New tatic may trump free speech on signs with fetus photos

[Omaha Steve]

This tactic will be discussed at an national reproductive rights gathering starting Friday.

More on this as it develops over the next couple weeks.

[MNDemNY]

1. Do we really want to "trump free speach"?

What is this?

[Omaha Steve]

2. Can't say till after next weekend

Yes I do. If you can't show porno in public, why do we have to see the disgusting photos? Same thing. We live down the street from the clinic here. They use a 20 foot truck with huge photos covering the side.

[Lifetimedem]

33. Be careful

The next speech silenced could be yours .

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. This sounds intriguing

I could see where one could say the fetus photos are not accurate as to how the fetuses actually look at the time of an abortion--my guess is that the photos used are of fetuses that are in the third trimester rather than the first. If so, they are inaccurate in portraying what the organism actually looks like. When I was a kid, I visited the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, and they showed fetal development from conception on. And those early examples didn't look like anything human.

[rebecca_herman]

4. Source of pictures

I heard somewhere they photos they use tend to be late term fetuses aborted for severe birth defects or stillborn of natural causes. I can't remember where I read that though.

[Sadie4629]

5. Regardless of what it 'looks like'

It's still human. Just sayin'.

Also, since abortion is legal in the third trimester, (actually, up to the final push,) I don't think you can say the photos are inaccurate.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. technically, perhaps,

but to say that a zygote has consciousness in the way a fully developed human being does, or that it even has a soul--well, I think you would find many who would debate this issue. Even in the Christian tradition, in medieval times, it was believed that the soul did not enter the body until the 'quickening' time.

I believe third trimester abortions are rare, and are done when there is something really wrong--such as a fetus that has died or is near death in the womb. What percentage of abortions are performed in the first trimester vs the third? But what photos are shown?

[BlueFireAnt]

7. The question of whether it even has a soul could easily be applied

to the people who are so hell bent on making it so easy to abort what you don't want to raise. If it is human, which is up for debate, then it would take a soulless individual to kill it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. There are consequences to any action taken

I've known women who used abortion as family planning. And I've known women who had to have an abortion because otherwise they would have died. In every case, the effect of their decision effected them. But I feel it is not my place to judge that person's decision--simply to give them the right to make the decision rather than having the government force them to decide one way or another (I am opposed to forced abortions like they have done in China, just as I am opposed to forcing a woman to have a child as they do in Ireland).

[BlueFireAnt]

10. Should it be your friend's right to carry the family planning further?

Could she "abort" her child if she sees she can't care for him at 6 months old? Either way she's killing a baby she can't take care of.


I don't think someone should keep a baby that they can't take care of or even don't want, but there are too many people out there that want children and can't have them. My niece was adopted at 45 minutes old, so I am kinda biased on this issue.

[musette_sf]

11. i do not think any woman owes anyone

the use of her uterus because "there are too many people out there that want children and can't have them".

too bad.

firstly, there are many children available for adoption... if "perfect healthy white infant" is not a criterion.

secondly, what did people do in the old days when they could not have children? some adopted, some got closer with children in the extended family, some got involved in pro-bono activities helping children. having a child is NOT a G-d given right. people need to adjust to their circumstances and do the best they can within them, not try to force the world to accommodate their sense of entitlement.

and i resent your psuedo-scientific "killing a baby". in pregnancy terminations, no babies are killed. please be scientific, and supportive of freedom of choice and Constitutional right to privacy in health care matters, in the Choice forum on Democratic Underground. there are plenty of anti-woman, anti-choice sites to chit-chat if you don't support choice and freedom.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Thanks for chiming in here

You know, Choice means just that--the right for a woman to make the choice of having a child or not. No government should ever have the ability to tell a woman that she must carry a child OR that she must have an abortion. That is why I am opposed to the oppressive portions of China's "One Child" policy as much as I am opposed to the US government putting restrictions on abortions. The point is the decision to have a child or not to have a child should be the concern only of the woman and the woman's doctor.

[musette_sf]

18. exactly

and in today's news, i saw a sad story that i think kind of ties in with Mr. Ant's attempts to justify the idea that a womb occupied by an unintended zygote should be forced to be some kind of public transport and donation center for the childless...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/03/31/2008-03-31_military_wives_cashing_in_as_surrogates-2.html

i find this wrong on so many levels. poor kiddos in danger in an illegal war, being paid peanuts, and their poor young wives reduced to renting their bodies to make ends meet, since there are so few decent jobs available any more. :cry:

(and please, no responses on the nobility and altruism of surrogacy. these poor young women deserve better than taking on such a huge risk, out of desperation. all the nobility and altruism in the world will not fix them or bring them back to life if something goes wrong.)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Definitions

I believe that your definition of what is life obviously includes zygotes and fetuses, because you are are saying killing a viable 6 month old child is the same as aborting a six day old cluster of cells. But not all people see it this way. This is the main sticking point on this whole issue, I think. I know of no one who thinks it is all right to end the life of a viable human being, but there is great disagreement about when a developing fetus becomes human.

My point is that people have various reasons to either keep a child or abort it. I just know that I have no business making that decision for them. And I certainly don't want any government to take away my right to choose.

[uppityperson]

16. What do you think about having contraception easily affordably available, and people taught how to

use it? What do you think about Plan B, high dose hormones taken within 72 hours of intercourse which can prevent pregnancy, thus doing away with the need for an abortion? Are you seriously equating killing a 6 month child with aborting a week old cluster of cells? Finally, do you feel you should be able to impose your choice on others? (Because you might chose 1 thing, does that mean everyone should have to do the same?)

[Iris]

17. Sorry, but just because you love your niece doesn't mean you get to decide for all women what they

will do with their bodies.

[BlueFireAnt]

22. I'm not saying I get to decide anything.

All I'm saying is that some people here act like they get their rocks off over abortions. There are other alternatives, if a woman doesn't want her baby. How about not get pregnant? I understand people make mistakes, and if a woman makes a mistake and can't care for her baby that is a choice she has to make. After that she should be aware of the fact that she can get pregnant and use precaution. I'm not pro life, I just don't think abortion should repeatedly be used as a form of birth control.

As far as the comparison between the fetus and a 6 month old baby, that was an intentional stretch. But in a late term abortion, the fetus is viable. THAT is life.

Where does the fathers right to choose come into play? My ex was pregnant with my baby, and she aborted it before I even knew it. Where was my choice. It was my baby, too. What if the mother wants to keep it and the father doesn't? Should her choice be forced on him? Should he have to provide for the child, just because she chose to keep it?

I am pro choice, I CHOOSE not to have an opinion one way or the other. I CHOOSE to see both sides of the argument. I just hate the fact that the father is completely left out of the equation, unless the mother chooses to have the baby.

I didn't want to start a flamefest, so this is the last I'll comment on the subject.

[Iris]

24. No one "gets their rocks off over abortion".

It's disgusting to suggest that those of us who are concerned with keeping this option available to women are "getting our rocks off" over it.

Personally, I'd much rather be fighting the good fight for extended and paid family and medical leave, universal healthcare, and eduction than reproductive matters that are an individual's business and responsiblity.

Furhtermore, if your personal life led you into a situation where a woman made such a decision without your input (which is HER right), that's your problem. How about not FUCKING her so she won't get pregnant?

[BlueFireAnt]

25. I'm not suggesting anyone here is getting there rocks off, but

there are people that do. I believe in a woman's choice. But I don't think it's something to be applauded.

And as far as your snide ass little comment. That is the same argument the fundies use for women. How about not fucking the daddy and you wouldn't get pregnant.

If she had kept the baby, and I didn't want it, should I have been made to pay for it? What if I had chosen not have it?

[Iris]

26. I'm sorry if you were mislead by the name of this forum - CHOICE

- which is about women's choice. Perhaps you can get a forum for "Men's Choice" where you can be better understood.

[BlueFireAnt]

27. I must apologize.

I didn't even look at the forum. I just saw the O.P. on the latest threads. My apologies. I'm still getting used to the blogging thing.

[Iris]

29. Truce

I'd be much more sympathetic to your argument in one of the other forums. Although I'm always, always vehemently pro-choice for the person who actually carries the child, I realize there are a lot of grey areas and some questions that just can't be answered fairly.

[BlueFireAnt]

30. Truce accepted.

I really admire your passion, though. And I appreciate the fact that you admit that the entire issue isn't black or white. Look forward to chatting with you in the future.





BFA

[Iris]

28. dupe

[uppityperson]

31. You do know some women get pregnant after being raped, don't you?

You do know that some women get pressured into having sex, or contraception fails, or "the daddy" lies about contraception. You also do know that sometimes even married women get raped by their husbands, right? You do know all that, don't you?

[Lifetimedem]

34. A vist to the ER

within hours of a rape will remove the risk of a pregnancy.

[WildClarySage]

38. If...

if they have emergency contraception available

if you don't have some wingnut provider refusing to dispense it

and if that rape victim wishes to/has the presence of mind to/is physically able to get to an ER.

[Warpy]

36. Abortion is no longer on demand after the third month

in any state in the country. Your "aborted until the first push" is a straw man. No viable pregnancy is terminated at that point for any reason simply because the risk to the woman's health and life at that point are the same with either still birth or live birth and the viable fetus is also considered at that point.

You're putting an awful lot of strawman arguments from the antichoice far right into this discussion. Second trimester abortions are the usual late term abortions and are generally done for the most tragic of reasons. Doctors don't work in a vacuum and such abortions have to be medically justified, especially those after the fourth month of gestation. Ethics boards do review these procedures.

As for the other strawman of forcing the poor sire to cough up support if the pregnancy is carried to term, he assumed liability for his semen as soon as it left his body. If he didn't want to pay for a child, he should have deposited into a condom instead of a woman's body. He made his choice when he refused to wear one.

[Sadie4629]

9. Third trimester abortions

are rare, thankfully, and MAY (mostly) be done when there are serious birth defects, but CAN LEGALLY be done for any reason--including a woman changing her mind about having a baby.

In fact, the only third trimester abortion I can recall making the news (probably about ten years ago) is that of an Indian-American girl who had been impregnated by her brother. The abortion was done because of the girl's age and circumstances of her pregnancy. There was no evidence that the fetus had any abnormalities.

[uppityperson]

14. You are wrong about "changing her mind about having a baby"

I know this is only wiki, but try reading this for starts. And go to referenced sites too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Here is a direct link to state policies on late term abortions:
http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. thanks for the citations

I was thinking this was the way it was, but didn't have sources, and since I'm supposed to be working, couldn't take the time to find them. I appreciate you taking the time to do so!

[Warpy]

37. It made the news because it wasn't done in the ethical vacuum

that you are implying.

In fact, I can't imagine that it was done on a perfect fetus. At that point, the fetus might be delivered early, but it's considered a premature birth.

My guess is that you didn't get the whole story.

[uppityperson]

15. See links in this post since you seem to be confused.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=6103&mesg_id=6117
post #14.

[Omaha Steve]

20. The new tactic is not that the photos are inaccurate

I can't say what it is until after this weekend when pro choice minds and lawyers kick it around.

I have been a clinic escort in the past. I used to work next door to Dr. Orr's clinic in Omaha. I don't know how ANY man can decide what a woman can do with her body/choice in this matter.

OS

[uppityperson]

21. You know what gets me? Well, 1 thing?

That 80 yr old guy who got kicked out of a mall for wearing a t-shirt with war dead thing written on it, yet these freaks can drive around with bloody dead fetus pictures.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Now you've really piqued my curiosity

I was sure it would have something to do with the pictures. I'll be looking forward to your clarifying post.

What gets me is that many seem to think that the choice made is an easy one for a woman. From the women I know who have faced the choice, it is not. And each case is unique--no two set of circumstances is alike. Those who are anti-abortion live in a fantasy world if they think making the procedure illegal will stop abortions. It won't--it will just make them more dangerous. My husband remembers girls in his high school class who died from botched illegal abortions back in the '60s.

And I also have this notion that if men could get pregnant, abortion and birth control would both be considered inalienable rights.

[Omaha Steve]

32. IF it is going to work.....

US Marshals and the FBI will be enforcing the new tactic on the 12th. Stay tuned.

[Control-Z]

35. Haven't been here in a while

but will stop by soon to hear more. I've given a lot of thought to this matter over the years...