For Lesbians and Friends: Butch- the Masculine Woman: Interesting Reading

[bluedawg12]

http://www.lesbian.org/amy/essays/bf-paper2.html
Excerpt from: Lesbian Identity
and the Politcs of Butch-Femme Roles, Part 2

http://www.lesbian.org/amy/essays/bf-paper.html

Lesbian Identity
and the Politics of Butch-Femme Roles
I. LESBIAN IDENTITY/POLITICS
One of the fundamental tenets of postmodern theory is that all identities are socially constructed, and that, throughout history, dominant groups have had the power not only to construct their own identities, which they disguise as "innate" or "natural" rather than created, but also to construct the identities of groups the dominant group has a vested interest in marginalizing. The appeal of postmodern theory lies in its method of "deconstructing" the power relationships inherent in constructions of identity so that it becomes possible to articulate a counter-ideology which has as its aim the liberation and de-objectification of marginalized groups. The irony in this is that those most often attracted to and who are in a position to utilize postmodern methodology are themselves members of the dominant group, even if only in terms of level of education, and in the attempt to give voice to those historically silenced and oppressed, they frequently run the risk of re-inscribing oppression along very different lines.

According to Newton, in "The Mythic Mannish Lesbian: Radclyffe Hall and the New Woman" (1984), the figure of Stephen Gordon "was and remains an important symbol of rebellion against male hegemony" (281) because of the way she challenges the "natural" relationship between sex and gender. As Newton notes, the "mannish lesbian should not exist if gender is natural" (291), and the sexologists answer that she is, in fact, the victim of "inversion" does not work in the case of Stephen Gordon. According to Newton, who counters the feminist critique that the novel perpetuates the stereotypes created by the sexologists, the character of Stephen Gordon is not "mannish" because she wants to be a man, but for the more complicated reasons of resistance to the dominant construction of "femaleness," and decision to publicly announce and act on her desire for other women -- which, in a phallocentric culture, means appropriating the male role.

The claim Newton is making for Hall's character is that, rather than capitulating to the dominant construction of lesbian identity as a defect of nature, she instead destabilizes gender categories by exposing them as roles that can be assumed by either sex. Masculinity then becomes nothing but a social role, albeit one accorded power and dominance in the culture, and therefore women who reject the prohibitive and dehumanizing role of "femininity" symbolize this rejection by "cross-dressing," appropriating the codes and symbols of masculinity while remaining fully female. Role-playing then becomes, at least for the "butch" woman, a challenge to heterosexuality rather than a replication of it.

Despite recent theoretical trends which make Newton's reading of Hall's novel seem "obvious," there has long been a good deal of resistance within the dominant culture, and especially within lesbian-feminism, to the idea of the mannish woman, due largely to the failure to see the power of such a figure as a challenge to stereotypes rather than a fulfillment of them. Martha Vicinus traces the resistance to this particular type of lesbian identity in her essay, "'They Wonder to Which Sex I Belong': The Historical Roots of the Modern Lesbian Identity" (1989). According to Vicinus, there have been times in history when it was considered socially acceptable for women to fill male social and economic roles, the most notable example being during wars, but as soon as these periods of necessity end, the dominant culture seems to forget that it was possible for women as women to cross gender boundaries into male roles.

When there is no clear social need for gender-crossing, women who do so face public persecution, and with the increasing influence of the sexologists around the turn of this century, persecution might involve being labelled a "congenital invert." Of course the irony is that many women adopt a masculine style of dress and behavior precisely in order to signal their desire for other women, with little regard for whether their condition is the product of a birth defect or simply a choice, so that the label has little effect except as a means of inspiring fear in the culture at large. In other words, they are not mannish because their nature compels them to be, an assumption which rests on the belief that sex and gender are the same thing; "mannish women" instead disrupt the sex/gender system by crossing genders out of choice, which therefore challenge the very foundation on which compulsory heterosexuality is built. Such women, according to Vicinus, also lay the foundations of what later lesbians would appropriate as the "butch" identity.

[Runcible Spoon]

1. Very interesting stuff.

I'm really into practice theory, poststructuralist, and agency stuff, but postmodernism as a movement was a very instructive and important precursor.

[bluedawg12]

2. How does this strike you as an academic theory?

Namely that masculine women are not co-opted by the dominant culture, but, rather, actively taking power? (My paraphrasing)

Does it sound credible?

