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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 09:58 AM
Original message
Bishop John Shelby Spong's recent pronouncement
No more silence. No more waiting.



http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/34674.asp

October 15, 2009

A Manifesto! The Time Has Come!
Bishop John Shelby Spong

I have made a decision. I will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality in the church with anyone. I will no longer engage the biblical ignorance that emanates from so many right-wing Christians about how the Bible condemns homosexuality, as if that point of view still has any credibility. I will no longer discuss with them or listen to them tell me how homosexuality is "an abomination to God," about how homosexuality is a "chosen lifestyle," or about how through prayer and "spiritual counseling" homosexual persons can be "cured." Those arguments are no longer worthy of my time or energy. I will no longer dignify by listening to the thoughts of those who advocate "reparative therapy," as if homosexual persons are somehow broken and need to be repaired. I will no longer talk to those who believe that the unity of the church can or should be achieved by rejecting the presence of, or at least at the expense of, gay and lesbian people. I will no longer
take the time to refute the unlearned and undocumentable claims of certain world religious leaders who call homosexuality "deviant." I will no longer listen to that pious sentimentality that certain Christian leaders continue to employ, which suggests some version of that strange and overtly dishonest phrase that "we love the sinner but hate the sin." That statement is, I have concluded, nothing more than a self-serving lie designed to cover the fact that these people hate homosexual persons and fear homosexuality itself, but somehow know that hatred is incompatible with the Christ they claim to profess, so they adopt this face-saving and absolutely false statement. I will no longer temper my understanding of truth in order to pretend that I have even a tiny smidgen of respect for the appalling negativity that continues to emanate from religious circles where the church has for centuries conveniently perfumed its ongoing prejudices against blacks, Jews,
women and homosexual persons with what it assumes is "high-sounding, pious rhetoric." The day for that mentality has quite simply come to an end for me. I will personally neither tolerate it nor listen to it any longer. The world has moved on, leaving these elements of the Christian Church that cannot adjust to new knowledge or a new consciousness lost in a sea of their own irrelevance. They no longer talk to anyone but themselves. I will no longer seek to slow down the witness to inclusiveness by pretending that there is some middle ground between prejudice and oppression. There isn't. Justice postponed is justice denied. That can be a resting place no longer for anyone. An old civil rights song proclaimed that the only choice awaiting those who cannot adjust to a new understanding was to "Roll on over or we'll roll on over you!" Time waits for no one.

I will particularly ignore those members of my own Episcopal Church who seek to break away from this body to form a "new church," claiming that this new and bigoted instrument alone now represents the Anglican Communion. Such a new ecclesiastical body is designed to allow these pathetic human beings, who are so deeply locked into a world that no longer exists, to form a community in which they can continue to hate gay people, distort gay people with their hopeless rhetoric and to be part of a religious fellowship in which they can continue to feel justified in their homophobic prejudices for the rest of their tortured lives. Church unity can never be a virtue that is preserved by allowing injustice, oppression and psychological tyranny to go unchallenged.

In my personal life, I will no longer listen to televised debates conducted by "fair-minded" channels that seek to give "both sides" of this issue "equal time." I am aware that these stations no longer give equal time to the advocates of treating women as if they are the property of men or to the advocates of reinstating either segregation or slavery, despite the fact that when these evil institutions were coming to an end the Bible was still being quoted frequently on each of these subjects. It is time for the media to announce that there are no longer two sides to the issue of full humanity for gay and lesbian people. There is no way that justice for homosexual people can be compromised any longer.

I will no longer act as if the Papal office is to be respected if the present occupant of that office is either not willing or not able to inform and educate himself on public issues on which he dares to speak with embarrassing ineptitude. I will no longer be respectful of the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who seems to believe that rude behavior, intolerance and even killing prejudice is somehow acceptable, so long as it comes from third-world religious leaders, who more than anything else reveal in themselves the price that colonial oppression has required of the minds and hearts of so many of our world's population. I see no way that ignorance and truth can be placed side by side, nor do I believe that evil is somehow less evil if the Bible is quoted to justify it. I will dismiss as unworthy of any more of my attention the wild, false and uninformed opinions of such would-be religious leaders as Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell,
Jimmy Swaggart, Albert Mohler, and Robert Duncan. My country and my church have both already spent too much time, energy and money trying to accommodate these backward points of view when they are no longer even tolerable.

I make these statements because it is time to move on. The battle is over. The victory has been won. There is no reasonable doubt as to what the final outcome of this struggle will be. Homosexual people will be accepted as equal, full human beings, who have a legitimate claim on every right that both church and society have to offer any of us. Homosexual marriages will become legal, recognized by the state and pronounced holy by the church. "Don't ask, don't tell" will be dismantled as the policy of our armed forces. We will and we must learn that equality of citizenship is not something that should ever be submitted to a referendum. Equality under and before the law is a solemn promise conveyed to all our citizens in the Constitution itself. Can any of us imagine having a public referendum on whether slavery should continue, whether segregation should be dismantled, whether voting privileges should be offered to women? The time has come for politicians
to stop hiding behind unjust laws that they themselves helped to enact, and to abandon that convenient shield of demanding a vote on the rights of full citizenship because they do not understand the difference between a constitutional democracy, which this nation has, and a "mobocracy," which this nation rejected when it adopted its constitution. We do not put the civil rights of a minority to the vote of a plebiscite.

I will also no longer act as if I need a majority vote of some ecclesiastical body in order to bless, ordain, recognize and celebrate the lives and gifts of gay and lesbian people in the life of the church. No one should ever again be forced to submit the privilege of citizenship in this nation or membership in the Christian Church to the will of a majority vote.

The battle in both our culture and our church to rid our souls of this dying prejudice is finished. A new consciousness has arisen. A decision has quite clearly been made. Inequality for gay and lesbian people is no longer a debatable issue in either church or state. Therefore, I will from this moment on refuse to dignify the continued public expression of ignorant prejudice by engaging it. I do not tolerate racism or sexism any longer. From this moment on, I will no longer tolerate our culture's various forms of homophobia. I do not care who it is who articulates these attitudes or who tries to make them sound holy with religious jargon.

I have been part of this debate for years, but things do get settled and this issue is now settled for me. I do not debate any longer with members of the "Flat Earth Society" either. I do not debate with people who think we should treat epilepsy by casting demons out of the epileptic person; I do not waste time engaging those medical opinions that suggest that bleeding the patient might release the infection. I do not converse with people who think that Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans as punishment for the sin of being the birthplace of Ellen DeGeneres or that the terrorists hit the United Sates on 9/11 because we tolerated homosexual people, abortions, feminism or the American Civil Liberties Union. I am tired of being embarrassed by so much of my church's participation in causes that are quite unworthy of the Christ I serve or the God whose mystery and wonder I appreciate more each day. Indeed I feel the Christian Church should not only apologize,
but do public penance for the way we have treated people of color, women, adherents of other religions and those we designated heretics, as well as gay and lesbian people.

Life moves on. As the poet James Russell Lowell once put it more than a century ago: "New occasions teach new duties, Time makes ancient good uncouth." I am ready now to claim the victory. I will from now on assume it and live into it. I am unwilling to argue about it or to discuss it as if there are two equally valid, competing positions any longer. The day for that mentality has simply gone forever.

This is my manifesto and my creed. I proclaim it today. I invite others to join me in this public declaration. I believe that such a public outpouring will help cleanse both the church and this nation of its own distorting past. It will restore integrity and honor to both church and state. It will signal that a new day has dawned and we are ready not just to embrace it, but also to rejoice in it and to celebrate it.

– John Shelby Spong
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. As always, Bishop Spong can be counted on for a thoughtful & thought-provoking statement.
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amb123 Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's time for the GLBT Community to stop singing "We Shall Overcome, Someday."
And start yelling "We Will Overcome Right This Minute!" Because, thanks to Religious Extremists and the politicians who support them, "Someday" has CEASED TO EXIST!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. ...
'I will particularly ignore those members of my own Episcopal Church who seek to break away from this body to form a "new church," claiming that this new and bigoted instrument alone now represents the Anglican Communion. Such a new ecclesiastical body is designed to allow these pathetic human beings, who are so deeply locked into a world that no longer exists, to form a community in which they can continue to hate gay people, distort gay people with their hopeless rhetoric and to be part of a religious fellowship in which they can continue to feel justified in their homophobic prejudices for the rest of their tortured lives. Church unity can never be a virtue that is preserved by allowing injustice, oppression and psychological tyranny to go unchallenged.'



:applause: :loveya: :applause:
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. You mean...
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 10:16 AM by regnaD kciN
I have made a decision. I will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality in the church with anyone.

...you're actually going to shut up for once? Praise the Lord!!! A miracle!!!

(However much +Spong's heart may be in the right place, his countless "manifestos," almost designed to poke a sharp stick in the eye of even those who would normally share his opinions on this particular subject, have served as the greatest recruiting tool for the anti-GLBT movement in the Anglican Communion I could imagine.)

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. If that is true, it says awful things about the Aglican Communion
These are words of genius and of love. Thank God he spoke them so well.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I would prefer Bishop Spong NOT SHUT UP!
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 12:13 PM by Raster
"However much +Spong's heart may be in the right place, his countless "manifestos," almost designed to poke a sharp stick in the eye of even those who would normally share his opinions on this particular subject, have served as the greatest recruiting tool for the anti-GLBT movement in the Anglican Communion I could imagine."

What a diaper load. I'd like to think your heart was in the right place. I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Here's my manifesto: It is NEVER wrong to speak out against hate, against bigotry, against homophobia and against injustice. Never. And to even suggest that speaking out by anyone is wrong is to totally disregard the courage of those that do speak out.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. +1
you're better than I with that benefit of a doubt
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. hear, hear
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Being supportive of LGBT rights has created more bigots?
Okay. :crazy:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Well, it's made them louder.
Oh and it's not bigotry, it's "religious freedom." :sarcasm:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. actually, silence is death. I love him and his books restore my
faith in reason and thoughtful intellectualism.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Since the Point He's Making Is That It's Fucking EVIL to Preach Against Homosexuality...
...I don't know why you'd expect him to temper his manifestos with indulgences to ignorant bigots.

Apparently, you still feel it's necessary for both sides to reach a compromise, and are willing to indulge in a little "blame the victim" for the other side's hatred and bigotry.

It is not Bishop Spong's fault that people are anti-gay. It is the fault of people unwilling to call bigotry what it is, and to make sure that everyone knows that it is unacceptable.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. i love spong
his book on fundamentalism has been passed to many, but i don't think my mom 'got it'. i always knew paul was a dick.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. Brava!!!
:applause: :applause: :applause:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. "about how the Bible condemns homosexuality, as if that point of view still has any credibility"
Um, I've read the Bible and my recollection is that it explicitly condemns male homosexuality at least. If we are to believe the story of Lott, God wiped out a whole city for it. And Paul is pretty clear about it in his letter to the Romans. So I can't see how he can claim that argument has no credibility. Theologically, the RWers are on solid ground. The problem is not that they are reading their myths wrong. The problem is that they are reading them correctly, or rather that they believe what they read. The time has long since past when we should have stopped giving credence to the bronze-age, tribal, war-mongering, misogynistic, genocidal rules of the Bible.

When I was a teenager, my reading of the Bible made me think it was my duty to hate gays, Jews and to regard women as inferior. I never thought so before I read it and I went to a liberal church that never espoused these things from the pulpit. It was the Bible itself that made me feel like I had a duty to be a bigot.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The Bible also condemns usury
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 04:33 PM by theHandpuppet
So why aren't all the by-the-book Christians chaining themselves to the doors of CitiBank and JP Morgan?

(Exodus 22:25-27)
25 " If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
26 "If you ever take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
27 "For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious.

(Leviticus 25:35-37)
35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)

Many more passages from scripture denouncing usury: http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/UsuryScriptureList.html
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. That's true, although I seem to remember that the restriction...
...only applies to fellow Jews. But yeah, when it comes to the liberal parts of the Bible, suddenly the literalists aren't so literal.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. We All Know That Religious Nuts Pick and Choose Which Parts of the Bible to Yell About
Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 01:07 PM by Toasterlad
I think what the Bishop is saying is if you're still going to eat shellfish, you should shut the fuck up about gays.
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
17. AMEN!!
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. This Agnostic Thanks You, Bishop.
Every now and then I get a reminder that not every religious person is a raving, ignorant, fuckwad bigot.
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