Howard Dean thinks we need to give Obama more time

[proud2BlibKansan]

I just had lunch with Howard Dean. I'll post pix and more remarks later. But I did get to ask him a question. I asked what I should tell my fellow teachers who have grown angry with Obama.

He said we need to give Obama more time. He also said AFT has a very successful charter school in NYC and we need to be looking at that model instead of slamming all charters, especially the ones that don't work.

That was in front of the group. Afterwards, I had my picture taken with him and said I disagreed with him. I told him the Obama stickers are off the teachers' cars and he seemed surprised. He said he really likes Randi Weingarten (AFT prez) and he thinks AFT is a lot more child centered than most people see. And he praised the new NEA prez also. He said our teachers unions need to keep our message focused on the kids and what's best for them instead of what's best for teachers and other school district employees. (And I have to agree with that.)

More later . . .

[madfloridian]

1. Sounds like he is just plain unaware, or else just doesn't care.

I am looking up something I read once. I think he is working with a NY charter school group in Harlem....Need to find my link.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Yes that's the AFT charter he mentioned

[tonysam]

24. I am sure he is aware, like all of the Democrats in charge

They are doing the bidding of the World Bank.

[tavalon]

51. Howard Dean cares about a lot but he may have a different opinion about charter schools

I'm horrified by what has happened in Florida and what is happening all over the country to teachers. It's a disgrace and actually probably more about union busting.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Interesting... I would like to know what he thinks about the demonizing of public school teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. I honestly got the impression he wasn't aware of this

:shrug:

[Catshrink]

3. He was surprised that Obama stickers are off teachers' cars?

I figured that Obama & Co. are tone deaf, but I thought Dr. Dean would be more tuned in. Thanks for speaking up. Maybe the message will begin to filter through. I thought someone from "up high" monitored message boards to gauge opinion so they'd know this -- but I've been wrong before.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Well it's a fairly new issue

I have spent the day talking politics with several people here at the training. And very few are aware of what's going on with Obama and education. And these are people who are very active politically.

[mzteris]

16. well, let's be fair - only off SOME teachers' cars...

Maybe you guys live in some sort of weird microcosm, but I haven't seen it here at all. And believe me, I live in TEACHER UNION central. (And yes, I'm talking about the traditional public school teachers, not just the charter public school teachers.)

edit to add: and all those charter public school teachers ARE Union, too!

[LWolf]

4. I look forward to hearing more about your lunch.

I don't agree with him on this issue, to say the least. I'm sure you did a great job voicing our concerns.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

5. Here's why he won't say anything at all against charters.

He is working with Geoffrey Canada, the president and CEO of the Harlem Children’s Zone (HCZ)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/03/dean-pushing-bi.html

"Now that his tenure has ended at the DNC, Dean is working to launch a school readiness program in New York City. The integrated services are expected to include home-nurse visits, parenting workshops, day care, early childhood education, and after-school programs.

"We found a school, there are some wonderful people associated with it, it has especially strong leadership, there are social services in the district," he said. "So, all the ingredients are there. And now the question is: can we coordinate it and can I come up with some money so that nobody gets left behind?"

To learn how to get this project off the ground, Dean has consulted Geoffrey Canada, the president and CEO of the Harlem Children’s Zone (HCZ), a multi-faceted anti-poverty program which includes something called "Baby College," a place where pregnant women and their significant others receive counseling on how to care for newborns.

Dean, who grew up in New York on Park Avenue, is not the only one who has looked to the HCZ program as a model.

While campaigning for president, Obama proposed replicating the Harlem program in 20 cities across the country. He said the federal government would provide half of the funding with the rest of the money coming from philanthropies and businesses."

So you can mark him off the list of Democrats who would stand up for public school teachers.

Oh, I forgot, there is no list.

[Catshrink]

We're screwn.

[mzteris]

17. didya ever stop to think that just MAYBE

these guys know something you guys don't?

jes asking. . . :shrug:

[madfloridian]

18. They know how to turn education into profit.

[tonysam]

25. They THINK they do

They are just total idiots motivated by ideology and greed.

There is NO argument at ALL against the existence of public education--these neolibs oppose it BECAUSE it is public.

NOTHING should be public; everything should be open to the highest bidder.

[mzteris]

30. I completely and totallly support PUBLIC EDUCATION -

I support traditional public schools - along with charter public schools.

Just because a person supports ONE does NOT HAVE TO MEAN that they DON"T support the other!

That's like saying I hate gay people because I'm personally straight. I believe in alternatives and choice. Of course, I'm a DEMOCRAT!

[patrice]

40. Perhaps some of them are trying to create conditions in which things that are more of a hybrid would

evolve: educational co-operatives, owned and operated * Co - Operatively * by professional educators . . . ?

I guess, technically, there's nothing stopping that sort of thing now, but perhaps some are looking to create more of a hot-house environment in which the demand is recognized and has a chance, market-wise, to grow.

[tonysam]

42. Not really. This is about limiting access to higher education.

The World Bank has said this. Education is considered a waste of money. Most students should be educated no further than the seventh or eighth grade because there aren't enough jobs for people with higher education.

And because education is considered a waste of money by the World Bank and the neoliberals, having educated teachers is also a waste of money. It won't be long and high school dropouts or people with no high school education will be "teachers."

The only impediment to worldwide privatization is teachers' unions. Unions and higher education are the only avenues to upward mobility for the vast majority of people. The neoliberals hate that and want to restrict who gets into their exclusive club.

[patrice]

45. So what stops teachers/unions from creating their own schools, to solve their

problems without interference from CEOs or the government?

I know you are going to say there won't be enough of these school-cooperatives to fix the problems for enough people, and that alone will put a cap on how many and what kind of school-cooperatives can be created, but something is always more than nothing and perhaps, given other kinds of changes going on, the critical mass necessary for REAL change is lower than we think . . . ?

[tonysam]

48. Keep pushing this garbage of "choice" and other rot.

I guess you really don't give a flying fig about what is really happening in education.

You just peddle a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with what is going on.

[mzteris]

58. Garbage of "choice" . . . interesting phrase -

sounds like something I'd read elsewhere on other choices that people make.

Why is it "garbage", exactly? Do you not understand that some of us- many of us - not only WANT that choice, but NEED that choice. I mean, you of all people understand the bureaucracy and bs that exists in some schools systems, do you not? And if the system can't or won't change, what are people - who don't have the money for private schools, nor the confidence/ability to homeschool - supposed to do? Just sweat it out? Just sit in a corner and READ when you finish your work 10X faster than every other kid in the room. Or be put in a BEH class because you have a learning difference even though there is nothing wrong with your behaviour? Or be "ignored" by the teacher because the principal because has a beef with your parents? Or be overlooked because you're "good" and quiet and never bother anyone, especially the teacher, even though you have no freaking idea of what's going on in the classroom? Or - well, you get the drift.

What the F is wrong with CHOICE? WTF is wrong with being able to have your child go to a school where they WANT to go every day instead of crying. Where their needs are being individuallly met according to learning style, or personality, or interest, or hey - no institutionalized racism!

Some of these traditional systems are so corrupt and so enmired in the way they "do things" that to effect ANY change at all is nearly impossible. YOU know that! You complain about it nearly every single day.

CHOICE is NOT about "teacher bashing" or "union busting" or any other of the paranoid bs I keeep hearing from the anti-choicers. Its about EDUCATING CHILDREN - in the BEST POSSIBLE WAY FOR THAT CHILD - without COST to that child.

I have stated repeatedly thath I support teachers and believe in higher - much higher - pay. Smaller classrooms. More support. Better opportunities to develop and the flexibility and freedom to actually TEACH instead of this mf testing bs.

I really really really don't get why this is such a problem. FREEDOM OF CHOICE FOR ALL! The narrow (and personalized) focus with which so many people view the world is just maddening!

Do you guys see the difference here? I don't BASH you or your choice or your profession. I don't BASH your schools. But you persist, INsist, on bashing and rejecting and insulting the 100's of thousands of students and parents who have CHOSEN alternative forms of education just because you, personally, don't like it. What about those tens of thousands of TEACHERS who CHOOSE to TEACH in an alternative program? Do you "hate" all of them, too? Do you think their real mwwah-ha-ha-haaaa motive is to subvert and destroy the minds of children so that's why they're in a charter program?

Get real here. This witch hunt against people who support other programs - IN ADDITION TO YOURS - has got to stop. I mean. Really. It's just crazy to think that all these "powerful billionaires" want is to destroy the world. (Ok - some republicans do. . . ) You are NOT the only altruistic people on the freakin planet. Do you really believe that OBAMA "hates children" and wants them all to fail? REally? Have you seen the look on his face - and Michelle's - when they are interacting with schoolchildren? DO you think they're so happy cause they're thinking, "WOO HOO. Here's another little kid whose life I get to ruin! yaaayyyyy!

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[alstephenson]

82. Frustrating, isn't it?

If things aren't changed EXACTLY like our "public school proponents" want, then they want no change at all. Not for anyone. Status quo is the way to go. Does that sound familiar???

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Money. That's what stops them.

[mzteris]

59. p2bl - I will personally help you write the proposals

for the grants necessary to fund your own charter public school. (Ok, so I don't know how, but I didn't graduate scl for nuttin'. I can and will find out how.)

Whatdya say?

[mzteris]

56. oh wow! What a GREAT IDEA! Why didn't someone

think of that before???????????

Oh wait. They did. They're called CHARTER PUBLIC SCHOOLS! :)

[mzteris]

55. WHAT?

Did we read the same documents from the WB on education? ? ?

Could you show me the exact quote where they said "education is considered a waste of money" ??

SNIPPETS from the WB on Education: (http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTEDUCATION/0,,menuPK:282391~pagePK:149018~piPK:149093~theSitePK:282386,00.html)

The World Bank has supported education in developing countries since 1963 during which period it has transferred more than US$41 billion in loans and credits for education. The Bank’s strategic thrust is to help countries integrate education into national economic strategies and policies and develop holistic and balanced education systems which are responsive to the socio-economic needs of countries. The World Bank is a major supporter of Education for All, an international effort to provide every boy and girl in the developing world with a full, good-quality, free and compulsory primary school education. Together with country and global partners, the World Bank has vigorously worked to map out the path to reach the Millennium Development Goal for education by 2015. Through the Fast Track Initiative (FTI), the Bank along with all major donors for education—more than 30 bilateral, regional and international agencies and development banks—works to accelerate progress toward meeting the education development goals.

The World Bank’s support for education has a dual focus: to help countries achieve universal primary education and to help countries build the higher-level and flexible skills needed to compete in today's global, knowledge-driven markets, what we call Education for the Knowledge Economy. As with all World Bank assistance, lending is only one part of a broader package of services. Lending in the education sector is complimented with policy advice and analysis, sharing of global knowledge and good practices, technical assistance and capacity building, and support for consensus-building. These non-financial services are crucial to ensure that countries make effective use of aid.


. . . Knowledge generation and dissemination is an equally important element of Bank work in education. This type of work includes research in key areas of education such as lifelong learning, teacher training, education quality, tertiary education, school-based management, bilingual education, labor market outcomes, private sector participation, girls’ education and economics of education.

Global Challenges faced by the Education Sector

Access to Education: Despite significant progress in the last two decades about 75 million primary school age children still do not attend school; 41 million of these children are girls. Some 264 million adolescents of secondary school age are not currently enrolled. Additionally, over 800 million adolescents and adults lack literacy skills which could equip them with the skills needed to work their way out of poverty; they represent some of the poorest in their societies, and 2/3 of them are women. Demographic projections suggest that developing countries will have an additional 80 million children of primary and secondary school age by the year 2025.

Equity in Education: Access to education is particularly constrained for girls and poor or rural children. There is tremendous variation in access and enrollment in school within and across countries. In the developing world, the richest 20 percent of the population is almost three times as likely to be enrolled in school as the poorest 20 percent of the population.

...Education quality and learning outcomes: In many developing countries less than 60 percent of primary school pupils who enroll in first grade reach the last grade of schooling. Additionally, pupil teacher ratios in some countries are in excess of 40:1 and many primary teachers lack adequate qualifications. Recent learning assessment initiatives in the Africa region and the Latin America and the Caribbean region show there is a large learning gap between industrial and developing countries.

Social Cohesion and the Construction of Democratic Traditions: Education systems are rarely neutral in terms of social cohesion and the building of democratic traditions.

Financing of education: Eight years after the pledge by world leaders that "no country seriously committed to Education for All will be thwarted in its achievement of universal primary education due to a lack of resources," Official Development Aid for education has increased only modestly. Current levels of external funding commitments are low, and not sufficiently predictable to enable low income countries make to medium to long-term plans that will sustain the development of their primary education systems. If the goal of universal primary completion is to be achieved by 2015, low income countries would need at least US $3.7 billion a year of support.

Global competitiveness: Political and macroeconomic factors being equal, what seems to distinguish the well performing countries from the less successful ones is their total factor productivity, which is driven largely by the quality of their human capital and their capacity to obtain, apply and generate knowledge. In the successful countries, skills, technology, education and the economy interact in important ways to create a virtuous cycle of productivity each feeding on the other. Today, there are tremendous disparities in tertiary education enrollment between developed and developing countries even despite the recognized impact of tertiary education on national productivity, competitiveness, and economic growth. Tertiary enrollment is 93.2 percent in Finland, 17.0 percent in Indonesia, 10.2 percent in Nigeria, and 1.5 percent in Mozambique.

Threats to education systems: Armed conflict and HIV/AIDS continue to ravage education systems and to compound existing challenges. Zambia loses about 1,000 teachers to HIV/AIDS each year. About 1/3 of the countries in Africa are engaged in some form of civil conflict. Poor health and malnutrition prevent children from attending school and from learning while in school. Education needs a growing economy to provide the necessary revenues and to create jobs. Likewise, a growing economy needs education to provide a skilled labor force and scientific and technological leadership.





(PS - I thought you hated teachers unions . . . )

[adnelson60087]

26. Nope. Not a chance of that.

They've never been inside a classroom for any significant period of time and seem to get their knowledge of education from whom?? Teachers? Certainly not. Testing companies? Yup. Research scientists? Not nearly enough. Corporate Interests? OF Course!! I don't give the benefit of the doubt to people who seem out to destroy public education.

[mzteris]

29. never been inside a classroom?

Want to rethink that statement.

I mean, I know what you thought you were saying, but it's not what you said, now is it?

Unless one has always been homeschooled and never goes to college, we ALL spend a huge chunk of our lives in classrooms. And THEN if we have kids we send to school, that's additional "classroom" experience.

Again, I know what you "meant" to say - and I disagree with your interpretation, btw....

I think Obama IS the smartest one in the room and he surrounds himself with really smart people.

To say that they only want to "destroy" traditional public schools systems is just like saying "OBAMA is a muslim non-american terrorist who wants to destroy America" - is that what you think? Really?

I'm sorry you disagree with the philosophy of many many MANY well-educated and extremely intelligent people who support educational alternatives, but don't for a minute believe that every one of them/us is out to "destroy" ANYTHING at all except maybe some institutionalized racism, out-moded/dated systems, disparate treatment, unequal opportunity, and hate, bigotry, and ignorance.

And now you think HOWARD DEAN is part of some "master plan" to destroy traditional public schools? I think that may be a reach for even some of the most hard-core anti-Arne people in here.

[alstephenson]

83. Wow. You really went there.

Me? I don't have the balls. But I agree with you 100%.

[alstephenson]

81. Ha! Good luck with that train of thought around here...

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. The problem with that children's zone model

is the expense.

Until we fix this budget problem we can't afford to copy that program.

[DCBob]

7. I agree, good for Howard..

It takes time to turn a battleship.

[madfloridian]

10. More about Geoffrey Canada and his zero tolerance creed.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/sorry-geoffrey-canada-but-fail.html

"Sorry Geoffrey Canada, but failure IS an option, a reality, and even a boon

My guest is Diana Senechal, who taught for four years in the New York City public schools and is writing a book about the loss of solitude in schools and culture.

By Diana Senechal
Calling for more school choice, Geoffrey Canada, president and CEO of the Harlem Children’s Zone, began his March 27 New York Daily News op-ed with the following:

"Visitors to my public charter school often ask how the students feel about the signs on the walls that say: ’Failure is not an option.’ They are surprised to hear that the signs are really for the staff."

There are two ethical problems with declaring that failure is not an option. First of all, failure exists everywhere, chosen or not, and to deny it is to deny reality. Second, without the option of failure, we would have no freedom of will; we would have to succeed at everything, and the success would lose meaning."

[madfloridian]

11. And what happened to 7th and 8th grades?

"Its efforts and achievements are for the most part admirable. Its schools include the Promise Academy Charter Schools. Curiously, grades 7 and 8 are not mentioned on the Promise Academy Web site (although the HCZ Web site does mention them).

What happened to those grades? Apparently failure happens even in the HCZ. In March 2007, Canada announced that he was phasing out the Promise Academy middle school, which originally was intended to expand into a high school. The graduating eighth graders would have to find high schools elsewhere. And there would be no incoming sixth grade. Why?

The preliminary test scores weren’t high enough. (See chapter 10 of Paul Tough’s "Whatever It Takes"). Performance has since improved, but no one has bothered to put the seventh and eighth grades on the Promise Academy Web site. If “failure is not an option,” then presumably those who fail cannot fully exist."

[Catshrink]

13. Ssshhhhhh

you weren't supposed to notice that!

[nightrain]

12. is Dean the new face of the New Dem approach to corporate educating?

[madfloridian]

15. Most Democratic leaders are on board with corporate educating.

Yes, he is as well.

[alstephenson]

85. Oh, come on.

[mzteris]

14. so is the Dean bashing going to start now? n/t

[patrice]

28. yes

[Dinger]

87. Yes Again (nt)

[madfloridian]

19. Geoffrey attacks unions.

"The status quo, which got us to this terrible place, is obviously not going to get us out. President Obama and Education Secretary Arne Duncan have taken promising steps at the federal level: creating the Race to the Top initiative to spur wholesale education reform and beginning to revamp the No Child Left Behind Law.

Unfortunately the legislative outlook in New York State is not nearly as hopeful. The state submitted a flawed application for Race to the Top. Yes, we are a finalist - but it is improbable that we will get money unless legislators in Albany remove a number of roadblocks to higher student achievement. One of the biggest problems is that the state is currently prohibiting the growth of charter schools.

The United Federation of Teachers, with its lobbying muscle, along with some politicians living in the communities most devastated by failed schools, are the leading voices preventing charter school growth. It is easier for them to scapegoat charter schools than lead the way down the tougher path of education reform. They pretend that charter schools are the problem, ignoring the fact that these same districts have been failing since I was attending Public School 99 in the South Bronx in the 1960s.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/03/28/2010-03-28_charters_hypocritical_enemies.html#ixzz0lNz8fBfn

[madfloridian]

20. Geoffrey says adults are to blame for any failures in kids' lives.

"To Canada, adults are responsible for the success of the children in their lives—whether that be their own children, the children who attend their schools, or children in their neighborhoods. Any failure at the Harlem Children’s Zone (HCZ) is considered the fault of an adult.

“If you fail our children,” he said, “then you can’t work with them.”"


http://schoolboardnews.nsba.org/2010/04/geoffrey-canada-is-saving-harlems-children/

He also says college is the only goal.

"Geoffrey Canada expects all the children who attend the Harlem Children’s Zone schools to go to a four-year college. Not a trade school, not the military–even though there is nothing wrong with those options for other children and those paths could be considered a monumental accomplishment for the impoverished, at-risk populations he serves.

“You have to have aspirations for all kids, and for me, that’s college,” he explained at a Sunday luncheon for members of the National Black Caucus of School Board Members. “The only goal I have is for all these kids to go to college. If you get paid to work with other people’s kids, you should have the same aspirations for them as you have for your own children. And I have yet to see a wealthy person who did not want all of their kids to go to college.”


Neither of those are realistic in nature.

Kids are responsible for learning and for behavior.

[Catshrink]

21. "Kids are responsible for learning and for behavior."

I'd say yes to this at the high school level and in increasing amounts in the middle/junior high schools. Adults need to teach kids how to learn and behave in the elementary grades and instill in them a love of learning. These adults are primarily the parents whose attitudes in turn affect a child's attitude toward school. By high school, I expect them to be responsible for studying, learning, and to know how to behave appropriately.

[mzteris]

35. +100!

Hey - we agree on something! kathunk!

Although, I've seen a LOT of "elementary aged" kids who do this as well, Cat. Self-directed learning is appropriate for some kids from nearly the beginning...

[NYC_SKP]

22. Recommended and thanks for sharing with us his thoughts.

I happen to agree on these points:

"He said we need to give Obama more time. He also said AFT has a very successful charter school in NYC and we need to be looking at that model instead of slamming all charters, especially the ones that don't work."

I think we'd be a stronger voice for better public schools if we could agree that not all charter schools are private charters, and that some of the public charters are doing great work for their students and communities.