[Runcible Spoon]

3. Hmm...let's see...

Generally, we anthropologists look at identity as recursively structured through individual agency and social pressures from every angle, such as media, peers, schools, environment...just about anything you can think of. We analyze these interactions through looking at areas or "ground" where these encounters occur and call them as social institutions as points of reference. A social institution is something general, like education, government, media, etc. I'm going from memory right now but some theoreticians like Bourdieu and Giddens break them down. You are constantly remaking yourself through all of your choices, but these choices are influenced and restrained by many cultural factors.

So in short, I would say that masculine women are most definitely taking power not only situationally but also structurally. Anything that actively undermines, and they certainly DO undermine, "naturalized" assumptions about something that seems so deceptively innate, like the relationship between sex/gender roles, is certainly taking power in a very fundamental way. A monumental amount of effort must be put into maintaining this sex/gender, male/female, masculine/feminine dichotomy and make it seem innate.

However, such women are still very marginalized so I would simultaneously argue that they also can be situationally dis-empowered; this can occur by being abused, beaten, denied employment, socially ostracized, etc.

That's why we call it recursive :)

[bluedawg12]

4. I follow you. Thanks for the feed back.

This is exactly the point I was making in another thread, that, it is the act of assuming a power role, that leads to violence against lesbians, in many cases.

However, the issue then becomes, is it, to use your terminology, "structured through individual agency," and influenced by society to some degree, or, as the OP I posted discussed, part of some intrinsic aspect of the person, which is what "sexologists," study.

My opinion is that it is variable and of course unique case by case. However, very few "butch" women, that I know, and this is empirical, study how to be masculine any more or less, then males and are drawn to that in the same way as males, as something they perceive as positive to emulate starting early in life.

It may be individual agency, i.e. volitional, it may also be hormonal. I'd be interested in someday looking at hormonal studies in utero, infancy, pre-puberty, puberty and adulthood, if any such studies exist.

What ever it is, it is probably a combination of things and comes in a spectrum from "Jo the tomboy" in Little Women , to transgender people, who feel they are assigned the wrong body.

I am going to speculate, that it is more or less similar for males who do not identify, with cultural gender norms.

In that sense, both males and females, who live their lives in opposition to cultural gender norms do so first, without thinking of all of the ramifications, that are retroactively assigned to them by academics, viz a viz, the work by Newton, in "The Mythic Mannish Lesbian: Radclyffe Hall and the New Woman", nor do they consider the political implications as mentioned by Amy Goodloe, in Lesbian Identity and the Politics of Butch-Femme Roles, that, "the dominant form of feminist discourse has, in attempting to "liberate" lesbian identity from patriarchal control...This is perhaps most obvious in the feminist critique of role playing among lesbians, which is considered by the dominant feminist discourse to be a barrier to one's "true" identity as a woman (assuming that there is such a thing)," what ever the etiology, the gender identification would in my opinion come early in life for people who identify with the opposite gender role, as it does come early in life, for people who identify with their culturally appropriate gender role.

I am speculating, that if I asked 500 heteronormative and "gender appropriate" females and 500 heteronormative and "gender appropriate" females, when did you first decide to behave as a woman or as a man, they would say, "Never, I never thought about it. I'm a girl/boy and have always acted as such." I have a hypothesis, that the same is true for so-called masculine women and for feminine men.

As is often the case, the condition is not so much the problem as is the cultural response.

I agree with your statement, "such women are still very marginalized ... dis-empowered...abused, beaten, denied employment, socially ostracized, etc."

Which maybe the reason for this thread and the bee in my bonnet today.

It finally dawned on me that this is a topic little studied, even female same sex relationships and female sexuality are little studied and it is rarely discussed.

While I read about terms such as "Queer" culture, I am not sure whose culture that is and what it looks like.

While I read about the marginalization of lesbians and among the cohort of lesbians, "butch-women" are especially marginalized, or as I have read and heard some say, they are "invisible," while that may be actually preferable for survival and has some merit, it does nothing to improve the quality of life and understanding of a group who seems to be "the group of whom we dare not speak."

The first step for me is self education. Thanks for the feed back. Like I said, a lightbulb went off in my noggin today about this topic and about the politics of being gay for women in particular and butch women, in specific.

