I'm Interested In Your Opinion

[Dinger]

On this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3930043&mesg_id=3930043

I have my thoughts, but I'll wait a while to post them. You can probably get the idea from my replies in this thread.

[ananda]

1. Most definitely..

.. pressure needs to be applied wherever needed
and in whatever way to stop and prevent bullying.

[Believing Is Art]

2. Eh, not enough info in the link to form an opinion

Does he have a family history of behavioral or mental disorders? Did his family have any choice in his schooling? What abuse was there that is not in the article? What was the nature of the complaints to the staff? Too much wasn't covered for me to form an opinion.

[bluestateguy]

3. If the school systematically ignores repeated bullying they should pay

I do think there should have to be a certain threshold of egregiousness demonstrated by the aggrieved party, but if a school just does nothing to stop bullying, for years and years, in the face of obvious evidence, and it can be shown that harm was done to a student(s), then yes the school should pay and people should be fired.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. OP is correct in saying that:

>>>I do not believe that bullying, which seems to come naturally to children (and child-like adults), can exist within an institution without the at least tacit, and often overt, support of that institution.>>>>

Bullying is both natural and modifiable... like all sorts of other undesirable behavior. The school failed to act responsibly ( modifying the behavior... and I'll wager.... probably not even acknowledging it) so compensation is in order.

That said, I'm not wild about the idea of the taxpayers footing the bill. Seems unfair that the adults who dropped the ball ( teachers and admins... I say this as a teacher) , including the parents of the little monsters, enjoy legal immunity.

[Believing Is Art]

5. Good point

Assuming he deserved the money (which I can't tell from the article but also can't rule out), who wins? The taxpayers lose, and this guy still has to live with these problems. The judgment really doesn't do anything to deter the same thing from happening all over again. Not to say I disagree with the decision (I don't know what I think of it), but there has to be a better solution than a lawsuit.

[LWolf]

6. You make a good point,

although I don't agree that bullying cannot exist without tacit support.

In a small environment, ok. In large factory schools, where students outnumber adults by a huge margin and there are simply too many students to be able to build productive working relationships, bullying can, and does, occur without support.

Even in smaller schools like mine, we are hobbled in our ability to deal with bullying. We can recognize it. We can apply some consequences, sign the bully up for regular sessions with our counselor. If that doesn't change things, we've run out of options. We don't get to expel people for chronic, low-level bullying. We don't have the staff to provide every bully with a personal guard.

On the last day of school this year, I stepped in when I saw a chronic bully target one of my students. Not physically; verbally. Not for the first time. They were 8th graders; it was the last day with us. They're bound for high school. I moved over to them, but the "victim" looked at me and said, "Don't. It doesn't matter. It's over, and I don't have to deal with him any more after today. He's off to the alternative high school, where he'll experience plenty of people just like him."

[Catshrink]

7. My little nephew was bullied two years ago

His parents reported and documented it again and again. The bully moved away during the school year and things calmed down. Then, last year at the start of the school year, the bully returned. He told my nephew he was going to get him and his little brother. Again, his parents documented and reported but the harrassment continued. They asked that they be put in different classrooms -- nothing. Finally they had enough and put the kid in a Catholic grade school. This put a huge financial strain on the family, but it was the right thing to do.

The result: my nephew is now a completely different person. He is relaxed and no longer defensive all the time. He is excelling in school now that he can focus on academics and not some kid threatening to kick his ass all the time.

Maybe it boils down to kids needing limits and boundaries on their behavior. Most kids learn this at home but a few don't. Or kids are just imitating behavior they see at home.

As a teacher I know how stressed and taxed schools are. As an auntie I've seen close up the effects that even low-level bullying can have on a child. In my classroom, I've seen what happens as the bullied child has had enough -- fortunately it was a verbal eruption and the episode led to the bully eventually being placed in an alternative program.

I don't like spending my time and classroom time dealing with this stuff -- I have lessons to teach, grading, planning, meetings, etc. to do during the day. These behavior problems are just one more thing. Most parents are supportive but there are always those few...

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. Granted: it's a stretch to say "cannot exist" , but in this case....

>>>>>Repeated complaints to staff were ignored, he said.>>>>>> according to the article. Sounds familiar and credible to me. We also have to assume that the judge had her head on straight, so to speak. Certainly seemed to consider the case carefully: 112 page decision.










>>>>> steel ruler and being called "sterile", "faggot", "pedophile" and "Nazi".>>>>>

Interesting that three of the four epithets are sexual in nature. Do the tormentors have any idea what they are talking about? Probably not. Does the school's curriculum make any attempt to demystify these topics? Probably not.

Isn't that a kind of "tacit support"?

[LWolf]

10. No, it's not "tacit support."

In the classroom, we have mandated material to cover. It varies from state to state, and district to district, but in some places spending ANY instructional time on something that cannot be directly related to the standard you are supposed to be teaching can cause teachers to be "written up." This is the bi-partisan "standards and accountability" movement that brought us NCLB and other high-stakes testing programs at the state level. The movement that Democrats as well as Republicans keep voting to support.

Before I moved 4 years ago, I worked in a district that mandated what was allowed to be on the walls in the room, when each standard was to be taught, for how long, with what materials; a district that evaluated teachers by observing how closely they stuck to the "script" an adopted scripted curriculum gave them.

Does the school's curriculum make any effort to demystify bigotry or bullying? Sometimes. My district has counselors who spend one period a week with each class, using an adopted curriculum that is supposed to address those sorts of things. At least, we did until the current round of budget cuts, which cut enough counselors to ensure that they won't be meeting regularly with everyone on campus.

Not that one period a week is going to overcome the home culture and conditioning. It's not. It makes some enemies, of course. No family wants school teaching their kids something counter to the family "values," whether those "values" are constructive or destructive.

Repeated complaints to staff ignored? This can be attributed to a number of things; I don't know which factors may have contributed in this particular case:

1. Staff that has been there long enough to know that know matter how they try to address it, it doesn't end. Apathy.

2. Staff that didn't ignore it; that addressed it in some way that didn't work. When a teacher or an admin is dealing with a student transgression, it isn't done publicly. The victim, or anyone else on campus, isn't part of that process unless asked for testimony. Verdicts and consequences are not public.

2b This can result in anger from some. The "Why am I getting in trouble when nothing happened to ___________" syndrome. They really don't care that someone else's trouble is none of their business, ethically or legally. Adolescent transgressors will almost always try to blame their behavior on someone else, or to transfer responsibility in some way. Not unlike the dysfunctional American culture that they are growing up in.

3. The resources available to address this problem are inadequate, overloaded, or non-existing.

It amazes me how many things public education is blamed for. The bottom line is that, according to some, WE are failing to raise America's kids right; parents are not accountable.

WE are supposed to feed them, supply them, sometimes clothe them, teach them respect and responsibility, provide mental health services, academics, social skills, honesty, and a work ethic.

While we are understaffed, under-supplied, underpaid, and over-crowded. In a systemic structure that is counter-productive.

And when we fail to achieve all of the above, we "tacitly support" the dysfunction.

Reality? Ask any teacher how to restructure and fund the system so that bullies can't run rampant; they will eagerly offer up constructive ways to do so.

[Smarmie Doofus]

11. You cover a lot of ground. First:

>>>>>In the classroom, we have mandated material to cover. It varies from state to state, and district to district, but in some places spending ANY instructional time on something that cannot be directly related to the standard you are supposed to be teaching can cause teachers to be "written up." This is the bi-partisan "standards and accountability" movement that brought us NCLB and other high-stakes testing programs at the state level. The movement that Democrats as well as Republicans keep voting to support.

Before I moved 4 years ago, I worked in a district that mandated what was allowed to be on the walls in the room, when each standard was to be taught, for how long, with what materials; a district that evaluated teachers by observing how closely they stuck to the "script" an adopted scripted curriculum gave them.>>>>>>>>

This is why god invented teachers' unions. Every system is different and every union contract is different. We are subject to the same "standards" in my state and in my district. At the same time, our contract explicitly limits the right of admins to micromanage the classroom in the ways you describe. I smell contradiction: they try to do it ( possibly successfully) in other schools in my district. They make noises about it where I am. I recently was elected union delegate. ( No opposition; just like Stalin!). Just prior to that I approached an admin with a memo she had written with a long list of specifications about how bulletin boards should look ( What *IS* this thing they have about bulletin boards, anyway?) I pointed to the section of the contract that specifically states that bulletin board format is to be left to the teacher to determine. She hemmed and hawed and the matter was dropped quietly. The school was being audited the next day so I put up the friggin' bulletin board the way they wanted it. We'll see what they come up with next year. If they don't change the memo, I'll grieve it.

Point: While most teachers do not have a strong union, and some have none at all, all school admins are running around like frightened bunnies trying to avoid provoking their superiors. My impression is ( and it's only an impression) that most public school union contracts limit the scope and degree of administrative oversight ( no matter what NCLB says); yet the provisions of the contract are somehow not enforced.

Point 2: Blaming fear of deviating from a mandated curriculum for the unwillingness of school systems or their personnel to teach about traditionally taboo subjects, for example, homosexuality, runs contrary to my experience and, frankly, contrary to common sense, imo. Since these taboo topics are very often ( almost always, in fact) involved in the kind of harassment and bullying described in the OP, it's important to be honest before we start to pretend. Kids were bullied and tormented regularly for being different, for being gay, for being *perceived* to be gay, for being nerdy, for being weak... all of these things... long before NCLB was a gleam in the eye of the Bush cabal. Even NYC... supposed bastion of liberalism... tried and failed spectacularly in the late 1980s to bring these issues into the classroom where they could be discussed and examined scientifically and dispassionately.
When I say " NYC" I mean certain visionaries in the system... not the system or the Board itself. In fact the Board killed it. In any case its failure had nothing to do with standards and mandates it had to do with willful stupidity, cowardice and obstinacy. These human foiibles preceded... and will outlive.... NCLB.

Did other systems educate their students on these topics before NCLB? If they did, it's news to me.

As I said, you covered a lot of ground; more tomorrow, if I can hold up.

[LWolf]

13. Your points:

1. About the union? Point well taken. The union in the district I left behind WAS notoriously weak, rolling over every time some new mandate came down the pipe. Your comments about unions point out, too the effectiveness of anti-school, anti-union, and particularly, anti-teachers' union propaganda. Union or no, I believe the tendency to micromanage is reflecting the current top-down, authoritarian push, through legislation and funding, from the top. When a couple of schools in a district don't make AYP for a few years, and the "improvement plans" come in, that's when you see the obsession with micromanagement, right down to what is on the walls in the classroom. When an admin will write a teacher up if he steps into the room and asks a student which standard they are currently working on, and the student can't recite the standard, it's all about demonstrating that the school is complying with demands from those overseeing the "improvement." The district will comply with anything to avoid "restructuring."

Point 2: When a teacher's performance evaluation is based specifically on compliance to teaching standards, and that mandate is heavily enforced, you aren't going to see teachers stepping outside the box very often. In the district I mentioned previously, my last observation and evaluation was done specifically on how well I read a scripted curriculum to my class. Not on how much they understood; I was commanded ahead of time not to vary from the script to clarify anything. When I asked what reading a script had to do with any of the California standards for teaching, which is what I was SUPPOSED to be evaluated on, my admin shrugged helplessly.

In a self-contained classroom, there is an expectation that social skills will be taught. There's flexibility for such things. In a departmentalized system, at least where I have taught, social skills are NOT part of the curriculum, with the exception of social studies.

I don't disagree with you on principal. I just know, after 25 years in public education across 2 states and districts, that the reality is this: lack of support for the kinds of topics you are suggesting keeps the doors closed. It's lack of support for anything else, not "tacit support" for bullying.

[Smarmie Doofus]

15. Well.... it's tacit support for *something*.

>>>>I don't disagree with you on principal. I just know, after 25 years in public education across 2 states and districts, that the reality is this: lack of support for the kinds of topics you are suggesting keeps the doors closed. It's lack of support for anything else, not "tacit support" for bullying.>>>>

I know from first hand experience that *some* bullying , esp. of gay kids, esp of gay kids whose overt behavior is well outside the prescribed gender norms, has the tacit approval of some teachers and other adults who believe, for whatever reason, that the sexual orientation is wrong and/or the gender nonconformity is wrong. And further believe ( inaccurately, all available science tells us) that both are within the ability of the youngster to control ( i.e. change). I know this because these people have made this argument to me. These pedagogues further believe that these kids can be bullied by their peers into conformity... and that this is actually a beneficial prospect for the victim.

Extreme cases? Maybe. But the underlying mentality is not at all rare. Yes, many communities resist education on this particular topic. Many communities resist education on evolution. Do we simply throw up our hands? That's tantamount to telling the victim in the OP "tough, kid; that's life." I won't do it. I'm glad the judge he had didn't do it either.

[LWolf]

16. You are correct in part.

As long as homophobia, or any kind of bigotry, exists, there will be teachers who are part of that mindset, because teachers are people, and come from the general population. There will always be some teachers with whatever dysfunctions exist in the general population.

I believe that the percentage of narrow-minded teachers is lower than in the general population, due to education levels, and to the type of person drawn to public education as a career. Still, they exist.

The bigger issue is your question: "Do we simply throw up our hands?" I believe THAT is chronic. Fear of law-suits, fear of job-loss; public education k-12, of the minor population, does not offer up enough challenge of parental control of information.

Build in some safety features, and I believe that will change. All of the anti-intellectual, anti-public education, anti-teacher, and anti-teachers' union propaganda doesn't help the cause.

[MichiganVote]

8. Well bullying should be addressed but it beats me how a 1/2 million dollars

will correct the problem for the kid on the peer to peer level. And that is what really counts for the kid and for the others in the school.

Children are uncivilized and they need our guidance in or out of school. Guess I's like to know if the measure of help the kids got in school was equal to what he got from his home as well.

[goddess40]

12. it will get the adults attention

The electorate will demand that the school board do something or be voted out.

Money makes it a "real" issue for those that dismiss bullying as kids being kids. I've seen it time and time again, if a kid gets bullied very little is done to the perpetrator but if that same little shit causes damage all hell rains down on him.
Bully a classmate and your likely to be told to play nice, carve your initials in a desk and face suspension.

[MichiganVote]

14. I doubt the bit about the school board. Somebody gets a write up or a

principal gets suspended or fired. That's about it. But for the record I have been a part of anti-bullying programming and that doesn't always solve the problem either. There are some very, very messed up kids coming to the schools each day and not all of the interventions that school personnel employ work. If a kid does not respond to social interventions such as anti-bullying programs or vandalizes the equipment for learning (i.e. desks or other things) they should be suspended. Either one disrupts the learning environment.

[musical_soul]

17. Yeah.

If the school is unwilling to stop bullying, then they should be held accountable for any damages.