Need to gain some understanding.

[bobburgster]

Can someone please explain to me why "The List" is seen as insulting to GLBT? I'm serious, I am not trying to start a ruckus, just gain understanding.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. It's not the list itself, it is how it is used.

[WillParkinson]

2. Agreed...

Basically we're being told that we should be grateful and stop complaining about things because look at all the things on the list!

[Tx4obama]

13. That is not true.

What is true is that for some reason people are being attacked every time they try to highlight what the democrats and President Obama has done in the past 2 1/2 years.

[WillParkinson]

25. See Reply #4 by Prism

Who sums it up much better than I can.

[MNBrewer]

27. Here is one answer to your question as to why it's insulting.

the post to which I just replied.

[QC]

10. And who uses the list.

People who spend years antagonizing us at every turn and then claim, implausibly, to care about us.

[Tx4obama]

15. Sounds like you're lumping all folks into one group and therefore your statement is false. n/t

[QC]

20. If David Duke suddenly claimed one day to believe in equal rights for all races,

would you believe him, or would you view his announcement with suspicion?

[Tx4obama]

12. It was used most recently in GDP to 'answer' someone's question

and the person that posted it was still attacked.

The recent OP in GDP had nothing to do with calling anyone out nor was its purpose to be antagonizing - it's purpose was to inform someone that had no idea of Obama's record.

If someone were to ask "What has Obama done for women?", the logical thing would be to post a list.
And I betcha there wouldn't be the same outrage.

As democrats we can not and should not let folks get away with saying that our democratic president has done "NOTHING".

Please explain how to respond to someone that says "Obama has done NOTHING, what has he done?" without being attacked other than to post a list of what Obama has done?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

19. Thank you

I was long past sick of it myself. I should have spoken up a long time ago.

[dsc]

16. that is just plain false

First, had it been for the purpose you stated it would have been in thread where the question was, not its own thread.

Second, that particular poster has a well known history of that kind of behavior.

[Tx4obama]

18. It is not false. Here's the proof

Question was asked here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=688901&mesg_id=688922

and the Answer was posted in the other OP. The other OP also states that it was a response to the question.

[dsc]

21. that OP has a history of both participating in that behavior

and then denying having done so, so I don't take their words at face value. Again, that could have easily been posted in the thread where the question came up, incidently continuing a discussion from thread to thread is against the rules and I alerted based on the posts saying it was just that, and the mods didn't buy it either since the thread is still there. The fact is that poster did what that poster has done before, rubbed our noses in it.

[Tx4obama]

23. Thank you for your civil discussion on the matter.

I don't keep up with the history of folks, so I didn't know there was a previous behavior.

[QC]

22. Go away. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

28. The person who posted it did not merely post it. As you know.

That poster, as I said in that thread and no one had the stones to address, that poster claimed that until Obama, there had been zero progress on any gay rights issues, in fact the phrase was: "NOTHING but more restrictions, for decades." That statement is equally false as the statement "Obama has done nothing'. Oddly, the CAPS you use were used by the poster you refer to, to add emphasis to the NOTHING but more restrictions. For decades. That is a huge falsehood. Huge, and slanderous, because it denies the brave and enduring work of thousands of Democrats, elected and other wise, who made changes happen, major changes. In my lifetime of a few decades, we have gone from Prison to the Alter. Yet the claim was NOTHING but more restrictions, for decades.
Explain why answering hyperbole with even more hyperbole is a good idea. Also, explain why you frame that poster as having posted 'the list' and nothing else, being 'attacked' for that? The fact is, she editorialized in false, extreme, ALL CAPS style. What she posted was just as false as it is to say Obama has done nothing.
That is what actually happened. She claimed Harvey Milk did nothing, that all of us who faced the AIDS crisis did NOTHING. For decades, just more restrictions. A lie, a slander, a raft of mendacity, tacked on to the end of that list, the list being the mask and the shield for the nasty post script.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. ...and the one I saw has more fluff than a teenager's resume n/t

[Prism]

4. The attitude accompanying it is anachronistic and insulting

The President has some real, concrete accomplishments on LGBT issues. However, the List is chock full of things that aren't particularly accomplishments, nor should they be praised as revolutionary steps forward for the community.

In 2011, the fact a Democratic president appointed an LGBT individual to some random bureaucratic position, or had *gasp* real, live gay people at this or that event just doesn't rank on the "See all he does for you?!" scale. I mean, really, in 2011, we're still considering it a great leap forward for a politician who garnered 70+% of the LGBT vote to merely recognize different orientations as actual human beings?

It's a little insulting that mere recognition of our personhood is considered this massive accomplishment that we ought to recognize lest we be ingrates.

It's as if the attitude in the List thinks it's 1969. As if no politician ever has been so wonderful as to *gasp* be seen with real, live gays in public!

That isn't where America is anymore. A majority of Americans now support gay marriage. It's insulting to us for it to be strongly intimated that we should be on our knees grateful for acts and behaviors that should now be a Democratic politician's default settings. Some things ought to be a given. Treating LGBTers and our families as basic humans should be a given in the Democratic Party - not a clip for the highlight reel.

It fails to recognize the realities existent in the LGBT community and across the country. It fails to understand the hard work we've done to have come so far in so short of time. It denies us the recognition of our accomplishments. The fact that we're considered still bastardized until "officially blessed" by a politician is odious and offensive.

But that's the attitude that often accompanies this silly, stupid List.