[Runcible Spoon]

6. absolutely...the only thing I would want to add to what you've said here...

is just a further clarification of what is meant by agency. I wouldn't use the word "volitional", and I totally see your irritation with those who think that "butches" or anyone else for that matter casually and freely just fashion their identity and choose to express it by wearing "men's" clothing, taping down their breasts, etc. Those women struggle and take a lot of abuse trying to express who they are, so it's not something casual, like picking out a shirt in the mall. However, there is the basic choice of expression versus repression, and there are probably complex psychological and emotional factors that go into thinking about the benefits and pains of each. If you choose to "pass", you are repressing a fundamental aspect of yourself and this is painful and damaging. If you express it openly, you risk scorn, ridicule, or worse.

I would suspect that there is some degree of biochemical activity at play here, but where it gets really complicated and interesting is looking at the dichotomies again. In some cultures, there were more lax gender identifications, and intersexed individuals, for instance, actually occupied a different niche of self-identification. So I really feel that these artificial dichotomies are very problematic and restrictive and I wonder how self-identification and projection of self would be different for these women in such cultures. Would they still express "masculine" behaviors/aesthetics or would they feel more naturally inclined to fit into another gender category? I wish I knew of further research into this; most of the Western world has embraced the dichotomy we were discussing as a direct correlate to the rise of Christianity.

Wow, I really got off into a tangent but this is really interesting to me and it's nice to have someone to talk to about it! I guess in sum, my original point was just to emphasize that there is no such thing as a truly free action or choice, and as such agency should be considered as the action/expression or even repression (since doing nothing is certainly doing SOMEthing in this context) of many different kinds of pressures and influences, including psychological/emotional. There certainly IS conscious choice, but it is highly contingent upon the other influences. That is the essential core of practice theory, and as a theoretical framework I think it can do justice to the complexity and sensitive nature of the topic at hand.

[bluedawg12]

13. This leads to further interesting points.

I agree that cultural pressure, for example, first and foremost, family comes to mind.
Johnny gets a toy gun, Mary gets a doll.

Then, from that point onward, peers, school, work all combine to exert powerful, very powerful, forces on people to act their proper gender role.

What triggers a child to be contrary is probably psychological, risks vs, benefits, but also, there is some hormonal element, for sure. Just not certain how much. Someday, when it’s not a Sunday pre-work night, I will sniff around some literature. :)

There is another aspect, namely socioeconomic.

This is just an observation, but, for those women who come from a less well educated and more of a blue collar or rural background, they tend to reflect the masculine role of their own socio-economic background. Why not? It makes intuitive sense.

For women of a different background they reflect their own peer group.

For example, I am an homebody these days, but we do go out occasionally to a regular ( meaning not a gay place) Casino, which is a great cross section of society and fun for people watching.

This is regardless of their age, young or old doesn’t matter, but the summer college crowd reflects a different look for gay women. The so called “butch” versions, are maybe sporty, but still very clean cut, collegiate and that group would not for example, be as likely to do some old style things, such as tapping breasts, which, I have heard of, but probably not actually seen. These may be more like the women’s athletics types, but still top siders, polo shirts and khaki shorts. Taller, leaner, better nutrition, in short all of the things that go with a higher socio-economic group as a whole.

The other socio-economic group, would be more like the straight women in their group, but style wise dress with the flair of their male cohorts, for their peer group.

So, this does bring out an interesting thing about style and butch women and the stereotypes that float around in society.

The best visual image I can come up with at the moment is, Ellen DeG. I see her as butch. Her partner is Portia DeRossi, I see her as fem.

The thing about “mens” clothing is tricky too. As many items have both male and female styles. I like Brooks Brothers and Ralph Lauren and I note, that pretty much everything short of dresses and skirts, come in men’s and women’s sizes and styles.

BTW- for the record, even RedWing work boots comes in men’s and women’s sizes, in case any one was taking fashion notes. :eyes:

However, to get back to your point, yes our culture, our Western culture, does go in and out of cycles with defining gender roles. I recall the Doc Martin combat boots look for teen-girls a few years ago, I recall the grunge look, then, with shrub and the repugs, the Libby Dole, Nancy Reagan look came back for the older set, and Pickles(Laura) set the tone for women in the 20-50 range. My take on that was, that conservative politics placed men back into suits full time, pants suits were out for women in public/business/political life and now I just heard today, that men have a reprieve and can breath a sigh of relief, President Obama relaxed the dress code in the oval office, and is working with his jacket off!!!! LOL.


Even as I digress, it brings up another thought. That being “butch” for women, or being masculine is not about the clothes, it is an attitude.

It is an attitude of well, independence from the expected and ingrained unquestioning acceptance of male superiority, or in fact, importance.

Now, this is not an anti-male diatribe, nor heading that way. Some of my best friends are men. :rofl: Truly. It’s just that I like ‘em, but don’t need ‘em for anything, other than being pals. Guys don’t need guys for anything other than being pals. I think that is sort of the essence of being butch and I am going to have to guess that, in and of itself, is liberating. No matter what I wear.

That of course goes against the grain of cultural conservatism, much of organized religion and so we keep that a secret. So, please tell no one. :evilgrin:

[soothsayer]

5. this is why transgenderism throw me for a loop. i see gender roles as thing you can reject really

easily these days (i can be a woman who rides motorcycles, smokes cigars, etc. and it's no big deal) so as much as I try to wrap my little ol leasbian head around what it means to feel like a woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa, I don't get it. not to invalidate it---obviously folks feel strongly enuff about it to go through enormous changes, but I just don't get what difference the plumbing makes in terms of how you live your life.

well, having said that, I do realize that society does treat men and differently strictly based on gender, bur I feel there's a lot less black and white and a lot more gray.

[bluedawg12]

7. I am not sure and I would love to hear from transgender folks

about that.

I suspect it has to do with more than just having certain freedoms, as you mentioned, many of us can slide in and out of certain behaviors these days, and not cause an eyebrow to be lifted.

I am speculating, but I think transgendered people see it as the entire package ( not a pun, I swear) is at mismatch with who they truly are. Not just externals like plumbing, but stuff that gets brought out with hormones, voice, beard, muscle mass. Then, there is the whole notion of being able to live ones life as the gender (sex) that they feel they are, at their core. I am stumbling over some of this language because it is a little new to me, to be fully confident, so if I use the wrong term, I hope someone corrects me, so I can say things properly.

You mentioned motorcycles and cigars, well that brings to mind some other thoughts. I see quite a few clearly str8 women, who are pretty tough. I also see a lot of plain old, nice farm gals, who are sturdy and outdoorsy and wear no make up, and often, as I see them with their husbands, I kind of chuckle, because they could "pass for gay." :rofl:

Then, there is another question. Just what is a masculine woman? Is Ellen DeG. butch? Is Rosie O'D butch?

Sometimes, masculine is thrown at women, for simply being too assertive and G-d forbid, the "A" word
--->>>> "Aggressive." :rofl: Oh the horror! :hide:

[Runcible Spoon]

9. I've learned to "own" being called aggressive :D

Fuck 'em!

[bluedawg12]

14. ....

:rofl:

[Runcible Spoon]

8. It blew my mind when I found out that there were actually other genetic sexes beyond XX and XY

Of course, we are all familiar with Down's Syndrome but there are many people out there who have a different chromosomal configuration and would never know it. Other chromosomal configurations manifest in physiology, like individuals with Klinefelter's which would be XXY. Men with this often have enlarged breast tissue, reduced ability to grow body hair, etc.

As you know and have undoubtedly experienced, society tries to shoehorn everyone into convenient categories, with privilege and power given to those who "fit". Education is powerful; I find myself constantly astonished by what I learn about humanity too!

[DarkTirade]

11. Heh, yeah, I remember the first time I ever met someone who was openly bi.

That blew my mind at the time too. I never knew anything existed outside of gay and straight. I'd always assumed that since I liked boobies, I was straight too.

Never did really figure it out until I was 19. :)

[bluedawg12]

16. Now, see, I am learning a lot here too. I never really thought about Bi much before DU.

I still don't understand it, exactly, because I am not. At all.

Some people have said, I recently saw a thought provking comment here on GLBT, about being Bi as the ultimate goal, because it would mean that people were truly liberated to feel their own feelings, the assumption was that we are all Bi. Actually, I could no more be Bi, then, I could be str8. It seems like that would be partly str8.

On the other hand, no one needs for me to be Bi and I don't need to be Bi, in order to understand and accept that some folks are Bi. And that's cool. It turns out some people are S/G or B. I don't think the world will crumble and it makes me happy that there are people out there who have found love and happiness.

