OK. Say teachers *compromise* on seniority .

[Smarmie Doofus]

Example: New hires no longer accrue seniority ( where it impacts salary scale )... effective immediately. Base pay is constant, changing only to reflect cost of living increases.... contractually negotiated or not..... and of course, merit pay.

The compromise is that teachers already in the system are unaffected by the above. This is only fair as senior teachers are already heavily vested financially and emotionally in the current system. ( Many have made major life decisions based on the existence of seniority rules and particularly on the fact that salary is scaled to length of service.)

The salary-scaled-to-seniority system is thus phased out gradually thru attrition . The old order retires or dies out. The new wave is enticed to teaching by the prospect of merit pay alone appended to base salary.

If nothing else... it will clear the air:

1. Promises made to veteran teachers over the years will have been honored.

2. School "reformers" will get half a loaf ( reduction of salary expenses by roughly half) and ... more importantly... a chance to prove that they can attract as stable and effective a teaching corps as we have in public ed today without resorting to longevity incentives.

At the very least, this could be a pilot program.

So: what's wrong ... if anything... with this picture?

[baldguy]

1. Sure way to destroy teacher morale

other than unfocused & arbitrary "competency" tests.

A school isn't a factory. The sooner that's realized by the public, local, state & federal govts, and MBA-trained administrators the better.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Schools are indeed not a factory, so why is their pay scale based on an factory model?

[tonysam]

12. They're not. They're based on a civil service model.

It's a step system based on years of service plus education.

You can't run it like a business model because of the politics inside school systems, which most people are not award of.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Not true

Been there and done both...they are not even close.

[baldguy]

19. wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States

[tonysam]

23. No. I am right.

It is NOT a "factory" model that is in the step system. It is based on the civil service pay scale.

Have you ever looked at a teacher's pay scale? It is based on education plus years of teaching experience.

It is similar to civil service pay scales. Take a look at the federal, for example. They have a step system, too.

I don't give a shit about your phony sources.

[baldguy]

28. Horace Mann did nothing, huh?

I supplied those links for your edification, not mine. The last real education reforms were in the 1830. The civil service spoils system was changed in the 1880s. Ever stop to realize that the patronage scandals after the Civil War forced the civil service system to be reorganized around the factory model, too? After all, it had "worked" for the education system a half-century earlier.

[maryf]

37. You are right, the merit pay idea is much more the factory model...

the step system works...

[tonysam]

38. It is. "Merit pay" is just what is often done in private business.

The "step system" is similar to civil service-type employment.

[maryf]

40. Yep, and keep your hands off my steps!!!

my tenure too, but being an Art teacher I feel insecure of late...

[baldguy]

16. 'Cause that's the way it was set up 180 yrs ago.

The American public school system was designed to churn out (mass produce) happy, compliant, well-behaved 19th century workers.

[Zoeisright]

2. Why do they have to compromise on ANYTHING?

Teaching is fricking tough job. They should ALL be paid more. I'm sick of this shit, where teachers are constantly shafted, while worthless CEOs who destroy companies, and drug-addicted pro football players get millions.

[Smarmie Doofus]

13. I'm pro teacher. I'm just trying to move the debate around a bit.

NT

[tonysam]

26. It's the hardest damned job out there.

It used to be a great job because teachers were once considered professionals, but now it's a hellhole.

[femmocrat]

3. Terrible idea. The turnover rate for new teachers is huge now.

So, offer them less pay, fewer benefits and incentives to stay in the combat zone. That will attract the "best and the brightest"!

[customerserviceguy]

8. Is there really a shortage of teachers?

A friend of mine has been substitute teaching for years, took a part time job at the YMCA until they eliminated her position. She hasn't been able to find teaching work for the current school year, and her unemployment is about to run out.

I have to imagine that there are many others in her situation.

[Smarmie Doofus]

11. I don't believe there is. I think there's a glut. And....

I think that fact is driving a lot of the 'roll-back-the teachers' unions' sentiment.

I'll defer to someone who's got solid stats to the contrary.

I mean real, solid, incontrovertible, honest, statistical evidence. Not junk data.

[tonysam]

21. There is a glut and has been for years.

The only serious shortage is in math currently.

Teacher shortage has given way to teacher glut

The school districts have peddled the garbage of a shortage in order to get too many people in this field and thus treat teachers like crap.

If they weren't a dime a dozen, teachers would treated much better.

[femmocrat]

14. In some areas and disciplines. I found this article in a quickie search:

http://www.online-distance-learning-education.com/article_info.php/articles_id/43

Anyone looking for a permanent job in a suburban district would find a glut of applicants. Most districts do need subs though, at least in our area. Most of our new hires do come from our sub list.

[tonysam]

25. Subs don't really count.

They are paid horrible pay and typically have no benefits.

[femmocrat]

27. Agree. I only meant that it could be path to a permanent position.

It's a crap shoot though. Many teachers sub for years without finding a job. Many others just give up.

[tonysam]

30. You're absolutely correct.

That's one of the many things that kills me about this profession. People who are related to school district personnel get hired right on the spot with no experience, but there are experienced teachers and substitutes who have subbed for as long as ten years and can't find work.

[Smarmie Doofus]

46. Fixing things like this should fall under "AUTHENTIC school reform."

>>>>>People who are related to school district personnel get hired right on the spot with no experience, but there are experienced teachers and substitutes who have subbed for as long as ten years and can't find work>>>>>>

Part of the problem with the with the debate as a whole is that the word "reform" has been seized and taken hostage. I see outrages ( like the above)large and small on a daily basis. None of them are of interest to the current crop of "reformers" and none of them are addressed by them. Most of the 'reform' movement's solutions would in fact *exacerbate* existing patterns of corruption, malfeasance, inefficiency. Authentic reformers are cast as upholders of the status quo.

'The world turned upside down'.

How to communicate this to an uncomprehending general public.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. So you feel seniority is indispensible?

That's my inclination also... but also my prejudice.

But the implication of the anti-seniority camp's prescription appears to be the opposite.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. One of the problems of seniority (vice experience) based salary levels is mobile families get screwe...

It not just a problem with your suggestion, but the existing situation as well. Its one of the reasons I think a defined contribution approach is superior for retirement.

[Posteritatis]

6. Sounds like a great way to eliminate new teachers. (nt)

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Well, among other things.....

I'm wondering if the school reformers are really going to be able to even staff schools... without seniority. It doesn't matter how bad the economy is or how large the teacher glut.

But they seem to think they can.

[tonysam]

15. Of course it ignores the obvious fact

there is a huge disparity in power between principals and teachers. Principals basically can do whatever the hell they want because nobody is watching them. Teachers have absolutely no power, and their unions are generally worthless.

Then, if these principals do get into trouble, school districts will lie, cheat, forge documents, bribe witnesses, and do everything else short of murder to keep these people on the payroll.

[tonysam]

20. Well, if enough people are canned and can never again teach,

which is what happens in an authoritarian system like public education, and that's fired teachers NEVER work again anywhere in the United States in teaching because of blacklisting and disclosure questions asked on licensure/school district applications, they won't be able to find anybody naive enough to go into this field.

Right now colleges and universities are churning out a couple of hundred thousand teachers a year, so they are a dime a dozen. They are a dime a dozen because students who go into this field are naive to believe public education is about educating the future generation and making a difference. It isn't about that at all, tragically. It's about nepotism, favoritism, the good-old-boy network, about keeping perks and privileges all for the administrators, from principals on up, and treating teachers like shit.

[Diane R]

10. Whats wrong is the crappy teachers currently teaching continue their free ride.

What is wrong with making sure ALL teachers currently teaching are really competent? That shouldn't threaten the many quality teachers.

[tonysam]

17. Who decides who is "crappy"? YOU?

You who does not have a clue about the dirty politics in public education?

Spare me.

[sandnsea]

24. So nobody gets to evaluate teachers??

I mean really, you think that's reasonable? There has to be some means of identifying teachers who need improvement in particular areas and making sure they get the tools to improve. It's just not rational to give a teacher a job with no accountability unless they violate the law, which is practically how it is in many districts. That's not right.

[JDPriestly]

34. How do you evaluate a teacher?

Looking at students' scores is not fair. My mother taught. One year she would get a good class in which case the scores would be high and she looked like a wonderful, amazing teacher. Next year or the next, she would get the problem class -and then the scores would go down.

Most teachers who stay with teaching very long do it because they are good at it.

That we have so many incompetent teachers is an urban myth.

But what we do have is absentee and incompetent parents -- lots of them.

You do not prepare children for school by putting them in front of a TV on Saturday morning. You do not prepare a child for school by putting a TV in the child's room. You do not prepare a child for school by hiring a babysitter or nanny who does not really speak English to care for the child during the first three years of life. You do not prepare a child for school by working all day and then leaving the child with a babysitter most evenings.

If you want your child to do well in school, you have to read to the child every night. You need regular family meals and regular bedtimes. You have to have places for your child to put things and remind the child of the importance of order and organization. Then you need to play counting games and memory games with your child and talk to and listen to your child.

Too many parents are working or involved in all kinds of activities. Children are not getting the positive experiences they need before starting school and during elementary school.

[tonysam]

35. As an aside, I have to laugh

Last August, in preparation for the 2009-2010 school year, the administrators at Washoe County School District had their annual inservice. There were many topics discussed among the big shots. One of them was sponsored by HR. The title of it was "Key Elements of Teacher Evaluation and Discipline."

Maybe WCSD has this little workshop every year for principals and other administrators, but I found it hilarious because no fewer than THREE of the presenters I personally regard as crooks, as criminals, with two of them in human resources and one of them an attorney. One of the presenters was a former executive director of the Washoe Education Association who I contend took a bribe in the form of a job working for the very person in human resources who spearheaded my dismissal and pressured my principal to fire me--without knowing ANYTHING regarding my absences or the fact she violated Nevada statutes and the union contract. This person was bribed so she could not be a witness for me at my rigged termination hearing (I was not allowed ANY witnesses to testify on my behalf). Then, when this HR crook found out I hadn't faked my illness and the principal didn't do one damned thing she was supposed to, he and the general counsel simply took it upon themselves to cover for her.

It would have been nice to have been a fly on the wall to know what was said during this presentation. I could sum it up as this: Principals, you are supposed to follow the union contract and NRS 391 to the letter, but just in case you don't, we will be here to help you if it means breaking the law to preserve your jobs.

[sandnsea]

44. I took my kids out of the Nevada school system because it SUCKS

The whole goddamn state. I have never seen such a bunch of stupid individuals in my entire life as what live in Nevada.

[tonysam]

50. I can't say I disagree with you, except I don't think I am that stupid.

Those school administrators are the dumbest bunch of fucks I ever had the misfortune of working under. Either that or they were corrupt beyond belief.

I still shake my head that I EVER tried so hard to work for WCSD. Six stinking years I tried to get hired there, only to be thrown out on bogus charges.

[sandnsea]

43. Blame the parents. Fuck that.

Kids have been watching Saturday morning cartoons and having foreign language parents for decades.

Nobody ever read to me. My father was illiterate because he had dyslexia, which wasn't diagnosed in the 30s. How is it his parents managed to educate 7 other kids, but not him? Bedtimes and meal times?

There are problems in the schools. I have seen teachers who threw desks across the room, personally, in my childrens' class. I have seen teachers who had so little control over the classroom that they sent notes home about dropped pencils. I have seen teachers who were so psychotic they handed out detention notices over forgotten pencils. Some schools have books, but don't believe in using them. Others have old books, but the teachers won't do a damn thing to bring any of the information up to date. I would say about half the teachers are quality teachers, half are pure shit, and maybe 10% are exceptional.

Regardless of any of that, everybody in the world has job evaluations. The idea that anybody is suggesting we just use test scores as the only means to evaluate teachers is a big fat lie. Nobody is even suggesting teachers salaries are solely based on classroom progress. Another big fat lie.

Teachers have been too arrogant for their own good. They need to get off their high horse and start listening to parents.

On edit: And that would be ALL parents, not just the parents who are teachers or are on the school board or bank board or whatever other political kiss-ass game they play. The teachers play the political game, and ignore 80% of the students whose parents have no political power.

[JDPriestly]

31. Problem is, crappy parents and kids continue their free ride.

If a child misbehaves in school, the parents should be called in to discuss the matter with the principal. And only after the parents understand that they have a problem, should the child be allowed back in classes. Until that time, the child should sit alone in detention and do his or her work there by him or herself.

Teachers would then be able to do their jobs and not police nasty kids all day. No. I am not a teacher. I was a parent. My children did well in school -- in inner city public schools. But then, I was their parent.

Sound conceited? Not at all. It was a question of my attitude and that of my husband. Our children knew that they had to do well in school and that behavior problems would be dealt with when they got home. That makes all the difference: engaged parents.

[tonysam]

33. Teachers can't control what goes on outside their classrooms

There are lots of variables going into students' success or failure in school, and the vast majority the teacher has no control over. Yet these idiot privatizers want to treat teachers like office workers. It's a completely different ball of wax.

[LWolf]

39. No teacher gets a free ride.

The mechanisms currently in force to ensure that teachers are qualified are numerous and many-layered.

In addition, there are more powerful ways to ensure that the teacher is competent in the areas of classroom management, structure, and student interactions.

They aren't "on the table" because they don't enrich any corporations or score any political points for anyone; they just improve the practice of all teachers.

We can't have that; we need scapegoats.

[maryf]

41. "they don't enrich any corporations"

but they sure are trying to get some profit in there...charter schools, tests etc..

[LWolf]

42. If by "they" you mean

politicians, you are right, of course.

My "they" referred to positive, supportive ways to improve the practice of all teachers. Those things you don't hear about, because they don't enrich the powermongers.

[maryf]

45. Yes!

and great post above, And I should have been more clear.

[sandnsea]

22. Why would anyone not accrue seniority?

That makes no sense on any level. The merit pay being proposed is more like merit bonuses. If over a set period of time, teachers meet program goals, bonuses are paid. There's no permanent raise involved in most of the programs. There still has to be a means of rewarding teachers for experience, continued ed, and whatever other duties they have taken on at their school.

[tonysam]

51. I think what the "merit pay" people REALLY want

is to replace the step system with a business like "merit system" instead of adding bonuses to teachers' salaries. Of course that would NEVER work in a politically charged, filthy workplace like school districts.

[JDPriestly]

29. The reason for tenure is not so much financial as protection of free speech.

Back before No Child Left Behind, teachers had a lot of authority to prepare their own curriculum. In universities and colleges, that is still the case. Tenure was brought in to insure that teacher could not be easily fired because of their ideas or speech.

In addition, tenure protects teachers -- who are public servants -- in the same way that the civil service protections help other public servants.

Another reason for tenure is to encourage experienced teachers to remain in a school district.

I think you will find that many fewer people train to be teachers if tenure is abolished for newer teachers. Teaching is a narrow field. I know a number of highly qualified, highly experienced teachers who wanted to change fields and, in spite of their good qualifications, were not welcomed by private business.

That's probably because teachers have to have special personalities that nurture. Nurturing is not a quality that is valued in business -- unfortunately.

Teacher tenure is a good thing. People who don't usually just don't understand it and don't know teachers.

If we want to improve our schools, we need to improve our society starting with families. That's where the damage is done to our children -- not in the classroom.

[tonysam]

32. Most important, it protects school districts from even more lawsuits

It sounds strange to say this, but "tenure" really does protect school districts because although once a teacher is targeted for termination, as yours truly knows too well, it's almost impossible for a teacher to keep his or her job, it DOES put a brake on the worst impulses of principals to fire teachers willy-nilly and for stupid reasons.

In the old days, pre-NCLB, it was unusual for teachers to be fired not because it was difficult, but because principals then understood children needed a stable learning environment and staff morale was too important to undermine it by targeting and firing teachers. It would still happen on occasion, but it wasn't anywhere near as common as it is now.

[Smarmie Doofus]

47. This is my operating assumption as well:

>>>>I think you will find that many fewer people train to be teachers if tenure is abolished for newer teachers. >>>>>

It seems pretty friggin' obvious. But it is not shared by all.

Partly, I'm playing devil's advocate. Partly, I'm saying ..."ok, let's try it your way."

The assumption of the "reformers" seems to be that getting rid of tenure and seniority is going to prompt young "sun-burned eager beavers" to come crawling out of the woodwork to rescue public education. ( At a HUGE savings to the taxpayer, BTW.) I'm saying "let's subject that to some reality testing"... perhaps in the form of a one-state pilot program. (No, not Nevada !!)

Again: I'm proposing a one-state *phase-out*. Not abolishing tenure and seniority for those already teaching.

[tonysam]

52. Definitely NOT Nevada--PLEASE.

:)

[maryf]

36. merit pay???

How do you compare one classroom, group of kids, too another? How do you pay merit pay to Art teachers? Other classes not tested? Principals know the kids, they could arrange to have "pet" teachers have the best kids. Schools are not assembly lines...

[Smarmie Doofus]

48. All of which is true. However.....

... it seems clear that under the current regime ... RTTT, yada yada yada... merit pay is going to kick in in one way shape or form in at least some states.

It seems wise to... for the sake of THIS argument, anyway... to separate the question of cash-bonuses for high test scores ( God , do these people have any idea of what's inside that can of worms they're about to open? Probably not; but they don't seem to care either.) from the larger question of pay-scaled-to-seniority.

[maryf]

49. pay-scaled- to seniority

is actually a form of righteous merit pay, pay for experience...the other is ludicrous for all the reasons discussed...

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. As soon as cops and firefighters are placed on a merit pay system I will think about it

We are all public servants. That's why merit pay is a dumb idea.

[maryf]

54. Yes!! thanks!!nt