And people are totally clueless to it, because they don't listen to LGBTers. They'll point to that list and talk right over us. And if we say word one about it, then we're ungrateful, hostile, combative. Because, you know, no wound is too big that couldn't do with a little salt.

People are ignorant, and where this List goes, that ignorance is almost always sure to follow.

No one likes being patronized, but the LGBT is by our own allies. Repeatedly. And then we're insulted and denigrated when we complain. It's totally unreal.

[WillParkinson]

5. I wish you had posted this earlier, Prism....

SOOOOO much more eloquent than mine. :)

[xchrom]

6. +2

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Very well said indeed.

thanks.

[justiceischeap]

7. I'd also like to say that the only items on the list that really count

are any Federal laws that have been created or changed. Including gay people in your administration really shouldn't be considered an "accomplishment" by any President. It's like a company saying, "Look I hired that black guy" or "My secretary's a woman." Or to flip that around, how would people feel about a company that refused to hire black people, women or jews just because they are black, female and jewish. The majority of the "list" isn't something that are going to help gays in 2012 (if he's not reelected) or 2016 when he's done.

The below are things that will effect the LGBT community when he's out of office:

FEDERAL LEGISLATION SIGNED INTO LAW

*Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability -- the first positive federal LGBT legislation in the nation's history
*Signed repeal of Don't Ask/Don't Tell
*Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act

All the other "accomplishments" would not go forward on a Republican president or administration, especially if any of the one's running now, win (which is a real possibility if Obama doesn't start slamming the Repubs on the economy and jobs--cause that's truly what the nation cares about right now).

[William769]

8. Did I miss something about the list?

[Creideiki]

9. Because ultimately we're falling behind, yet again

And then there's the contradiction--Obama can't get blamed for not advocating and pushing any legislative action because he's not "a king" (despite, apparently, thinking he has a King's Army--read invasion of Libya in violation of the Constitution, War Powers Act notwithstanding), but he gets all credit when the most minor legislative action is taken that he actually deigns to sign? Seriously. We now track hate crimes. Woohoo! How about finding out that there are no more hate crimes? That would be an accomplishment.

All this while GLBT rights are proceeding through the civilized world, until we look more backwater than Paraguay (for example). (Note, not knocking Paraguay--it's just that we've got this Statue in New York that's supposed to mean something. Instead, the plaque should list off the broken promises to all people. We have this wonderful Pledge of Allegiance that should be amended to end, "With liberty and justice for Straight White Folks ONLY!"

The List, instead, is used as a bludgeon to rate people in the Oppression Olympics. "See what He has done for you!" Yeah, not "Look at the moral leadership. Look at the use of the bully pulpit for the advancement of civil rights for all Americans. Instead, hey, he invited this one lesbian couple to the Easter egg roll. Yay, us.

[bobburgster]

11. Thanks all....

for taking the time to explain your thoughts about the list. I would particularly like to thank Prism for your long and detailed thoughts. All of you have given me a better understanding this issue.

One thought I had, after reading some of your responses, was the focal point of anger being aimed at Obama. In some ways, it is very similar to the anger progressive members were focusing on him for not doing enough. As I've stated to them, I believe it is okay to want/demand more, but it is important to acknowledge the good that is accomplished.

I certainly understand your strong emotions, and frustrations, over the snails pace to gain equality.

Thanks again, for your input. It helps me better understand.

[justiceischeap]

24. Not many of us, I would say most, don't deny that good has been accomplished

but it's the repeated posting of that damn list that gets tiring. Somehow it's become the rolled up newspaper that the DU LGBT community gets smacked with if we question Obama on LGBT issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Wow. Ok. I keep posting to the angry straights, again and again

that Obama has done things, and they respond with 'you hate him, and there was NOTHING but more restrictions for gays for DECADES before him'. That, as I keep saying, is false, a lie, no more true than it is to say Obama has done nothing. But they say it, they shout it and they refuse to retract it when the facts are pointed out to them.
So this pretense that 'the good' is not acknowledged is an affectation of disrespect which does nothing so much as point out that Straights do not even read what we type when they come after us. They are not even listening. They are just spewing venom. Forget 'the list' read the crap they add as comments, that is what sets people off. They claim folks are upset about 'the list' or 'an article I posted' but it is always about their objectives and their commentary.
It is intellectually dishonest to pretend to seek information and then refuse to respond to it. Long way to go to say what you came here to say. The good that is accomplished is fucking celebrated by us. The fact that the straights wish to ignore that is their problem, in fact, it is their prejudice.

[bobburgster]

31. I tried following the new posts this morning.....

but some I could not make sense of. Figured it was the early hour.
On rereading this PM, I've come to the conclusion that feelings and animosities from other threads may have seeped into their posts causing my confusion, but hey...at least it wasn't my mind going off kilter.

Bluenorthwest, thanks for your comments. I do understand your frustration with that type of mindset. I have run into it previously, and felt like I was hitting my head against a wall trying to explain myself. I finally decided not to bother replying if the recipient wasn't at least open to listening and being respectful.

[Chemisse]

17. This is really helpful. By the time I see discussions about all these issues,

People are upset at each other, and I often can't get a real sense of what the arguments are based upon.

[yardwork]

26. As a mod, I hope that you notice the disruptor in this thread.

[bobburgster]

32. You can share this graphic.

This, in my opinion, shows the ludicrousness of the gay marriage debate.