valid answers, but it seems to have deteriorated from there.

People in a parade are not necessarily representative of a population as a whole, particularly when it's "risky" (politically or personally) to participate. Whether gay pride, or anti-war demonstrations, every participant has their own reason for being there. Some are particularly overt in their beliefs.

Is it valid to ask if it hurts politically, particularly if looking for acceptance from the "mainstream"? Sure, it's valid to ask. But who's to say the "mainstream"s way is the only way?

At the same time, I concede that if the event is the primary public display for the cause, then the image given is the image delivered, but it's only the image of the participants and not the population as a whole.

So, please discuss, but hold off on casting aspersions as to intent. If you don't like a post, please alert on it.

GLBT runs the whole cross-section of society. The people on the floats are no more representative of the population as a whole than some men represent all males. They're just the most visible, that's all.

[xchrom]

82. tab? -- what's ''mainstream''?

that's the problem -- one person's poison is another's antidote.

the very original post is homophobic in it's outlay.

[jonolover]

78. You're completely missing the point, Harper

The parade doesn't and shouldn't have to do anything with the political cause. Just because we dance on floats wearing tight shorts has nothing to with equal rights. I could be a go-go boy as well as be married to a man - there is no connection.

[Brian_Expat]

79. Because "we" can.

And because the idea that heterosexual sex isn't on every streetcorner parading down the boulevards every day is hysterically funny. :)

Well, ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer! ;)

[Misunderestimator]

80. Wow... I just now saw this thread... Just gotta love these,

"Why do some gays get up on floats and behave in ways that are overtly sexual?"

:rofl:

gays, gays, gays... the gays are coming! Run for your lives!! :rofl: