B+ B- grading system in high schools and final grade point percentage.

[eagertolearn]

I have a question. La Grande High School in Oregon switched to a plus minus grading system last year and my daughter and another A student fought it because in order to get a straight A you have to have 93% now. They have both taken the 4 AP classes and knew how difficult it was to keep an A but by their senior year they still had A's and both are very involved in student council, sports, community service (so well rounded). My daughter has a very intense personality and at first her goal wasn't to be valedictorian but just do her best (we kind of wished she would have gotten a B earlier to take the thought out of here mind). There were many late nights last year (or early mornings actually) where she was so exhausted she was crying trying to do it all. So this year(her senior year) she took a college english class and honors chemistry and worked hard to get that 93% but ended up with a 91.5% in a easier required class (modern problems). So she now has an A- and is devistated because that took away her chance to be valedictorian (after straight A's since 6th grade). She had a hard week at the end of Nov. because verizon somehow dropped our internet service so in order to do her research for her final english paper she had to go to the library which was closed byt the time she had the time to do it. It was a bad week so when she fianlly finished that paper (she had to also get a 93% in her college english class to keep her high school grade point average and the teacher was very hard) she studied for her modern problems test until 2am. She didn't do well on one test and that was it for her grade point average because there is not much lead way when you have to get 93% for that A. How many schools actually grade this way? Another parent called many high schools in Oregon and they said they do the Plus Minus system for the report card but still do A=90%, B=80% etc. When this parent brought this up to the board this fall they didn't even respond to that. This grading system is supposed to help pass more kids who are failing (I guess that was our school focus)but it is so hard on those like my daughter who are so driven. The other beef I have is that she got a 97.5% in her honors chemistry class and they don't give A+ with this grading system. I feel that if she got an A- that is what she got so I will not fight it (other parents do that and get it changed but I leave that up to my kids). If most of the other schools do the percentage 90%=A, 80%=B then how can our students compete equally for scholarships and college acceptance? My daughter is going to U of O next year because that is where she really wanted to go so her grades are fine for that and she will get no scholarships because of our income. We are very happy with her grades and our requirment has been that our kids do their best. But i can totally understand why she is so upset after seeing how hard she worked over the years. Our school doaesn't even hand out extra points for Honors classes. Thre are not a lot of high achievers here but still to change a system that hurts them and not care????Thanks for listening.

[dsc]

1. my school's scale is a 7 point scale

A 100-93, B 92-85, C 84-77, D 76-70, F below 70.

[Recursion]

2. I had a 7-point + - scale in high school

I'm sorry that it's biting your daughter in this case, but IMO anything that curbs grade inflation is a good thing.

[frazzled]

3. Chill on the grade thing

It honestly doesn't matter in the end whether you got a A or an A+, or even an A- or a B+. Colleges don't really care (honest), and five years from now--no, one or two years from now--you won't even remember or care about any of this.

Explain to your daughter that her own assessment of what she has learned and what she has achieved is as important as any quantitative grade. She sounds like a wonderful girl and a marvelous student. But the grades really shouldn't be taken so seriously. Life isn't always fair. You just have to stop worrying about how others see you and be your own best judge in life, keeping your own dignity and standards in an imperfect world.

[eagertolearn]

5. We have explained this but actually the being a valedictorian

meant a lot to her. I agree with the comment above about it is good to prevent grade inflation too. We wanted her to apply to some private colleges (we thought with her personality she would do better in one) but once she got that bad grade on her test and also didn't get into the honors college at U of O she is kind of talking about giving up. I think she feels all the years of hard work for nothing. She is well rounded and very involved and we've taught her to be independent (fight her own fights). She will be a stronger person for learning how to handle this but still I feel for her.

[frazzled]

10. She should definitely not give up

I'll tell you a story about my son, who was a real striver, like your daughter. Well, he just got some "smart" genes from somewhere (we can't quite figure out where). After a distinguished high school career as one of the top students at his very competitive public high school (thank goodness they banned class rankings at this school, so there was never a question that minor differences in GPA would decide who would be class valedictorian), near-perfect score on the SATs, many honors in state, national, and even international competitions in math, computer science, and chemistry, and becoming a National Merit Scholar (top 0.5% in nation) ... he was not accepted at 4 of the 6 schools he applied to. Even those that had solicited him vigorously and personally. It was weird, and also both annoying and depressing. But you know what? He really didn't care, or at least pretended not to: the school he chose turned out to be the perfect match for him in the end. It all didn't matter afterward. He grew enormously as both a person and a scholar, and is now continuing his academic career as a PhD student in pure mathematics. He met a wonderful young woman and they're getting married this summer, and they're fun and smart ... and, well, you know what--that 780 on the verbal portion of the SAT rather than the 800 or that college essay that was just a little bit too nerdy didn't matter a bit in the end.

Not getting into the honors program for your daughter was a fluke: it's all a crap shoot. They have thus-and-such-many slots, and there are many kids who qualify. Why some get chosen over others is a mystery. It's not because she didn't do perfectly on a particular test (it wasn't a "bad grade"!). She will thrive at her chosen school and in her chosen field, and high-school will be left behind like a pair of old socks by the end of the first semester. She will succeed because she's bright and energetic. She'll meet friends and fall in love, and find interests neither you nor she ever imagined she'd have. Don't let her think just because the system is rigged that she can't have the brightest possible future imaginable.

As a former perfectionist myself at that age, I can tell you that it's just not worth trying to be perfect. It just prevents you from trying things and keeping going.

[rockymountaindem]

4. A few thoughts from a (relatively) recent HS graduate

Class of 2003 here:

My high school didn't use the plus and minus system in grades and did have weighted grades for students who took AP, Honors or other advanced classes. As a result, they thought it would be fair to have a regular valedictorian and another one for those who enrolled in a lot of weighted classes. Otherwise those who took regular classes would never have a shot at being valedictorian. I am pretty competitive by nature and always try to do my best, but there was never any question that I would be valedictorian because I am not really good enough at math to be sure I'd get an A in every one of my higher level math classes. I got a couple of B's in there, and my GPA was further undermined by an extra study hall I took in freshman year which was obviously not a weighted grade like the rest of my classes (except art and PE, which were not weighted for anybody). So ultimately I think I finished seventh out of 351 students. I was close friends with everyone who finished higher than I did and the kid who was the weighted grades valedictorian was a very smart guy and I was happy for him.

So for your daughter I would give the same advice I once received from a guidance councilor: there are 150,000 high schools in the USA. That means there are 150,000 valedictorians every year. Not all of them become top people in their field, or even do all that well in life by the usual standards. So, the best thing to do is not focus on that because it is essentially meaningless. I could understand the frustration if your daughter was trying to get into a really competitive college where every fraction of a point might set her apart from some other applicant from the other side of the country she would never see or be able to measure herself against like I was able to do with the six people who did better GPA-wise than I did. It helped to know that the people who beat me are just better at math than I am. I don't plan on ever doing anything that math-intensive with my life so I never really let that bother me. In addition, lots of colleges use the plus/minus grading system so it's something she will probably have to deal with in the future, either at U of O or if she goes to grad school. I know what it's like to set your own goals and feel driven to succeed, and I know how hard people work in high school these days if they really want to do well. But, sometimes circumstances are such that you can't be the absolute best, no matter how hard you try. I always tried to get A's in my math classes, but a couple of B+ marks were all it took to make it impossible for me to catch the math-whiz people. I accepted that early on, and it never bothered me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that these little distinctions don't matter as long as your daughter has the confidence that she can do well in the things that matter most to her. A few years from now the valedictorian thing will seem completely irrelevant - trust me.

[enlightenment]

6. I'm sorry she was disappointed, but she's probably

better off learning the lesson now. Most colleges and uni's use a plus/minus grading system - so that's probably what she will be facing next year.

I don't think all high schools use a five-level system; my son graduated in 1998 and his school used a seven-level system (as did my high school, back in the dark ages).

[peace13]

7. Please , please , please take a lot of time to talk with your daughter before she goes off to school

Our Valedictorian went off to Princeton and was home before the end of the first term! He could not adjust to not getting A's and the pressure of it all. He said that the professors at Princeton were idiots. Please do not let your daughter go off without a firm understanding that college is a whole new world and she will do fine but she will need to give herself time. I suggest that you encourage her to take a course in yoga, if she does not already practice. These young people who live under such pressure are vulnerable to lots of bad stuff when we send them off to school.

Best wishes to your daughter. I admire her work ethic and determination. Good on you to be so supportive!

[eagertolearn]

13. I agree. My other daughter who is in her first year at college and

didn't apply herself in high school because she picks up the info so easily. She graduated with a 3.4 (and that was after she convinced several teachers to give her a grade higher over the years!) but she ended up getting the the top award for the business department and social studies department and one of the 10 seniors the principle awarded for helping to make the school a better place. Now she is thriving in college and is dealing with friends who got straight A's a private HS's who are wondering why they are struggling in college! I always wished I could combine my two girls personalities to get the perfectly balanced kid!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. Colleges weight H.S. GPA to normalize applicants.

If most of the other schools do the percentage 90%=A, 80%=B then how can our students compete equally for scholarships and college acceptance?

For example, consider a high school that has a simple A/B/C/D/F (90%/80%/70%/60%/<59%, respectively) and another high school with 93%/85%/77%/70%/<69% grading scales. If a student from each school had a 3.85, clearly the student from the latter school has achieved more. Each high school should have a registered scale and colleges will take this into account. Colleges know that a student with a 3.95 on a "plus-minus" scale is, for all intensive purposes, equal to a 4.0 student from another high school with a standard "10% gradient" scale. In fact some high schools in my area have 7.0 point grading scale! The theory being that a larger grading scale can be more graduated to separate individual student performance. However, in the end even their behemoth 7.0 scale is normalized to compare to the national pool of high schools. ;)

It's not a big deal once you start talking about colleges. The only thing it will affect is intra-scholastic comparison between her peers. So instead of a school having 10 valedictorians there is only one or two. When my sister went to HS there were like 14 veledictorians all with perfect GPAs and the same honors courses. My high school (a different one) was on a plus-minus system and had two GPA awarding scales for standard and honors/AP classes. We only ended with one valedictorian and I feel that's how it should be. Below was my HS grading scale. I was a 3.85gpa student in HS and took no honors or AP courses so when a college sees that GPA at my school they could infer that I was a solid "A" student. More important than "GPA" is class rank and SAT/ACT scores.

Grade | Score | Reg. GPA Credit | Honors/AP GPA Credit
A+ | 99&up | 4.33 | 4.83
A | 95-98 | 4.00 | 4.50
A- | 93-94 | 3.67 | 4.17
B+ | 90-92 | 3.33 | 3.83
B | 87-89 | 3.00 | 3.50
B- | 85-86 | 2.67 | 3.17
C+ | 81-84 | 2.33 | 2.71
C | 77-80 | 2.00 | 2.25
C- | 74-76 | 1.67 | 1.67
D+ | 72-73 | 1.33 | 1.33
D | 70-71 | 1.00 | 1.00
D- | 68-69 | 0.67 | 0.67
F | 00-67 | 0.00 | 0.00

[eagertolearn]

12. Wow that was pretty strict though she would have ended up scoring high

because of the AP classes and honors classes she has taken. At our school they don't give anything extra for this. Thanks for showing your scale. It seems kind of odd that shcools all have different ways of grading.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. Yeah, honors classes boosted alot of scores.

So if you wanted to be valedictorian or in the top 10 students or so... you HAD to take tough courses.
I was the exception. I finished top 10, but did not load up on honors courses. Pretty much just got straight A & A-
I was more into varsity baseball & football & parties - those AP classes looked like alot of stress.
An A+ in a regualar (very easy) class is easier to get and worth more than the likely A- or B+ in honors classes. :dunce:

Our school was pretty tough though because it one of "them catholic schools". LOL
Our valedictorian, taking ALL honors/AP, still only got something like a 4.3gpa
I think only like 6-7 people out of ~180 broke a 4.0 average.

[Fresh_Start]

9. Our school uses + -

Our children need a 93 to get an A and they need to get 100 to get an A+
We are one of the top 10 schools in our state.
College admissions know our school and understand the grading system.

It's how I was graded way back when.
Don't see any issue with it.

[eagertolearn]

16. In my days (1970's) they didn't have AP classes. I wish at least

they would acknowledge those with a higher score or a few extra points because they are a heck of a lot harder then regular classes and she took two last year while playing sports, being a class officer, being a lawyer for team court, competing in mock trail very involved with FBLA and many more activities (when you live in a small town you can do more because everything is within a mile or two).

[eagertolearn]

17. Back in my days we didn't have AP classes so her A's in her 4 AP classes and her honors class are

treated the same as as all other A's so there is no reason to really push yourself and take those classes other than they prepare her more for college. She should of just had more fun, continued with basketball and enjoyed life a little more in high school (but that is not her personality).

[sinkingfeeling]

11. Exactly the way it was when I attended high school. You had to have a 93 to get an A and I

never heard about 'grading on a curve' until college. I ended up with a 4 year average of 3.98 and was valedictorian of my class.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

15. "grading on a curve" = gift from the gods

"Grading on std. deviation" = curse.

All our high school honors courses were graded based on standard deviation - biggest crock of shit ever.
The single largest factor I never took honors/AP in high school.

Although we did have one teacher in college plot everyones courses on the blackboard, and just cirle clusters of names arbitrarily then assign a grade to that cluster. The clusters were gerrymandered too... LOL. If he liked you you got bumped up, otherwise you were stuck with the rest of your cluster. I guess that's kind of like std. dev. grading with a political twist. Me and a buddy got a "B" with about 70% :rofl:

[AwakeAtLast]

18. In the high school in my district an A is 94%

Failing is 70%. In the high school from which I graduated, 70% was still a C.

Grades are so subjective. :shrug:

[LWolf]

19. What, exactly, is your question?

+ - systems are common. I missed a 4.0 when I got my BA because of one A-.

In reality, even though I use a percentage system for A-F grades like everyone else in my district, I don't like it. I've used better systems.

My school is in the process of transferring to a "proficiency based grading system." That means that (some) standards will be listed on the report card for each subject, and each standard will get a grade; something similar to scores for state benchmarks: "NM, M, E." I'm not really thrilled with that, either.

Except for 10th -12th grades, who need GPAs for college applications. The debate about how to fold letter grades and GPAs into the new "proficiency based" report cards is ongoing.

[eagertolearn]

20. One of my questions was if schools that use a + - system for the report cards

why do they not have A+ and it seems in Oregon many of the schools another parent called use the + - system for the report cards but still use the A=4.0, B= 3.0 C=2.0. Its just hard changing it her senior year. I wish she would have had this system earlier (we hoped she would get a B in 10th grade) then maybe she would of had more fun, stuck with other activities like basketball.

[noamnety]

21. Intrinsic vs extrinsic value

Sounds like your daughter has learned over the years to be motivated to learn by extrinsic factors. That's unfortunate. She would be better served long term if she switched to putting the value on the education itself rather than the reward system for it.

I don't know whether it's too late to shift her motivation or not. Maybe that's a lesson you have to learn when you are younger. What I'd encourage you to do at this point is not let her see you get caught up in the drama of a couple tenths of a point, because that will reinforce to her that that's what education is for.

Think about what your (big) values are, what you want her values to be. The best thing for her is probably for you to demonstrate keeping it in perspective, acknowledging that it's a disappointment, but you're still glad she took the more challenging courses because what she got from them is more important than a 4.0. And emphasize to her that she is incredibly lucky to be in the position she's in, it sounds like she really has everything going for her and every advantage in life that a parent could hope to have given their kids.