[DarkTirade]

19. Yeah, I remember dating someone who I wasn't attracted to once just to 'prove' to myself that I

wasn't 'shallow'.

I'm not shallow. I just wasn't attracted to this person. Any more than I would expect a straight man to be attracted to me. At a certain point I realized that I do have a sexual orientation/preference/ect. and she was just outside of it. We ended up being good friends. I still hung out with her all the time. But I can't change my sexual orientation to include someone who isn't naturally going to be in it.

And I think it's rather a silly thing to try and be something you aren't naturally. So I see that 'ultimate goal' thing as rather silly. :) We are who we are.

[bluedawg12]

21. Yeah, the chemistry is either there, or not.

:hide:

[DarkTirade]

23. Exunctly.

And no amount of self-deception or aversion therapy is gonna change that.

[bluedawg12]

15. Exactly, the genetic complement may not always be the same for all people

and that affects hormones, which affect body type and characteristics.

There is so much emphasis on fitting in to a certain mold, that, it's considered OK to kill people who don't fit in???? Hence, the hideous crimes against trans folks, out of sheer pitchfork and torches in the night fear. :grr:

Education and information are powerful, indeed. The more I think about where I expected society to be in terms of tolerance and acceptance, the more I feel the need to udnerstand how we got so derailed, divided and intolerant.

[DarkTirade]

10. And those of us who are in the grey tend to confuse people who see things as black and white.

Just by existing and not conforming to their idea of gender. :shrug:

[bluedawg12]

17. Live and let live, among consenting adults seems like a plan.

As long as no one is abused or exploited.

[DarkTirade]

18. ... unless they're into that sort of thing.

:P

[Eryemil]

27. I've never felt particularly attached to my male sex...

...yet I am a fairly content gay man and pretty much identify as male in terms of gender. It's certainly never caused me any strife.

I suppose I am on the other end of the spectrum of those that can't really identify with trans folk. It's not that I cannot see myself as being of the other sex is that that I am not really attached to my actual sex. I doubt my life would change much if I were a woman, with the possible exception of having a lot more available men to fuck.

When it comes to trans issues I am content to take their word for it, after all, who is more likely to know their situation?

[marimour]

31. I think its probably similar..

to women who get a mastectomy. Plenty of women have a hard time after them because, although we don't need breasts to be a woman, when they are gone, some struggle with the feeling that they aren't truly women without them. There are plenty of things that people who feel they should have been born a woman can do to behave like a woman, but its hard to truly feel like one when you cant do one of the major things (have sex) the way a woman can.

[DarkTirade]

12. Heh, funny that this is the first thing I see right after clicking on this link on another forum...

French photojournalist Guillaume Herbaut spent some time with an unusual and tough group of 150 Ukrainian women who call themselves “Asgarda.” These women live in the Carpathian Mountains and follow a rigorous routine of fighting and boxing, often with medieval weaponry.
http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22360/65946-tribe-ukrainian-fighting--pics-?CMP=ILC-MoreFromWdgt

[bluedawg12]

20. Good for these young women! I know that part of the world.

It's a place ravaged by war, occupation and violence. The traditional lives of women here has not been too easy since the second WW or even before.

I would rather see these young women be healthy athletic and strong than, exploited in some drugged haze in a brothel.

I had a friend from Russia, an inter net pal, and he told me about the Orange Revolution.

Here is their idol, a successful woman. Thanks for sharing this. Interesting stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Yulia<1> Volodymyrivna Tymoshenko (Ukrainian: Юлія Володимирівна Тимошенко <'julijɑ ʋɔlɔ'dɪmɪriʋnɑ tɪmɔ'ʃɛnkɔ> Julia Volodymyrivna Tymošenko) (born on November 27, 1960) is a Ukrainian politician and current Prime Minister of Ukraine. She is the leader of the All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" party and the Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc.

Before becoming Ukraine's first female Prime Minister, Tymoshenko was one of the key leaders of the Orange Revolution. In this period, some Western media publications dubbed her as the "Joan of Arc of the Revolution".<2>

Prior to her political career, Yulia Tymoshenko was a successful but controversial businesswoman in the gas industry, which made her wealthy. Tymoshenko first became Prime Minister in 2005 between January 24 and September 8. She was elected again as PM on December 18, 2007 and is considered a possible candidate for the President of Ukraine in 2010.<3><4> She has twice been ranked by Forbes magazine among the most powerful women in the world; during her first term, in 2005, she was ranked third (behind only Condoleezza Rice and Wu Yi)<5>, and during her second, in 2008, she was ranked at number 17.<6>



Yowzer. Err..I mean, she looks like my now elderly mom as a young woman.

[DarkTirade]

22. Not just athletic and strong, but also able to kick ass and/or take names when if they need to.

:)

[readmoreoften]

24. For more information see butch-femme.com

I couldn't date another feminine lesbian. Just the way I am. Not that I wouldn't have a one-night stand with one, but there would be something seriously missing romantically with an androgynous lesbian or another femme.

[bluedawg12]

25. I understand totally.

I am only attracted to fems, other butch women are great because they are pals, like the guys in my life.

I have very clear rules ... it's just easy that way. Altough it does narrow down the population pool. But I was patient. :evilgrin:

Thanks for the link.

[bluedawg12]

26. rmo- If you happen to drop by again, could you tell me

is there some political opposition to being B/F?

I mean in know there is in str8 culture, but is there some gay women's political position adversarial to this?

I am curious if there is, then, how is that justified? I mean people are what they are. That's what I was trying to get at in this thread and article, that some women appear or present themselves as stereotypically more masculine. It's who they are. Likewise, some men are more feminine. Why change on a political basis?

[readmoreoften]

28. Oh hell yes there is. The history of lesbian politics is almost defined by it.

Butch-Femme was a working-class configuration for female same-sex relationships throughout the 20th century (in the late 19th century it was common, but not a 'structure' as far as I know.) Before the 1950s, the concept 'sexual inversion' theorized that only the butch (inverted or now 'transgendered') was a lesbian. The femme or 'her girlfriend' was not a lesbian, and in fact the same as a straight woman. The femme, though, was thought to be sexually "retarded", and seduced by the invert. Being butch was a crime (lesbianism) but being femme could wind you up in a psych ward.

In the 1950s and 1960s a working-class culture of B-F (both equally lesbian) developed in the bars. Butches protected the community (including the gay men) from sociopaths and femmes often supported their butches financially since they could find jobs as secretaries or sex workers.

The 1970s middle-class 'college feminism' harshly rejected B-F configurations as "patriarchal". Butches were called "oppressors" and femmes were "collaborators". Femmes went from being "sexually retarded" to "politically retarded". "Anti-Oppressive" lesbianism was necessarily androgynous to the college lesbians. (And, of course, lesbianism was the reserve of middle class or wealthy women, not those dirty "bar" people.)

Today (and by 'today' I mean post-Stone Butch Blues, post-1994) anti-BF sentiment is usually expressed through "I don't like 'playing roles'" or "I want to be open to be anything I want to be!" (except, I guess, butch or femme) and "all B-F couples do is reinforce 'heteronormativity'"... So somehow, getting turned on when my G-F fixes my car is heteronormative, but if we hired a straight man to do it it's not. (I know, I know. I'm supposed to let my girlfriend fix the car, but I'm not supposed to be turned on by it, and after she's supposed to do something non-masculine to compensate, like plant a flower garden or something, and I'm also supposed to be able to fix my own car. And she shouldn't be turned on by me wearing heels, or we should both be 'fluid' about these things or some such nonsense.)

And, no, I don't consider Rosie or Ellen to be in any way, shape, or form butch--at least in their public appearance. For all I know, Rosie could be femme. Just because she's big and not a glamour queen, doesn't make her butch. Ellen is sort of androgynous--but she definitely does like femmes. She doesn't carry herself in any way butch and doesn't seem to self-identify as butch. She, like Hillary Clinton, just seems to prefer suits jackets and pants. Hell, I do too. To me, there are no media examples of butch women.

Silas Howard and Harry Dodge are as close as it gets to "butch media personae" in my opinion.


butches (I post this for my own visual entertainment... sorry...)





rosie--not so butch, maybe even femme or andro



ellen--not so butch, just andro.

[bluedawg12]

29. Outstanding reply!

I came up in a blue collar area, in the shadows of the steel mills and around the tail end of doo-wap.

So, I recall as a very young pup, seeing some really handsome butch women with their glam femmes go out on Saturday night and my little pals and I would stand around pretending that we would somehow get invited to go along at 13! One of the lead butches was the godmother of one of my group and once we figured out what was what we were always finding excuses to go visit her and her "roommate". :evilgrin:

It was a reflection of the time and socio-economic strata, so picture ducktail haird dos, ( the doo-wop, "Grease" look) tee shirts with a pack of Luckies rolled in one sleeve, tight pants --good grief, it’s like a Billy Joel song???? Yikes! -- and the femmes with the beehive hair-do. And a couple of us would-be litte butchies standing around the kitchen counter, striking a dashing pose, trying to look waaay cool and be noticed as if we were one of the grown-ups. Of course they ignored us, but were kind about it, but it was clear we were just goofy/pesky kids just hanging around trying to be cool.

Well, life, times and upward mobility beat the "60's blue collar butchie" out of me and I had to learn to wear "Villager Dresses" with circle pins and Weejuns and stuff like that in college. Good grief, the class cultural shock was worse than the whole butch/femme thing.

Then, thankfully, the cultural revolution and everyone was in bell bottoms and army surplus gear and it's been a cultural roller coaster ever since.

But, getting back to another thing, it's not the clothes, it's the attitude, I guess of independence, of being reliable, of being strong, competitive, secure, protective.

(Warning ! Danger Will Robinson. Danger! LOL) Then, another funny thing, the same is true of femmes. The biggest mistake is thinking that a woman in high heels and a dress is a pushover or weak or docile.

I can change a tire, or fix a leak or build a deck but the very beautiful and femme mrsbd is a very strong and well developed personality and if I am not careful, I will get my butt kicked with just a "look" or I should say, "the look" :scared: .

Different styles, a balance, some interchanging of roles over the years, I tried cooking and she has tried some home repairs :eyes: but, it is all the way that is most comfortable and seems to balance out.

Could be my dad had an influence on me, he taught me stuff as a pup so we were pals in that sense when I was growing up. However, that is not the core of gayness, which I recall, occurred for me at conception.

It's all pretty complicated and then, at the same time, it's all pretty obvious, it's just people being who they are. But, I do get a kick out of some butch-femme history, now that I think of it and you mentioned some stuff from the old data banks. Heh heh.

Thanks for the link, BTW, I bookmarked that web site and like Metropolis' comments a lot. Especially about being a butch woman is still being a woman, it's not the same at all as being a man. I think that still confuses people in modern society, "if you want to be a man so much then why don't you..."

No, actually it's not about being a man, it's about being who we are and for some that does mean more masculine attributes and style and presentation... I do think society has a harder time understanding/accepting masculine women than they do feminine men. It's seen as a "power grab" and can evoke one of those, "I'll show that so and so what a real man is," responses. So, there is danger there, as well.

We chatted briefly about why lesbians get attacked in another thread, I think it's different then why effeminate men get attacked, it may seem similar on first glance, I don't think it is, though. I bet books and PhD dissertations have, or could be, written on that alone.

There is a lot to be discovered and these are interesting topics, I venture to say, we have a wealth of life stories and information in this forum from women and men and I bet a lot of collective wisdom.

One of the reasons for discussing this, as well, is that people seem to sometimes prejudge butches and are fearful. Butches are not scary. Some of the nicest, kindest, gentlest, brightest, most compassionate and funniest people with a great wit, are butches that I have known. So, getting the word out is not a bad thing.

So what’s wrong with a tool belt or Rosie the Riveter?

[readmoreoften]

30. Wow, you really experienced that history as a butch. That's really amazing.

I came up as a teenager in the 80s, which wasn't as andro as the 70s but seemed to counteract androgyny with a 'femme-femme' explosion. Suddenly everyone was a 'lipstick lesbian' doin it to another 'lipstick lesbian'. Lesbians were 'reclaiming their femininity' but Butch-Femme was still historically erased. I remember as late as 1994 carrying around a LIQUOR AD in my purse of a woman in a tux and a feminine gal so I could explain to people what I wanted in a relationship. How sad is that? Oddly enough, that ad is still one of the only images (if not THE ONLY IMAGE) of a butch-femme pairing in the advertising world.

[bluedawg12]

36. That's kind of my thought about accepting people as they are

rather than boxing someone into a pidgeon hole and then judging them, walking away and then making them invisible, or putting political pressure and all kinds of tortured logic on them, all really under the guise of making people conform, how about, we just say, people are the way they are because that is what suits them internally?

Live and let live in terms of gender expression seems to harm no one, yet, it sure provokes a reaction.