Are these representative of all public charters, nationwide? I have no idea.

And I share the popular fear that too many are for-profit private enterprises that hurt public education.

:thumbsup:

[mzteris]

65. one more time: ALL CHARTER schools are PUBLIC schools!

They are NOT PRIVATE schools. Anyone can go, without paying a dime. They meet the same educational standards, take the same standardized tests, and have the same level of accountability - in terms of performance - as every other school in their district/state.

All charters are public and all charters are non-profit.

Appx 10% of charters are MANAGED by a "for profit" management organization. Some traditional public schools are managed by them as well. (the % for these is smaller each year.)

Appx 11% of charters are MANAGED by NON-Profit management organizations.

The other 80ish percent of all charter schools are founded and managed by local members of the community, including teachers and other school administration officials, parents, and concerned businessmen/women of their communities.


and FYI - some charters are Unionized and some traditionals are NOT.

[NYC_SKP]

66. .

You're not going to get an argument from me.

I just don't know how things are done nationwide and there is a huge fuss over "private" "for profit" charter schools taking over, yada yada.

As I said,

"I think we'd be a stronger voice for better public schools if we could agree that not all charter schools are private charters.."

Every charter I work with is a public charter school and almost every one is a superior school with innovative programs and high success rates.

If it happens to be true that nationwide there is no such thing as a public charter school, then you have your work cut out for you convincing no small number of others that it's true.

FWIW, I think many insist that any school that has selective enrollment policies should not be considered a "public" charter school.

But that's their argument, not mine.

Believe me on this.

:patriot:

[mzteris]

67. The "fuss" is all bs stuff.

Not all are "private charters". NONE are "private charters".

A lot of traditional public schools have "selective" enrollment policies.

Some schools MUST have "selective enrollment" - as in my son's Spanish immersion school. For upper grades, you have to be bilingual and BILITERATE on grade level in order to go there. Which only makes sense. In the primary entry grades - there are "set-asides" of appx 50% for Native Spanish speakers and non-native Spanish speakers. . .

Sorry - didn't mean to seem like I was jumping on you. I just hear this argument time and again and it's all so blatantly FALSE! I don't understand what part of it they don't understand. It's very plain and simple. Charters are free public schools . Period.

I do get a wee bit carried away on occasion.

[madfloridian]

84. That is just absolutely not true.

They call themselves public, they do get public money. But that is where the public part ends.

[alstephenson]

86. Save your time and effort, mzteris.

According to some here ALL charter schools are BAD. Period.

[zipplewrath]

23. I understand what he means but

I mean, he is really saying "give him more time before you give up on him". Okay, I don't think I'll ever "give up". But the flip side is that currently, I have no real choice but to "give" him more time. He gets 3 more years. In the interim though, I think it is perfectly reasonable to object on a case by case basis. It's even okay to "question" the direction he's headed. I've worked directly with people I greatly admired, and thought they had better skills and experience than I. None the less, if I thought they were making mistakes, I'd tell them. I might even work to prove my point. Generally, they appreciate it (there's always the guy that hates to be questioned). In one way, "not giving up" means continuing to advise and counsel, even to the contrary of their decisions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Dean also said

that because we're progressives, we disagree with each other. And that's a good thing:)

[mzteris]

36. and we should LISTEN to each other!

and work together to find a solution instead of rejecting what you don't like/understand out-of-hand.

(Well, if he didn't say that, he should have! :D )

[zipplewrath]

43. He listens

Then he goes and brags to the GOP how he rejected the progressive's ideas. Not exactly they way to treat friends. He's CoS calls us "retarded". And, reverses himself on campaign promises. But as I say, I have nothing else to do but to "give" him more time (as if it is mine to give or something).

[mzteris]

60. Howard DEAN? n/t

[Catshrink]

37. Yeah, but remember what Rahm said.

I don't think we're allowed to repeat it though because of the r-word.

[mzteris]

33. I interpreted that to mean,

give him more time to let this work and stop hysterical knee-jerk reaction/rejection without fulling understanding the long-term plan/implications.

Three more years? Think again - he's the most amazing President we've had in FOREVER and you think he's not going to get re-elected? hooooooookay....

And Obama does listen and adjust and try to do what is BEST for all concerned and he really does try to reach consensus and bi-partisanship. It doesn't always happen the way I like it, or as fast as I like it, or for the reasons I like, but I think he's done/doing a whole damn sight better than we've had in a long long time.

And again, I think he's looking at a much bigger picture, with way more information and input, and a longer-term goal than anyone in here can possibly fathom.

[zipplewrath]

41. Three more years

Until I have to weigh in again. Until then, I have no choice but to "give him more time".

At that time, I have to decide whether I really want to support a president that brags that he rejects my ideas. (Well, not me personally but.....)

[mzteris]

54. "reject your ideas"

You know I think the world would be just perfect if everyone did everything just the way I wanted. . . but that's probably not gonna happen (and it would probably piss some people off. . .)

It's a spectrum. Some's good, some's great, some's average, some's okay, some's bad, some's awful, some's appalling, some's wonderful - and wouldn't it be wonderful if he could do everything that every body wanted just the way everyone wanted it? I don't think that's possible, do you?

I mean, do you really expect him to be able to do EVERYTHING that you want him to do? It's just not feasible. I'm not happy with everything, no, not by any means, but if it means a choice between him and ANY freakin' Republican, I'm not taking any chances with letting the loonies loose in DC again, ya know?

[zipplewrath]

77. No, I expect him not to brag

It was a "neener neener" to the progressives that he was bragging to the GOP about rejecting our ideas. His CoS called us "retarded". His appointments of Geitner and Rahm weren't meant to encourage progressives. And goodness knows Rick Warren wasn't. We've been his punching bag literally from day 1. Gimto still open, no one is being prosecuted for torture, and the torture photos are now classified. The most progressive aspects of health insurance reform were dropped, and the most regressive features were adopted, in a reverse of his campaign promises. And then he tries to step out and suggest he never campaigned on the public option. And I'm starting to get more worried about DADT.

He hasn't been nice to progressives, and I suspect he intends upon continuing that behavior.

[bluestateguy]

31. Dean is a reformer, not a press secretary for the NEA

and sadly many here at DU fall into the latter category.

[madfloridian]

32. That is not "reform". That is privatization of education.

They call it reform to push their propaganda.

It is the end of public education when there is no party standing up for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I'm not in that latter category

:)

[Catshrink]

39. Yeah, and the rest are shills for the charter school industry.

[mzteris]

61. No, they/we are not!

If I am, then I'm getting grossly underpaid at exactly $0.00 per hour. . .

Are you a "paid shill" for the traditional school system? I mean, after all, you DO get paid by them. I mean, there's a much better argument to be made that you guys are the shills since you are - indeed - being paid by that 'industry'.


Hey Cat - I'll issue the same invitation I have to others. Anytime you want to PM me and set up a meeting, just let me know. Or you could just search back since I joined this place in what - 2002 or 4, I don't remember - and read all my old posts and determine - hey! she really IS "just a mom" who loves her kids and is passionate about education - free and affordable and accessible education - for all.

[patrice]

34. I think the fundamental criteria should be Function & Commitment.

Unfortunately, to implement those two values you need Quality Assurance Processes that HAVE been invented (see Edward Demming et al) but are almost completely unknown in Education (despite its long reverence for folk such as John Dewey and Paolo Freire).

This whole country and education (and health care) at all levels in particular should make an effort to apply at least Demming-esque principles, if only for the reason that it will force a discussion of the FUNCTIONS of various elements in whatever field you're trying to deal with.

[SPedigrees]

44. The main problem with education, IMO, is the lack of a standardized curriculum.

Back in the 1950s when I went to school, EVERY child in America was taught the basics of all subjects regardless of where they went to school... rural, small town, big city, good teachers, not so good teachers, good parents or broken homes, we ALL learned. I can't understand why this is not a priority with ANYONE. The situation with the Texas textbooks should be enough to wake us all up.

[patrice]

46. Dirty words, those! But I am with you on that. There NEEDS to be a balance and there's nothing even

remotely resembling a balance, between standardization and individualization, in the status quo AND in order to begin to create one we need something else that is even dirtier-words and that is somekind of standardization in every-day grading practices that includes equally weighted standard and individual elements.

[Catshrink]

57. Yeah because every single teacher and every single student in every single school

across the whole country is exactly the same. Yeah, that'll work. Honestly. It took me this long to realize that you don't really have a clue. It's clear that you are not a teacher and haven't been inside a classroom for a very long time.

When I'm explaining a concept to my classes I might need to do it a couple of different ways because not all students learn in the same way and at the same pace. Children are not widgets that can be standardized and that's what Arne Duncan doesn't understand. Perhaps if he spent time in a classroom actually teaching instead of just doing photo-ops he'd get a clue.

[mzteris]

63. see? You do get some of the concepts . . .

now if we can just get you to realize that those ALTERNATIVES are not practiced in many systems around in the Country, that overworked teachers and overcrowded classrooms, and ridiculous red-tape, and absolutely no freedom for you - the teacher - to make the adjustments necessary to actually teach ALL the kids in your realm - IS THE REAL PROBLEM here - and one that CAN and IS addressed by oh-so-many of those charter public schools you despise. I wishh all traditional schools could and would do what some of the charters can - but Cat, it's just not happening. Not everywhere and no-where-near-fast enough even where it is.



PS - I'm not sure she meant "standardized curriculum" - more like "standardized standards" of knowledge lol... or maybe she did.

You know my motto: EVERY kid should have an IEP (not the legal red-tape type) - but an individualized plan. And if classrooms were smaller, that would be so much more feasible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Dean talked about standards too

And he said that everywhere in the country 9x9 is 81 and every kid should know that.

[Catshrink]

71. ITA with that.

But not with lockstep "you will teach it this way and at this time" with no ability to monitor and adjust to meet our students' needs.

[SPedigrees]

73. Teachers had plenty of lattitude to teach creatively or otherwise when I went to school.

However there was subject material in each class that had to be taught by the end of the school year. It was a long time ago that I was in school, back in an era when America led the world in educational standards. Now we have now sunk to the lowest depths. That comparison is the best endorsement for the kind of standardized curriculum we had back in the 1950s and before.

[Catshrink]

47. Diane Ravitch addresses this in her book.

She said that the proposed social studies standards were lambasted led by the effort of the Lynn Cheney. I think this was in the 90's.

[madfloridian]

49. "keep our message focused on the kids"

"He said our teachers unions need to keep our message focused on the kids and what's best for them instead of what's best for teachers and other school district employees"

He sounds just like Arne Duncan.

Making it sound like teachers are selfish and not thinking about the kids....while he is working to turn our schools over to private companies like the one he is working with.

He is parroting their talk now, very disappointing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Look at it this way:

We can unite if we focus on kids. For example, with this school funding issue we are all dealing with now - we need to focus on how budget cuts impact the kids. Everyone can agree that kids deserve a good education and we can tie the funding issue to what's best for kids. But if we bring up teacher pay, there is always going to be one whiner who believes teachers are overpaid or don't deserve a raise. Then there's a conflict and the message gets lost.

[madfloridian]

62. I disagree.

I don't think the new "reformers" are actually focusing on kids, but I do believe most teachers do.

I think their agenda for profit is getting in the way of their caring too much about kids.

Schools, the last frontier that is unprivatized.

It's happening now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. And I agree with you completely

As usual. :)

I guess my point was about how we should be framing this issue. Of course the reformers aren't focused on the kids. But we teachers are. And we need to make sure we communicate that.

[Catshrink]

72. And so often we assume our concern for children is implicit

in what we say and do we don't actually say the words. Then others see this as a glaring omission. It's all about learning to frame the debate and we're novices at that - and we're up against pros.

[mzteris]

75. I fully believe that you - most of you -

care about the kids. I just think you're a little - um - short-sighted and a wee-bit narrow-minded on the issue.

Don't for one second think that those of us who support alternative educational models don't care about kids.

[mzteris]

74. oh puhleeze -

Should we call you guys "SAINT TEACHERS"? Give me a break. Do you REALLY believe that only "you teachers" (charter school teachers need not apply, of course) - CARE ABOUT KIDS?

REALLY? :banghead:


:sigh:

[mzteris]

64. "We can unite if we focus on kids."

That's my motto, too! :)

You KNOW I believe in raising teacher pay significantly - and reducing classroom size.

[NJmaverick]

50. Doctor Dean is absolutely right

[MichiganVote]

76. Spoken like a politician...who does not "get" education.

[madfloridian]

78. Exactly right.

He does not have a clue now

[MichiganVote]

79. He never did have much of a platform for education n/t

[alstephenson]

80. What a reasonable response.