Thanks rmo, for your input, this is a subject that is still very seldom talked of openly and yet, there is no reason why it shouldn't be acknowledged even celebrated.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

32. I think the article feeds into stereotypes

Since the article is 10 years old I hope that people have progressed in their thinking.

[bluedawg12]

34. What stereotypes?

[readmoreoften]

40. Right. "Progressed in their thinking" means eradicating Butch-Femme identity.

Someday us "butches and femmes" will wake up and achieve androgyny and stop being 'stereotypes' and just 'be ourselves.' :eyes:

Actually, that was the 1970s point of view there's not much progressive about it.

[bluedawg12]

41. rmo-you sniffed out the butches and femmes need to go back

in the closet for a nice makeover. :eyes: :grr:

I have got to say, I love the interaction on the butch/femme blog, so sweet, the butches and femmes are so courtly and civilized and very polite and aware of each other. It's very cool.


Have no fear the butches have landed and everything is well in hand.

[bluedawg12]

42. I made this LOL cat just for us on this thread: it's about being different.

Do you ever feel like the different kitteh?

[Two Americas]

33. great discussion

Thanks Spoon, bluedawg, readmoreoften. Very interesting and enlightening discussion.

[bluedawg12]

35. Thanks 2A's, just trying to make the invisible - visible!

:hi:

[Two Americas]

37. yes indeed

It is all life, it is all part of what it means to be human, it is all great.

[bluedawg12]

38. Exactly, it's all good.

We went out tonight and I looked around, we are all just people and funny, no one was perfect.

What's the big deal, everyone is just trying to get by and get along, except for a few hard core extremists in society. That's not who we need to take our cues from. sheesh.

Thanks bro.

[bluedawg12]

39. It's often not the action, it's the reaction.

Interesting and thought provoking comments from an online community.

http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=35621

"I am invisible. I am femme, if I'm with straight girls I'm percieved as straight. If I'm with a person who is visibly butch, I am percieved as lesbian. If I am with a man, I am straight. If I am with my children, I am straight. The community doesn't recognize me unless I use the buzz words, my partner, my gf, etc etc etc."
-clamothe

......

"When I am going through my day to day life I am pretty low key. I look butch so sometimes I am more visible than I would like to be, as far as stares and questions and unwanted attention drawn to me, but overall I navigate pretty well.

Where I feel invisible is sometimes when I am out in public with a femme or a feminine woman (who is not femme). Store clerks or waitresses or waiters will usually direct their attention to the feminine person, because I think that fits their comfort zone. They will be the one asked the questions, etc. Sometimes it is also because I tune out the minute they say, "how are you ladies?" The word lady just has me tuning out. So sometimes I do feel invisible in public interactions."
-bulldog

[bluedawg12]

43. I think Naomi Wolf said it first and better!

"In the early 1990s, Wolf garnered international public notoriety as a spokesperson of third-wave feminism<10><11> as a result of the tremendous success of her first book The Beauty Myth, which became an international bestseller.<12> In the book, she argues that "beauty" as a normative value is entirely socially constructed, and that the patriarchy determines the content of that construction with the goal of reproducing its own hegemony. Wolf posits the idea of an "iron-maiden," an intrinsically unattainable standard that is then used to punish women physically and psychologically for their failure to achieve and conform to it. Wolf criticized the fashion and beauty industries as exploitative of women, but claimed the beauty myth extended into all areas of human functioning. Wolf writes that women should have "the choice to do whatever we want with our faces and bodies without being punished by an ideology that is using attitudes, economic pressure, and even legal judgments regarding women's appearance to undermine us psychologically and politically." Wolf argues that women were under assault by the "beauty myth" in five areas: work, religion, sex, violence, and hunger. Ultimately, Wolf argues for a relaxation of normative standards of beauty.<13>"- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf

[Lilith Velkor]

44. I'm probably what you would call androgynous these days

When I was younger, I was quite butch, even though I had long hair. I dressed like all my guy friends who were into the metal scene, and dated a few poser chicks. (This was in the late '80s.)

The best thing about it was scaring the everloving fuck out of bigots who tried to mess with my gay male buddies. There's an almost indescribable primal joy in confronting a big, stupid jock type and seeing him take that little half step back that lets you know you have won the fight before it even begins.

Ah, good times. Thank you for this thread, and have a great weekend.